Twitch chat comparisons between male and female streamers

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CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:

But in regards to the rest of your post

how about

we

hold men responsible for their actions?

?

maybe?

Can we then also hold the streamer responsible for their actions as well? Or is it a one-sided judgement of shame?

Yet there is nothing to be shamed about here. You can't encourage people do do certain things, and then turn around and get upset at them for doing the things you encourage. It doesn't make sense. It's like a stripper getting upset because everyone is looking at her tits.

So your options are

Tell inappropriate people to stop acting inappropriately

Or

Dictate what a woman wears, looks like, and says 24 hours a day 7 days a week

Hmmmmmmm

CritialGaming:

altnameJag:

Hell, your standard for "excessive/sexy makeup" was "wearing noticeable makeup" for crying out loud.

That example was meant as a comparable difference between "professional workplace" make up and I guess what you might call "Night out" make-up. Forget the make-up example then, it isn't relevant to the point.

And yes my "asking for it" argument was all meant to be directed at a specific "boobie" streamer subset. (Even though it explicitly wasn't, as you can see by use of the word "especially" -altnamejag) And even then I only used "asking for it" as a generalization. "Encouraging certain behaviors" would be more accurate I suppose. (The fuck's the difference? -altnamejag)

Throughout all of this nobody has really even addressed the question at hand here.

So let me be direct with you Altnamejag. Does a streamer hold any blame for the audiences they incite? Are they not to be held in any account for behaviors they enable and/or encourage?

That is what I want to know.

Sure. Problem is, your argument was that female streamers in general encourage this behavior, what with their noticeable makeup, fashionable clothes, and streams being more a fan club for the streamer than a fan club for the game. (Don't try denying that bit. I'm more than happy to copy-paste your entire OP if I have to.)

My questions are, at what point are men expected to behave themselves, and why don't people who defend this shit seem to think men are incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions?

undeadsuitor:

So your options are

Tell inappropriate people to stop acting inappropriately

Or

Dictate what a woman wears, looks like, and says 24 hours a day 7 days a week

Hmmmmmmm

What!? No! What the hell?

We are talking about twitch streaming, and the behaviors encouraged by the streamer. This has nothing to do with women outside of that small subset location.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Don't project things beyond the scope of their intention to suit your statements.

What I think most people don't realize is that telling someone not to act inappropriately doesn't work. You have to either force proper behavior or learn to avoid or otherwise deal with it.

altnameJag:
Sure. Problem is, your argument was that female streamers in general encourage this behavior, what with their noticeable makeup, fashionable clothes, and streams being more a fan club for the streamer than a fan club for the game. (Don't try denying that bit. I'm more than happy to copy-paste your entire OP if I have to.)

My questions are, at what point are men expected to behave themselves, and why don't people who defend this shit seem to think men are incapable of taking responsibility for their own actions?

So is your answer "sure"? Or are you just dodging the question?

Also I specific referred to specific female streamers, not all of them. I have been very clear that I am talking about a specific subset of streamers not "In general". At least in terms of the encouraged inappropriate behaviors.

'behaviors encouraged by the streamer'? Are you saying that female streamers encourage men to pontificate about their bodies? Oh, and I don't remember who made the comment about the commenters being 'boys not men', but a cursory search paints a different picture about the age demographics on twitch (not to mention this is an entirely unsubstantiated claim). https://www.quantcast.com/twitch.tv#trafficCard

http://www.usgamer.net/articles/twitch-viewers-more-than-double-to-45-million-in-2013

That said, boys don't learn that behavior in a vacuum.

CritialGaming:

Phasmal:

CritialGaming:

I'll ask you this.

Say you go to a strip club and you take a seat at the stage where a dancer is doing her naked thing. The man next to you catcalls her or shouts something like, "Great Chichis!". Are you then in turn expected to shame that man for his catcalling of a women just trying to earn a living, or is it a forgivable offense given the situation you are both in?

Can you then in turn translate that situation into what these so called "boobie" streamers do? After all, they encourage this kind of behavior, they thrive and make their LIVINGS off of said behavior. So how can you chastise the people (I use people because they can be men, women, or omnisexuals for all we know) for feeding the "hype" and "image". That is what they came for as that is what the streamer is advertising.

And I want to stress, I'm not talking about genuine female game streamers. Women who are not encouraging this behavior. They have mods and restrictions upon their channels that fight and prevent this kind of stuff. I think a lot of people in this thread are taking the original subject and question and applying it onto the wrong situation. I am not encouraging sexual catcalling or that bullshit in a streamers chatroom that isn't ACTIVELY welcoming it.

This whole "encouraging this behaviour" thing is complete bullshit and I think you know it.

Where exactly is the line?
How much make-up exactly does one have to wear before poor wee men can't help themselves but to talk nasty shit about you?
How big are your boobs allowed to be? What shirts is one theoretically allowed to wear without being a dirty dirty siren who needs shaming?

You can't answer these questions because they're fucking stupid.

