Playstation 5.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT
 

When do you think the Playstation 5 will come out? Will it come out in 2019?

I expect it to be later than that. Particularly because of the Pro, because of Sony now doing little upgrades.

I hope it's going to be backwards compatible. Should be easier than with the PS4. I also want a new controller. I'm not expecting either of those things, though.

Ezekiel:
I expect it to be later than that. Particularly because of the Pro, because of Sony now doing little upgrades.

I hope it's going to be backwards compatible. Should be easier than with the PS4. I also want a new controller. I'm not expecting either of those things, though.

Why do you want a new controller? Or rather, what do you want to be new about it?

Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

So, it probably won't come out anytime soon?

If i had to guess, it would be in 2021. They wil probably announce it at E3 2020, and it will come out in november 2021. Thats what makes the most sense to me anyways.

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

That's a dangerous game for them to play imo. If they do that, people are going to start going the route of " I'll wait until the PS5ProXLite comes out" and that would drastically affect sales. Kind of how people wait for GOTY editions now instead of buying games day 1.

Saelune:

Ezekiel:
I expect it to be later than that. Particularly because of the Pro, because of Sony now doing little upgrades.

I hope it's going to be backwards compatible. Should be easier than with the PS4. I also want a new controller. I'm not expecting either of those things, though.

Why do you want a new controller? Or rather, what do you want to be new about it?

I think I've explained my reasons enough times. You responded to one of the threads I made about it. A problem I've complained about more recently is that I have a tendency to push L3 and R3 in the heat of the action.

Ideally, I would like a two-piece controller that lies flat, combining the benefits of a mouse and keyboard with 360 degree navigation.

But since everybody thinks controllers should be held up all the time, I'll settle for a pair of buttons on the back and the return of the "Select" button. The pad has unfixable problems, though.

Ezekiel:

Ideally, I would like a two-piece controller that lies flat, combining the benefits of a mouse and keyboard with 360 degree navigation.

But since everybody thinks controllers should be held up all the time, I'll settle for a pair of buttons on the back and the return of the "Select" button. The pad has unfixable problems, though.

The problem with a controller that lies flat is the fact that you have to have somewhere to put it.

Sure, you can put it on your lap, but then that means you have to always be in a sitting position while you're playing, but then you can't even do that with a two piece controller, because if the controller is in 2 separate parts then it would fall off your lap if you ever took your hand off of it, and holding it on your lap would be unstable.

It's kind of a terrible idea if you expect people to use it from their couch, which is why you haven't seen anything similar produced by anyone.

Dirty Hipsters:

Ezekiel:

Ideally, I would like a two-piece controller that lies flat, combining the benefits of a mouse and keyboard with 360 degree navigation.

But since everybody thinks controllers should be held up all the time, I'll settle for a pair of buttons on the back and the return of the "Select" button. The pad has unfixable problems, though.

The problem with a controller that lies flat is the fact that you have to have somewhere to put it.

Sure, you can put it on your lap, but then that means you have to always be in a sitting position while you're playing, but then you can't even do that with a two piece controller, because if the controller is in 2 separate parts then it would fall off your lap if you ever took your hand off of it, and holding it on your lap would be unstable.

It's kind of a terrible idea if you expect people to use it from their couch, which is why you haven't seen anything similar produced by anyone.

Yeah, I know. But I don't care about couch gaming. I play at a desk all the time. Even when I'm using a controller. He asked what I want, so I answered selfishly. The problem might be remedied with a lap surface, but it would need to be somewhat heavy or have legs on each side of your lap.

Playstation 5 may come out around 2021-2022. There are many thing to do on the current gen.

My guess is not anytime soon. Definitely not 2019. Sony seems content with incremental upgrades and most of their profit coming from subscription services like PSN. Also statements from Sony in the past make it unlikely PS5 is in the works(or atleast beyond any kind of conceptual phase). I also wonder how sustainable the AAA games market will be with even more powerful hardware. Already there are less and less AAA games coming out primarily b/c of development costs(that pushes pretty much everyone but the deepest of pockets out) and 3-5 year(and up) development cycles. Which means more nickel & diming the consumer and more ehmmm..Assassin's Creed. :p The PS4 install base is also huge and with Sony's emphasis on PSN it's hardly in their best interest to fragment their service(hence why they were so adamant that Pro games must also work on regular PS4).

