Twitch chat comparisons between male and female streamers

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CritialGaming:

altnameJag:
snip

Male streamers also have mods to control chat. The chat being moderated might have a different flavor, but it still needs to be controlled to be clean.

So, are you deliberately missing the point or what?

EDIT:

Also my whole argument was on the basis of the behavior being encouraged. Never once have I fought for unencouraged chat comments. The whole basis of this thread was a disscussion regarding the corilation behind streamer behavior and encouragement towards their audience and how that audience then reacts.

Mate, you were saying female streamers in general were at fault for getting these comments fostering these communities. You use Pokket and Dexteritybonus as examples for how streams "being about them" and having a sense of "asking for it" despite the moderation of their chat. That's the definition of "unencouraged chat comments" and you still spent your entire OP justifying them and saying how they're not bad, actually.

altnameJag:
snip

Also I want to point out that among the streamers that encourage and promote this behavior through their actions, when you foster that behavior you cannot claim it sexist on somedays but not others. You can encourage people to do something and then expect it to be turned on and off like an invisible switch. Embrace the audience you create, but don't chastise them because you "aren't feeling it" that day.

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

altnameJag:
snip

Male streamers also have mods to control chat. The chat being moderated might have a different flavor, but it still needs to be controlled to be clean.

So, are you deliberately missing the point or what?

No i didn't miss the point. Are you trying to tell me that male streamers aren't subject to abuse via their chats, because they are and often times it is far more harsh than anything the female streamers are subjected too. While the abuse may not be sexual in nature, it doesn't subtract from the fact that it happens and it needs to be moderated.

The verbal abuse comes in many different flavors, but none of them taste very good.

Perfect example is how often TotalBiscuit has had to outright disable his chat and comment sections because he couldn't handle the abuse people threw at him.

Houseman:

CaitSeith:

You know what is normal for theft and fraud? They are punished by law. Men acting like shit heads? Not even close. That equivalence doesn't hold water once you compare the consequences for the perpetrators.

Well yeah, if you focus exclusively on the differences and ignore the similarities, it seems completely different doesn't it?

And by focusing exclusively on the similarities and ignoring the differences, it seems totally the same, doesn't it?

It goes both ways, and that's hilarious. You already pointed out the former, and me the later. So I'll put a similarity and a difference: there is no fail-proof to protect ourselves from any of those things; but the difference is that most of theft and fraud protection suggestions come from a pragmatic point of view, while the other is mostly full of unpragmatic theories and unfunded opinions.

CritialGaming:
[
No i didn't miss the point. Are you trying to tell me that male streamers aren't subject to abuse via their chats, because they are and often times it is far more harsh than anything the female streamers are subjected too. While the abuse may not be sexual in nature, it doesn't subtract from the fact that it happens and it needs to be moderated.

The verbal abuse comes in many different flavors, but none of them taste very good.

Perfect example is how often TotalBiscuit has had to outright disable his chat and comment sections because he couldn't handle the abuse people threw at him.

Man, considering nothing in the kotaku article you posted, the study itself, nor your or anybody else's arguments in this thread so far has had anything to do with trying to compare the type of abuse men get over what women get.

Put the goalposts down. You don't get to start moving those a hundred posts in.

CaitSeith:

And by focusing exclusively on the similarities and ignoring the differences, it seems totally the same, doesn't it?

The point of an analogy is to demonstrate a truth based on the similarities of two different things. The goal is not to make something sound "totally the same".

while the other is mostly full of unpragmatic theories and unfunded opinions.

Nobody knows if they're pragmatic or not because the suggestions are shouted down with cries of "victim blaming" and are never actually tried.

CritialGaming:

No i didn't miss the point. Are you trying to tell me that male streamers aren't subject to abuse via their chats, because they are and often times it is far more harsh than anything the female streamers are subjected too. While the abuse may not be sexual in nature, it doesn't subtract from the fact that it happens and it needs to be moderated.

The verbal abuse comes in many different flavors, but none of them taste very good.

Perfect example is how often TotalBiscuit has had to outright disable his chat and comment sections because he couldn't handle the abuse people threw at him.

Rebuttal #2, Electric Boogaloo:
And yet, I don't see the three paragraph essay about how a lot of male streamers encourage a free-speech positive environment in their chat for clicks and the like, where verbal abuse is the order of the day because that's the environment they foster, and how it isn't actually a bad thing due to just being human nature.

