Why is LBGT/women in gaming so special?

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BeetleManiac:

CritialGaming:
True enough, but that rarely is the case.

You do recognize that this applies to you as well, yes?

Yep 90.34% of the time. :D.

Deleted

CritialGaming:

Xprimentyl:
snip

Fair enough. I'm the first to admit that my experience is limited, and it is also why I ask the questions. The problem I often have is that you can't ask questions or make any statements based on personal experience without getting attacked for it. Which I don't believe is helpful to anyone on either side of this social issue.

It's one of the reason why I think feminism struggles, because the majority of people that see feminism on the news or in articles or where ever, you typically only see the bat shit crazy people who don't have any point to make. Those feminist extremist only ever seem to attack people and never actually illustrate their points and/or how their issues can be addressed. I suppose this is mostly the mainstream media's fault because it's easy view fodder.

But it does color people's views. Look people are lazy, and they aren't going to pursue any issue that might be uncomfortable for them. They'll take what they see in the news as gospel and let that color their opinions.

I'm trying not to do that. But at the same time, I see people like Anita Sarkeesian come out and talk shit about various games for reasons that just don't make any sense. I see people attack her for spewing bullshit and to their credit a lot of what she had said (especially early videos) showed that the had little to no research beyond what she wanted to find, and zero respect for the media she dared to critique. People didn't need to attack her, and their anger and outrage is the only reason she ever gained traction in the first place. She Trolled people, and perhaps it was all on purpose, so that she could play the victim card and generate fame from it. Perhaps the worse thing about her was she used her cause to create a position of wealth of herself, and not to actually help her cause.

I see people make statements that a subtle trans character in Mass Effect Andromedia is total bullshit and Bioware knows nothing about the Trans-plight. Which may be correct, and completely off-base as a character. But I can't help but sit back and go, "At least they fucking tried." For a community trying to get themselves included in gaming, you'd think the LBGT community would at least be a little more forgiving. I'm not saying no critique, but don't let it become outrage. Developers are trying to make you happy, and in a lot of ways it's like me in this very thread.

Developers, and I, are trying to understand. But we'll never understand, nor will we continue to try to understand if everytime we try to open our mind to your issues we get attacked for it.

Am I that off-base?

I didn't mean my comments to come off as an attack, just a blunt stating of the facts; I'm sorry if it was taken it that way; was not my intention. I would offer that if you're genuinely curious about the root issues at play here, whether they exist in a given case or not, the better way is to open dialogue (ideally with those affected) with genuine curiosity and leave presuppositions out of it. It's more amiable to ask "What is the issue?" versus "What is their issue, because here's what I think it is."

That being said, those affected by various gender/race equality issues in gaming really should pick their battles and how they fight them. We can agree that there are militant branches on both sides of the argument, but judging the whole by the most vocal isn't fair and distracts from the core issue. Not every game that lacks the respectable ideal of any one demographic does so maliciously or intentionally, but I can also see that there is room for greater diversity and better representation of people other than the "White Knight," and I think it would behoove the industry to explore that fact in earnest. Am I saying stop production and change everything to satisfy minority groups? Not at all; I'm just saying during the brainstorming session for the next game, be open to and recognize there's an audience for something other than what's been done a billion time already, and given the responses in this and dozens of other threads/forums, the white male demographic won't care as long as the game is fun. It's a win-win.

inu-kun:

shrekfan246:
Why are straight white men so special that they always need to have the majority of everything?

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

erttheking:

inu-kun:

shrekfan246:
Why are straight white men so special that they always need to have the majority of everything?

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

India actually has a very broad range of different cultures.

McMarbles:

erttheking:

inu-kun:

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

India actually has a very broad range of different cultures.

China too, though the government tries to suppress their cultural identity.

Thigh it's funny how good a job a white guy can get if they speak barely passable Mandarin or Cantonese. It's a prestige thing for companies to have some white guys.

erttheking:

inu-kun:

shrekfan246:
Why are straight white men so special that they always need to have the majority of everything?

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

So white people don't exist in India and China? Or do you have a statistical limit to population which below it the population doesn't exist anymore?

inu-kun:

erttheking:

inu-kun:

At least for the non-gender part, because they are the majority in countries that make games. Do you criticize China and India for not having enough white people in their culture? (I'm joking, that would be a racist act)

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

So white people don't exist in India and China? Or do you have a statistical limit to population which below it the population doesn't exist anymore?

Yeah, that's what I fucking said, I said white people don't exist in India and China. Jesus fucking Christ, I said that they don't have the SAME LEVEL of mixing cultures.

erttheking:

inu-kun:

erttheking:

China and India really don't have the same level of mixing cultures that many western countries, particularly the United States, do.

So white people don't exist in India and China? Or do you have a statistical limit to population which below it the population doesn't exist anymore?

Yeah, that's what I fucking said, I said white people don't exist in India and China. Jesus fucking Christ, I said that they don't have the SAME LEVEL of mixing cultures.

That's weird, I recall being told that not including a minority means it "doesn't exist". Guess the definition is skin color dependent. You still didn't answer the question when there's enough of a minority to have a movement to show it exists in a county (when it's not european).