Ofcourse Sony will look how the Scorpio performs and if it has huge success both in sales and exclusive games developed for it adapt their strategy but considering the meandering first and third party support for the One I don't see that happening. MS seems to really live in the illusion that if they create the most powerful hardware then developers will come...ehmm no. :p

3-4 year after the PS4 pro, so late 2019 to late 2020 would be my guess.

Neither the PS4 Pro nor the Xbonks are truly capable of rendering games at 4k and they both struggle somewhat with 1080p60fps, they're going to sruggle more and more as games get shinier and PC hardware moves further ahead of them. Being x86-64 based machines they don't have the mythical 'optimisation' advantage the older consoles enjoyed to a degree.

4K TVs are under the magic ?500 mark now so they will become more and more common in the next couple of years, demand for 4k gaming is going to increase massively. Checkerboard rendering won't cut it once users have access to 4k all the time and get used to it, they'll notice like people notice the difference between the 720p on Xbone and 900p on PS4, so Sony will come out with a true 4k device as soon as it become practical to do so.

I expect that to be in three years time since mid range PC cards can do 4k now.

2021 or 2022 seems about right, considering both have been upgraded and the law of diminishing returns is setting in more significantly.

Another thing is that as popular as digital distribution is, we're very likely to see at least one more round of disc-based hardware simply because it's still the standard. Bandwidth infrastructure in this country is also severely outdated and not nearly as reliable yet either.

stroopwafel:
MS seems to really live in the illusion that if they create the most powerful hardware then developers will come...ehmm no. :p

I can only assume history is something that is buried and forgotten at MS, otherwise they'd know having the console with the biggest baddest hardware does not ensure the biggest commercial success. So far, it never has.

Anyway, I think we still have some 2 or 3 years of PS4 ahead of us. Sony is in a good position right now with a large install base and a healthy supply of released/upcoming exclusives to keep thing alive.

hanselthecaretaker:
Bandwidth infrastructure in this country is also severely outdated and not nearly as reliable yet either.

And even within countries with well-developed broadband infrastructures Sony's own internet infrastructure is so shitty that people with fiber still have to wait god knows how long until their huge-ass PS4 game downloads.

Cowabungaa:

hanselthecaretaker:
Bandwidth infrastructure in this country is also severely outdated and not nearly as reliable yet either.

And even within countries with well-developed broadband infrastructures Sony's own internet infrastructure is so shitty that people with fiber still have to wait god knows how long until their huge-ass PS4 game downloads.

In my experience it really depends on the time of day. At night or early morning I can download like a 50gb game in 3 hours but in late afternoon/evening it's easily 6-7.

VG_Addict:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

So, it probably won't come out anytime soon?

Probably not, no.

Lufia Erim:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

That's a dangerous game for them to play imo. If they do that, people are going to start going the route of " I'll wait until the PS5ProXLite comes out" and that would drastically affect sales. Kind of how people wait for GOTY editions now instead of buying games day 1.

I don't know about that. A new Iphone comes out just about every year, but people roll out in droves to buy them, and they cost about $6-800. Only time will tell whether or not this slight upgrade approach will work out for consoles. If the Xbox One X sells well, we'll know what the masses want.

Captain Marvelous:

VG_Addict:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

So, it probably won't come out anytime soon?

Probably not, no.

Lufia Erim:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

That's a dangerous game for them to play imo. If they do that, people are going to start going the route of " I'll wait until the PS5ProXLite comes out" and that would drastically affect sales. Kind of how people wait for GOTY editions now instead of buying games day 1.

I don't know about that. A new Iphone comes out just about every year, but people roll out in droves to buy them, and they cost about $6-800. Only time will tell whether or not this slight upgrade approach will work out for consoles. If the Xbox One X sells well, we'll know what the masses want.

But how many people actually change their phones every year? Usually, people ride out their phones until their contract is done. Of course you have those with tons of disposable income, but thats far from the majority.

Also phones are things people use on a daily basis, where as consoles, unless you are an avid gamer ( ugh hate that term), aren't.

Furthermore, phones are things you carry with you when you go outside. A peice of technology that you take with you, and more importantly, that other people see. So having the new a shiny phone that others can see, is somewhat a sign of status. Like expensive jewlery or clothing, people see it and think they have money.