Funny, that.

Houseman:

CaitSeith:

And by focusing exclusively on the similarities and ignoring the differences, it seems totally the same, doesn't it?

The point of an analogy is to demonstrate a truth based on the similarities of two different things. The goal is not to make something sound "totally the same".

Houseman:

Smithnikov:

Bad analogy, bud.

I wasn't making an analogy, I was asking a question. This question remains unanswered.

...no comments.

Houseman:

Looks like everyone who has argued against me is confused as to the definition of words crucial to this debate.

Or maybe everyone who has argued against you are correct, and maybe you are the one who is confused.

CaitSeith:

...no comments.

You're right, I mixed up what we were talking about with the analogy most recently made by OP about tacos.

So now that I'm back on track, here's the appropriate response:

CaitSeith:

And by focusing exclusively on the similarities and ignoring the differences, it seems totally the same, doesn't it?

The "goal" is not for them to be the same. The "goal" is for someone to actually answer the question.

It goes both ways, and that's hilarious. You already pointed out the former, and me the later. So I'll put a similarity and a difference: there is no fail-proof to protect ourselves from any of those things; but the difference is that most of theft and fraud protection suggestions come from a pragmatic point of view, while the other is mostly full of unpragmatic theories and unfunded opinions.

Nobody knows if they're pragmatic or not because the suggestions are shouted down with cries of "victim blaming" and are never actually tried.

This seems to be a commonly-used anti-discussion tactic: Shame everybody into silence by accusing them of being in transgression of some ethical law. Nobody can find fault in your views if everybody is silent.

CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:
Honestly this just reinforces how much women can. not. win. In these situations. If you're going to do any public presentations, you have to look your best. Looking your best for women is puttong on makeup. But if women were makeup they're sluts who deserve sexist comments.

There is a difference between professional environment make-up.

For example - https://www.jdate.com/jmag/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/JDate-Dating-Female-Lawyer-e1444781289510.jpg

Then there is Sexuallized make-up - https://www.instagram.com/p/BMmW2NZjddm/?taken-by=pokket_official

You can see the difference. While the first picture is perfectly fine for looking good for a camera, the streamer goes the second route.

I'm not using the "asking for it" argument because nobody is ever asking for said behavior. However in the case of streamers, they "foster" these communities. In their behavior, in their dress, in their personalities, they foster this kind of behavior. It is the reason why you see it so often in certain streamer's chatrooms.

If it isn't fostering, go watch LegendaryLeah stream for an hour. Then go watch Pokket stream for an hour. You will see the difference in the communities that they have created for themselves.

One thing to point out with a streamer, is they create their own audience. Everything from their own image, to their community, they create and cultivate all of it. I'm not saying that certain dirty behaviors are okay. What I am saying is that when such behavior is actively encouraged in its forum, then it should not be shamed or labeled in a negative light.

Then there is Sexuallized make-up - https://www.instagram.com/p/BMmW2NZjddm/?taken-by=pokket_official

Red lipstick and some eyeliner is now whore facepaint?

image

I at least expected something like this. Come on man

But in regards to the rest of your post

how about

we

hold men responsible for their actions?

?

maybe?

undeadsuitor:

CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:
Honestly this just reinforces how much women can. not. win. In these situations. If you're going to do any public presentations, you have to look your best. Looking your best for women is puttong on makeup. But if women were makeup they're sluts who deserve sexist comments.

There is a difference between professional environment make-up.

For example - https://www.jdate.com/jmag/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/JDate-Dating-Female-Lawyer-e1444781289510.jpg

Then there is Sexuallized make-up - https://www.instagram.com/p/BMmW2NZjddm/?taken-by=pokket_official

You can see the difference. While the first picture is perfectly fine for looking good for a camera, the streamer goes the second route.

I'm not using the "asking for it" argument because nobody is ever asking for said behavior. However in the case of streamers, they "foster" these communities. In their behavior, in their dress, in their personalities, they foster this kind of behavior. It is the reason why you see it so often in certain streamer's chatrooms.

If it isn't fostering, go watch LegendaryLeah stream for an hour. Then go watch Pokket stream for an hour. You will see the difference in the communities that they have created for themselves.

One thing to point out with a streamer, is they create their own audience. Everything from their own image, to their community, they create and cultivate all of it. I'm not saying that certain dirty behaviors are okay. What I am saying is that when such behavior is actively encouraged in its forum, then it should not be shamed or labeled in a negative light.

