Twitch chat comparisons between male and female streamers

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First please forgive me for using a Kotaku Article but, http://kotaku.com/study-shows-twitch-chat-is-very-different-when-women-a-1789302281

This raises an interesting question about gender-scentric behavior within the gamer community. The obvious difference in talk about boobs, and sexual references happen almost completely on female ran streams versus on a male ran channel. This is an obvious and predictable result. But why?

One would argue that teenage boys watching the streams are immature and simply talk shit because they can do it safely behind their keyboards. But what about women and gay viewers on male streams? Why is there no such objectification upon male streamers. I've heard women in my own circle talking about how hot Towelee or Markiplier are, so why are there no sexist comments in chat?

My first theory is this. Female streamers provide ammunition for such comments. Wearing excessive make-up, low cut tops, and even behavior. Now the first counter to that is, "It doesn't mean she is asking for it." And in normal society that argument is correct and valid. A woman dressing nicely, wearing a dress for a night out that reveals cleavage and pretty make-up doesn't automatically mean they are looking seedy attention. It just means they want to look good on a date, or a formal evening of some kind. In the real world, such dress means nothing. However, streaming is all about getting as much attention as possible. Their entire value as a streamer depends on how much attention a person can hog.

In this regard I believe that women use their bodies deliberately for an advantage here. Showing more skin than needed, more make-up than any normal person would wear to play video games in the comfort of their own home. Each and everything done is designed to attract attention, even more so than whatever game they are playing.

I've watched a few streamers over the course of the last week to try and gather some date of my own. Many male streamers gather their audience due to a very small selection of games. Mostly being very good at one game, brings a bulk amount of people looking for tips and tricks and such in that given game. Quin69 for example has built an audience around Diablo 3 builds and runs his channel on given advice to people in chat. In fact his chat for the most part is mature conversation usually based around theory crafting and Q&A. The same thing goes for someone like Trump in Hearthstone, or Domingo regarding League of Legends. So what seems to be the case is that more people almost come for the game. The streamer is a vessel to bounce questions off of, their chat rooms become community boards for said game with added interaction from the streamer.

Female streamers are another matter entirely. Most female streamers seem to bounce around from game to game. Streamers like Pokket, Dexteritybonus aka Dodger, LegendaryLeah, all have one thing in common. Their audience comes for them, not for the game they play. As a result the chatrooms tend to be more about them than anything else. Now I don't mean to justify the behavior of the chatroom and to be fair Pokket and Dexbonus have fairly strong mods that keep a lot of that to the minimum. But regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it, especially when it comes to so called "boobie" streamers. With these female streamers there is an aura of "oh I'm so new at games, give me hints and make sure you tip me too, tee hee". I don't believe this act to be anything like the real persona of these girls, but it is an act none-the-less that fuels both the behavior in the chatroom as well as drives viewer ship.

So what's the solution? Well, there isn't a solution because I don't believe there is a problem. Again these streamers (Both male and female) are fueling their community in anyway they can. If they had a problem with certain behaviors in chat, then they simply ban the offenders. But they don't, because their business revolved around being objectified. These streamers obviously don't have a problem with it, they know what is happening the moment they fire up the webcam. Much in the same way an underwear model is fully aware that there will be people wanking and fantasizing about them once the latest Victoria's Secret magazine comes along.

I think sexism's biggest problem, is having a problem with sexism in the first place. Human nature itself is driven by it's desire to fuck. Male or female, gay or straight, transgender or whatever, everyone wants to fuck. Even asexual's still fuck themselves. Sexism get's it's rage fuel, by simply acknowledging it. By making an issue where none exist.

Female streamer chat rooms show perfect example of that. The streamers very rarely react to obscene comments, and most of the time I wouldn't be surprised if they don't see a lot of it because the pace in which a busy chat channel moves. Especially if they are actually playing a game and only glancing at chat every couple of minutes. The objectifying behavior only becomes and issue if the streamer lets it, and I think most of them know that because otherwise they would take measures to avoid it.

In the words of Trion Lanister, "It can only hurt you if you let it. Wear "nice tits" like a badge of honor and it can never be used to hurt you." Solid advice in an age where everyone's got super sensitive feelings right?