And while phones do cost 600-800$, most people don't pay that price up front, the fees for the phone are included in the monthly payments of the contract, so they are kind of "hidden". People don't feel like they are paying 800$ for a phone. Whereas a console you need to pay 500 $ up front which definitely hurts more. I'm willing to bet, a lot of people aren't even aware of the cost of their phones. Because when you think about it we end up paying roughly 1600$ to phones companies over the course of 2 years, which is completely insane.

Ugh, it's not just L3 and R3 that I'm pressing by accident, now that I think about it, but also R2. I sometimes take out the secondary weapon in God of War II unintentionally. Gamepads are so dinky. Having to put your hands AROUND the little device is problematic.

this thread has been pretty educational. I had no idea the philosophy behind console generations was shifting so dynamically, but it's in line with the companies' actions for it to be so.

regardless, having played the "PS4 pro" card, they've effectively reset the timer on their generation, in my eyes. if they try to pull out a new console as early as 2019, or even 2020, they risk pissing off the people who paid new-console prices for their mid-generation upgrade.

My guess would be 2020-2021, 7 to 8 years after the launch of the PS4 seems like a good enough time.

balladbird:
regardless, having played the "PS4 pro" card, they've effectively reset the timer on their generation, in my eyes. if they try to pull out a new console as early as 2019, or even 2020, they risk pissing off the people who paid new-console prices for their mid-generation upgrade.

Seeing as the PS4 Pro is a mere resolution upgrade over the PS4 with no exclusive software, anyone going in buying a PS4 Pro, or XboXoneX for that matter, with the idea that it's a new generation is fooling themselves. Both consoles are still bound by the limitations of the base consoles sold in 2013, meaning that we are still basically in that same generation. Both consoles even still carry their base console's name.

A bit off-topic, but I'm a bit miffed that 4K has come along as this means that a lot of the additional horse power of new consoles will be used to render pictures at a higher resolution rather than to render prettier pictures. I hope that the television makers will be happy with 4K resolution for the foreseeable future and not push for an even bigger resolution in the near future.

bluegate:
snipped for management

Oh, I'm not accusing Sony of mislabeling their product. They were very upfront about what the Pro was, and it would only be the end consumer's fault if they mistook it for a new generation. The fact still remains that they were targeting an audience that largely consisted of people who already owned the vanilla PS4 with a full-cost replacement for the system, which invites discontent with their userbase if they try to do so too often. They'll find themselves in a loop where consumers will hold off on buying their new product knowing a superior offering is just a year or two away.

Not sure if I'm expressing myself well. night shifts and lack of sleep have taken their toll this morning. DX

Captain Marvelous:

VG_Addict:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

So, it probably won't come out anytime soon?

Probably not, no.

Lufia Erim:

Captain Marvelous:
Wow, you've just reminded me that the PS4 came out 7 years after the PS3. At best we'd expect a similar time frame for the next PlayStation, putting the date at holiday 2020. The average life-cycle of the PlayStation is about 6 years. But, as Ezekiel has pointed out, Sony, and Microsoft I think, have both decided that console upgrades are the way to go. At the very least, Microsoft has decided that the age of console generations is over. And I think Sony kind of agrees. So the PlayStation 5 may not be coming for a while. The Playstation 4X, on the other hand, is most likely in development right now.

That's a dangerous game for them to play imo. If they do that, people are going to start going the route of " I'll wait until the PS5ProXLite comes out" and that would drastically affect sales. Kind of how people wait for GOTY editions now instead of buying games day 1.

I don't know about that. A new Iphone comes out just about every year, but people roll out in droves to buy them, and they cost about $6-800. Only time will tell whether or not this slight upgrade approach will work out for consoles. If the Xbox One X sells well, we'll know what the masses want.

Yes but this is the iPhone...and its APPLE!!!

image

I'm still on 5s myself, and will be until it no longer functions.

if microsoft has taught me anything the next play station will fail because it doesnt have enough x's in the title

Discalmer: completely ancedotal evidence follows. I can't see many people buying a PS5 when most people I know (myself included) still view the PS3 as a next-gen console.

Here's the thing about new console generations. Console's jump a generation for only two reasons.

1. There is a big enough leap in video game tech to warrant a need for more powerful hardware in a home console. For example when we jumped from sprites to 3D based gaming, consoles needed new tech to support that new graphical need.

