Why is LBGT/women in gaming so special?

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Okay so I've seen this kind of thing brought up, off and on, for quite some time now. There are waves of emotions (especially in gaming) when a woman or someone of the LBGT community does something in gaming. It really doesn't matter what it is, developing, writing, composing music, whatever it is, it is treated on a grand scale of some sort of achievement.

And I don't understand why.

Being gay, trans, or a woman, doesn't make you mentally handicapped. So why is something litterally no more special than "you got a job and then did that job" treated with such fanfare?

At the same time, why is that group blamed for when something goes wrong in a project?

How many times have you seen LBGT's ruined X game, or maybe worded as SJW's ruined X game? Or in terms of the latest shitty thing going on with that Alex Mencer composer fiasco. Why even bring up the fact that they are trans? Does being trans give you an excuse to be a shitty person?

To me, a persons sex, or sexual preferences shouldn't be brought up in normal news regarding things. It isn't a handicap like I said. A Trans person is just as capable of writing a good story, or making a good game as everybody else is. The fact that that person is trans of gay has nothing to do with the merits of their creativity.

Right?

To me it just seems degrading. Like, "Oh look at this wonderful story this transgender person wrote. Isn't it so special?" It's like talking like the person was 5-years-old and produced something that no other 5-year-old should be normally able to produce. It's degrading and it's stupid.

Frankly, if you make a good game you should be praised for it. And if you make a shit game, you should also be accepting of criticism for it. Regardless of gender or sexuality.

I'll let more informed people to give more specific examples, but basically someone openly LBGT faces more hurdles than the rest of the general working force. Even at getting hired it may be difficult for them if the boss thinks such reactions from the public will be a problem for the company. Why such negative overreactions happen? I don't know. But by the way those people praise and insult, I'd say they attribute to sexual masculinity a way bigger deal of self-worth than most men.

if it wasn't so special, why do people get so pissed when it happens?

people like seeing people with their traits in positions of power. If say, I were a trans-guy and wanted to get into making videogames, it's an amazing feeling to see other trans-men making games. Because that means I could do it. It becomes an achievable goal. And that goes for everything. Writing, animation, art.

also

"How many times have you seen LBGT's ruined X game, or maybe worded as SJW's ruined X game? Or in terms of the latest shitty thing going on with that Alex Mencer composer fiasco. Why even bring up the fact that they are trans? Does being trans give you an excuse to be a shitty person?"

other way mate. supporters aren't bringing up their orientation, the detractors are. its just homophobia/transphobia. "Look how these outsiders ruined our playground."

In a perfect world nobody would have cared but this is the internet where everything that can be used against you will be used (and that goes for both sides) in case it's a criticism or to promote some agenda as if those groups did something noteworthy in case it's positive.

I will say that it can be pretty annoying when a writing in a game gets shitty for some agenda like Dragon Age Inquisition when there's a trans person talking about a communistic, genocidal country is really good for trans people.

undeadsuitor:

other way mate. supporters aren't bringing up their orientation, the detractors are. its just homophobia/transphobia. "Look how these outsiders ruined our playground."

I've seen it go both ways.

But I believe a lot of the "Hardships" put on by the LBGT, and even just women, are either made up or self inflicted. Now before you yell at me, let me say this...Do I believe that women, and LBGT folks suffer through ridicule? Absolutely I do. I do believe people can treat you fucking shitty just for being different, or judging you based on looks or sex. It happens.

However I don't believe it is as much of a plague as people like to imply.

The pay gap has had countless studies that prove it's mostly made up. The reality behind that lies on two issues. Number one, is society stirring women in general towards a whole different sub-set of jobs than men. Jobs like secretary, book-keeper, accounting, "assistant" orientated jobs, which obviously don't pay as much as more men driven jobs like Sewage work, construction work, electrical, or most other "blue collar" jobs. And Number two, most surveys that show off two like professions still dont consider facts. They find a pay gap because they are looking for one, but they don't ever show data that reveals the reasoning behind that gap. For example let's take two doctors. A Male doctor who is a surgeon and a woman who is an OB/GYN. Technically these two people are both doctors, but in the example the man is going to make FAR more money than the woman because while they are both doctors they are not nearly close in skill set. Again this is an example that most "pay gap" surveys will ignore, and will simply show a pay gap between two doctors.

Plus you can't just look at raw wage numbers and know all the facts. There are a lot of factors that can affect wages. How long has that person been with that company? The rank of a said job (head plumber versus base plumber for example. Or a criminal attourny versus a civil attourney)? And so on and so on.

That isn't to say their isn't some employer bias based on a person's sex. My own company will prefer to hire men to do the warehouse work, and woman to do the book keeping. It's just something that goes on and I'm not saying that there aren't challenges.