If a woman ran a stream with no creepers in it, regardless of her dress or make-up, she wouldn't get creeped on.

So yeah. It's 100% a people-making-these-comments problem.

Sorry not sorry.

What about the streamer that gave her mic a blowjob for donations? That encouraging anything? Promoting flithy behaviors? Maybe? Possibly a little bit? Or she can be as sexual as she wants, but don't dare talk about it in her chatroom otherwise your being disgusting.

Or the stream who dances and strips for her webcam when she meets "donation" goals? Nope, can't have them sexist talks in that chat either.

I'm sorry, but this shit goes both ways. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It would be like a person getting mad at you for looking at their ass, meanwhile you are having sex with each other. Doesn't make any sense.

...their streams, their rules? No, seriously, their streams, their rules, and if they're not down with sexist chat in their streams you don't do sexist shit in their streams. They could be hard-fucking on cam, but if the streamer says 'hey, don't comment on my titties' and you comment on her titties, you're the asshole here.

Seriously, just because the streamer is being sexual doesn't give you a free pass to be fuckin' creepy. Shockingly enough, lots of real-life strip clubs have the same rules - just 'cause you're their for the titties doesn't mean you're allowed to scream 'I want to motorboat them puppies' as loud as you can.

undeadsuitor:

proxyhostlawl:

Revnak:

But how can I sustain my manliness if I do not tell every woman I masturbate to that I did so and that I want to know where her house is so I can see her poop? There's a clear cause and effect here, see titties, ask to see poop. This is just the way the world is.

Get help dude.

dont victim blame dude

would you blame someone who had their house robbed that it was their own fault?

its not his fault she has hot poop

Depends, did said person take all the steps needed to protect their stuff? Or did said person brag about it on a public facebook and go on vacation for a week?
If it was the former then not really their fault shit happens. If the latter, said person is a fucking dumbass not worth of any sympathy and they were borderline asking for it.

Context is key.

StatusNil:

Only there's no "out" through this false choice, is there? And that's why we get to have a Culture War.

Your side of that war didn't provide an out either. So don't get too comfortable up there.

Houseman:

Smithnikov:

Houseman:

"If you leave your car unlocked, you give bad people opportunities to steal"
but not this:
"If you wear a low-cut top, you give bad people opportunities to catcall"

Except we don't. That's my point.

We don't tell people "If you leave your car unlocked, you give bad people opportunities to steal?"

Are you sure?

And if you don't care for sign companies, here's a more official source.

I'm sure I can find one of those for all 50 states if I wanted.

No, I mean we don't let the thief off the hook for stealing the car because it's unlocked. The thief is still the one who made the choice to steal. Likewise the jerk who decides to act like a caveman made the choice to act like a caveman. He didn't have a gun to his head. He wasn't compelled. I'm not in the business of excusing or equating the target of a foul act to the person making the foul act.

Smithnikov:

No, I mean we don't let the thief off the hook for stealing the car because it's unlocked. The thief is still the one who made the choice to steal. Likewise the jerk who decides to act like a caveman made the choice to act like a caveman. He didn't have a gun to his head. He wasn't compelled.

I agree with you. What made you think that I didn't? I never said anything about letting anyone off the hook.

altnameJag:

inmunitas:

It would be "misandric" to assume it's an issue with men specifically, even in this instance.

According to Twitch, 75% of its viewers are male.

Unless the study in question has caught onto a fairly serious statistical anomaly, it's a fairly safe assumption most of these comments are coming from men.

75% of Twitch users apparently being male doesn't directly translate to the viewer-ship of each channel being predominantly male. The study in question is completely useless in regards to the current discussion, as it's just a statistical analysis of common words in selected channels, there is no context to what was actually posted.

inmunitas:

75% of Twitch users apparently being male doesn't directly translate to the viewer-ship of each channel being predominantly male. The study in question is completely useless in regards to the current discussion, as it's just a statistical analysis of common words in selected channels, there is no context to what was actually posted.

This is true. While it is hard to believe a female viewer of a stream would dare be so crass, I can tell you that in my early days I was a bouncer for a "Magic Mike" strip club (where the strippers are men) and women in those clubs are 100 times worst then men at other clubs. Some of the craziness I've seen in those places will blow your mind.

Like most of these discussions on here, people only see what they want to see. They bring up statements that don't matter to the conversation at hand. The audience in the chat room is irrelevant to the question of whether a streamer is suppose to be responsible for their actions. If you read through this thread, you will notice that pretty much everyone blames the "Male" audience and the female streamer can do no wrong. However in the real world, you can be held responsible to being an accessory to a crime without having done any actual crime. I feel like that principle needs to be applied here. These streamers are not innocent "victims" and most of them wouldn't even consider themselves victims as they are simply doing and promoting what makes them money. Especially when you consider that they are not actually trapped into streaming. There is no one forcing them to stream, let alone use a facecam while they do it. f the "harassment" and "catcalling" was really something they wanted to avoid there are countless ways in which they could so it, but rather than shy away from it, they embrace and encourage it. All in the name of their image and their income.