Anyway I'm interested to hear the rage and genuine thoughts that you guys might have about this. And I'll end on this question...If someone actively encourages behavior, is that behavior still wrong when it doesn't harm anyone?

CritialGaming:

This raises an interesting question about gender-scentric behavior within the gamer community. The obvious difference in talk about boobs, and sexual references... Why is there no such objectification..why are there no sexist comments in chat?

Please do not confuse "talk of boobs and sexual references" to "objectification" and "sexist comments". They are not necessarily the same thing.

Houseman:

CritialGaming:

This raises an interesting question about gender-scentric behavior within the gamer community. The obvious difference in talk about boobs, and sexual references... Why is there no such objectification..why are there no sexist comments in chat?

Please do not confuse "talk of boobs and sexual references" to "objectification" and "sexist comments". They are not necessarily the same thing.

True, but comments like, "Nice tits!", "Ur Hawt!", "Show those bewbs!" are.

I'm going to let someone more capable than me to handle the victim-blaiming part of the OP. Instead I'm going to call out this misstatement made by cherry-picking examples.

CritialGaming:

So what seems to be the case is that more people almost come for the game. The streamer is a vessel to bounce questions off of, their chat rooms become community boards for said game with added interaction from the streamer.

That is a generalization, as lots of male streamers get their twitch audience more thanks to their fame than the games they play. Those streamers know that they have to bring something more to the table than just a walkthrough or tactics lessons (or aren't good with the game in the first place). It's their personality and reactions what attracts thousands of people to their streams; not the games or their gaming skills.

CaitSeith:
I'm going to let someone more qualified than me to handle the victim-blaiming part of the OP. Instead I'm going to call out this misstatement made by cherry-picking examples.

How can it be victim blaming if there is no victim. I addressed this in the OP. Streamers foster their communities, for better or worse, the behavior of the chat is often a reflection of what the streamer encourages. Every streamer has the tools available to them to control their chat room, not using those tools is not the fault of the chat but the fault of the streamer.

CritialGaming:

So what seems to be the case is that more people almost come for the game. The streamer is a vessel to bounce questions off of, their chat rooms become community boards for said game with added interaction from the streamer.

That is a generalization, as lots of male streamers get their twitch audience more thanks to their fame than the games they play. Those streamers know that they have to bring something more to the table than just a walkthrough or tactics lessons (or aren't good with the game in the first place). It's their personality and reactions what attracts thousands of people to their streams; not the games or their gaming skills.[/quote]

Is that true? I honestly don't have enough experience to tell for certain. I do know that I have seen popular streamers suffer dramatic hits to their viewership when they aren't playing their "famous" game. HeelsvsBabyface for example just bailed on WoW content, and his viewership took a MASSIVE hit because of it. Which leads me to the belief that your statement isn't really correct. Now audience may return after some time because they do in fact like a streamer despite the game, but the game does have a huge impact. The overall point being that the game being played is more important for male streamers than for female.

CritialGaming:

CaitSeith:

CritialGaming:

So what seems to be the case is that more people almost come for the game. The streamer is a vessel to bounce questions off of, their chat rooms become community boards for said game with added interaction from the streamer.

That is a generalization, as lots of male streamers get their twitch audience more thanks to their fame than the games they play. Those streamers know that they have to bring something more to the table than just a walkthrough or tactics lessons (or aren't good with the game in the first place). It's their personality and reactions what attracts thousands of people to their streams; not the games or their gaming skills.

Is that true? I honestly don't have enough experience to tell for certain. I do know that I have seen popular streamers suffer dramatic hits to their viewership when they aren't playing their "famous" game. HeelsvsBabyface for example just bailed on WoW content, and his viewership took a MASSIVE hit because of it. Which leads me to the belief that your statement isn't really correct. Now audience may return after some time because they do in fact like a streamer despite the game, but the game does have a huge impact. The overall point being that the game being played is more important for male streamers than for female.

Pretty sure it's true for a relevant number of viewers. I'm not saying that's always the case and that there aren't lots of viewers that care more for the games than the streamers. What I'm saying is that the opposite happens often enough and attracts enough viewers to be more than just the exception. Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to back that up.

CaitSeith:

Pretty sure it's true for a relevant number of viewers. I'm not saying that's always the case and that there aren't lots of viewers that care more for the games than the streamers. What I'm saying is that the opposite happens often enough and attracts enough viewers to be more than just the exception. Unfortunately, I don't have the numbers to back that up.