Finally I'd like to address the "self inflicted" hurdle I mentioned above. This I feel is more upon the LBGT community mostly. And I know I am going to get yelled at for this. But please hear me out, because I really just want to understand and try to see things from a new point of view, which I cannot do if I don't share my current point of view.

I feel like the oppression and discrimination in the workforce against LBGT people is mostly due to their own behavior and even method of dress. Look regardless of what business you are going into, there is a level of professionalism required. And the sometimes outlandish style both in dress and mannerisms from the LBGT is really something that should be reigned in when trying to get and hold a typical 9 to 5 job. Look I am happy that you feel brightly colored hair is an expression of your personality, but in the workplace it simply is not professional. Not to mention that it just is distracting in the workplace. You can't be accepted while at the same time trying to call out how "different and special" you are compared to everyone else. It just doesn't work that way.

Those are the kind of things that should happen at home and in your personal life. Being gay is fine if you want to wear it like a badge of honor, but keep it at home. On top of that have the maturity to understand that most people aren't going to share your same sensibilities, (Which is true for everyone, not just LBGT folks), there are people that are uncomfortable around trans and homosexual folks. But instead of bashing them and the workplace for someone's feelings. Show compassion, and understand that if you just behave like things aren't a big deal you might find that people will come around to accepting you for who you are. But being outlandish and quick to rub it in people's faces is not going to help matters.

I'll tell a personal workplace story here. I recently had to hire someone to work in my warehouse, which is heavy lifting all day every day. It's hard work and there is no two ways about it. One of the people I called in for an interview had an amazing resume for what I needed, they knew shipping programs, they knew how to drive a forklift, they had experience. They were EVERYTHING I could want in a new warehouse person. When this person showed up, I learned that they were a trans-woman. She came in wearing a dress and very politely told me that they were trans as they wanted to get it out up front. I nodded and dismissed it because it wasn't important. I told the person about the job, I warned them about the heavy physical labor involved and she insisted it was no big deal because they've done it before.

Great I said and told her to come in the next day to start. (I hadn't had any better qualified applicants).

The problems started on day one when this person showed up to work in a warehouse wearing a tank top and a skirt. For a warehouse job. I sighed and bit my lip because I didn't want to say anything, but I had too because her attire was both not appropriate for the job, but also unsafe. I asked her to go home and put on a t-shirt and jeans at the very least because skirts could get caught in things around the warehouse. For safety reasons obviously. Then she huffed and said that she had WARNED me that she was transgender before we even continued the interview and I should have known about this. I insisted that her gender didn't matter to me, her SAFETY did and she could not wear unsafe clothing in my warehouse.

So she said forget it and took off.

Which has kind of lead me to making this thread in the first place. I just don't understand how someone can act like that and expect to have any kind of job. I do not believe a person's gender or sexual orientation should grant them special treatment. Be a responsible adult and be professional. This person acted like a child, and used her trans status as some kind of special privilege card which I feel is a card LBGT people use far too heavily and it leads to stuff like being praised for simply having a job.

Unless the praise is, "Congrats on getting a job and not fucking it up by being a selfcentered snowflake".

undeadsuitor:
if it wasn't so special, why do people get so pissed when it happens?

Because Devs tend to use it to try and shield themselves from criticism, can't pick apart that, or you're homophobic, and the ones that don't are generally using it to virtue signal.

Games have had gay characters for ages now man, it's only been recently that devs have been bragging about it, and that people have been getting really sick of it.

inu-kun:

I will say that it can be pretty annoying when a writing in a game gets shitty for some agenda like Dragon Age Inquisition when there's a trans person talking about a communistic, genocidal country is really good for trans people.

Also this.

Metalix Knightmare:

undeadsuitor:
if it wasn't so special, why do people get so pissed when it happens?

Because Devs tend to use it to try and shield themselves from criticism, can't pick apart that, or you're homophobic, and the ones that don't are generally using it to virtue signal.

Games have had gay characters for ages now man, it's only been recently that devs have been bragging about it, and that people have been getting really sick of it.

uhhuh

sure

keep in mind we're talking about LGBT creators, not characters. so please keep on topic and keep your prescripted card replies in your pocket.

want to reply to the rest of my post about LGBT creators and why they're held up as important?

undeadsuitor:

Metalix Knightmare:

undeadsuitor:
if it wasn't so special, why do people get so pissed when it happens?

Because Devs tend to use it to try and shield themselves from criticism, can't pick apart that, or you're homophobic, and the ones that don't are generally using it to virtue signal.