Then there is Sexuallized make-up - https://www.instagram.com/p/BMmW2NZjddm/?taken-by=pokket_official

Red lipstick and some eyeliner is now whore facepaint?

image

I at least expected something like this. Come on man

But in regards to the rest of your post

how about

we

hold men responsible for their actions?

?

maybe?

It's almost as if a large number of people who participate in this sexual harassment and/or defend it don't have a ton of experience with women in the real world...

I truly am curious when personal responsibility stopped being a thing for men because, apparently, such actions are almost expected to be taken. I must have missed that memo in my man-laws handbook; oh the downsides of being a pre-internet 2.0 90s kid.

Anyone have an updated copy for me?

Avnger:

undeadsuitor:

But in regards to the rest of your post

how about

we

hold men responsible for their actions?

?

maybe?

It's almost as if a large number of people who participate in this sexual harassment and/or defend it don't have a ton of experience with women in the real world...

I truly am curious when personal responsibility stopped being a thing for men because, apparently, such actions are almost expected to be taken. I must have missed that memo in my man-laws handbook; oh the downsides of being a pre-internet 2.0 90s kid.

Anyone have an updated copy for me?

Yeah I'm gonna have to echo this. This entire thread is fucking bananas.
You have people literally trying to present "She was wearing RED LIPSTICK!" as some kind of boner-snake charming that automatically renders men into pigs. I kinda think a little bit more of men than that.

This shit will not fly. We as a community are responsible for not making gaming a shitty place to be for women. Men are responsible for the things they say to women online. This is not confusing.

And I get that a lot of guys who play games don't have a lot of experience dealing with women but I would suggest they go outside? (Which is probably the only time I would ever argue for the "go outside more" thing). Women are literally half of the world. If there are dudes who can't control being an asshole because of lipstick, I think they need some kind of help.

Phasmal:
Men are responsible for the things they say to women online. This is not confusing.

(I took the liberty of bolding the most salient part of this quote.)

Quite, but evidently it is. Which is why we have a lot of people (on this thread, for instance) casting collective blame, when there's no real data on whether any of the people saying those things qualify as "men", and urging theatrical denunciations of abstractions such as "gaming and gaming culture". The important thing is to be making the right noise, I guess.

As for actual solutions for this nuisance behavior that is no doubt unpleasant for many, there are no simple ones that do not come with enormous compromises on the nature of the medium. This is obviously something that has been grievously neglected by the apostles of the Internet throughout, and now we're stuck with the folly of a series of increasingly vicious hunts for the "one true" scapegoat that is keeping us from the false promises of a Utopian "Noosphere".

StatusNil:

As for actual solutions for this nuisance behavior that is no doubt unpleasant for many, there are no simple ones

You could just stop typing rude words to pretty women on the internet. That'd probably solve it.

StatusNil:

As for actual solutions for this nuisance behavior that is no doubt unpleasant for many, there are no simple ones that do not come with enormous compromises on the nature of the medium.

If telling sexist little assholes that they're being sexist little assholes is going to cause "enourmous compromises on the nature of the medium", what the hell does that say about the nature of the medium? Sheesh.

Side note: while I could couch my terms in more flowerly, less offensive way, I have deliberately decided to not be PC about this. Because being PC is bad or some such.

StatusNil:

Phasmal:
Men are responsible for the things they say to women online. This is not confusing.

(I took the liberty of bolding the most salient part of this quote.)

Quite, but evidently it is. Which is why we have a lot of people (on this thread, for instance) casting collective blame, when there's no real data on whether any of the people saying those things qualify as "men", and urging theatrical denunciations of abstractions such as "gaming and gaming culture". The important thing is to be making the right noise, I guess.

As for actual solutions for this nuisance behavior that is no doubt unpleasant for many, there are no simple ones that do not come with enormous compromises on the nature of the medium. This is obviously something that has been grievously neglected by the apostles of the Internet throughout, and now we're stuck with the folly of a series of increasingly vicious hunts for the "one true" scapegoat that is keeping us from the false promises of a Utopian "Noosphere".

There are pretty simple solutions to this behaviour, which is to not make threads excusing it because something something lipstick they're just boys something something. To make it clear what is not acceptable behaviour, not ignoring it.

I'm sorry if you feel that is "making the right noise", but I feel like it's better than this parade of weak excuses that are frankly insulting to everybody involved.