To be fair, I also don't have the numbers to deny that either. But I do have some first hand experience from streamers I used to watch. And I have seen their numbers fall so badly after switching games that they are back to the "normal" game the next day. I've read articles on streamers and how they sometimes hate their jobs because they are sick of the same game day in and day out. Very few streamers built themselves on being a variety streamer, where they can play whatever they want and the audience still comes.

I never watch female-led streams in case they talk about periods and my dick falls off.

Actually, part of that was true; I never watch streams, really don't get the appeal.

CritialGaming:
Wear "nice tits" like a badge of honor and it can never be used to hurt you." Solid advice in an age where everyone's got super sensitive feelings right?

I'm still working on wearing 'You bald four-eyed cunt' like a badge of honour. I mean, I'm sure they respect all the years I spent becoming a bald, four-eyed cunt and are agog at how early in life I've managed to overcome the barriers that usually face people trying to attain such heady heights.

Baffle2:

CritialGaming:
Wear "nice tits" like a badge of honor and it can never be used to hurt you." Solid advice in an age where everyone's got super sensitive feelings right?

I'm still working on wearing 'You bald four-eyed cunt' like a badge of honour. I mean, I'm sure they respect all the years I spent becoming a bald, four-eyed cunt and are agog at how early in life I've managed to overcome the barriers that usually face people trying to attain such heady heights.

Way to go you bald four-eyed cunt! See? With a little hard work, and stick to your guns, even a BFEC like you can attain greatness :) *cheers*

CritialGaming:

Way to go you bald four-eyed cunt! See? With a little hard work, and stick to your guns, even a BFEC like you can attain greatness :) *cheers*

Even a bald four-eyed cunt can achieve being a bald four-eyed cunt? I'd be amazed if we weren't at the front of the queue.

Baffle2:

CritialGaming:

Way to go you bald four-eyed cunt! See? With a little hard work, and stick to your guns, even a BFEC like you can attain greatness :) *cheers*

Even a bald four-eyed cunt can achieve being a bald four-eyed cunt? I'd be amazed if we weren't at the front of the queue.

I'm amazed that there would even be a queue.

This thread is fun. Though nobody has really followed topic.

CritialGaming:

Though nobody has really followed topic.

I can't, I'm not wearing my second eyes.

Baffle2:

CritialGaming:

Though nobody has really followed topic.

I can't, I'm not wearing my second eyes.

Ahh well, I hope you don't intend to drive anywhere today.

CritialGaming:

Ahh well, I hope you don't intend to drive anywhere today.

Me too, I'm quite drunk.

Brilliant. Never has so many words been able to be boiled down to "they're asking for it."

Because this shit never shows up when they aren't asking for it, like anytime a woman is on camera at all, during charity streams and the like.

Nope, not a thing, and people should quit talking about it because it's completely normal and anyone who complains about it being completely normal are just trying to make gamers looks bad.

EDIT: You know what really grinds my gears about this argument? It's blatantly misandric assumptions about men. How we're naturally reduced to sexist douchebags at the mere sight of a fashionable lady who knows how to not appear like a slob on camera.

Give men some fucking credit, Dworkin.

altnameJag:

EDIT: You know what really grinds my gears about this argument? It's blatantly misandric assumptions about men. How we're naturally reduced to sexist douchebags at the mere sight of a fashionable lady who knows how to not appear like a slob on camera.

Give men some fucking credit, Dworkin.

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

Feminists aren't the ones who degrade and hold back men. We do that to each other more than well enough.

altnameJag:

Because this shit never shows up when they aren't asking for it, like anytime a woman is on camera at all, during charity streams and the like.

Nope, not a thing,

Even if it is a thing that happens, what does that have to do with his point about the differences between male and female streamers, and the things that they do to establish, maintain, and grow their viewers?

Houseman:

altnameJag:

Because this shit never shows up when they aren't asking for it, like anytime a woman is on camera at all, during charity streams and the like.

Nope, not a thing,

Even if it is a thing that happens, what does that have to do with his point about the differences between male and female streamers, and the things that they do to establish, maintain, and grow their viewers?

You mean, how they're asking for it, even the ones who don't like it and have strong moderation against it, because they don't dress like Victorian prudes and know how to use camera makeup?