Games have had gay characters for ages now man, it's only been recently that devs have been bragging about it, and that people have been getting really sick of it.

uhhuh

sure

keep in mind we're talking about LGBT creators, not characters. so please keep on topic and keep your prescripted card replies in your pocket.

want to reply to the rest of my post about LGBT creators and why they're held up as important?

Okay, They aren't. At least no more than any other dev. In fact, pretty much the only time I ever recall a dev's sexuality being brought up was when Gone Home was still a thing, and surprise surprise, one of the devs tried to defend against people criticizing the game by pointing out another dev on the team was gay.

No one gives a flying crap if the people making games are gay or not as long as the stuff they make is good.

CritialGaming:
*Face Palm*

I'm going to make a wild guess and say you're a white male?

It's easy to misunderstand (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) when "people not like yourself" try and share their experiences and perceptions in positions that aren't the traditional seats of authority and power those of your ilk have enjoyed forever.

You used a lot of words to amount to little more than vague, broad and uniformed assumptions. If you honestly think the exception examples you've "cited" are actually the rules flying in the face of the gender/racial disparities that have permeated throughout society since time immemorial, then I feel sorry for you.

CritialGaming:
tl;dr anecdote

I once hired a guy who came to work in a tank top when he was told (and provided) a collared shirt, and then got mad and quit when we sent him home to change. Ergo, all of men's problems are self inflicted and they wouldn't have any if they just did what everyone told them to.

Make sense? Doesn't change the fact that gaming culture has a lot of homophobia and transphobia bubbling under the surface, and if anyone ever screws up we'll make damn sure their gender and orientation are involved. A woman whose a bad writer isn't a bad writer, she's a female bad writer, and obviously she was only hired because she's a woman! etc etc

I dont know how the wage gap came into this. Remember (and Im sure you do, since this is your thread) this is a discussion about why LGBT creators are given praise. I think we've derailed this discussion enough as it is. Might if we get back on that?

CritialGaming:
Okay so I've seen this kind of thing brought up, off and on, for quite some time now. There are waves of emotions (especially in gaming) when a woman or someone of the LBGT community does something in gaming. It really doesn't matter what it is, developing, writing, composing music, whatever it is, it is treated on a grand scale of some sort of achievement.

And I don't understand why.

Being gay, trans, or a woman, doesn't make you mentally handicapped. So why is something litterally no more special than "you got a job and then did that job" treated with such fanfare?

I think it's along the same lines as women seeking recognition in the film industry, and other fields. It's an area of life that they don't get much notice or acknowledgement, and having it openly recognized is something of a moral boost for them. It's tiny steps towards them being normalized, and for their life experiences to be openly displayed in entertainment, instead of constantly ignored or overlooked. Given the small amount of it that reflects their life (or even just acknowledges them as existing in the first place), compared to the overall amount of material produced, it's rare for them to have an example they can get behind, watch and support. So, when they are acknowledged, for them, it's a big deal.

And for the company/team/band/label/etc to openly welcome them, and acknowledge them, again, is a moral boost for them. It helps them, one example at a time, to feel like they ARE accepted as they are, and not ostracized, criticized, and marginalized by society. You know, with things like laws that prohibit them from being able to marry, adopt, leave last wills to their partner in case they die, and a bevy of other little things, that all add up to a not-so-subtle statement by society of "we don't consider you equal to us, in rights or benefits, or public exposure".

Or at least that's my take on it, from the various sources I've heard who chime in on the discussion.

undeadsuitor:

CritialGaming:
tl;dr anecdote

I once hired a guy who came to work in a tank top when he was told (and provided) a collared shirt, and then got mad and quit when we sent him home to change. Ergo, all of men's problems are self inflicted and they wouldn't have any if they just did what everyone told them to.

Make sense? Doesn't change the fact that gaming culture has a lot of homophobia and transphobia bubbling under the surface, and if anyone ever screws up we'll make damn sure their gender and orientation are involved. A woman whose a bad writer isn't a bad writer, she's a female bad writer, and obviously she was only hired because she's a woman! etc etc

I dont know how the wage gap came into this. Remember (and Im sure you do, since this is your thread) this is a discussion about why LGBT creators are given praise. I think we've derailed this discussion enough as it is. Might if we get back on that?

Fair enough. Apologizes.

To be fair I do still think it is brought up because of the actual group involved though. Remember Twilight? I do. And I remember hundreds of people saying that Stephanie Meyer was a shit writer. But I never once remember seeing anyone say she was a shit Female writer. Just writer.

It isn't until very recently that LBGT/female creaters started waving around their gender/orientation like it meant their work wasn't shit. As per the Gone Home example posted by Metalix.

In fact I'd go so far as to say this wasn't a thing pre-gamergate. At least as far as I can remember.

Look LBGT people and women have been involved in making games since the very beginning. The only reason it is so special now is because people are making it special when it absolutely shouldn't be.