This is a choice that they have made. This is the audience that they've reached for, and built for themselves.

CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:

So your options are

Tell inappropriate people to stop acting inappropriately

Or

Dictate what a woman wears, looks like, and says 24 hours a day 7 days a week

Hmmmmmmm

What!? No! What the hell?

We are talking about twitch streaming, and the behaviors encouraged by the streamer. This has nothing to do with women outside of that small subset location.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Don't project things beyond the scope of their intention to suit your statements.

What I think most people don't realize is that telling someone not to act inappropriately doesn't work. You have to either force proper behavior or learn to avoid or otherwise deal with it.

While I'm sure you have good intentions you have to realize that you're still contributing to a much wider narrative that requires, nay, demands victims to navigate through an increasingly numerous amount of obtuse freedom limiting steps to avoid being harassed.

How much freedom would you submit for safety? And why are harassers freedom to harass more important than a victims freedom to exist?

Various websites ToS exist for a reason, it's time we started enforcing it.

undeadsuitor:

CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:

So your options are

Tell inappropriate people to stop acting inappropriately

Or

Dictate what a woman wears, looks like, and says 24 hours a day 7 days a week

Hmmmmmmm

What!? No! What the hell?

We are talking about twitch streaming, and the behaviors encouraged by the streamer. This has nothing to do with women outside of that small subset location.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill. Don't project things beyond the scope of their intention to suit your statements.

What I think most people don't realize is that telling someone not to act inappropriately doesn't work. You have to either force proper behavior or learn to avoid or otherwise deal with it.

While I'm sure you have good intentions you have to realize that you're still contributing to a much wider narrative that requires, nay, demands victims to navigate through an increasingly numerous amount of obtuse freedom limiting steps to avoid being harassed.

How much freedom would you submit for safety? And why are harassers freedom to harass more important than a victims freedom to exist?

Various websites ToS exist for a reason, it's time we started enforcing it.

But you are claiming victimhood upon which there is no victim. Are boxers victims because the crowd wants to see their teeth punched in? You can't foster behavior and then complain about the behavior you encourage. Just like you can order a hamburger and complain that it contains beef.

I'm not denying nor arguing against the fact that victimization occurs. I'm arguing that in this particular case, it does not apply. Just this case. But people are so quick these days to umbrellitize everything. I speak one a specific situation that was brought up and most everyone else applied it in general terms.

It seems like a lot of folks only have a hammer, so everything must then be a nail. Shame that there can't be discussion, because there can be no give and take, no admissions of fault on both sides of the line. It's a one-sided argument that can't be resolved because the argument itself is unreasonable.

Can't we just tell people to stop posting inappropriate messages.

CritialGaming:
These streamers are not innocent "victims" and most of them wouldn't even consider themselves victims as they are simply doing and promoting what makes them money. Especially when you consider that they are not actually trapped into streaming. There is no one forcing them to stream, let alone use a facecam while they do it. f the "harassment" and "catcalling" was really something they wanted to avoid there are countless ways in which they could so it, but rather than shy away from it, they embrace and encourage it. All in the name of their image and their income.

This is a choice that they have made. This is the audience that they've reached for, and built for themselves.

See, this is why people tend to think you have a "blame the victim" mentality. Because you go from "I'm only talking about the people that promote this behavior" to "wearing lipstick and having facecam means they have some fault for what they're getting".

I mean, if your bar is low enough that "just don't appear on camera, maybe not even stream" is on the table, where would the hypothetical streamer be if she wasn't on camera but still talked?

EDIT:

CritialGaming:

But you are claiming victimhood upon which there is no victim. Are boxers victims because the crowd wants to see their teeth punched in? You can't foster behavior and then complain about the behavior you encourage. Just like you can order a hamburger and complain that it contains beef.

I'm not denying nor arguing against the fact that victimization occurs. I'm arguing that in this particular case, it does not apply. Just this case. But people are so quick these days to umbrellitize everything. I speak one a specific situation that was brought up and most everyone else applied it in general terms.

Mate, your the one trying to justify it by saying "maybe they shouldn't have face cams".

Apparently, the only way a woman isn't "fostering" these comments is if she isn't streaming. (Or you have a habit of using incredibly imprecise language)

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:
These streamers are not innocent "victims" and most of them wouldn't even consider themselves victims as they are simply doing and promoting what makes them money. Especially when you consider that they are not actually trapped into streaming. There is no one forcing them to stream, let alone use a facecam while they do it. f the "harassment" and "catcalling" was really something they wanted to avoid there are countless ways in which they could so it, but rather than shy away from it, they embrace and encourage it. All in the name of their image and their income.

This is a choice that they have made. This is the audience that they've reached for, and built for themselves.

See, this is why people tend to think you have a "blame the victim" mentality. Because you go from "I'm only talking about the people that promote this behavior" to "wearing lipstick and having facecam means they have some fault for what they're getting".