Also, do you agree that people shouldn't criticize Witcher 3 for not having black people because Poland have tiny amount of black people?

inu-kun:

erttheking:

inu-kun:

So white people don't exist in India and China? Or do you have a statistical limit to population which below it the population doesn't exist anymore?

Yeah, that's what I fucking said, I said white people don't exist in India and China. Jesus fucking Christ, I said that they don't have the SAME LEVEL of mixing cultures.

That's weird, I recall being told that not including a minority means it "doesn't exist". Guess the definition is skin color dependent. You still didn't answer the question when there's enough of a minority to have a movement to show it exists in a county (when it's not european).

Also, do you agree that people shouldn't criticize Witcher 3 for not having black people because Poland have tiny amount of black people?

Was that me that told you that? If so, citation needed. If not, why the fuck did you bring it up? How about to the point where it's a significant impact on that country's culture? Or am I being too absurd here because I think setting it to an arbitrary number is stupid? Oh, and by the way, this whole thing was operating on the basis that Chinese and Indian media only have Chinese and Indian people in them. I was just pointing out that western countries tend to be more racially diverse than those countries (Something that was just supposed to be an idle observation to add context, but I guess I should've known things would end up like this) but let me ask you something. Are there only Chinese and Indian characters in their media? I mean do you know? Are you an active consumer of Chinese and Indian media?

I really couldn't care less. People can criticize it for whatever they want, do you really need me to wag a finger at them for you? I mean if you think it's invalid, you think it's invalid. But it's not like the Witcher 3, for all its quality writing, is above criticism. I mean, it's not exactly a colloquial story that just happened to leak out of the country, it's a game on the international market that's very clearly basing parts of its settings on non-Polish settings. I mean Skellige is clearly based on Vikings, which isn't a very Polish concept. If you think it's not a big deal that there isn't black people in it, fine. Frankly I'm not personally bothered by it. But don't act like criticism of a lack of black people is something that can be dismissed out of hand.

erttheking:

Was that me that told you that? If so, citation needed. If not, why the fuck did you bring it up?

A school is supposed to teach kids that gay people exist

Meaning not teaching kids about gay people shows that they don't exist.

How about to the point where it's a significant impact on that country's culture?

So a country which isn't had a significant impact by trans people (which is all of them pretty much) shouldn't be told to include them?

Or am I being too absurd here because I think setting it to an arbitrary number is stupid? Oh, and by the way, this whole thing was operating on the basis that Chinese and Indian media only have Chinese and Indian people in them. I was just pointing out that western countries tend to be more racially diverse than those countries (Something that was just supposed to be an idle observation to add context, but I guess I should've known things would end up like this) but let me ask you something. Are there only Chinese and Indian characters in their media? I mean do you know? Are you an active consumer of Chinese and Indian media?

But trans people are 1% of the population so I'm trying to understand why they are included and not other minorities in other countries

Also this seems to answer quite nicely (even if a bit outdated):
http://www.imdb.com/list/ls053452392/

I really couldn't care less. People can criticize it for whatever they want, do you really need me to wag a finger at them for you? I mean if you think it's invalid, you think it's invalid. But it's not like the Witcher 3, for all its quality writing, is above criticism. I mean, it's not exactly a colloquial story that just happened to leak out of the country, it's a game on the international market that's very clearly basing parts of its settings on non-Polish settings. I mean Skellige is clearly based on Vikings, which isn't a very Polish concept. If you think it's not a big deal that there isn't black people in it, fine. Frankly I'm not personally bothered by it. But don't act like criticism of a lack of black people is something that can be dismissed out of hand.

I just asked to your opinion, which you seem to evade from. Also now we move the goal posts to international releases only?

erttheking:

I really couldn't care less. People can criticize it for whatever they want, do you really need me to wag a finger at them for you? I mean if you think it's invalid, you think it's invalid. But it's not like the Witcher 3, for all its quality writing, is above criticism. I mean, it's not exactly a colloquial story that just happened to leak out of the country, it's a game on the international market that's very clearly basing parts of its settings on non-Polish settings. I mean Skellige is clearly based on Vikings, which isn't a very Polish concept. If you think it's not a big deal that there isn't black people in it, fine. Frankly I'm not personally bothered by it. But don't act like criticism of a lack of black people is something that can be dismissed out of hand.

Now that you mention it. I am also upset that there aren't any Silver Dragons in the Witcher 3. After all, everybody knows that in the mid-late 1600's Poland was infested with Silver Dragons.

On a more serious note, one thing that is consistent with people and the whole "Diversity" in gaming thing, is that people project their sensibilities upon developers. The Witcher 3 being a good example of that. CD Projekt Red is a Polish developer and made the game based around their folklore and world building from the Witcher books. Having a diversely colored cast of characters probably never even occured to them because that particular SJW concern most likely isn't even on their radar.

The same can be applied to the Japanese developers that made blatant boob, panties, and ass fan service a major part of some of their games. It's because that's what they want and they see no moral compass problem of that kind of thing. Yet people will rally against a game like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Boobieball and see little to no response from a Japanese dev.