Xprimentyl:

CritialGaming:
*Face Palm*

I?m going to make a wild guess and say you?re a white male?

It?s easy to misunderstand (I?ll give you the benefit of the doubt) when ?people not like yourself? try and share their experiences and perceptions in positions that aren?t the traditional seats of authority and power those of your ilk have enjoyed forever.

You used a lot of words to amount to little more than vague, broad and uniformed assumptions. If you honestly think the exception examples you?ve ?cited? are actually the rules flying in the face of the gender/racial disparities that have permeated throughout society since time immemorial, then I feel sorry for you.

I'm not saying they are rules by any stretch. I'm actually saying I don't know anything about this. And am only using what little experience I have in these matters to explain myself.

Posts like yours don't help me understand. They read little more than "Psh typical Cis-man, go back to your ignorance fool!" Which doesn't help anyone now does it?

I didn't catch all the details of the Alex Mauer fiasco. I think the reason her being trans was braught up was because a) some people poster transphobic comments about her or in response to her actions and b) she brought it up in relation to some old picture of her somebody posted. That whole situation was and still is exceptionally toxic though.

I think you should be careful here though. I expect there are probably all sorts of women and lgbt people working on games that we don't hear about, or at least not as being female or lgbt. But you don't remember the examples of that not being mentioned because how would you know about it in that case.

The particular reason you've heard a lot of this recently is that we seem to be in the middle of a lot of discussion in the west about women and lgbt issues. Maybe in a decade this'll be better and there will be less of a focus on these matters. For now though, I expect that they'll be brought up occasionally, sometimes relevant, sometimes not and sometimes with overstated relevance.

Are you really asking why there's sexism and discrimination?

I don't know, people are reactionary. And a lot of times those reactions are centered around the easiest distinctions, like 'you're a girl/you're short/you're a foreigner/you're gay'.

Why are straight white men so special that they always need to have the majority of everything?

Why do people get so intensely angry or so bafflingly confused by the idea that maybe straight white men don't always need to be the solely represented face of literally everything ever?

It sounds like you had a bad experience with an individual trans person... and that does suck.

But as I have been led to understand, trans people don't have a hive mind, nor are they all facing exactly the same things in life.

So, try not to let this experience jade you to any future encounters. As far as you have explained, you seem to have been in the right. Rest easy in that knowledge, and move on.

It's about rejecting labels and groups, and taking on people for who they are as individuals.

Because as a lady who had to spend her whole childhood watching commercial after commercial looking at dudes play games, go into arcades and seeing dudes, and have it be perceived to me that it's nothing but a bunch of dudes is really infuriating and shitty.

Why aren't there more women and people of the LGBT community in gaming?

That isn't a rhetorical question. The only explanation I can come up with is that gaming, as a whole, has an image problem. It might be because they don't feel welcomed, and when some lady or LGBT person makes it into that community as either a dev somewhere, or as a streamer/Youtuber then it's a good sign that things are changing for the better. Some people have a problem with that, and that's why it's a big damn deal when a non-straight white dude makes it.

Optics man, they really tell a lot.

CritialGaming:

I feel like the oppression and discrimination in the workforce against LBGT people is mostly due to their own behavior and even method of dress. Look regardless of what business you are going into, there is a level of professionalism required. And the sometimes outlandish style both in dress and mannerisms from the LBGT is really something that should be reigned in when trying to get and hold a typical 9 to 5 job. Look I am happy that you feel brightly colored hair is an expression of your personality, but in the workplace it simply is not professional. Not to mention that it just is distracting in the workplace. You can't be accepted while at the same time trying to call out how "different and special" you are compared to everyone else. It just doesn't work that way.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

I worked for decades in the hospitality, where I would estimate about 30% of my co-workers were LBGT. But they didn't dress outlandishly, they didn't have any unusual mannerisms, there was nothing to reign in. I bet you've gone out for dinner and been served by LBGT waiters and you wouldn't have had a fucking clue. That cashier at the supermarket was gay, and you didn't know. Your lawyer could be LBGT. Heck, your priest could be LBGT. LBGT people are as professional as everybody else.

This is absolutely bizarre. People are not walking-talking stereotypes.

I'll tell a personal workplace story here. I recently had to hire someone to work in my warehouse, which is heavy lifting all day every day. It's hard work and there is no two ways about it. One of the people I called in for an interview had an amazing resume for what I needed, they knew shipping programs, they knew how to drive a forklift, they had experience. They were EVERYTHING I could want in a new warehouse person. When this person showed up, I learned that they were a trans-woman. She came in wearing a dress and very politely told me that they were trans as they wanted to get it out up front. I nodded and dismissed it because it wasn't important. I told the person about the job, I warned them about the heavy physical labor involved and she insisted it was no big deal because they've done it before.