I mean, if your bar is low enough that "just don't appear on camera, maybe not even stream" is on the table, where would the hypothetical streamer be if she wasn't on camera but still talked?

I already admitted to the make-up mistake as a bad frame of reference. So wipe that off the discussion because I've already admitted to it's faults.

Now if the hypothetical streamer wasn't on camera, then she would have to build her fan base based entirely off personality and gameplay/gamemastery. As awful as it might be for people to actually have or pretend to have interesting personalities rather than rely on their looks right? I guess you could say that these streamers are using their looks and their bodies to bring people in, not their personalities, and at which point again it all falls upon the streamers shoulders for what kind of behavior they create as acceptable in their chatrooms.

Shitty messages in chat are almost completely avoidable. And 100% avoidable against repeat offenders thanks to banning/muting/subscriber only chat options. Yet they don't censor or even attempt to control the chatroom, and as a result other people should badmouth their audience because obviously the streamer is happy with that audience.

Think of it like this. Say you find out that a friend has all these red marks on their back. When you ask, you find out that your friend's partner beats her while they have sex. Turns out your friend LIKE it. Maybe she is into BDSM or whatever, painplay or however they call it. While you might personally think that's fucked up and wrong, do you have any right to get mad at her partner when she is obviously enjoying and asking for such acts to be performed upon her?

These streamers are making their own choice in regards to their channels. It is not the place of anyone else to criticize and chastise not only the streamer but also his/her audience. If the streamer allows it, then it is their right to say such things are okay, not yours.

CritialGaming:

But you are claiming victimhood upon which there is no victim. Are boxers victims because the crowd wants to see their teeth punched in? You can't foster behavior and then complain about the behavior you encourage. Just like you can order a hamburger and complain that it contains beef.

I'm not denying nor arguing against the fact that victimization occurs. I'm arguing that in this particular case, it does not apply. Just this case. But people are so quick these days to umbrellitize everything. I speak one a specific situation that was brought up and most everyone else applied it in general terms.

It seems like a lot of folks only have a hammer, so everything must then be a nail. Shame that there can't be discussion, because there can be no give and take, no admissions of fault on both sides of the line. It's a one-sided argument that can't be resolved because the argument itself is unreasonable.

Nobody arguing against you has ever addressed your points about streamers stripping or any other of your examples that make the lewd atmosphere clear. People only ever pick out the relatively innocuous things that you say like "makeup" or "webcam", and then act like that's your entire argument.

It's sad.

Houseman:

CritialGaming:

But you are claiming victimhood upon which there is no victim. Are boxers victims because the crowd wants to see their teeth punched in? You can't foster behavior and then complain about the behavior you encourage. Just like you can order a hamburger and complain that it contains beef.

I'm not denying nor arguing against the fact that victimization occurs. I'm arguing that in this particular case, it does not apply. Just this case. But people are so quick these days to umbrellitize everything. I speak one a specific situation that was brought up and most everyone else applied it in general terms.

It seems like a lot of folks only have a hammer, so everything must then be a nail. Shame that there can't be discussion, because there can be no give and take, no admissions of fault on both sides of the line. It's a one-sided argument that can't be resolved because the argument itself is unreasonable.

Nobody arguing against you has ever addressed your points about streamers stripping or any other of your examples that make the lewd atmosphere clear. People only ever pick out the relatively innocuous things that you say like "makeup" or "webcam", and then act like that's your entire argument.

It's sad.

Thank you for that Houseman. I was beginning to think I have been taking crazy pills.

CritialGaming:

inmunitas:

75% of Twitch users apparently being male doesn't directly translate to the viewer-ship of each channel being predominantly male. The study in question is completely useless in regards to the current discussion, as it's just a statistical analysis of common words in selected channels, there is no context to what was actually posted.

This is true. While it is hard to believe a female viewer of a stream would dare be so crass, I can tell you that in my early days I was a bouncer for a "Magic Mike" strip club (where the strippers are men) and women in those clubs are 100 times worst then men at other clubs. Some of the craziness I've seen in those places will blow your mind.

Like most of these discussions on here, people only see what they want to see. They bring up statements that don't matter to the conversation at hand. The audience in the chat room is irrelevant to the question of whether a streamer is suppose to be responsible for their actions. If you read through this thread, you will notice that pretty much everyone blames the "Male" audience and the female streamer can do no wrong. However in the real world, you can be held responsible to being an accessory to a crime without having done any actual crime. I feel like that principle needs to be applied here. These streamers are not innocent "victims" and most of them wouldn't even consider themselves victims as they are simply doing and promoting what makes them money. Especially when you consider that they are not actually trapped into streaming. There is no one forcing them to stream, let alone use a facecam while they do it. f the "harassment" and "catcalling" was really something they wanted to avoid there are countless ways in which they could so it, but rather than shy away from it, they embrace and encourage it. All in the name of their image and their income.

This is a choice that they have made. This is the audience that they've reached for, and built for themselves.