Of course, judging from how you're posting in this thread, I fully expect to agree to disagree on this.

altnameJag:
If telling sexist little assholes that they're being sexist little assholes is going to cause "enourmous compromises on the nature of the medium", what the hell does that say about the nature of the medium? Sheesh.

Side note: while I could couch my terms in more flowerly, less offensive way, I have deliberately decided to not be PC about this. Because being PC is bad or some such.

"Solutions", I said "solutions". Telling off stupid kids might make you feel really righteous, but is it really likely to make them less stupid, or just giving them a substitute for positive attention that encourages repeat performance? That's hardly a solution, at least to the problem in question. What I was saying is that would either require a serious improvement in parenting all around, or interfering with the nature of what is a universally distributed, anonymous medium. Furthermore, I believe many responses involved castigating "men" as a collective, rather than the actual culprits. Or indeed "gaming", as if that activity had some inherent connection to this issue, beyond the circumstantial one given in the particular case the OP was referring to.

Congrats on your insight into the futility of "PC", but I was under the impression that labeling people by their alleged violation thereof, reducing them to various body parts and mocking their perceived infantility was part of routine "PC" discourse. It's certainly the conclusion one comes to from reading the commentary of outspoken adherents.

Phasmal:

There are pretty simple solutions to this behaviour, which is to not make threads excusing it because something something lipstick they're just boys something something. To make it clear what is not acceptable behaviour, not ignoring it.

I'm sorry if you feel that is "making the right noise", but I feel like it's better than this parade of weak excuses that are frankly insulting to everybody involved.

Of course, judging from how you're posting in this thread, I fully expect to agree to disagree on this.

As it turns out, you're correct. I don't believe not making such threads, while simple enough, is going to have much of a positive impact. And neither is pretending that it's just a matter of being disdainful enough of "men" and "gamers", the majority of whom surely have nothing whatsoever to do with what your complaint is, and are not in a position to make it stop. That's just poisoning the well.

StatusNil:

Phasmal:

There are pretty simple solutions to this behaviour, which is to not make threads excusing it because something something lipstick they're just boys something something. To make it clear what is not acceptable behaviour, not ignoring it.

I'm sorry if you feel that is "making the right noise", but I feel like it's better than this parade of weak excuses that are frankly insulting to everybody involved.

Of course, judging from how you're posting in this thread, I fully expect to agree to disagree on this.

As it turns out, you're correct. I don't believe not making such threads, while simple enough, is going to have much of a positive impact. And neither is pretending that it's just a matter of being disdainful enough of "men" and "gamers", the majority of whom surely have nothing whatsoever to do with what your complaint is, and are not in a position to make it stop. That's just poisoning the well.

Am I being disdainful towards men and gamers? Please explain. Last time I checked I was generally quite fond of men and certainly qualified as "a gamer".

Stating that men are responsible for their own actions is not insulting towards men in any way.
However, acting like the men who harass women are "encouraged" to do so by the women running these streams is insulting to both men and women and diminishes the issue.

I do believe the average guy does have some power to speak up when they see someone acting horribly towards women. Most of these people are wanting group approval of their behaviour, and denying that can be a powerful thing. I think everyone trying to create a generally decent atmosphere is a good thing.

Phasmal:

Am I being disdainful towards men and gamers? Please explain. Last time I checked I was generally quite fond of men and certainly qualified as "a gamer".

Stating that men are responsible for their own actions is not insulting towards men in any way.
However, acting like the men who harass women are "encouraged" to do so by the women running these streams is insulting to both men and women and diminishes the issue.

I do believe the average guy does have some power to speak up when they see someone acting horribly towards women. Most of these people are wanting group approval of their behaviour, and denying that can be a powerful thing. I think everyone trying to create a generally decent atmosphere is a good thing.

It was not my intent to single you out as an example of that disdain, but I'm sure you've noticed how it's a part of this general line of response, as best exemplified by those "Gamers Are Dead" articles that masqueraded as such. Rather than, you know, honestly responding to the notorious media scandal they were a diversion from.

I agree that it seems suspect to claim the women running the streams in question are actively encouraging such responses. However, I can't definitely state that, as I haven't watched them myself. However, that's not really relevant to what I'm saying about responding to it by sweeping condemnations of uninvolved parties and activities.