Perhaps if you spent less time "noticing she was a trans-woman" and more time explaining what the dress-code was you could have avoided what eventually happened.

Great I said and told her to come in the next day to start. (I hadn't had any better qualified applicants).

The problems started on day one when this person showed up to work in a warehouse wearing a tank top and a skirt. For a warehouse job.

You use the word "problems." But there was only a single "problem." And that problem was that your employee came to work not dressed in the correct dress code.

I sighed and bit my lip because I didn't want to say anything, but I had too because her attire was both not appropriate for the job, but also unsafe. I asked her to go home and put on a t-shirt and jeans at the very least because skirts could get caught in things around the warehouse. For safety reasons obviously. Then she huffed and said that she had WARNED me that she was transgender before we even continued the interview and I should have known about this. I insisted that her gender didn't matter to me, her SAFETY did and she could not wear unsafe clothing in my warehouse.

As the employer health and safety is your responsibility. And that responsibility starts even before your employee starts work. If her safety actually mattered to you, you would have told her the workwear requirements the day you hired her. You would have done a health and safety induction before she stepped onto the workplace. But you didn't do that: and if you did the same thing to me I would have walked off the job as well. You need to step up and take responsibility for your part in this. Have you changed your processes to make sure that this won't happen again in the future?

Which has kind of lead me to making this thread in the first place. I just don't understand how someone can act like that and expect to have any kind of job.

And I'm left wondering how people can act like you and still be an employer. Life is so hard for the privileged.

starbear:

CritialGaming:

I feel like the oppression and discrimination in the workforce against LBGT people is mostly due to their own behavior and even method of dress. Look regardless of what business you are going into, there is a level of professionalism required. And the sometimes outlandish style both in dress and mannerisms from the LBGT is really something that should be reigned in when trying to get and hold a typical 9 to 5 job. Look I am happy that you feel brightly colored hair is an expression of your personality, but in the workplace it simply is not professional. Not to mention that it just is distracting in the workplace. You can't be accepted while at the same time trying to call out how "different and special" you are compared to everyone else. It just doesn't work that way.

What in the fuck are you talking about?

I worked for decades in the hospitality, where I would estimate about 30% of my co-workers were LBGT. But they didn't dress outlandishly, they didn't have any unusual mannerisms, there was nothing to reign in. I bet you've gone out for dinner and been served by LBGT waiters and you wouldn't have had a fucking clue. That cashier at the supermarket was gay, and you didn't know. Your lawyer could be LBGT. Heck, your priest could be LBGT. LBGT people are as professional as everybody else.

This is absolutely bizarre. People are not walking-talking stereotypes.

I think he thinks all of them are like this in the work place.

Because gaming seriously suffers from a bad case of being a boys club and people have a tendency to celebrate milestones, which includes people breaking into industries that doesn't have a good reputation for treating people like them very well. That boy's club mentality also leads to a lot of people blaming the non boys (If you don't do this I'm not talking about you so keep that in mind) ruining the boys club experience.

CritialGaming:

undeadsuitor:

CritialGaming:
tl;dr anecdote

I once hired a guy who came to work in a tank top when he was told (and provided) a collared shirt, and then got mad and quit when we sent him home to change. Ergo, all of men's problems are self inflicted and they wouldn't have any if they just did what everyone told them to.

Make sense? Doesn't change the fact that gaming culture has a lot of homophobia and transphobia bubbling under the surface, and if anyone ever screws up we'll make damn sure their gender and orientation are involved. A woman whose a bad writer isn't a bad writer, she's a female bad writer, and obviously she was only hired because she's a woman! etc etc

I dont know how the wage gap came into this. Remember (and Im sure you do, since this is your thread) this is a discussion about why LGBT creators are given praise. I think we've derailed this discussion enough as it is. Might if we get back on that?

Fair enough. Apologizes.

To be fair I do still think it is brought up because of the actual group involved though. Remember Twilight? I do. And I remember hundreds of people saying that Stephanie Meyer was a shit writer. But I never once remember seeing anyone say she was a shit Female writer. Just writer.

It isn't until very recently that LBGT/female creaters started waving around their gender/orientation like it meant their work wasn't shit. As per the Gone Home example posted by Metalix.

In fact I'd go so far as to say this wasn't a thing pre-gamergate. At least as far as I can remember.

Look LBGT people and women have been involved in making games since the very beginning. The only reason it is so special now is because people are making it special when it absolutely shouldn't be.

sure they didn't shit on Meyer's herself (no wait, they did) but lets not pretend the internet thinks good thoughts about media aimed at teenage girls

also, regardless of whether or not you saw it, it's been happening. That goes for pretty much everything.

