I was wrong about Jim Sterling, and I'm sorry for it

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Lately, with the whole lootbox debacle, I stumbled across one of Jim's videos. YouTube kept popping his videos in my recommended feed all the time and I got annoyed by it. I thought to myself: "What the heck, this whole GamerGate thing has been dead for a long time now (for sensible people) and let's reaffirm my impression of him."

Well, I was fucking wrong. I now have watched way over 50 episodes of his and subscribe to almost all and everything he has to say, except for that one thing of course but come to it, I don't even remember anymore what in specific he said about GamerGate.

This guy is a consumer advocat TotalBiscuit should aspire to. But he isn't stupid about it, he gives the developers and sometimes even publishers a fair shot. Even such controversial topics like easy modes in games get presented in a sensible way by him that I finally see the fucking point and could even see this happening in a Souls game. He also always hammers the point of giving the consumers options. If easy modes would worsen the experience for other gamers, I'm dead certain that he would be against it if it's clear that easy modes reduces the joy more "hardened" gamers (for lack of a better term) in a sensible way like lootboxes and microtransactions do.

I often fantasized about making a YouTube channel or show about things that really grind my gears. Thank god for Jim I don't have to, honestly. Even to the most part, I'd subscribe to his criticism about females depicted in video games, also minorities etc.

Keep in mind that I only know his Jimquisition show and don't know if he completely flip flops when he's writing stuff.

I was fucking wrong and I need somewhere where I can say this. I even really like his humor but this is something more debatable than consumer advocacy, in my opinion. Thanks for listening.

----

I have to say that back then, a lot of my sources for entertainment got replaced. I couldn't enjoy Retsupurae one bit after Slowbeefs comments, for example. I even frequently visited motherfucking Kotaku. This is pathetic, I know. Maybe, I may give Retsupurae another chance, as well as other people. I still think (or know) that they were wrong for the most part and ignorantly outright dismissing the thing back then as every buzz word they could think of made them incredibly less credible and hard to enjoy for me. But that's the way it is and maybe my grudge will lessen in the near future. Thanks to Jim.

Give him a shot. I'd even donate to Patreon if I had the resources and I wouldn't give a flying one for what he's already making there. He really deserves it. Consumer advocates are really your friends, maybe not the person behind them, but certainly their work.

While Jim's stance on issues involving SJWs and censoring games is questionable, his other work is generally high caliber and on the mark. You don't need to agree with everything someone thinks to see common ground and unless you put too much emphasis on internet drama be you should be able to welcome yesterday's adversaries into today's friends.

I stood by him during the turbulent year of 2014, so my continued support of him shouldn't really come as a surprise. Glad to see you gave him another shot.

Jim is pretty-much the only internet personality where I would genuinely be upset if he stopped making content.

Aside from being informative and passionately caring about the industry and it's future, his videos and podcasts are just fun. We should all take time to thank god for him.

jademunky:
Jim is pretty-much the only internet personality where I would genuinely be upset if he stopped making content.

Aside from being informative and genuinely caring about the industry and it's future, his videos and podcasts are just fun. We should all take time to thank god for him.

I put RLM and Dunkey above him in entertainment value, but yeah, hope he never stops doing his thing.

Well I was right about him and I'm not sorry about it, so that evens it out.

Jim occasionally goes SJW like he did recently with Shelob turning into a sexy human woman in the Mordor game. Fortunately, missteps like that video are the exception. I enjoy checking out the Jimquistion videos when I can.

I've been behind him for the majority of his viewpoints, and I'm glad we have a consumer advocate for games such as him. At the very least, it keeps the issues alive, and hopefully staves off the shoddy industry practices from becoming standard operation any time soon. I never agreed with him on the SJW and censorship stuff, because even when he was wrong he wouldn't admit it, but I still follow him quite regularly and appreciate what he does.

I listened to his podcasts religiously for awhile too just for a laugh (the Podquisition with Laura and miracleofsound, and the movie boys once in a while can't remember the real title). But I stopped since I moved from cars to motorcycles for my daily commute due to insane traffic. Also, his sudden outbursts into the microphone are a bit extreme when I can't quickly turn down the volume, to limit places to listen to it even further.

His spin-offs are pretty damn funny, although I couldn't handle the commentocracy one, it's well done 'n all but just isn't my thing. His run-ins with salty, clueless, cashing-in devs has got to be some of the best internet entertainment around too.