And as regards your final point, I guess you're just more optimistic about the efficacy of direct intervention than I am. I mean, I used to be a low-ranking administrator on a MUD (consult a history book) a long time ago, and part of my duties was to handle that kind of complaints. So I had quite a few talks with kids (and they were more or less all kids) who were acting that way, and usually they would stop. But we were a community of, shall we say, manageable size, so you could do that there. And who's to say they didn't go straight into harassing people elsewhere? So it's not like I can say I fixed it, or definitely had more than a very localized effect.

StatusNil:

It was not my intent to single you out as an example of that disdain, but I'm sure you've noticed how it's a part of this general line of response, as best exemplified by those "Gamers Are Dead" articles that masqueraded as such. Rather than, you know, honestly responding to the notorious media scandal they were a diversion from.

Let's not get into GG bullshit. And also, the Gamers are Dead thing was fucking ages ago. As a gamer, seriously, we should all have collectively moved on by now.

StatusNil:

I agree that it seems suspect to claim the women running the streams in question are actively encouraging such responses. However, I can't definitely state that, as I haven't watched them myself. However, that's not really relevant to what I'm saying about responding to it by sweeping condemnations of uninvolved parties and activities.

Seeing as I didn't condemn anyone, I'm confused as to why you're replying to me like this.
Also, until someone can find me a clip of someone who does not like receiving these comments literally stating "send me these awful comments!" I can definitely state they're not encouraging those responses.

StatusNil:

And as regards your final point, I guess you're just more optimistic about the efficacy of direct intervention than I am. I mean, I used to be a low-ranking administrator on a MUD (consult a history book) a long time ago, and part of my duties was to handle that kind of complaints. So I had quite a few talks with kids (and they were more or less all kids) who were acting that way, and usually they would stop. But we were a community of, shall we say, manageable size, so you could do that there. And who's to say they didn't go straight into harassing people elsewhere? So it's not like I can say I fixed it, or definitely had more than a very localized effect.

I have been at various levels of involvement in many guilds, and direct intervention and shutting down of this kind of behaviour always seemed quite effective to me. Certainly more effective than shrugging one's shoulders and doing nothing and going on bizarre rants about make-up and "the problem with sexism" being "that people have a problem with sexism".

Doing something is always going to be more effective than doing nothing but trying to deflect the blame towards the victims of these comments.

Phasmal:

Let's not get into GG bullshit. And also, the Gamers are Dead thing was fucking ages ago. As a gamer, seriously, we should all have collectively moved on by now.

Nope, it wasn't ages ago, it's an ongoing thing. Like in this thread, wherein we learn that "gaming and gamer culture" indict themselves somehow. I will refrain from linking to recent examples from various "professionals", such as a preposterous video VICE just put out, since you obviously would rather move on from this present trend.

Edit: My apologies, it was actually Cracked that put out the particular video I was referring to. No idea how I could have confused them.

Phasmal:

Doing something is always going to be more effective than doing nothing

Maybe in the sense that it's going to have an effect, but not necessarily a positive one by any relevant criteria.

Phasmal:
but trying to deflect the blame towards the victims of these comments.

Well, it's a good thing I didn't. Rather, I was objecting to deflecting the blame towards entirely uninvolved people and pursuits. Such as "men" in the aggregate, and gaming.

StatusNil:

altnameJag:
If telling sexist little assholes that they're being sexist little assholes is going to cause "enourmous compromises on the nature of the medium", what the hell does that say about the nature of the medium? Sheesh.

Side note: while I could couch my terms in more flowerly, less offensive way, I have deliberately decided to not be PC about this. Because being PC is bad or some such.

"Solutions", I said "solutions". Telling off stupid kids might make you feel really righteous, but is it really likely to make them less stupid, or just giving them a substitute for positive attention that encourages repeat performance? That's hardly a solution, at least to the problem in question.

Works pretty well actually. That's how the World of Tanks community keeps the Nazi apologist idiots in check. Relentless mockery backed up by facts and the solid application of the clue-by-four works wonders for curbing toxic elements in an online community. Much better than pretending there isn't a problem and declaring that it's just human nature, anyway.

No reason that wouldn't work here.

altnameJag:

StatusNil:

altnameJag:
If telling sexist little assholes that they're being sexist little assholes is going to cause "enourmous compromises on the nature of the medium", what the hell does that say about the nature of the medium? Sheesh.

Side note: while I could couch my terms in more flowerly, less offensive way, I have deliberately decided to not be PC about this. Because being PC is bad or some such.