It wasn't a thing pre-gamergate? hmmmmmm well here's a literary awards show for LGBT authors that just had its 29th annual show. thats been going on for just a wee bit before gg. just a wee bit.

this didn't start with gatorgate. GG just drug it out because it inherently hated that stuff and it's existence was proof of them ruining gaming

boys. club.

CritialGaming:

To be fair I do still think it is brought up because of the actual group involved though. Remember Twilight? I do.

Do you remember who directed the first Twilight movie? I do. It was Catherine Hardwicke. The movie made 400 million dollars in its run, but the Hardwicke wasn't invited back to direct any of the other movies in the series, and has struggled to find work in Hollywood ever since. She was replaced by a male director, and male directors directed the rest of the franchise.

There have been over 400 people nominated for an Academy Award for Best Director. 4 of those people were woman. Only one of them actually won.

Society has a problem with representation. You might not be able to see that problem: but you can't see it because you are part of the problem. You see LGBT people as some sort of cartoonish stereotype, you believe the "pay gap" is a myth, you think a random anecdote is part of a larger truth.

Watch this video. Its a youtuber, playing The Last of Us Left Behind, who is taken by surprise by a development in the plot. (Open spoilers, don't watch if you don't want to be spoiled.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmFvmBENPc0&t

And the reaction of Ashley Johnson when she talks about watching this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiB_DzutSc4

Representation matters. It might not matter to you. But the lesbians and the gays are not coming to take away your video games. Its a character here, its a kiss there, and you only have to look away from the screen for a couple of seconds to safely ignore it if it bothers you. But for millions of people out there in the world, having people on screen that looks like them, that talks like them, that love the same people as they do, to see that people care enough to let them be represented means a hell of a lot. So stop trying to take that away from them.

I just care if a game is good or bad, the group the creators belong to is rather besides the point. For example, horizon zero dawn was a fun game, some may wanna call it "sjw" influenced but either way, if more games like that were to be made and fewer autistic screaming videos, the "sjw" brand would improve.

This is the place where I am firmly outside of both "sides" in this fight, if a game is good, that should override whatever stupid political message you may dislike out of how good it is and if you claim to be a gamer you should look past it and have fun, if it ruins your fun that much when a game has an sjw tint despite being overall great you are an ideologue first and a gamer second, so own up to that.

Dreiko:
I just care if a game is good or bad, the group the creators belong to is rather besides the point. For example, horizon zero dawn was a fun game, some may wanna call it "sjw" influenced but either way, if more games like that were to be made and fewer autistic screaming videos, the "sjw" brand would improve.

This is the place where I am firmly outside of both "sides" in this fight, if a game is good, that should override whatever stupid political message you may dislike out of how good it is and if you claim to be a gamer you should look past it and have fun, if it ruins your fun that much when a game has an sjw tint despite being overall great you are an ideologue first and a gamer second, so own up to that.

I strongly agree. You took the words right out of my mouth. I never cared much for the sjw/anti sjw bullshit. As long as the game interested me, who either developed or created did not matter.

CritialGaming:

Xprimentyl:

CritialGaming:
*Face Palm*

I?m going to make a wild guess and say you?re a white male?

It?s easy to misunderstand (I?ll give you the benefit of the doubt) when ?people not like yourself? try and share their experiences and perceptions in positions that aren?t the traditional seats of authority and power those of your ilk have enjoyed forever.

You used a lot of words to amount to little more than vague, broad and uniformed assumptions. If you honestly think the exception examples you?ve ?cited? are actually the rules flying in the face of the gender/racial disparities that have permeated throughout society since time immemorial, then I feel sorry for you.

I'm not saying they are rules by any stretch. I'm actually saying I don't know anything about this. And am only using what little experience I have in these matters to explain myself.

Posts like yours don't help me understand. They read little more than "Psh typical Cis-man, go back to your ignorance fool!" Which doesn't help anyone now does it?

In your mind, the numerous studies you've "cited" and limited personal experiences are far more thorough than the experience and perceptions of people actually entrenched in the demographics who live it every, single day, so what "help" are you looking for? Your position is one of ignorance, and I don't mean that derogatorily; I mean that literally as in you don't know, but while in that position of ignorance, you've amassed what you deem to be a satisfactory a body of "evidence" that has led you to conclusions you'd dare to be proven otherwise. When you say "I believe [something]" that assigns blame and fault, it's a bold statement and not one inviting education.