It just isn't part of the morality of their culture. For god's sake you can buy used underwear from vending machines. It doesn't make their culture an immoral culture, it just makes it a different one. If the fan service bothers people, then don't buy it, but dont try and convert an entire culture into conforming to your moral compass.

(not you directly obviously King. I'm speaking in generalities here)

inu-kun:
Snip

...That was such a massive leap in logic that I legit have no idea what the fuck you're trying to say. Uh. Gay people can exist without the school telling them that they do. All I was saying was that the schools were supposed to be letting the kids know that it happens. Because, you know, kids tend to not be exposed to romantic relationships of any kind at that age. So...whatever point you were trying to make there, which I legit have no idea what it was, I feel it doesn't work.

I'm not in the mood for sneak "aha gotcha" moments when I was just trying to make a casual observation. Except, you know, trans people do have a significant impact on the countries that they're in. People wouldn't be making such a big deal out of which fucking bathroom they're allowed to use if they weren't.

Hey, remember the part where I said it shouldn't come down to an arbitrary number? So do I.

And there are non-Indian actors in Indian films. Congratulations. I don't know anything about Indian films and your statement lead me to believe that there weren't non-Indians in Indian films. I thought that that was because a lack of non-Indian impact in their culture, something I thought was their decision to make because it's not a country I know really anything about, and I was just pointing out why I thought western countries were different. But it turns out they are in Indian films and this whole thing is a moot point.

My opinion is that I don't give a fuck. My opinion is also that saying that people shouldn't say certain kind of criticism is a very unproductive viewpoint that mainly goes towards not wanting to hear things that the opinion holder doesn't like. My point is that when you go to an international audience, you get exposed to international criticism. I wasn't moving the goalposts on anything because there were no goalposts to begin with.

CritialGaming:
Snip

As I said before, there was a faction in Witcher 3 based off of Vikings. There was also a faction based on the Roman Empire. Neither of these are Polish. The Wild Hunt isn't something that's Polish in origin, the first record about it was in Germany. And there's freaking Dagon, a character lifted wholesale from works by a 1920s American horror novelist. My point is that it's pretty clear that, while Witcher 3's core may be set in Polish inspiration, the game clearly isn't above taking inspiration from non-Polish sources. Therefore I don't think the concept of there being Black people in it is something that people should have never expected. If you think there's no problem with that, fine. But it's pretty baseless to act like people have no right to complain about it. That and, you know, there were actually non-white characters in previous games. And mention of a non-white country.

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Azar_Javed

Ok, let me say something right now. "Don't like it, don't buy it" is a mindset that needs to go to hell and die. Not only is it basically shutting down criticism, (Because don't like it don't buy it basically assumes that the only people complaining have not bought the game, and therefore shouldn't be complaining) but it kind of glazes over the point that you can criticize stuff in a game and still actually like it. I love Persona 5. Utterly adore it. Humor based around the female characters getting into various states of undress in order to forward the goals of the main group? When one of them was almost the victim of sexual assault? Utterly fucking tone deaf. I'd try to not base Japanese culture around that kind of stuff, it doesn't really do the culture as a whole any favors. Also you do know that the overabundance of fanservice in Japanese media is because the culture as a whole is rather sexually repressed, right? And if American culture has taught me anything, it's that you really can't be assuming that culture means that all of one nation is on board with a single concept.

I see the whole privileged majority vs. minority/SJW thing like this...

You have a board meeting with 6 people. They serve pepperoni pizza for everyone. 5 of the 6 people like pepperoni pizza. But one person likes only pineapple pizza. That person is upset and cries. The others take notice and feel bad.

So the next board meeting, most of the pizzas are still pepperoni, but there is one pineapple pizza served as well. Everyone should be happy, right?

Not necessarily. The person eating the pineapple pizza feels awkward because he/she is the only one in the room eating pineapple pizza. So he/she says that HALF the pizzas should be pineapple so that there is equal representation. And if they don't like it, then 2 pepperoni people should be kicked off the board and 2 pineapple people brought in so that there is equality.

One of the pepperoni lovers feels sorry for the pineapple lover or pretends to feel sorry for that person so he/she can pat him/herself on the back and say look at me, I stood up for the little guy. He argues vehemently on pineapple person's behalf. This is the SJW.

The other 4 are like wait, you got your pizza, wtf are y'all whining about now? And everything just goes straight to hell from there.