2. The existing generation of consoles has been streched to the breaking point where game developers simply cannot continue to advance the industry on the old hardware. This is why the PS3 and the X360 lasted for so long. Both Sony and Microsoft didn't want to push out new consoles when games were still progressing on that generation of consoles.

Notice how each new generation has started to reduce the bump in graphical fidelity. There are still some last gen games that look pretty freaking great. Final Fantasy 13 is a good example of the kind of graphical power capable by those systems. Generation 8 has been more about performance more than graphics, trying to get everything to run at 30fps locked has been a challenge because both systems tried to get away with undercutting the hardware.

Thus you have the Scorpio and the Pro, same generation of system, with a enough power to at least hit those 30 fps minimums.

As a result I doubt we are anywhere near something that could be called a "next generation" of system. Video games have kind of reached a graphical peak if I'm honest. Think of the best look games out there, it would be really hard to top that. Sure could we get more graphically amazing games? Yes, but I don't think that the investment in time and money to make that happen is really feasible now. The video game market is only so big, and revenue from a game doesn't go as far as a major film, so the investment can't be as high.

Honestly I think there wont be a next generation until something comes along that requires it. Maybe once developers figure out how to really do full AAA VR games. I could see VR being the driving force of Sony and Microsoft having to push out more powerful boxes beyond the Xbox and the Pro.

But I still think that's at least 5 years off.

Ezekiel:
Ugh, it's not just L3 and R3 that I'm pressing by accident, now that I think about it, but also R2. I sometimes take out the secondary weapon in God of War II unintentionally. Gamepads are so dinky. Having to put your hands AROUND the little device is problematic.

Compared to what though? I often have more problems accidentally hitting RMB on a mouse because of its design. A hand basically rests on/over the whole thing so technically you're constantly resisting gravity even if the device is set on a desk.

Also on a keyboard I often end up accidentally hitting a wrong key that lower left group of zxcv keys depending on the game's controls scheme. For as many keys as a keyboard allows, there are really only a handful that don't feel awkward to reach.

It's not quite like typing let's put it that way.

balladbird:

bluegate:
snipped for management

Oh, I'm not accusing Sony of mislabeling their product. They were very upfront about what the Pro was, and it would only be the end consumer's fault if they mistook it for a new generation. The fact still remains that they were targeting an audience that largely consisted of people who already owned the vanilla PS4 with a full-cost replacement for the system, which invites discontent with their userbase if they try to do so too often. They'll find themselves in a loop where consumers will hold off on buying their new product knowing a superior offering is just a year or two away.

Not sure if I'm expressing myself well. night shifts and lack of sleep have taken their toll this morning. DX

It was certainly clear enough. I think modular consoles are the only way to move forward if moving away from distinct generations of hardware. The reason people buy consoles is so they don't have to constantly mess with them, and have that sinking feeling that "their version" is never good enough. They are boxes that supply entertainment, so why add to the hassle.

Maybe if online streaming ever becomes reliable and high enough quality it won't matter, but then that opens up a whole new realm of discontent.

Case in point, console gaming should be something you have, not something you need to chase.

hanselthecaretaker:

Ezekiel:
Ugh, it's not just L3 and R3 that I'm pressing by accident, now that I think about it, but also R2. I sometimes take out the secondary weapon in God of War II unintentionally. Gamepads are so dinky. Having to put your hands AROUND the little device is problematic.

Compared to what though? I often have more problems accidentally hitting RMB on a mouse because of its design. A hand basically rests on/over the whole thing so technically you're constantly resisting gravity even if the device is set on a desk.

Also on a keyboard I often end up accidentally hitting a wrong key that lower left group of zxcv keys depending on the game's controls scheme. For as many keys as a keyboard allows, there are really only a handful that don't feel awkward to reach.

It's not quite like typing let's put it that way.

It's way harder to screw up on a keyboard and mouse once you've memorized the game's layout, most of which are simple now. You don't have one digit controlling six buttons. The buttons are also bigger. I don't think I ever, ever accidentally press down the mouse buttons.

I just remembered that I sometimes accidentally press down the Start button on my X360 controller, because it's so close to X.

Looks like I'm not the only one...

https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1629812

Post 14 makes a good point about modern L2 and R2.

Like others had said in that link though too, it's also dependent on what you're more used to at a given time. Going back and forth between kb/m and a controller will leave me ill-adjusted to either one.