KissingSunlight:
Jim occasionally goes SJW like he did recently with Shelob turning into a sexy human woman in the Mordor game. Fortunately, missteps like that video are the exception. I enjoy checking out the Jimquistion videos when I can.

Honestly people retching and whining about videos where he points out that developers are creatively bankrupt when it comes to female characters is probably the biggest reason I love and watch him.

His consumer advocacy is great and always on point. But that fact that we remained "full sjw" in a time when every YouTube gamer was throwing gg even the smallest bone for easy clicks and views shows some great conviction.

KissingSunlight:
Jim occasionally goes SJW like he did recently with Shelob turning into a sexy human woman in the Mordor game. Fortunately, missteps like that video are the exception. I enjoy checking out the Jimquistion videos when I can.

Might've been because that was one of the stupidest things I've seen done with female characters recently. Seriously, we can't have a big giant spider without slapping tits on it if he happens to be female?

OT: Yeah, he's one of the few people online I follow regularly. Some people get tired of him ranting about lootboxes. Personally I say this is something we should never get used to. Same with just about everything he covers.

EDIT: It's fucking absurd how salty people can be over Jim to the point where they get salty over things he didn't actually fucking do.

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:
Jim occasionally goes SJW like he did recently with Shelob turning into a sexy human woman in the Mordor game. Fortunately, missteps like that video are the exception. I enjoy checking out the Jimquistion videos when I can.

Might've been because that was one of the stupidest things I've seen done with female characters recently. Seriously, we can't have a big giant spider without slapping tits on it if he happens to be female?

OT: Yeah, he's one of the few people online I follow regularly. Some people get tired of him ranting about lootboxes. Personally I say this is something we should never get used to. Same with just about everything he covers.

We are going have to agree to disagree. It's a fantasy world full of dragons, wizards, and other sort of mystical creatures. So, why does a shape-shifting spider is too much of a stretch for this setting?

I have had multiple debates with people complaining about women being sexualized. At the end of the day, the people complaining are just being prudes. There are a lot of reasons why Lord of the Rings is a bad story series. A shape-shifting spider is not one of those reasons.

KissingSunlight:

erttheking:

KissingSunlight:
Jim occasionally goes SJW like he did recently with Shelob turning into a sexy human woman in the Mordor game. Fortunately, missteps like that video are the exception. I enjoy checking out the Jimquistion videos when I can.

Might've been because that was one of the stupidest things I've seen done with female characters recently. Seriously, we can't have a big giant spider without slapping tits on it if he happens to be female?

OT: Yeah, he's one of the few people online I follow regularly. Some people get tired of him ranting about lootboxes. Personally I say this is something we should never get used to. Same with just about everything he covers.

We are going have to agree to disagree. It's a fantasy world full of dragons, wizards, and other sort of mystical creatures. So, why does a shape-shifting spider is too much of a stretch for this setting?

I have had multiple debates with people complaining about women being sexualized. At the end of the day, the people complaining are just being prudes. There are a lot of reasons why Lord of the Rings is a bad story series. A shape-shifting spider is not one of those reasons.

It's not that it couldn't happen within the world of Middle Earth. It's that it's boring and cliche. Here we have a unique concept of a giant malevolent being and what do developers say? It's female, needs tits. They have the creativity of a soggy biscuit.

I find it telling that whenever stuff like this comes up, people go straight for the ad hominem attacks and accuse people of being prudes, because it's not like we can just want some variety in our lives. Go after arguments and not the people behind it, it makes it look like you have no faith in your own arguments when you do it the other way around.

erttheking:
snip

It's not ad hominem when it reflects your experience. Whenever the issue of women being sexualized comes up, the first complaint is always "OMG! Tits!" When pressed on how women should be presented in videogames, they have no answers. They are still upset that there is a picture of a woman and she have breasts and hips.

KissingSunlight:
When pressed on how women should be presented in videogames, they have no answers.

its easy to think they have no answers when you dont look for them. your mind is already made up. its galvanized to outside opinions. everyone who doesnt like lazy character design are prudes. nothing is going to change that because you don't care it's just another issue you want to sweep under the rug because it confuses you.

lets be honest here, theres 5 years of threads in this forum about this topic. lets not go around the circle again.