"Solutions", I said "solutions". Telling off stupid kids might make you feel really righteous, but is it really likely to make them less stupid, or just giving them a substitute for positive attention that encourages repeat performance? That's hardly a solution, at least to the problem in question.

Works pretty well actually. That's how the World of Tanks community keeps the Nazi apologist idiots in check. Relentless mockery backed up by facts and the solid application of the clue-by-four works wonders for curbing toxic elements in an online community. Much better than pretending there isn't a problem and declaring that it's just human nature, anyway.

No reason that wouldn't work here.

Correcting misinformation of a tiny minority isn't quiet the same as influencing broader cultural attitudes.

inmunitas:

altnameJag:
Works pretty well actually. That's how the World of Tanks community keeps the Nazi apologist idiots in check. Relentless mockery backed up by facts and the solid application of the clue-by-four works wonders for curbing toxic elements in an online community. Much better than pretending there isn't a problem and declaring that it's just human nature, anyway.

No reason that wouldn't work here.

Correcting misinformation of a tiny minority isn't quiet the same as influencing broader cultural attitudes.

So is men sending sexist comments to women on Twitch a broad cultural thing or is it the work of #notallmen?

Is the problem broad enough that men, in general, have some socialization issues? Or is it a minority of men that are the actual problem and we shouldn't generalize?

EDIT: Basically, are we supposed to assume this is a small proportion of people behaving poorly, or are we clinging to the misandric assumption that saying sexist stuff to women is something men can't help but do?

altnameJag:

inmunitas:

altnameJag:
Works pretty well actually. That's how the World of Tanks community keeps the Nazi apologist idiots in check. Relentless mockery backed up by facts and the solid application of the clue-by-four works wonders for curbing toxic elements in an online community. Much better than pretending there isn't a problem and declaring that it's just human nature, anyway.

No reason that wouldn't work here.

Correcting misinformation of a tiny minority isn't quiet the same as influencing broader cultural attitudes.

So is men sending sexist comments to women on Twitch a broad cultural thing or is it the work of #notallmen?

Is the problem broad enough that men, in general, have some socialization issues? Or is it a minority of men that are the actual problem and we shouldn't generalize?

EDIT: Basically, are we supposed to assume this is a small proportion of people behaving poorly, or are we clinging to the misandric assumption that saying sexist stuff to women is something men can't help but do?

It would be "misandric" to assume it's an issue with men specifically, even in this instance.

undeadsuitor:

But in regards to the rest of your post

how about

we

hold men responsible for their actions?

?

maybe?

Can we then also hold the streamer responsible for their actions as well? Or is it a one-sided judgement of shame?

Yet there is nothing to be shamed about here. You can't encourage people do do certain things, and then turn around and get upset at them for doing the things you encourage. It doesn't make sense. It's like a stripper getting upset because everyone is looking at her tits.

CritialGaming:

Can we then also hold the streamer responsible for their actions as well? Or is it a one-sided judgement of shame?

Yet there is nothing to be shamed about here. You can't encourage people do do certain things, and then turn around and get upset at them for doing the things you encourage. It doesn't make sense. It's like a stripper getting upset because everyone is looking at her tits.

Actions like wearing make-up? Women wearing make up on streams are comparable to strippers?

Hoooly hell my dude.

Dudes acting shitty to women is something they should be ashamed of. It's something negative. I'm honestly concerned for you if you think otherwise.

inmunitas:

It would be "misandric" to assume it's an issue with men specifically, even in this instance.

According to Twitch, 75% of its viewers are male.

Unless the study in question has caught onto a fairly serious statistical anomaly, it's a fairly safe assumption most of these comments are coming from men.

Is it more misandric to view this as a small subset of men with agency and the capacity for change, or is it more misandric to think that men can't help but lob sexist comment towards women because, even if their chat moderation says not to and said women complain about it, because "regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it", as the OP opines.

Phasmal:

As it turns out, you're correct. I don't believe not making such threads, while simple enough, is going to have much of a positive impact. And neither is pretending that it's just a matter of being disdainful enough of "men" and "gamers", the majority of whom surely have nothing whatsoever to do with what your complaint is, and are not in a position to make it stop. That's just poisoning the well.

Am I being disdainful towards men and gamers? Please explain. Last time I checked I was generally quite fond of men and certainly qualified as "a gamer".