No, you seem to be making the same mistake as everyone else, the study has nothing to do with harassment, catcalling or supposed "victims".

CritialGaming:

Now if the hypothetical streamer wasn't on camera, then she would have to build her fan base based entirely off personality and gameplay/gamemastery. As awful as it might be for people to actually have or pretend to have interesting personalities rather than rely on their looks right? I guess you could say that these streamers are using their looks and their bodies to bring people in, not their personalities, and at which point again it all falls upon the streamers shoulders for what kind of behavior they create as acceptable in their chatrooms.

So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.

Think of it like this. Say you find out that a friend has all these red marks on their back. When you ask, you find out that your friend's partner beats her while they have sex. Turns out your friend LIKE it. Maybe she is into BDSM or whatever, painplay or however they call it. While you might personally think that's fucked up and wrong, do you have any right to get mad at her partner when she is obviously enjoying and asking for such acts to be performed upon her?

Depends, is she "asking for such acts to be performed on her" merely by being visibly present?

These streamers are making their own choice in regards to their channels. It is not the place of anyone else to criticize and chastise not only the streamer but also his/her audience. If the streamer allows it, then it is their right to say such things are okay, not yours.

Neat. Considering neither the Kotaku article nor the study presented there in was criticizing or chastising the people making these comments, why the lengthy preemptive defense and justification?

EDIT: Seriously, you're trying to snipe the places between your toes with some of these arguments and the imprecise language contained there in.

Houseman:

CritialGaming:

But you are claiming victimhood upon which there is no victim. Are boxers victims because the crowd wants to see their teeth punched in? You can't foster behavior and then complain about the behavior you encourage. Just like you can order a hamburger and complain that it contains beef.

I'm not denying nor arguing against the fact that victimization occurs. I'm arguing that in this particular case, it does not apply. Just this case. But people are so quick these days to umbrellitize everything. I speak one a specific situation that was brought up and most everyone else applied it in general terms.

It seems like a lot of folks only have a hammer, so everything must then be a nail. Shame that there can't be discussion, because there can be no give and take, no admissions of fault on both sides of the line. It's a one-sided argument that can't be resolved because the argument itself is unreasonable.

Nobody arguing against you has ever addressed your points about streamers stripping or any other of your examples that make the lewd atmosphere clear. People only ever pick out the relatively innocuous things that you say like "makeup" or "webcam", and then act like that's your entire argument.

It's sad.

I think if you were to go and read everybody's posts once again: you will find out that you are indeed incorrect. Yet again. Those points have been addressed. Many times.

And that is sad that you missed it. :( :: sad face ::

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

Now if the hypothetical streamer wasn't on camera, then she would have to build her fan base based entirely off personality and gameplay/gamemastery. As awful as it might be for people to actually have or pretend to have interesting personalities rather than rely on their looks right? I guess you could say that these streamers are using their looks and their bodies to bring people in, not their personalities, and at which point again it all falls upon the streamers shoulders for what kind of behavior they create as acceptable in their chatrooms.

So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

proxyhostlawl:
snip

Pictures that speak volumes. Thank you.

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

Now if the hypothetical streamer wasn't on camera, then she would have to build her fan base based entirely off personality and gameplay/gamemastery. As awful as it might be for people to actually have or pretend to have interesting personalities rather than rely on their looks right? I guess you could say that these streamers are using their looks and their bodies to bring people in, not their personalities, and at which point again it all falls upon the streamers shoulders for what kind of behavior they create as acceptable in their chatrooms.

So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

So ALL female streamers should be treated like how you assume these women should be treated?

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:

CritialGaming:

Now if the hypothetical streamer wasn't on camera, then she would have to build her fan base based entirely off personality and gameplay/gamemastery. As awful as it might be for people to actually have or pretend to have interesting personalities rather than rely on their looks right? I guess you could say that these streamers are using their looks and their bodies to bring people in, not their personalities, and at which point again it all falls upon the streamers shoulders for what kind of behavior they create as acceptable in their chatrooms.

So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

CritialGaming:

Pictures that speak volumes. Thank you.

*Rubs temples* And I was able to go on Twitch just now and find ladies who do the headcam thing too. Christ, even you know this is a bad argument, what with the "Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole".

It's a sad day when the kotaku article that got linked in the OP is making your arguments better than you are.

It's amazing how quick people are to paint men as sex crazed hounds first, thinking people later in justification and defense of rational adult human beings treated the opposite sex as an object to fantasize about sex with.

But some of these same people absolutely froth at the mouth when feminists like Anita says some shit like 'all men inherently see women as less' or some generalized bullshit.
Like these kinds of posts only serves to put more fuel on the fire and JUSTIFY feminists saying crap like this. Why shoot yourself in the foot like that?

undeadsuitor:

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:
So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

So ALL female streamers should be treated like how you assume these women should be treated?

Now where did I say that? Please a direct quote.

altnameJag:

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:
So, what, are dudes with face cams "relying on their looks instead of having or pretending to have interesting personalities"? What the actual fuck is this argument? Women are being penalizing for the same behavior that's standard for men, brilliant.