KissingSunlight:

erttheking:
snip

It's not ad hominem when it reflects your experience. Whenever the issue of women being sexualized comes up, the first complaint is always "OMG! Tits!" When pressed on how women should be presented in videogames, they have no answers. They are still upset that there is a picture of a woman and she have breasts and hips.

Uh-no. Still an ad hominem attack because you're attacking the person making the argument instead of the argument. That's the definition of an ad hominem.

Oh for god's sake. An answer for how women should be presented in video games? Here's one. How about variety? Hm? Is that too unreasonable? Tall women, short women, female inhuman monsters (which they would have had in this game if they had just kept to the source material, but I guess doing nothing is too hard for game devs, they'd rather actively mess things up) actual variety instead of the endless barrage of eye candy.

Hate to pop your strawman, but whatever.

Sterling is a great consumer advocate. I did dislike his style initially, when coming here for Yahtzee I found him unfunny in comparison. But kept watching due to the interesting topics and find out over time that he's a decent, self-aware and passionate guy for the subjects I also find appealing. His style of humour is more endearing to me than laugh out loud funny. Yahtzee hasn't been too comedic lately so now I find myself more entertained by Jim these days by far. It's strange how life twists and turns.

I generally don't mind Jim being ''SJW''. He has his opinion, voices it from time to time but its hardly anything like Moviebob who calls anyone who doesn't agree with him a subhuman. Jim does occasionally take it to far though like how he kept repeating the same joke his entire video about Dead or Alive beach volleyball.

Yeah, I consistently enjoy his content, although his reviews were often head-scratchers. Oh hey, here's a glowing review of Persona 5 where the only negative point really talked about was "I wish it was portable" and the score is...8? What? Where did that come from? There were no real negative points brought up, so what brought it down from a 9? *head scratch*

In general, I'm glad he's out there pointing out the crap infesting games like the greedy lootbox BS and going "THIS IS NOT OK!"

KissingSunlight:
It's a fantasy world full of dragons, wizards, and other sort of mystical creatures. So, why does a shape-shifting spider is too much of a stretch for this setting?

I don't particularly care as I have no interest in the game, but what irked me about the shelob thing was:

1) Shelob being a destructive, perpetually hungry spider monster was iconic to the setting. Making her suddenly become sexy-shelob felt weird and out of place. Like if Bowser suddenly turned into an angry looking dude with a spiky hat instead of the iconic turtle dragon we know and love.

2) It felt like a missed opportunity, really. We've seen the "Sexy femme fatale uses her sexuality to try to lead the hero astray and get what she wants" thing a lot. We rarely see "Hero must make unlikely alliance with giant freakin' monster who would be a freakin' hardcore boss battle if it wanted to hurt you".

As for sexy women in games, just in general, I shrug. I have no strong feelings one way or another. I find that sometimes it's silly (Higher tier armors showing off more and more sexy bits, etc) and I can understand why people might want a more grounded approach (My own work tends to lean towards this as, seriously, wearing a chainmail bikini to a battle is suicide and seems silly), but I don't hate it for existing or rail against it.

If it makes you feel better, consider sexy Shelob like this.

It's far easier to manipulate a man as a stunning, big boobed woman, in a loose fitting dress than it is as a hairy eight legged monster. Unless your character has a highly specified fetish of course.

I mean, if the man is led around by his hind brain, I guess.

Kind of a dim view on dudes though.

votemarvel:
If it makes you feel better, consider sexy Shelob like this.

It's far easier to manipulate a man as a stunning, big boobed woman, in a loose fitting dress than it is as a hairy eight legged monster. Unless your character has a highly specified fetish of course.

Talion spends the whole 2 games being manipulated by a dead elf ghost, she really didn't need to try that hard

As to Jim Sterling, I usually agree with his opinions, he usually is insightful and brings up points that I don't notice, he's a good speaker and he is occasionally funny. But I don't watch his videos because the whole suit and red tie and podium thing comes off as too Third Reich for my tastes

altnameJag:
I mean, if the man is led around by his hind brain, I guess.

Kind of a dim view on dudes though.

I'm trying to imagine the mindset that would require this to exist with his existing "personality."