Stating that men are responsible for their own actions is not insulting towards men in any way.
However, acting like the men who harass women are "encouraged" to do so by the women running these streams is insulting to both men and women and diminishes the issue.

I do believe the average guy does have some power to speak up when they see someone acting horribly towards women. Most of these people are wanting group approval of their behaviour, and denying that can be a powerful thing. I think everyone trying to create a generally decent atmosphere is a good thing.[/quote]

I'll ask you this.

Say you go to a strip club and you take a seat at the stage where a dancer is doing her naked thing. The man next to you catcalls her or shouts something like, "Great Chichis!". Are you then in turn expected to shame that man for his catcalling of a women just trying to earn a living, or is it a forgivable offense given the situation you are both in?

Can you then in turn translate that situation into what these so called "boobie" streamers do? After all, they encourage this kind of behavior, they thrive and make their LIVINGS off of said behavior. So how can you chastise the people (I use people because they can be men, women, or omnisexuals for all we know) for feeding the "hype" and "image". That is what they came for as that is what the streamer is advertising.

And I want to stress, I'm not talking about genuine female game streamers. Women who are not encouraging this behavior. They have mods and restrictions upon their channels that fight and prevent this kind of stuff. I think a lot of people in this thread are taking the original subject and question and applying it onto the wrong situation. I am not encouraging sexual catcalling or that bullshit in a streamers chatroom that isn't ACTIVELY welcoming it.

altnameJag:

inmunitas:

It would be "misandric" to assume it's an issue with men specifically, even in this instance.

According to Twitch, 75% of its viewers are male.

Unless the study in question has caught onto a fairly serious statistical anomaly, it's a fairly safe assumption most of these comments are coming from men.

Is it more misandric to view this as a small subset of men with agency and the capacity for change, or is it more misandric to think that men can't help but lob sexist comment towards women because, even if their chat moderation says not to and said women complain about it, there's still a sense that these women are fostering this environment because "regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it", as the OP opines.

Wrong. You are not listening to what I am saying here.

I'm not talking about abuse laid unto women with moderated channels, and exhibiting an attempt to control such behaviors. I'm talking about the streamers that purposefully DON'T. The streamers that allow and encourage said catcalling. The girls who Semi-strip and dance in the camera when they get donations. Those that FOSTER and ENCOURAGE said behaviors.

Not the ones who actively fight to prevent it. I'm not talking about, nor was I EVER talking about those women.

CritialGaming:

I'll ask you this.

Say you go to a strip club and you take a seat at the stage where a dancer is doing her naked thing. The man next to you catcalls her or shouts something like, "Great Chichis!". Are you then in turn expected to shame that man for his catcalling of a women just trying to earn a living, or is it a forgivable offense given the situation you are both in?

Can you then in turn translate that situation into what these so called "boobie" streamers do? After all, they encourage this kind of behavior, they thrive and make their LIVINGS off of said behavior. So how can you chastise the people (I use people because they can be men, women, or omnisexuals for all we know) for feeding the "hype" and "image". That is what they came for as that is what the streamer is advertising.

And I want to stress, I'm not talking about genuine female game streamers. Women who are not encouraging this behavior. They have mods and restrictions upon their channels that fight and prevent this kind of stuff. I think a lot of people in this thread are taking the original subject and question and applying it onto the wrong situation. I am not encouraging sexual catcalling or that bullshit in a streamers chatroom that isn't ACTIVELY welcoming it.

This whole "encouraging this behaviour" thing is complete bullshit and I think you know it.

Where exactly is the line?
How much make-up exactly does one have to wear before poor wee men can't help themselves but to talk nasty shit about you?
How big are your boobs allowed to be? What shirts is one theoretically allowed to wear without being a dirty dirty siren who needs shaming?

You can't answer these questions because they're fucking stupid.

If a woman ran a stream with no creepers in it, regardless of her dress or make-up, she wouldn't get creeped on.

So yeah. It's 100% a people-making-these-comments problem.

Sorry not sorry.

EDIT: Dude, I'm gonna make this simple- people are having a problem with you because you are literally trying to say there are kinds of women it's okay to harass. No.

Phasmal:

CritialGaming:

I'll ask you this.

Say you go to a strip club and you take a seat at the stage where a dancer is doing her naked thing. The man next to you catcalls her or shouts something like, "Great Chichis!". Are you then in turn expected to shame that man for his catcalling of a women just trying to earn a living, or is it a forgivable offense given the situation you are both in?