That pretty much sums up the modern world in a nutshell.

erttheking:

CritialGaming:
Snip

As I said before, there was a faction in Witcher 3 based off of Vikings. There was also a faction based on the Roman Empire. Neither of these are Polish. The Wild Hunt isn't something that's Polish in origin, the first record about it was in Germany. And there's freaking Dagon, a character lifted wholesale from works by a 1920s American horror novelist. My point is that it's pretty clear that, while Witcher 3's core may be set in Polish inspiration, the game clearly isn't above taking inspiration from non-Polish sources. Therefore I don't think the concept of there being Black people in it is something that people should have never expected. If you think there's no problem with that, fine. But it's pretty baseless to act like people have no right to complain about it. That and, you know, there were actually non-white characters in previous games. And mention of a non-white country.

http://witcher.wikia.com/wiki/Azar_Javed

Ok, let me say something right now. "Don't like it, don't buy it" is a mindset that needs to go to hell and die. Not only is it basically shutting down criticism, (Because don't like it don't buy it basically assumes that the only people complaining have not bought the game, and therefore shouldn't be complaining) but it kind of glazes over the point that you can criticize stuff in a game and still actually like it. I love Persona 5. Utterly adore it. Humor based around the female characters getting into various states of undress in order to forward the goals of the main group? When one of them was almost the victim of sexual assault? Utterly fucking tone deaf. I'd try to not base Japanese culture around that kind of stuff, it doesn't really do the culture as a whole any favors. Also you do know that the overabundance of fanservice in Japanese media is because the culture as a whole is rather sexually repressed, right? And if American culture has taught me anything, it's that you really can't be assuming that culture means that all of one nation is on board with a single concept.

The "Don't like it, don't buy it" thing shouldn't die. Because there is ALWAYS someone who doesn't like something.

Porn for example. There are a lot of people who are morally and religiously opposed (not including people who watch behind closed doors) to pornography. If you were to abolish the "Don't like it, don't buy it" mindset then that is basically saying that certain things shouldn't be able to be created because they'll upset somebody.

What people need to do is grow up. And understand that things don't always have to be made for YOU. Japan's thing is that they often use anime, video games, manga, etc, as a sexual outlet. It counterbalances their culture in which they hide their desires in day to day life. And there is NOTHING wrong with the way they handle things. That's what they have established as working for them, so who are we to say they shouldn't produce that kind of media?

If you were to take away "Don't like it, don't buy it" with something like Bayonetta, and had the game changed to make Bayonetta less sexualized, or even removed from sexual metaphors completely, then you are fundamentally changing the character and the game. It wouldn't be Bayonetta anymore, but rather some twisted lump of mess that can't embrace the absurdity and fun that makes that game what it is. Bayonetta the character makes Bayonetta the game good, the combat and the story are interchangeable but Bayonetta the CHARACTER is not.

That isn't to say things should be open to criticism, because obviously that's not the case. But the has to be a line somewhere right? Some kind of line in which you have to take a step back and simply say, "You know what? This just isn't for me." I myself had this very same view point on Breath of the Wild, where I did criticize everything that pissed me off, but I also acknowledged the potential game that other people were seeing with it. Sadly I didn't "Don't like it, don't buy it" but instead "Bought it, didn't like it".

Bummer really.

CritialGaming:
Snip

There's a difference between not liking the very genre of something existing and criticism of it when it just doesn't work, and I very rarely see the former around here.

See above. And I think I've mentioned before that the Japanese people are not a homogeneous hive mind. Also there's plenty of moments where you can look at something and say that yes, there is something wrong with that. The sexualization of someone who was almost a rape victim when she is clearly not comfortable with said sexualization feels pretty effing wrong to me.

Once again you are mixing up with criticizing something for existing and criticizing something when it doesn't work. I and most other people around here are more concerned with the latter.

Because its nice to feel included in life, and people want to keep not including us LGBT people.

Stop excluding us and then we wont seem so in your face when we arent excluded.

Kerg3927:
I see the whole privileged majority vs. minority/SJW thing like this...

You have a board meeting with 6 people. They serve pepperoni pizza for everyone. 5 of the 6 people like pepperoni pizza. But one person likes only pineapple pizza. That person is upset and cries. The others take notice and feel bad.

So the next board meeting, most of the pizzas are still pepperoni, but there is one pineapple pizza served as well. Everyone should be happy, right?

Not necessarily. The person eating the pineapple pizza feels awkward because he/she is the only one in the room eating pineapple pizza. So he/she says that HALF the pizzas should be pineapple so that there is equal representation. And if they don't like it, then 2 pepperoni people should be kicked off the board and 2 pineapple people brought in so that there is equality.

One of the pepperoni lovers feels sorry for the pineapple lover or pretends to feel sorry for that person so he/she can pat him/herself on the back and say look at me, I stood up for the little guy. He argues vehemently on pineapple person's behalf. This is the SJW.

The other 4 are like wait, you got your pizza, wtf are y'all whining about now? And everything just goes straight to hell from there.

That pretty much sums up the modern world in a nutshell.

More like "You dont like Pepperoni? Then you arent allowed to eat Pizza, even when you're alone, and keep your Pineapples away from my children, you sicko".

Kerg3927:
I see the whole privileged majority vs. minority/SJW thing like this...

You have a board meeting with 6 people. They serve pepperoni pizza for everyone. 5 of the 6 people like pepperoni pizza. But one person likes only pineapple pizza. That person is upset and cries. The others take notice and feel bad.

So the next board meeting, most of the pizzas are still pepperoni, but there is one pineapple pizza served as well. Everyone should be happy, right?