The fact is we live in a heterosexual white male dominated society. Our American government is essentially a few hundred old white guys. I'd venture to guess most Fortune 500 company CEOs are white males. My direct manager AND director where I work are a couple of white guys. Hell, look at 95% of the video games on the shelf; the hero is a chiseled white guy. So, it's not that LGBT/females in gaming feel special so much as they are seeking acknowledgment and validation where they traditionally haven't gotten it. They're feeling empowered to take a white male dominated media and put their own spin on it, to have a voice where they are traditionally shouted down in lieu of Call of Duty #473. So when a white guy says "what's big deal? We've been doing that forever; why do you think you're 'special,'" and then go on to make scathing assumptions making their struggle their fault is condescending, dismissive and insulting. You can't honestly believe that the road they had to travel and your own are one in the same when history through present day directly indicates otherwise. And I'm not saying "you" as in "you specifically;" I don't know you from Adam, but as a heterosexual half-black half-Hispanic male, I'm willing to assume that if you and I were walking together somewhere in the deep south at 3am, the road I'd be walking would be a lot scarier than yours...

And no, I'm no "SJW;" I don't have time to get caught up in the politicking and policing of the minutiae and can agree that sometimes, people can senselessly go too far seeking equality where no one is trying to deny it; I just think we need to acknowledge the differences and disparities of the reality we all share instead of acting like they're figments of vindictive people's imagination because they are very real with very real effects, big and small, seen and unseen, throughout our society.

shrekfan246:
Why are straight white men so special that they always need to have the majority of everything?

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

CoCage:

Dreiko:
I just care if a game is good or bad, the group the creators belong to is rather besides the point. For example, horizon zero dawn was a fun game, some may wanna call it "sjw" influenced but either way, if more games like that were to be made and fewer autistic screaming videos, the "sjw" brand would improve.

This is the place where I am firmly outside of both "sides" in this fight, if a game is good, that should override whatever stupid political message you may dislike out of how good it is and if you claim to be a gamer you should look past it and have fun, if it ruins your fun that much when a game has an sjw tint despite being overall great you are an ideologue first and a gamer second, so own up to that.

I strongly agree. You took the words right out of my mouth. I never cared much for the sjw/anti sjw bullshit. As long as the game interested me, who either developed or created did not matter.

People confuse the fact that we have this stance for all games with being with or against a certain side, which I guess can't be helped if it's primarily one side that causes people to rise up against it, but as long as we stand firm in defending good games, whether they be full of pantyshots or of empowered lesbian landwhales, gaming will win out in the end.

Xprimentyl:
snip

Fair enough. I'm the first to admit that my experience is limited, and it is also why I ask the questions. The problem I often have is that you can't ask questions or make any statements based on personal experience without getting attacked for it. Which I don't believe is helpful to anyone on either side of this social issue.

It's one of the reason why I think feminism struggles, because the majority of people that see feminism on the news or in articles or where ever, you typically only see the bat shit crazy people who don't have any point to make. Those feminist extremist only ever seem to attack people and never actually illustrate their points and/or how their issues can be addressed. I suppose this is mostly the mainstream media's fault because it's easy view fodder.

But it does color people's views. Look people are lazy, and they aren't going to pursue any issue that might be uncomfortable for them. They'll take what they see in the news as gospel and let that color their opinions.

I'm trying not to do that. But at the same time, I see people like Anita Sarkeesian come out and talk shit about various games for reasons that just don't make any sense. I see people attack her for spewing bullshit and to their credit a lot of what she had said (especially early videos) showed that the had little to no research beyond what she wanted to find, and zero respect for the media she dared to critique. People didn't need to attack her, and their anger and outrage is the only reason she ever gained traction in the first place. She Trolled people, and perhaps it was all on purpose, so that she could play the victim card and generate fame from it. Perhaps the worse thing about her was she used her cause to create a position of wealth of herself, and not to actually help her cause.

I see people make statements that a subtle trans character in Mass Effect Andromedia is total bullshit and Bioware knows nothing about the Trans-plight. Which may be correct, and completely off-base as a character. But I can't help but sit back and go, "At least they fucking tried." For a community trying to get themselves included in gaming, you'd think the LBGT community would at least be a little more forgiving. I'm not saying no critique, but don't let it become outrage. Developers are trying to make you happy, and in a lot of ways it's like me in this very thread.

Developers, and I, are trying to understand. But we'll never understand, nor will we continue to try to understand if everytime we try to open our mind to your issues we get attacked for it.

Am I that off-base?

CritialGaming:

It's one of the reason why I think feminism struggles, because the majority of people that see feminism on the news or in articles or where ever, you typically only see the bat shit crazy people who don't have any point to make. Those feminist extremist only ever seem to attack people and never actually illustrate their points and/or how their issues can be addressed. I suppose this is mostly the mainstream media's fault because it's easy view fodder.