"Grr, growl, I kill all the Uruks because they killed my family, grrr, fuck Golum DAHAHAHAHAHAHA! PWETTY LADY IN DEEP DARK CAVE!"

erttheking:

altnameJag:
I mean, if the man is led around by his hind brain, I guess.

Kind of a dim view on dudes though.

I'm trying to imagine the mindset that would require this to exist with his existing "personality."

"Grr, growl, I kill all the Uruks because they killed my family, grrr, fuck Golum DAHAHAHAHAHAHA! PWETTY LADY IN DEEP DARK CAVE!"

Right? At least take the form of his dead wife or something. Be actually manipulative.

Jim is great when he is talking about the gaming industry, but tends to talk nonsense when he is talking politics. However he is most certainly a good consumer advocate when it comes to amoral industry practices and thus i keep watching his content.

undeadsuitor:

His consumer advocacy is great and always on point. But that fact that we remained "full sjw" in a time when every YouTube gamer was throwing gg even the smallest bone for easy clicks and views shows some great conviction.

so your biggest support of him is for picking the stupid side?

Strazdas:
Jim is great when he is talking about the gaming industry, but tends to talk nonsense when he is talking politics. However he is most certainly a good consumer advocate when it comes to amoral industry practices and thus i keep watching his content.

undeadsuitor:

His consumer advocacy is great and always on point. But that fact that we remained "full sjw" in a time when every YouTube gamer was throwing gg even the smallest bone for easy clicks and views shows some great conviction.

so your biggest support of him is for picking the stupid side?

Nothing says adult discussion like calling the other side "the stupid side"

undeadsuitor:

Strazdas:
Jim is great when he is talking about the gaming industry, but tends to talk nonsense when he is talking politics. However he is most certainly a good consumer advocate when it comes to amoral industry practices and thus i keep watching his content.

undeadsuitor:

His consumer advocacy is great and always on point. But that fact that we remained "full sjw" in a time when every YouTube gamer was throwing gg even the smallest bone for easy clicks and views shows some great conviction.

so your biggest support of him is for picking the stupid side?

Nothing says adult discussion like calling the other side "the stupid side"

well if one keeps making stupid claims and then do stupid acts, at some point you have to assume they are stupid. Either that or they really hate themselves.

Strazdas:

undeadsuitor:

Strazdas:
Jim is great when he is talking about the gaming industry, but tends to talk nonsense when he is talking politics. However he is most certainly a good consumer advocate when it comes to amoral industry practices and thus i keep watching his content.

so your biggest support of him is for picking the stupid side?

Nothing says adult discussion like calling the other side "the stupid side"

well if one keeps making stupid claims and then do stupid acts, at some point you have to assume they are stupid. Either that or they really hate themselves.

You certainly have a good point, but still, there's no reason to assume GG hates themselves.

...You were talking about GG right? I mean, you can't claim they haven't been making stupid claims or performing stupid acts. They tried to boycott a website for the crime of saying Gone Home was good.

I just wanted to express my thanks to you. I was on vacation and couldn't reply. I've read all your comments and am kinda happy about the discussion that went down.

Personally, I have no problem with sexualized women or men in fiction, even in advertisement. And as far as I know, at least on the Jimquisition format, Jim also has no problem per se with that. The problem for him and also me is that it's fucking boring to the point that it becomes insulting because it's the absolute majority.

I think, like with for example the earnings-"disparity" between men and women, that this will resolve itself over time due to, hopefully, creators engaging in experimental story telling as in just making quality characters that happen to be female without them necessarily being a love-interest. That should result in a steady progress towards diverse characters that just happen to be female.

But let's stop kidding ourselves. In the majority of genres, we could celebrate any character that isn't the cookie-cutter eyes-up-chin-down protagonist with a single twist each. But first, I would like the AAA-industry to stop butt-fucking us with a power fist, thank you very much.

Anyway, I don't even think at least in Jimquisition, Jim were an SJW. Only because he expresses the opinion that certain characters are even more bland than the other bland characters, which simply is true and everybody would benefit from writers putting more effort into it, it doesn't make him a propagandistic shill.

But, yes, I'm ignoring a lot of other stuff I know about him like any slight defence of Sarkeesian by him gives me goosebumps. If you really have a problem with him for whatever reason, try to focus on his videos. I for one can't stand yet to listen to his podcast. Aside from me rarely listening to and enjoying podcast in the first place, I feel like he really loses steam if he improvises for more than 3 minutes and becomes really calm and... like James Rolfe in comparison to AVGN (from some years ago), if you know what I mean.