Not necessarily. The person eating the pineapple pizza feels awkward because he/she is the only one in the room eating pineapple pizza. So he/she says that HALF the pizzas should be pineapple so that there is equal representation. And if they don't like it, then 2 pepperoni people should be kicked off the board and 2 pineapple people brought in so that there is equality.

One of the pepperoni lovers feels sorry for the pineapple lover or pretends to feel sorry for that person so he/she can pat him/herself on the back and say look at me, I stood up for the little guy. He argues vehemently on pineapple person's behalf. This is the SJW.

The other 4 are like wait, you got your pizza, wtf are y'all whining about now? And everything just goes straight to hell from there.

That pretty much sums up the modern world in a nutshell.

Nah, its more like they provide one pineapple pizza and then the other 5 people eating pepperoni spend the entire meeting being pissed that there's pineapple pizza provided. and then spend the next four months bringing the pineapple pizza issue up at every meeting because THERES A DUDE HAPPILY EATING PINEAPPLE PIZZA WHEN WE HAVE PERFECTLY GOOD PEPPERONI PIZZA RIGHT HERE

and then someone makes a thread called "Why is pineapple pizza so special?" where they start talking about the wage gap and how they hired someone who liked pineapple pizza once and they bailed so everyone that likes pineapple pizza is causing their own problems.

if gay media wasn't an issue with some people, it never would be brought up in these contexts

CritialGaming:

starbear:

Does people confronting you on your views make you feel uncomfortable?

Yes.

CritialGaming:
Developers, and I, are trying to understand.

Here's the thing.

If you want to "understand": then people are going to confront your views and make you feel uncomfortable.

There is no avoiding that issue. You cannot start understanding "the other point of view" unless you go through the process of having your perspective challenged. Is that going to make you uncomfortable? Yes it will. And you admit that. But you can't have it both ways. You can't both want to understand and not be challenged on your views.

Confronting anyone's views makes them uncomfortable. Why to you think it is so difficult to debate religion with people. The moment you challenge what a person believes to be true, they struggle to accept what might be a different viewpoint or a different "truth".

Lets not talk about religion. Lets talk about your views in this thread. This is a statement you have made.

"the oppression and discrimination in the workforce against LBGT people is mostly due to their own behavior and even method of dress"

Did you make this statement just to be controversial, or did you make this statement because this is what you honestly think?

Did you not think that people might react strongly to this assertion? Were you not expecting challenges?

You did get challenged on that statement. Did you consider those challenges an attack? Did those challenges make you reevaluate your position?

As for the LBGT community critiquing the use of LBGT characters in games. No I'm not saying they shouldn't say anything. I'm saying that the critique is usually not constructive. The problem is that they don't critique, they condemn, and when you do that nothing can get better.

Firstly: critique does not need to be "constructive." Sometimes pointing a spotlight on the subject is what is required. That was the whole point of Tropes vs Women.

Secondly: the world is much smaller now. Any person can hop on the internet and express their opinion on twitter. Billions of people are a few keyboard clicks away from "condemning" someone else. There is a heck of a lot of noise out there. Blaming the "LBGT community" for "attacks" on the developers of Mass Effect doesn't make any sense. I would challenge you to show that there was significant critique of Mass Effect for its portrayal of some of their characters, that that critique would fall into the category of "condemnation", and that the LBGT community were somehow responsible for those "attacks." People are going to express themselves. We can't hide from that any more, and we can't expect the nebulous "LBGT community" to condemn what some random person on the internet decides to post in a fit of rage one day.

People have feelings right? And creative people tend to be very defensive of their works. So when you bash on something under the guise of "critique" you need to be very careful.

Can you please post anything that Anita Sarkeesian posted or said as part of the Trope vs Women series that could be fairly characterised as "bashing."

And even if did degenerate to "bashing": then so what? I'm a creative person and make my money in a creative field. Some people hate my work. Some people bash it. Sometimes its constructive. Other times it is not. I've critiqued other creatives work. They have asked me to critique their work. Critique is expected in the creative industries. Its how we get better. I've had my work very harshly critiqued. I took that critique on board and I did better the next time. You can't afford to be a snowflake and work in the creative industries.

What ends up happening is that Developers and publishers stop taking those risks that they are barely willing to take in the first place.

Give me some examples of that happening. What I've seen is developers of games like "The Last of Us" and "Dishonoured" saying that the critique helped them make better games. Which is what we all want, don't you agree?

There is a difference between critique (even harsh critique) and outright bashing. Which is a line people have a hard time finding. I myself have been guilty of that line a few times I'm sure.

I don't think that line is hard to find at all.

So yes the LBGT community should be a little more please that the industry is even willing to try.

Fuck that shit.

And when a LBGT character appears in a game, don't bash it outright for the things it does wrong. Critique it, talk about the good and the bad.

If I play a video game that has a character in black face that starts spouting offensive ethnic slurs I'm gonna bash it outright. And if a video game has a transgender character that conforms to all the worst stereotypes and is blatantly offensive then I'm going to bash that outright as well.

Acknowledge that the industry is trying and give pointers on what could be done better.