It's bullshit, anecdotal, based on assumptions about "what they're really trying to do", and is blatant ass-covering. His argument assumes men just can't help themselves around the most basic of standards, which is incredibly misandric.

altnameJag:
You mean, how they're asking for it, even the ones who don't like it and have strong moderation against it, because they don't dress like Victorian prudes and know how to use camera makeup?

No, that is not what I mean. I mean exactly what I said: "Even if it is a thing that happens, what does that have to do with his point about the differences between male and female streamers, and the things that they do to establish, maintain, and grow their viewers?"

I'll just wait until you respond to that question before engaging in a discussion, because it looks like what you're trying to discuss is not the issue here.

Houseman:

altnameJag:
You mean, how they're asking for it, even the ones who don't like it and have strong moderation against it, because they don't dress like Victorian prudes and know how to use camera makeup?

No, that is not what I mean. I mean exactly what I said: "Even if it is a thing that happens, what does that have to do with his point about the differences between male and female streamers, and the things that they do to establish, maintain, and grow their viewers?"

I'll just wait until you respond to that question before engaging in a discussion, because it looks like what you're trying to discuss is not the issue here.

So this then:
"Female streamers are another matter entirely. Most female streamers seem to bounce around from game to game. Streamers like Pokket, Dexteritybonus aka Dodger, LegendaryLeah, all have one thing in common. Their audience comes for them, not for the game they play. As a result the chatrooms tend to be more about them than anything else. Now I don't mean to justify the behavior of the chatroom and to be fair Pokket and Dexbonus have fairly strong mods that keep a lot of that to the minimum. But regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it, especially when it comes to so called "boobie" streamers. With these female streamers there is an aura of "oh I'm so new at games, give me hints and make sure you tip me too, tee hee". I don't believe this act to be anything like the real persona of these girls, but it is an act none-the-less that fuels both the behavior in the chatroom as well as drives viewer ship."

Where regardless of the mods that try and keep that shit to a minimum, and not trying to defend anything, but they're totes asking for it? Because of "auras" or some shit, not anything they actually do. It's bullshit not backed by anything, that assumes male gamers will latch onto any lady that seems like a newb because we just can't fucking help ourselves.

"Seems to be", "auras", audience is there just for them, which is apparently different than male gamers "as far as they can tell". Add in the "sexism's biggest problem is that sexism isn't a problem" direct quote from the conclusion, and how can I assume anything but "male gamers are sexist normally". It's the same as the unspoken assumption behind just about every bit of rape apologia: "You have to dress and act a certain way or men will rape you, because men just can't help it."

altnameJag:
So this then:
"Female streamers are another matter entirely. Most female streamers seem to bounce around from game to game. Streamers like Pokket, Dexteritybonus aka Dodger, LegendaryLeah, all have one thing in common. Their audience comes for them, not for the game they play. As a result the chatrooms tend to be more about them than anything else. Now I don't mean to justify the behavior of the chatroom and to be fair Pokket and Dexbonus have fairly strong mods that keep a lot of that to the minimum. But regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it, especially when it comes to so called "boobie" streamers. With these female streamers there is an aura of "oh I'm so new at games, give me hints and make sure you tip me too, tee hee". I don't believe this act to be anything like the real persona of these girls, but it is an act none-the-less that fuels both the behavior in the chatroom as well as drives viewer ship."

Where regardless of the mods that try and keep that shit to a minimum, and not trying to defend anything, but they're totes asking for it? Because of "auras" or some shit, not anything they actually do.

What some of them "actually do" is the issue here. Just put "LegendaryLeah" into Google Images and see what you get back. Whose point do these images reinforce, yours, or OP's?

To quote the OP:

Female streamers provide ammunition for such comments. Wearing excessive make-up, low cut tops, and even behavior... streaming is all about getting as much attention as possible. Their entire value as a streamer depends on how much attention a person can hog.

In this regard I believe that women use their bodies deliberately for an advantage here. Showing more skin than needed, more make-up than any normal person would wear to play video games in the comfort of their own home. Each and everything done is designed to attract attention, even more so than whatever game they are playing.

Do you deny that this is true?

Add in the "sexism's biggest problem is that sexism isn't a problem" direct quote from the conclusion

Except that isn't a direct quote. I'm not sure what you're doing here.