Did you consider my posts to be an "attack" on you? Did you not think I illustrated my points and told you ways your issues could be addressed? If you thought that was an attack, was that my fault, your fault, or the mainstream media's fault?

But it does color people's views. Look people are lazy, and they aren't going to pursue any issue that might be uncomfortable for them. They'll take what they see in the news as gospel and let that color their opinions.

Does people confronting you on your views make you feel uncomfortable?

I'm trying not to do that. But at the same time, I see people like Anita Sarkeesian come out and talk shit about various games for reasons that just don't make any sense. I see people attack her for spewing bullshit and to their credit a lot of what she had said (especially early videos) showed that the had little to no research beyond what she wanted to find, and zero respect for the media she dared to critique.

Anita Sarkeesian never "talked shit" about various games. She critiqued them. And her critiques made sense. And she did plenty of research.

People didn't need to attack her, and their anger and outrage is the only reason she ever gained traction in the first place. She Trolled people, and perhaps it was all on purpose, so that she could play the victim card and generate fame from it. Perhaps the worse thing about her was she used her cause to create a position of wealth of herself, and not to actually help her cause.

Do you actually want to understand the "other side?" Because you've regurgitated talking points that bare no relation to reality. She didn't troll people. She didn't play the victim card. This is utter nonsense.

I see people make statements that a subtle trans character in Mass Effect Andromedia is total bullshit and Bioware knows nothing about the Trans-plight. Which may be correct, and completely off-base as a character. But I can't help but sit back and go, "At least they fucking tried." For a community trying to get themselves included in gaming, you'd think the LBGT community would at least be a little more forgiving. I'm not saying no critique, but don't let it become outrage. Developers are trying to make you happy, and in a lot of ways it's like me in this very thread.

So you are allowed to express your opinion that "the oppression and discrimination in the workforce against LBGT people is mostly due to their own behavior and even method of dress" but the LBGT community shouldn't complain about a poor examples of LBGT people in gaming. Can you even begin to see how hypocritical you are? Why are you allowed to express an opinion but other people are not?

Developers, and I, are trying to understand. But we'll never understand, nor will we continue to try to understand if everytime we try to open our mind to your issues we get attacked for it.

Critique is not an attack. Saying something was badly done is not an attack. Giving a movie or a video game a bad review is not an attack. Change doesn't happen unless people speak out. Are you open to understanding the issues? Based on your postings in this thread I don't think you are. That wasn't an attack. Its an observation.

Am I that off-base?

You aren't even on the same planet.

starbear:

Does people confronting you on your views make you feel uncomfortable?

Yes. Confronting anyone's views makes them uncomfortable. Why to you think it is so difficult to debate religion with people. The moment you challenge what a person believes to be true, they struggle to accept what might be a different viewpoint or a different "truth".

As for the LBGT community critiquing the use of LBGT characters in games. No I'm not saying they shouldn't say anything. I'm saying that the critique is usually not constructive. The problem is that they don't critique, they condemn, and when you do that nothing can get better.

People have feelings right? And creative people tend to be very defensive of their works. So when you bash on something under the guise of "critique" you need to be very careful. What ends up happening is that Developers and publishers stop taking those risks that they are barely willing to take in the first place. There is a difference between critique (even harsh critique) and outright bashing. Which is a line people have a hard time finding. I myself have been guilty of that line a few times I'm sure.

So yes the LBGT community should be a little more please that the industry is even willing to try. And when a LBGT character appears in a game, don't bash it outright for the things it does wrong. Critique it, talk about the good and the bad. Acknowledge that the industry is trying and give pointers on what could be done better. The LBGT community is fighting for acceptance, so I think there needs to be a gentler, almost "easing" in approach to how they critique things in media that relate direct to them. Because going at the industry too hard is only going to make the industry take steps backwards and that's not what anyone wants.

Right?

CritialGaming:
Yes. Confronting anyone's views makes them uncomfortable. Why to you think it is so difficult to debate religion with people. The moment you challenge what a person believes to be true, they struggle to accept what might be a different viewpoint or a different "truth".

If you recoil at having your opinions challenged, that means you're not secure in them. People with courage in their convictions are able to maintain a cool head when their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are challenged.

BeetleManiac:

CritialGaming:
Yes. Confronting anyone's views makes them uncomfortable. Why to you think it is so difficult to debate religion with people. The moment you challenge what a person believes to be true, they struggle to accept what might be a different viewpoint or a different "truth".

If you recoil at having your opinions challenged, that means you're not secure in them. People with courage in their convictions are able to maintain a cool head when their thoughts, ideas and beliefs are challenged.

True enough, but that rarely is the case.

CritialGaming:
True enough, but that rarely is the case.

You do recognize that this applies to you as well, yes?

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