And that is exactly what things like Tropes vs women not only tried to do, but was successful in doing. Yet some members of the gaming community (and judging by your posts in this thread, includes you) have done nothing but cast scorn in Anita Sarkeesian's direction. You say you are in favour of constructive critique. Yet you accuse Sarkeesian of trolling, of playing the victim card, of just doing this for money and fame. You are just full of contradictions.

The LBGT community is fighting for acceptance, so I think there needs to be a gentler, almost "easing" in approach to how they critique things in media that relate direct to them. Because going at the industry too hard is only going to make the industry take steps backwards and that's not what anyone wants.

Fuck that shit. Civil rights didn't magically happen because people of colour gently asked if they could drink from the same water-tap as white folk. There were protests, there were riots, people suffered, people died. The fight for marriage equity in the US started back in 1969 when members of the LBGT community rose up at Stonewall. History shows you are wrong.

But lets not pretend the critique of Mass Effect even came close to rising to that level. The critique rose to the level of the odd twitter post that said "One thing: just about 0.000000000000001% of trans people will just tell you their deadname on first meeting, what the FUCK is this"

That is pretty fucking gentle. And guess what. It worked.

http://au.ign.com/articles/2017/04/05/bioware-apologizes-for-how-it-handled-mass-effect-andromedas-transgender-character

Right?

Wrong.

The opinion of a cynic...

1) Most people are selfish. They are concerned mainly about themselves and their close family and friends, and give very few f*cks about the greater good. In this regard, we are no different than anyone else in the animal world.

2) Most people will deny #1 above, and many will go to great lengths to convince people that #1 is not true, because nobody wants to be called selfish.

3) Minority groups are always going to complain as long as they are the minority group. They will only stop complaining if they become the majority group, and then the former majority group who is now in the minority will start complaining. And why not? In a democratic society, the minority group gets outvoted, and a selfish person (#1 above) doesn't like to get outvoted even if it serves the greater good. Complaining takes little effort and like the NBA player who constantly complains to the refs, sometimes it works and the ref listens and it can affect the game in the player's favor.

4) There will never be a utopian society where every group is equally represented and is not a minority group. It's like communism. It won't work because of #1. Life is a competition, and everyone tees off at different distances from the green. The best a minority group can hope for is that one day their group will become the majority group and call the shots.

5) Most people in the modern developed world are extremely weak. Most have no concept of true hardship. The worst problems that we face generally pale in comparison to the problems faced by people in the developing world today and throughout most of history. I think the average SJW wants to see themselves as the next Rosa Parks or the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square, when in reality they are typically just an NBA player complaining about the officiating.

CritialGaming:

On a more serious note, one thing that is consistent with people and the whole "Diversity" in gaming thing, is that people project their sensibilities upon developers. The Witcher 3 being a good example of that. CD Projekt Red is a Polish developer and made the game based around their folklore and world building from the Witcher books. Having a diversely colored cast of characters probably never even occured to them because that particular SJW concern most likely isn't even on their radar.

Hilariously, "having a diversely colored cast of characters probably never even occured to them because that particular SJW concern most likely isn't even on their radar" is exactly the observation made by a guy that otherwise loved the game which cause idiots to proclaim that "SJWs are going after Witcher 3." Like, that sentence perfectly encapsulates the article. But when the other guy says it, it becomes unacceptable, for reasons.

The same can be applied to the Japanese developers that made blatant boob, panties, and ass fan service a major part of some of their games. It's because that's what they want and they see no moral compass problem of that kind of thing. Yet people will rally against a game like Dead or Alive Xtreme Beach Boobieball and see little to no response from a Japanese dev.

It just isn't part of the morality of their culture. For god's sake you can buy used underwear from vending machines. It doesn't make their culture an immoral culture, it just makes it a different one. If the fan service bothers people, then don't buy it, but dont try and convert an entire culture into conforming to your moral compass.

...*sigh*, no, you cannot buy used underwear from vending machines in Japan. Not legally, anyway. And I'll criticize a game for whatever I'd like, consensus be damned. Same as I'll criticize Bethesda games for bugs, even if most of the gaming community gives them a pass for it that they don't give other companies.

Kerg3927:
The opinion of a cynic...

1) Most people are selfish. They are concerned mainly about themselves and their close family and friends, and give very few f*cks about the greater good. In this regard, we are no different than anyone else in the animal world.

2) Most people will deny #1 above, and many will go to great lengths to convince people that #1 is not true, because nobody wants to be called selfish.

3) Minority groups are always going to complain as long as they are the minority group. They will only stop complaining if they become the majority group, and then the former majority group who is now in the minority will start complaining. And why not? In a democratic society, the minority group gets outvoted, and a selfish person (#1 above) doesn't like to get outvoted even if it serves the greater good. Complaining takes little effort and like the NBA player who constantly complains to the refs, sometimes it works and the ref listens and it can affect the game in the player's favor.

4) There will never be a utopian society where every group is equally represented and is not a minority group. It's like communism. It won't work because of #1. Life is a competition, and everyone tees off at different distances from the green. The best a minority group can hope for is that one day their group will become the majority group and call the shots.