Can you then in turn translate that situation into what these so called "boobie" streamers do? After all, they encourage this kind of behavior, they thrive and make their LIVINGS off of said behavior. So how can you chastise the people (I use people because they can be men, women, or omnisexuals for all we know) for feeding the "hype" and "image". That is what they came for as that is what the streamer is advertising.

And I want to stress, I'm not talking about genuine female game streamers. Women who are not encouraging this behavior. They have mods and restrictions upon their channels that fight and prevent this kind of stuff. I think a lot of people in this thread are taking the original subject and question and applying it onto the wrong situation. I am not encouraging sexual catcalling or that bullshit in a streamers chatroom that isn't ACTIVELY welcoming it.

This whole "encouraging this behaviour" thing is complete bullshit and I think you know it.

Where exactly is the line?
How much make-up exactly does one have to wear before poor wee men can't help themselves but to talk nasty shit about you?
How big are your boobs allowed to be? What shirts is one theoretically allowed to wear without being a dirty dirty siren who needs shaming?

You can't answer these questions because they're fucking stupid.

If a woman ran a stream with no creepers in it, regardless of her dress or make-up, she wouldn't get creeped on.

So yeah. It's 100% a people-making-these-comments problem.

Sorry not sorry.

What about the streamer that gave her mic a blowjob for donations? That encouraging anything? Promoting flithy behaviors? Maybe? Possibly a little bit? Or she can be as sexual as she wants, but don't dare talk about it in her chatroom otherwise your being disgusting.

Or the stream who dances and strips for her webcam when she meets "donation" goals? Nope, can't have them sexist talks in that chat either.

I'm sorry, but this shit goes both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It would be like a person getting mad at you for looking at their ass, meanwhile you are having sex with each other. Doesn't make any sense.

CritialGaming:

altnameJag:

inmunitas:

It would be "misandric" to assume it's an issue with men specifically, even in this instance.

According to Twitch, 75% of its viewers are male.

Unless the study in question has caught onto a fairly serious statistical anomaly, it's a fairly safe assumption most of these comments are coming from men.

Is it more misandric to view this as a small subset of men with agency and the capacity for change, or is it more misandric to think that men can't help but lob sexist comment towards women because, even if their chat moderation says not to and said women complain about it, there's still a sense that these women are fostering this environment because "regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it", as the OP opines.

Wrong. You are not listening to what I am saying here.

I'm not talking about abuse laid unto women with moderated channels, and exhibiting an attempt to control such behaviors. I'm talking about the streamers that purposefully DON'T. The streamers that allow and encourage said catcalling. The girls who Semi-strip and dance in the camera when they get donations. Those that FOSTER and ENCOURAGE said behaviors.

Not the ones who actively fight to prevent it. I'm not talking about, nor was I EVER talking about those women.

And yet "regardless there does seem to be a sense of asking for it". Putting "special" onus on the so-called boogie-streamers after doesn't negate that statement.

Hell, your argument is precisely "they are asking for it".

My first theory is this. Female streamers provide ammunition for such comments. Wearing excessive make-up, low cut tops, and even behavior. Now the first counter to that is, "It doesn't mean she is asking for it." And in normal society that argument is correct and valid. A woman dressing nicely, wearing a dress for a night out that reveals cleavage and pretty make-up doesn't automatically mean they are looking seedy attention. It just means they want to look good on a date, or a formal evening of some kind. In the real world, such dress means nothing. However, streaming is all about getting as much attention as possible. Their entire value as a streamer depends on how much attention a person can hog.

Hell, your standard for "excessive/sexy makeup" was "wearing noticeable makeup" for crying out loud.

altnameJag:

Hell, your standard for "excessive/sexy makeup" was "wearing noticeable makeup" for crying out loud.

That example was meant as a comparable difference between "professional workplace" make up and I guess what you might call "Night out" make-up. Forget the make-up example then, it isn't relevant to the point.

And yes my "asking for it" argument was all meant to be directed at a specific "boobie" streamer subset. And even then I only used "asking for it" as a generalization. "Encouraging certain behaviors" would be more accurate I suppose.

Throughout all of this nobody has really even addressed the question at hand here.

So let me be direct with you Altnamejag. Does a streamer hold any blame for the audiences they incite? Are they not to be held in any account for behaviors they enable and/or encourage?

That is what I want to know.

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