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

CritialGaming:

Pictures that speak volumes. Thank you.

*Rubs temples* And I was able to go on Twitch just now and find ladies who do the headcam thing too. Christ, even you know this is a bad argument, what with the "Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole".

It's a sad day when the kotaku article that got linked in the OP is making your arguments better than you are.

You said similar behavior. I pointed out there existed a difference between behaviors. Hell if you had read my other posts here you would have seen I did bring up the female streamers who did not boobie cam and how, in my experience, they tended to not have a chat problem. So are you going to continue to ignore my points in favor a faux moral outrage or address them?

Dragonbums:
It's amazing how quick people are to paint men as sex crazed hounds first, thinking people later in justification and defense of rational adult human beings treated the opposite sex as an object to fantasize about sex with.

But some of these same people absolutely froth at the mouth when feminists like Anita says some shit like 'all men inherently see women as less' or some generalized bullshit.
Like these kinds of posts only serves to put more fuel on the fire and JUSTIFY feminists saying crap like this. Why shoot yourself in the foot like that?

Or we see men not a group libel for the actions of minority, whom no one can control, but as individuals. So where some see men others see trolls. Kind of key difference.

Hell in this thread we have people saying we should raise boys different because of the actions of a few. Plus some hand waving about some vague "society" and "toxic" behaviors.

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:

proxyhostlawl:


Same behavior? I think not. Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole. Just thought I would just throw this out there. BUT maybe the behaviors are different and thus get different reactions.

CritialGaming:

Pictures that speak volumes. Thank you.

*Rubs temples* And I was able to go on Twitch just now and find ladies who do the headcam thing too. Christ, even you know this is a bad argument, what with the "Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole".

It's a sad day when the kotaku article that got linked in the OP is making your arguments better than you are.

You said similar behavior. I pointed out there existed a difference between behaviors. Hell if you had read my other posts here you would have seen I did bring up the female streamers who did not boobie cam and how, in my experience, they tended to not have a chat problem. So are you going to continue to ignore my points in favor a faux moral outrage or address them?

What points? That because some women act a certain way, we can discount the entire issue?

Shit, last time I saw "comparison" pictures like that, "hardcore" gamers were pitching a fit over "fake girl gamers".

EDIT:

proxyhostlawl:

Or we see men not a group libel for the actions of minority, whom no one can control, but as individuals. So where some see men others see trolls. Kind of key difference.

"Now let me tell you why Twitch chat being heavily gendered isn't an issue because some female streamers are boobie streamers."

proxyhostlawl:

Or we see men not a group libel for the actions of minority,

And yet when someone points out that the men are the majority aggressors with this kind of behavior- the first response isn't
some shit like 'When I see that kind of behavior in stream, I tell them to quit' but find multitudes of reasons for why the recipient of said harassment is at fault or 'asking for it'.
I would like to point out that the reason why we don't crassly call any gay person who so much as exists on streams 'faggot' and other such homophobic language is because 'straight people' didn't find 10 million reasons for #notallheteros or how it's somehow the queer persons fault for being too queer and baiting homophobes. It was because we recognized how it's a shitty thing period and told the people doing that shit that it was not only unacceptable behavior but will not be tolerated.

Hell in this thread we have people saying we should raise boys different because of the actions of a few. Plus some hand waving about some vague "society" and "toxic" behaviors.

That isn't what they said at all. What the user said was that there has to be a reason why men and young male preteens are much more predisposed to to leave crass, gross and unruly comments towards women in gaming streams as opposed to their female counterparts.
If women want to gush about how hot Markiplier is for example- most of the comments are relegated to fangirl crap like 'Aaaah so cute/sexy!', 'We love you!!:D' the works. A woman streamer does the same shit and it's nothing but 'show me your tits', 'go back to the kitchen', 'I'll donate if you screen bj me live' and other lewd sexual act comments.

There is clearly an environment they are growing up in that either subconsciously or actively encourages that kind of behavior to be the acceptable kind of response to women who so much as have the 'gall' to put on full foundation makeup and brightly colored lipstick.
And if that kind of observation makes you immediately jump to 'oh so you are saying all men support this?' when that's clearly what they aren't saying than we have a lot bigger issues on our hands to deal with before we tackle this mess of a discussion that should of begun and ended with. 'If the person didn't explicitly ask you to be a sex perv don't fucking drop that shit in stream.'

Instead it seems easier to have 3 paragraph think pieces about why women with a lowcut or presenting themselves as conventionally attractive deserves to be sent gross comments like 'let me jizz on your tits'.

altnameJag:

proxyhostlawl:

altnameJag:

*Rubs temples* And I was able to go on Twitch just now and find ladies who do the headcam thing too. Christ, even you know this is a bad argument, what with the "Not that this is indicative of streamers as a whole".

It's a sad day when the kotaku article that got linked in the OP is making your arguments better than you are.