For a controller, it should generally rest in the cradle of your middle, ring and pinky fingers, with the pointer fingers reserved for the shoulder buttons. The DS4 is by far the most comfortable controller I've used, but I agree the bottom trigger buttons were better on the DS2 when they were more button-like. The thing was they were still pressure-sensitive then, and probably used to better effect than most games do with these modern trigger designs.

hanselthecaretaker:
Like others had said in that link though too, it's also dependent on what you're more used to at a given time. Going back and forth between kb/m and a controller will leave me ill-adjusted to either one.

For a controller, it should generally rest in the cradle of your middle, ring and pinky fingers, with the pointer fingers reserved for the shoulder buttons. The DS4 is by far the most comfortable controller I've used, but I agree the bottom trigger buttons were better on the DS2 when they were more button-like. The thing was they were still pressure-sensitive then, and probably used to better effect than most games do with these modern trigger designs.

I know how to hold a gamepad. The modern gamepad just isn't a very good idea. It puts convenience (Convenient for SOME people. I'd be fine having it lie flat.) ahead of ergonomic design and functionality. When games were still in 2D and the gamepads had fewer inputs, it wasn't a problem. It's become convoluted. God of War II is harder than it needs to be, thanks to this dinky design. I'm in the Temple of Fates now, hard mode. Even something as simple as going into god mode becomes convoluted because it's so awkward to press the stick buttons while moving.

How could a controller be made that is both large enough and comfortable enough to hold, while still having well-placed buttons to do everything a modern game requires? You still only have 8 fingers if the thumbs are preoccupied with movement and something else, and those 8 still aren't going to readily have the other buttons covered unless they were too close together to begin with which would cause other issues like accidental presses. There is no perfect design imo.

As for rage mode I have all the games on PS3 including the portable ports, and can still count on one hand the amount of times I've accidentally activated it. Sometimes I'll even forget it's there because I don't use it much besides the last speed run I just did for 2, or for the challenges. Not saying it can't be a problem, but not sure what combination would've worked better either with current pad designs.

Button combinations are always subject to input error. I hate when fighting games do that for the face buttons which requires an akward mashing of the thumb. At least with the rage issue they can just be clicked again to turn off so it's not wasted.

hanselthecaretaker:
How could a controller be made that is both large enough and comfortable enough to hold, while still having well-placed buttons to do everything a modern game requires? You still only have 8 fingers if the thumbs are preoccupied with movement and something else, and those 8 still aren't going to readily have the other buttons covered unless they were too close together to begin with which would cause other issues like accidental presses. There is no perfect design imo.

As for rage mode I have all the games on PS3 including the portable ports, and can still count on one hand the amount of times I've accidentally activated it. Sometimes I'll even forget it's there because I just don't use it much besides the last speed run I just did for 2, or for the challenges. Not saying it can't be a problem, but not sure what combination would've worked better either with current pad designs. Button combinations are always subject to input error. At least if it does happen they can just be clicked again to turn of rage so it's not wasted.

You wouldn't expect piano keys to be held up in both hands. Or the controls to a ship. The point is, games have become much more complicated since gamepads came about, and the small shape (with six little inputs for one digit, stick buttons that you need to be wary of, and triggers that jut out and are extremely sensitive) isn't ideal anymore. It's also too limiting, using only two of five digits, and the aiming is bad. Controllers should lie flat.

image

Feels like we're stuck with this right now, instead of a proper piano.

So with controllers lying flat, aiming mechanics would always be mouse-based. That's fine, but then of course the other hand would need a second controller, because the button situation on a mouse is arguably worse than a gamepad. The left hand would likely need something that also lies flat, because just the act of holding something is going to greatly limit button options.

What we're left with is...wow, guess what...a keyboard, only perhaps augmented for gaming moreso than typing. Either way we're also left with the issue of space and practicality. A kb/mouse at a desk makes sense, but when people are expected to set up a table at their couch or some kind of lap kit to set things on...and then you're still going to deal with having to sit still and keeping it balanced so the surface doesn't interfere with your inputs...idk.

The whole reason people buy consoles is (typically) to get away from a desk. You are one of the exceptions, but it's a stretch to expect it to become the rule. I defer to my original point that there isn't really an ideal solution no matter which way the pie is sliced.

 Pages 1 2 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here