5) Most people in the modern developed world are extremely weak. Most have no concept of true hardship. The worst problems that we face generally pale in comparison to the problems faced by people in the developing world today and throughout most of history. I think the average SJW wants to see themselves as the next Rosa Parks or the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square, when in reality they are typically just an NBA player complaining about the officiating.

I wonder if there are any species of the animal kingdom as dysfunctional as the human race. We seem to think we are superior due to advanced intellect but clearly that has created other dilemmas we have no practical, all-encompassing solution for. For this thread's example, we strive for equality, yet preach diversity. If equality was ever achieved would we even be satisfied? Being different seems to be an inherently essential part of being human.

The point you made about life being a competition summarily proves the point. Modern social norms are designed to warp that into something unattainable, which is true equality.

I would pose the question to the statement above in bold that, if this is the case, then what obligation should the majority have in allowing it to happen?

In the end the universe doesn't care, but in the meantime we all still have to live here. Our history is still relatively short but we have made quick work of muddling it thanks to your #1 & 2. If we can't even level with that as a stepping stone towards the greater good-equal of not-then we've lost a pretty big chunk of our humanity at square one.

hanselthecaretaker:
Snip

So you're pulling the old "oh, women had it so good," card. Huh? Yeah, they were so spoiled. It was legal for men to rape their wives because how could a husband rape his wife? Let's also make it so that they can't vote, can't work, have no economic control over their life, no one takes them seriously, and then every time they complain just beat them because men know better and every time they ask for a better lot in life, let's remind them how good they have it to have the life of a glorified blow up doll.

Also, transphobic statements, as an man of Irish decent you leave my people the fuck out of this, my ancestors didn't suffer through the potato famine so that a hundred years later their suffering could be weaponized against Blacks, Jackson Katz? He's totally right, "boys will be boys" is utter idiocy, that shit didn't fly when I was a kid, and I grew up remarkably free of stereotypical negative male attributes, Aristotle lived over two thousand years ago in a society that practiced slavery and treated women like property, who gives a fuck what he thinks?

And as for that whole women not having dirty jobs thing, it's actual horseshit because women are trying to break into those fields, but are struggling because sexism.

http://the-exercist.tumblr.com/post/105284613217/is-that-so-women-have-been-a-leading-force-in

Do some actual research. Memes are not research. That's all that whole "point" of yours was really. You thought it was true, therefore it must be true, fact checking not required.

Kerg3927:
The opinion of a cynic...

1) Most people are selfish. They are concerned mainly about themselves and their close family and friends, and give very few f*cks about the greater good. In this regard, we are no different than anyone else in the animal world.

Um ... no. In fact the jury is still out whether humans are naturally greedy or generous, but the discussion has never been focussed on that. It's a false polemic to begin with because co-ordination and pro-social activity is a core part of our programming. And sometimes this is glaringly so ...for instance pre-current battle conditioning, soldiers weren't liable to shoot enemy combatants in the field without necessary brutalization or fear. Even in situations where it would have had a measureable effect on survival and lead to tactical advantage.

But this alone has basic elements of psychology and material necessity. Humans function better as a group. It's not as if some grand ploy of good and evil, merely material existence leading to consumate means to be a pro-social creature because, honestly, humans are pretty shite at surviving in the world by their ownsome.

So much so that medically speaking people can die from heartbreak given the amazing degree of physiological effects we can see when someone suffers bereavement. It's actually pretty fascinating to look at in neuroscience ... with fMRI the patterns of activity are odd, deeply complex, and excite many parts of the brain that go so far as to even complicate standing heart rate and other autonomic functions that you usually only see with incredible physical distress.

We think it might even take years off loved one's lives by the amount of trauma it can persistently inflict.

But you see? As romantic as this notion is is still doesn't inform us of the inherent 'goodness' or 'badness' of humans ...merely that most of us desperately want to love and be loved, treated with respect, and find solidarity and meaning in others. In otherwords, prosocial activity in a material existence.

Not something as idiotic and simple as 'selfish' and 'generous'. I will say that it feels pretty darn good to actually help another person. It's probably oursaving grace that most people can feel pride, or some level of accomplishment, when they see people living better through our actions. But once again, not something that validates 'humans are selfless', merely that we're gregarious pack animals that are usually accustomed to wanting to feel needed, or wanting to be seen in a good light, and thus will act accordingly.

It's more apt to say humans are egotistical. Which there is solid proof of ... but then again if we didn't have an ego at all, it would be hard to live in a material existence, period.

Reality testing and personal identification is kind of important to being alive and displaying reasonable thought and methodical agency and emotionality. We kind of need it.

2) Most people will deny #1 above, and many will go to great lengths to convince people that #1 is not true, because nobody wants to be called selfish.

That's because it's wrong.

3) Minority group*s are always going to complain as long as they are the minority group. They will only stop complaining if they become the majority group, and then the former majority group who is now in the minority will start complaining. And why not? In a democratic society, the minority group gets outvoted, and a selfish person (S #1 above) doesn't like to get outvoted even if it serves the greater good. Complaining takes little effort and like the NBA player who constantly complains to the refs, sometimes it works and the ref listens and it can affect the game in the player's favor.