Again, thank you for chiming in. Sorry for resurrecting this rather unnecessarily, but I didn't want to leave this as if I didn't care for all your respondings. Thank you!

erttheking:

Strazdas:

undeadsuitor:

Nothing says adult discussion like calling the other side "the stupid side"

well if one keeps making stupid claims and then do stupid acts, at some point you have to assume they are stupid. Either that or they really hate themselves.

You certainly have a good point, but still, there's no reason to assume GG hates themselves.

...You were talking about GG right? I mean, you can't claim they haven't been making stupid claims or performing stupid acts. They tried to boycott a website for the crime of saying Gone Home was good.

Please, if you are going to attempt to write thinly veiled insults at least follow the conversation. we were talking about sjws.

KissingSunlight:
We are going have to agree to disagree. It's a fantasy world full of dragons, wizards, and other sort of mystical creatures. So, why does a shape-shifting spider is too much of a stretch for this setting?

Clearly you've not read Tolkien. For starters, Shelob's mum was Ungoliant. About the most badass thing in existence that poisoned and drained the Two Trees, even gave Morgoth (Sauron's boss) a run for his money and it took multiple balrogs to chase her off from killing Morgoth to gain the Silmarils.

She was planning to fucking eat them.

Her mum was a gigantic spider, Shelob is a gigantic spider, all the great spiders are incredibly intelligent, ancient, and can speak, but only in a tongue long since unheard by elves and men. There is literally no reason why Shelob would take the form of a human female. I can't think of a single one, she's a gigantic spider that not only eats orcs by the company load but light itself, and she already has a low enough opinion of practically everyone else that lives barring her children.

There is nothing to suggest that she has this power. There is nothing to suggest that she would want to.

It really was a case of creative bankruptcy and tits because ... why not? If people aren't annoyed by the obvious problem there, they should at least be annoyed they actively tried to make Shelob not Shelob.

The idiotic thing is that there are in-universe reasons to explain why the protag might be able to speak with Shelob (and other great spiders). He could have uncovered an Ainur artifact that let him speak the tongues of what are effectively angels. Which would also allow him to hear the Great Spiders and thus communicate with them. But instead of that, hypersexualized woman for literally no reason but creative bankruptcy. It is appealing to the lowest common denominator, and the fact that people defend it only goes so far as they don't mind being thought of as children who will mindlessly buy their games.

If "games are art" it might pay to actually show artistic merit.

Strazdas:

erttheking:

Strazdas:

well if one keeps making stupid claims and then do stupid acts, at some point you have to assume they are stupid. Either that or they really hate themselves.

You certainly have a good point, but still, there's no reason to assume GG hates themselves.

...You were talking about GG right? I mean, you can't claim they haven't been making stupid claims or performing stupid acts. They tried to boycott a website for the crime of saying Gone Home was good.

Please, if you are going to attempt to write thinly veiled insults at least follow the conversation. we were talking about sjws.

...Well then. I have to say, when I was writing my post, I wasn't expecting my implied "yup, that insult perfectly describes the other side perfectly...you were talking about the other side because it fits them perfectly" to be too subtle. When I'm pointing out irony in the future, I'll be more blunt about it.

erttheking:

...Well then. I have to say, when I was writing my post, I wasn't expecting my implied "yup, that insult perfectly describes the other side perfectly...you were talking about the other side because it fits them perfectly" to be too subtle. When I'm pointing out irony in the future, I'll be more blunt about it.

It would only be irony if it was true, right now its just more baseless claims, not that you ever offer anything more substancial.

Strazdas:

erttheking:

...Well then. I have to say, when I was writing my post, I wasn't expecting my implied "yup, that insult perfectly describes the other side perfectly...you were talking about the other side because it fits them perfectly" to be too subtle. When I'm pointing out irony in the future, I'll be more blunt about it.

It would only be irony if it was true, right now its just more baseless claims, not that you ever offer anything more substancial.

I don't see you offering up anything of substance. But hey, let's take a look at what GG considers boycott worthy.

https://gitgud.io/gamergate/gamergateop/blob/master/Boycott-and-Support-Lists/Boycott-List.md

Contributing to Crypt of the Necrodancer. Writing for Cracked. Writing for the Escapist. Being a judge where someone they didn't like won an award. Note they aren't going after websites, but individual people here.