Houseman:

altnameJag:
So this then:
"Female streamers are another matter entirely. Most female streamers seem to bounce around from game to game. Streamers like Pokket, Dexteritybonus aka Dodger, LegendaryLeah, all have one thing in common. Their audience comes for them, not for the game they play. As a result the chatrooms tend to be more about them than anything else. Now I don't mean to justify the behavior of the chatroom and to be fair Pokket and Dexbonus have fairly strong mods that keep a lot of that to the minimum. But regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it, especially when it comes to so called "boobie" streamers. With these female streamers there is an aura of "oh I'm so new at games, give me hints and make sure you tip me too, tee hee". I don't believe this act to be anything like the real persona of these girls, but it is an act none-the-less that fuels both the behavior in the chatroom as well as drives viewer ship."

Where regardless of the mods that try and keep that shit to a minimum, and not trying to defend anything, but they're totes asking for it? Because of "auras" or some shit, not anything they actually do.

What some of them "actually do" is the issue here. Just put "LegendaryLeah" into Google Images and see what you get back. Whose point do these images reinforce, yours, or OP's?

Unless gamers behind dickbags is limited to "LegendaryLeah"'s stream, that doesn't prove what you think it does.

To quote the OP:

Female streamers provide ammunition for such comments. Wearing excessive make-up, low cut tops, and even behavior... streaming is all about getting as much attention as possible. Their entire value as a streamer depends on how much attention a person can hog.

In this regard I believe that women use their bodies deliberately for an advantage here. Showing more skin than needed, more make-up than any normal person would wear to play video games in the comfort of their own home. Each and everything done is designed to attract attention, even more so than whatever game they are playing.

Do you deny that this is true?

Yeah, yeah, "they're asking for it" by not being slobs. Us poor men just can't help being sexist dickbags. The misandry of it all.

Add in the "sexism's biggest problem is that sexism isn't a problem" direct quote from the conclusion

Except that isn't a direct quote. I'm not sure what you're doing here.

I think sexism's biggest problem, is having a problem with sexism in the first place. Human nature itself is driven by it's desire to fuck. Male or female, gay or straight, transgender or whatever, everyone wants to fuck. Even asexual's still fuck themselves. Sexism get's it's rage fuel, by simply acknowledging it. By making an issue where none exist.

You're right, I got the wording slightly wrong. I mean, it's just human nature that men are sexist dickbags online. Good show.

CritialGaming:

Female streamer chat rooms show perfect example of that. The streamers very rarely react to obscene comments, and most of the time I wouldn't be surprised if they don't see a lot of it because the pace in which a busy chat channel moves. Especially if they are actually playing a game and only glancing at chat every couple of minutes. The objectifying behavior only becomes and issue if the streamer lets it, and I think most of them know that because otherwise they would take measures to avoid it.

Ever think they may not comment about it because they don't want to spark another round of "this is normal on the Internet, how dare men be held to standards, you're asking for it, and it's censorship if you ban us"?

Seen that Internet kerfluffle more than once. This thread is three of them.

Wait, so, bitches be asking for it, boys will be boys, there's no problem shutup?

What a load of bollocks.
Dudes are responsible for their actions just like everyone else, I'm sorry to see you have such a poor opinion of men.

Surprisingly, I doubt your "the problem with sexism is that people have a problem with sexism" thing will catch on. So.. yeah.... you sure said that.

Fucking hell this forum is weird. Like... yikes.

EDIT: Honestly reading it again this thread would be funny if it weren't so sad. "Showing more skin than needed" (how much skin ya need?) "more make-up than any normal person would wear to play video games in the comfort of their own home" (hang on I'm gonna play some video games let me just take my makeup off???) "Each and everything done is designed to attract attention" (on TWITCH??? Perish the thought).

Oh you guys.

I think Men get a bad rap cause testosterone naturally makes a person more sexually aggressive. Its why porn is more popular among men. I think its unfair to hate on men for wanting sex.

That said, its also not an excuse to be a creep. But women can be creeps too, just its not always in the same way as men might, so it doesnt get shamed like men get it.

And most all streamers are popular cause of who they are, not what they play. Sure, people may come for the game, but they only stay if they like the people.