You said similar behavior. I pointed out there existed a difference between behaviors. Hell if you had read my other posts here you would have seen I did bring up the female streamers who did not boobie cam and how, in my experience, they tended to not have a chat problem. So are you going to continue to ignore my points in favor a faux moral outrage or address them?

What points? That because some women act a certain way, we can discount the entire issue?

Shit, last time I saw "comparison" pictures like that, "hardcore" gamers were pitching a fit over "fake girl gamers".

EDIT:

proxyhostlawl:

Or we see men not a group libel for the actions of minority, whom no one can control, but as individuals. So where some see men others see trolls. Kind of key difference.

"Now let me tell you why Twitch chat being heavily gendered isn't an issue because some female streamers are boobie streamers."

Faux moral outrage it is then.
First:
Can you please lay off this guy? image
Second:
My point, not Strawman's, is thus; when you engage in certain actions you assume certain risks. In this case selling your twitch/stream by your sexual characteristics. Which will attract a certain kind of of audience. Not one necessarily interested in the game being played but rather in said sexual characteristics on display. (And attraction to sexual characteristics is an innate human trait.) Combine that with the nature of the internet and you have that chat "problem". If females wish do that, boobie stream, I really don't care. All the power to them. But it does have risks that you assume when you engage.

Now if a female does not boobie stream and gets the chat "problem", that is a problem. Because said female is not trying to attract said audience. Just of course they are. I cannot assume their, female, intent. But in my experience that, non boobie stream streamer getting boobie streamer chat "problem", tends not to happen. Which does feed into my point about actions and all that. Might be my own bias.

Third:
In regards to the chat "problem" itself. I do not find to be a "male" issue. I find it to be a "troll/perv" issue. Which is not my responsibility nor does it need "boys" to be purged of their "toxic masculinity". Assholes gonna asshole ya. Learn to deal or grow up. At least that is how I view it. In this case mod your damn chat. And that makes your stream not popular/not work maybe you are doing it wrong.

Dragonbums:

proxyhostlawl:

Or we see men not a group libel for the actions of minority,

And yet when someone points out that the men are the majority aggressors with this kind of behavior- the first response isn't
some shit like 'When I see that kind of behavior in stream, I tell them to quit' but find multitudes of reasons for why the recipient of said harassment is at fault or 'asking for it'.
I would like to point out that the reason why we don't crassly call any gay person who so much as exists on streams 'faggot' and other such homophobic language is because 'straight people' didn't find 10 million reasons for #notallheteros or how it's somehow the queer persons fault for being too queer and baiting homophobes. It was because we recognized how it's a shitty thing period and told the people doing that shit that it was not only unacceptable behavior but will not be tolerated.

I am not a moral guardian. I do not care. To each their own. I'll leave it up to the streamer in question to handle how she sees fit. Same I would a dick-streamer or male streamers.

Hell in this thread we have people saying we should raise boys different because of the actions of a few. Plus some hand waving about some vague "society" and "toxic" behaviors.

That isn't what they said at all. What the user said was that there has to be a reason why men and young male preteens are much more predisposed to to leave crass, gross and unruly comments towards women in gaming streams as opposed to their female counterparts.
If women want to gush about how hot Markiplier is for example- most of the comments are relegated to fangirl crap like 'Aaaah so cute/sexy!', 'We love you!!:D' the works. A woman streamer does the same shit and it's nothing but 'show me your tits', 'go back to the kitchen', 'I'll donate if you screen bj me live' and other lewd sexual act comments.

There is clearly an environment they are growing up in that either subconsciously or actively encourages that kind of behavior to be the acceptable kind of response to women who so much as have the 'gall' to put on full foundation makeup and brightly colored lipstick.

That's is your assumption. Maybe boys and girls, are get this, just different? Maybe just maybe. I mean it not lot a majority of boys engage in said actions either. So your point is? I am honestly not getting it.

And if that kind of observation makes you immediately jump to 'oh so you are saying all men support this?'

Then maybe the problem lies in the person making the claim. Mayhaps they should refine it?

when that's clearly what they aren't saying than we have a lot bigger issues on our hands to deal with before we tackle this mess of a discussion that should of begun and ended with. 'If the person didn't explicitly ask you to be a sex perv don't fucking drop that shit in stream.'

Instead it seems easier to have 3 paragraph think pieces about why women with a lowcut or presenting themselves as conventionally attractive deserves to be sent gross comments like 'let me jizz on your tits'.

Or, shocker, I expect them to be able to handle it like an adult. And deal with it how they see it. Seeing women as equal and as capable as dealing with BS as men. What a novel concept...

proxyhostlawl:

Third:
In regards to the chat "problem" itself. I do not find to be a "male" issue. I find it to be a "troll/perv" issue. Which is not my responsibility nor does it need "boys" to be purged of their "toxic masculinity". Assholes gonna asshole ya.