As for gone home, the accusations of corruption because people liked it were fucking insane. The OP of this thread has been deleted, but the comments speak for themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jy59e/more_corruption_at_polygon_gone_home_nepotism/

Can't help but notice a lot of the websites that liked Gone Home are on GG's shit list, as a post further down explains.

I sadly can't find the list that directly claimed they were boycotting a website specifically for good Gone Home coverage and that's driving me mad, but the writing's on the wall.

erttheking:

Strazdas:

erttheking:

...Well then. I have to say, when I was writing my post, I wasn't expecting my implied "yup, that insult perfectly describes the other side perfectly...you were talking about the other side because it fits them perfectly" to be too subtle. When I'm pointing out irony in the future, I'll be more blunt about it.

It would only be irony if it was true, right now its just more baseless claims, not that you ever offer anything more substancial.

I don't see you offering up anything of substance. But hey, let's take a look at what GG considers boycott worthy.

https://gitgud.io/gamergate/gamergateop/blob/master/Boycott-and-Support-Lists/Boycott-List.md

Contributing to Crypt of the Necrodancer. Writing for Cracked. Writing for the Escapist. Being a judge where someone they didn't like won an award. Note they aren't going after websites, but individual people here.

As for gone home, the accusations of corruption because people liked it were fucking insane. The OP of this thread has been deleted, but the comments speak for themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jy59e/more_corruption_at_polygon_gone_home_nepotism/

Can't help but notice a lot of the websites that liked Gone Home are on GG's shit list, as a post further down explains.

I sadly can't find the list that directly claimed they were boycotting a website specifically for good Gone Home coverage and that's driving me mad, but the writing's on the wall.

Your posted list does not claim boycot for contributing to CotN or being a judge on an award, so maybe you should stop making things up. And yes, some people need to be barred from gaming industry for their unethical behaviuor.

The reddit link you posted was deleted, so i dont know what you are trying to say with it. I never cared to look at websites that liked gone home, so i wouldnt know the matching of websites where corrupt and unethical journalists write. Not sure why you are so hung up over one interactive novel though?

Strazdas:

erttheking:

Strazdas:

It would only be irony if it was true, right now its just more baseless claims, not that you ever offer anything more substancial.

I don't see you offering up anything of substance. But hey, let's take a look at what GG considers boycott worthy.

https://gitgud.io/gamergate/gamergateop/blob/master/Boycott-and-Support-Lists/Boycott-List.md

Contributing to Crypt of the Necrodancer. Writing for Cracked. Writing for the Escapist. Being a judge where someone they didn't like won an award. Note they aren't going after websites, but individual people here.

As for gone home, the accusations of corruption because people liked it were fucking insane. The OP of this thread has been deleted, but the comments speak for themselves.

https://www.reddit.com/r/KotakuInAction/comments/2jy59e/more_corruption_at_polygon_gone_home_nepotism/

Can't help but notice a lot of the websites that liked Gone Home are on GG's shit list, as a post further down explains.

I sadly can't find the list that directly claimed they were boycotting a website specifically for good Gone Home coverage and that's driving me mad, but the writing's on the wall.

Your posted list does not claim boycot for contributing to CotN or being a judge on an award, so maybe you should stop making things up. And yes, some people need to be barred from gaming industry for their unethical behaviuor.

The reddit link you posted was deleted, so i dont know what you are trying to say with it. I never cared to look at websites that liked gone home, so i wouldnt know the matching of websites where corrupt and unethical journalists write. Not sure why you are so hung up over one interactive novel though?

...It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him. Under the PR section. Silverstring media. One of their "crimes". Contributed to crypt of the necrodancer. Yeah, that's some unethical behavior. Supporting a good game, I'm so glad GG is protecting me from that. Robin Arnott, under people, near the top, one of his crimes is being a judge when Quinn won an award. Read and don't just assume. It'll take you far in life.

Funny, GG seems to be the one getting their knickers in a bunch over it. I think it's a decent game. GG seems to thinking liking it is proof of corruption. That's what I care about, that asinine logic. The comments in the thread I posted show plenty of that.

Don't reply to me if you're going to deny what's right under your nose again, I've got better things to do than deal with that.

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