I like Dodger, and Cryaotic, and Jesse Cox cause of their personalities, not the games they play. Its why I put up with all the Blizzard stuff, cause fuck WoW and Hearthstone, but I like them, so I deal with it.

As for objectification of male streamers, well, one, straight often younger men are more common stream viewers. There are less women, and far less gay men watching. Im sure plenty of gay men fetishize plenty of male streamers, there are just less of them so its less known.

But I mean, there IS drawn porn of Jesse Cox and TotalBiscuit having sex, as they have pointed out themselves. And Game Grumps (though not usually streamers) have a name for their own fetishized community, called PolyGrumps which they joke about regularly.

Edit: To be clear, dont be a creep, its not ok, no matter what sex you are, or what sex the streamer is. Blaming all female streamers for being sexualized is not ok. Caring about your appearance isnt justification for being objectified.

Maybe we should look at it on a person to person basis? Im sure plenty of female streamers take advantage of their looks, but plenty of streamers of all sexes take advantage in many ways of their audience, and its not ok.

altnameJag:
Unless gamers behind dickbags is limited to "LegendaryLeah"'s stream, that doesn't prove what you think it does.

I didn't say that it proved anything. I merely asked "Whose point do these images reinforce, yours, or OP's?"

My question remains unanswered.

Yeah, yeah, "they're asking for it" by not being slobs. Us poor men just can't help being sexist dickbags. The misandry of it all.

That doesn't answer my question. Does this mean you concede the point?

You're right, I got the wording slightly wrong. I mean, it's just human nature that men are sexist dickbags online. Good show.

You sure are insulting men a lot, if only sarcastically. It seems to me, though, that you're putting a lot of words in other people's mouths, and you seem to be avoiding the actual issue.

I don't think you're approaching this in good faith, an no longer wish to discuss this with you.

Of course the answer can't be 'because men are socialized to act this way'. Women must be asking for it, because they wear make up.

There was a BBC article thing about something like this the other day. I haven't actually watched it because I only watch videos on the bog and the toilet is broken at the moment, but here it is:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38030773

Honestly this just reinforces how much women can. not. win. In these situations. If you're going to do any public presentations, you have to look your best. Looking your best for women is puttong on makeup. But if women were makeup they're sluts who deserve sexist comments.

Houseman:

That doesn't answer my question. Does this mean you concede the point?

I can never really tell what your point is to be honest. I'm not sure if there's a language barrier (and please don't be offended by that) but you don't seem to actually make a point in clear language. I think if you struggle to get your point of view across it can help to use bullet points and direct statements rather than questions. For example, rather than:

'What if my name were Tim?'

try:

'My name is Tim.'

undeadsuitor:
Honestly this just reinforces how much women can. not. win. In these situations. If you're going to do any public presentations, you have to look your best. Looking your best for women is puttong on makeup. But if women were makeup they're sluts who deserve sexist comments.

Is that the sole thing that's mentioned in the OP? Makeup? If not, then aren't you misrepresenting the argument? Men wear makeup on stage too, you know.

Houseman:

undeadsuitor:
Honestly this just reinforces how much women can. not. win. In these situations. If you're going to do any public presentations, you have to look your best. Looking your best for women is puttong on makeup. But if women were makeup they're sluts who deserve sexist comments.

Is that the sole thing that's mentioned in the OP? Makeup? If not, then aren't you misrepresenting the argument? Men wear makeup on stage too, you know.

It's both mentioned in the op and a running theme with female presenters and women in general. So yeah, it's part of the argument. It doesn't matter what men wear, because men aren't criticized for what they look like.

undeadsuitor:

It's both mentioned in the op and a running theme with female presenters and women in general. So yeah, it's part of the argument.

I didn't ask if it was "part" of the argument. I asked if that was the sole thing mentioned in the OP, and if you were misrepresenting the argument.

Houseman:

undeadsuitor:

It's both mentioned in the op and a running theme with female presenters and women in general. So yeah, it's part of the argument.

I didn't ask if it was "part" of the argument. I asked if that was the sole thing mentioned in the OP, and if you were misrepresenting the argument.

I never said it was the sole part, it's simply the part I wanted to touch on. Im not obligated to talk about the entire op, just like youre not obligated to reply to my entire post since you deleted half of it. Sorry I'm not reaching the goal posts you set for me.

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