There's a standup bit by Chris Rock that I think is applicable here. People who are mad (or in this case, are jerks) are going to use anything they can to express that anger. If you have one leg, they're going to mention the missing leg. "Is that why you can't drive? You only got one leg?" It's nothing personal, they're just drawing material from what's available to them.

The point being that jerks are going to use the easiest, most efficient way to get a reaction out of someone. If they have a genitalia that someone else lacks, they're going to use that as ammo. If someone is a different gender than them, they're going to use that as ammo. If someone has a disability, or pink hair, or money, or a lack of money, they're going to use that. They're going to use whatever is available to them. Turns out, gender is one of those easily-graspable low-hanging fruits.

"Teaching men not to catcall on the internet" or whatever people plan on doing to children in grade school isn't going to stop them from being jerks. At most, it'll stop them from using gender as ammo for their insults, which means they'll just have to draw ammo from elsewhere.

Houseman:

proxyhostlawl:

Third:
In regards to the chat "problem" itself. I do not find to be a "male" issue. I find it to be a "troll/perv" issue. Which is not my responsibility nor does it need "boys" to be purged of their "toxic masculinity". Assholes gonna asshole ya.

There's a standup bit by Chris Rock that I think is applicable here. People who are mad (or in this case, are jerks) are going to use anything they can to express that anger. If you have one leg, they're going to mention the missing leg. "Is that why you can't drive? You only got one leg?" It's nothing personal, they're just drawing material from what's available to them.

The point being that jerks are going to use the easiest, most efficient way to get a reaction out of someone. If they have a genitalia that someone else lacks, they're going to use that as ammo. If someone is a different gender than them, they're going to use that as ammo. If someone has a disability, or pink hair, or money, or a lack of money, they're going to use that. They're going to use whatever is available to them. Turns out, gender is one of those easily-graspable low-hanging fruits.

"Teaching men not to catcall on the internet" or whatever people plan on doing to children in grade school isn't going to stop them from being jerks. At most, it'll stop them from using gender as ammo for their insults, which means they'll just have to draw ammo from elsewhere.

Will this lead to more creative insults? Would be an improvement for LoL chat. Oh gawd the cancer in that.

proxyhostlawl:

I am not a moral guardian. I do not care. To each their own. I'll leave it up to the streamer in question to handle how she sees fit. Same I would a dick-streamer or male streamers.

I'm sorry, I didn't know it was to be a 'moral guardian' to tell your fellow chatroom peers to uphold some basic human decency when conducting themselves to another real human online.
And if you 'don't care' about the issue than you shouldn't give a shit about either side of the argument. But in this case you 'don't care' about people being rude and disrespectful but you care a lot when those on the receiving end of such comments come to the conclusion that if there is a dude on stream there is a pretty good chances they are going to leave some hot shit in chat as opposed to their female counterparts.

That's is your assumption. Maybe boys and girls, are get this, just different?

So you are saying that men, by their own inherent nature, just can't help but leave nasty comments towards attractive women on stream? And if they aren't doing that, than they are fighting against their inherent nature to some degree?

Maybe just maybe. I mean it not lot a majority of boys engage in said actions either. So your point is? I am honestly not getting it.

But the majority of men who interact with women DO those actions and by your own admission you said you clearly couldn't give a shit about that. But here you are getting your hankies in a twist when women come out of those experiences and conclude that 'all men are gross' or 'men are perverted socially inept manchildren' because as far as they are concerned this is what the majority of the men act around them regardless of their own wishes.

Then maybe the problem lies in the person making the claim. Mayhaps they should refine it?

No. Because their point was very obvious and you just decided to claim it was something entirely different.

Or, shocker, I expect them to be able to handle it like an adult.

We have been handling it 'like adults' and we also have the right to complain about it because someones gaming stream shouldn't have to be constantly moderated against idiots that can't seem to stop and think for two seconds over whether this human flesh person across the computer screen really wants to know how much I want to sperm all over their breasts.

Get fucking real. These 'handle it like adult' arguments are always full of shit. They are moderated constantly. But newsflash, people would rather not have to moderate for that to such a high degree. Especially when your male counterparts deal with it minimally or not at all.

And deal with it how they see it. Seeing women as equal and as capable as dealing with BS as men. What a novel concept...

Put that garbage back in the closet. We deal with this crap constantly, and we block, report, have mods, the whole nine fucking yards. And we still get people coming in here telling us to 'deal with it' when we have been 'dealing with it' for as long as gaming streams have existed.

Just admit that the problem isn't the fact that people are saying #allmen. Your issue is that not only are they dealing with it but they had the nerve to open their mouths and voice how they very much don't like having to deal with this shit every time they boot up the webcam because not only do you totally 'not care' about it, but people are talking about it too, and one of the solutions to solving the issues is the dreaded action of telling your fellow peers to stop being assholes when you see them being assholes.
Which is the absolute worse thing that can ever happen to someone who honest to god 'doesn't care about this whole issues, why are we still talking about this? Let me enjoy videogames without acknowledging any problems I don't care about, but hey guys why aren't we talking about things I do care about?'

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