As a trans person I don't doubt I'll be a minority in society, the difference is in Australia I can still expect to have the same rights and equality before the laws of the land. For instance, an employer still has to respect a contract they sign with me and can't fire me solely on the basis of me being trans. Because that's about as justified as firing someone because they wore a yellow shirt when there's no uniform.

Being trans doesn't mean I want to murder or disenfranchise cis people to secure power. I do however reserve the fact that I have humanrights, and it's not unfair to request equality before the law and not have politicians act against my natural self-interests that they wouldn't deny anyone else in society. Right to life, security, liberty, self-determination, freedom of thought, etc.

Oh, and I can assure you ... I will hold myself to the same standards regardless of whatever conspiracy theories you might hatch. What with me holding myself to the idea of metaphysical and ethical consistency, and not simply being 'selfish'.

Having a conscience, turns out, is a pretty good thing and not the least bit 'utopian' to simply expect by dint of shared humanity. We can hold ourselves up to standards of conduct. We can even be better through them! It's almost as if it's part of having a healthy psyche to want to be a more civil, educated, and reflective being that can recognize our mistakes, feel guilt, and strive to make amends.

4) There will never be a utopian society where every group is equally represented and is not a minority group. It's like communism. It won't work because of #1. Life is a competition, and everyone tees off at different distances from the green. The best a minority group can hope for is that one day their group will become the majority group and call the shots.

I agree, utopianism is stupid, but ending needless corruption and enforcing human rights are still a good thing for society in and of its own. We don't get to shirk our duties to at least maintain the argument that the next generation should live better than ourselves by simply calling it 'utopianism'.

5) Most people in the modern developed world are extremely weak. Most have no concept of true hardship. The worst problems that we face generally pale in comparison to the problems faced by people in the developing world today and throughout most of history. I think the average SJW wants to see themselves as the next Rosa Parks or the guy who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square, when in reality they are typically just an NBA player complaining about the officiating.

I agree, most people in the developed world are incredibly weak (almost as if they don't actually see the damages done) ... they also say stuff that can be fact checked with Google on their 3 different devices they carry with them everywhere they go.

@hanselthecaretaker: While men were off dying...

image

Women were doing the jobs men left behind.

As for dirty jobs, if a woman wants to do those jobs then let her. Hell, I have a female Pizza-Delivery person and was like "Good, delivering pizza shouldnt just be for guys...even though it seems to usually be..."

Not all Muslims are anti-gay. And my guess is most gays that Muslims in Muslim countries are killing...are also Muslim. I wonder how many LGBT Muslims wish they could flee to the US but cant now?

Alot of Irish people bitch about being owed their due. But we just call them white people. Not all white people are Irish, sure, but I have no doubt plenty of O'Briens are complaining about Mexicans taking their jobs, or voted for Trump cause they think he will bring him his coal job back (he wont).

And all slavery is bad. I'd hope any Irish person who knows how the Irish were treated would empathize with other oppressed groups rather than turning it into a fucking contest.

There are plenty of nutjobs -not- dressed in women's clothing who are worrysome too. And why are young boys not protected from would be rapists? Seriously "Protect our little girls...let these people we label rapists rape our boys!" Thats the message you also send. So not only are such people transphobic, they are sexist.

The one about the folly of "Boys will be Boys" is the only non-bad picture you posted, but I dont think you were posting it sincerely.

And the last one is being misinterpreted but I dont think you care.

It is because tech, not just game developing, has long been known to be hostile to women and minorities.
The number one reason why they leave the field all together is due to mistreatment.
http://www.npr.org/2017/04/28/525992223/survery-says-workers-are-leaving-tech-jobs-because-of-mistreatment
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/04/why-is-silicon-valley-so-awful-to-women/517788/
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-women-tech-20150222-story.html

The reality is life is too short to spend it miserable. No matter how much you may like the job, if the people create a hostile environment it is not just difficult for you to mentally endure, the stress will take a toll on your health. It simply is not worth it to exist in a hostile environment long term. So when one of those who are most hated for existing in that environment at all is able to accomplish something, people who have had to endure such things understand what it took for them to get there and are impressed with their determination to beat the odds.

hanselthecaretaker:
I wonder if there are any species of the animal kingdom as dysfunctional as the human race. We seem to think we are superior due to advanced intellect but clearly that has created other dilemmas we have no practical, all-encompassing solution for. For this thread's example, we strive for equality, yet preach diversity. If equality was ever achieved would we even be satisfied? Being different seems to be an inherently essential part of being human.

Some cultures celebrate differences as great and not a bad thing, and ALSO see different as equal. For example. Your favorite pie is cherry, mine is apple. If we both have apiece of apple pie it is not equal because i would receive my favorite piece of pie and you did not. No to be equal, you can have a piece of cherry pie and I have a piece of apple pie and we are both having our favorite piece of pie. Simply because something is different does not make one better or worse. However, expecting for one to settle and the other to not settle, then that is not equality.

Part of the problem is the existing society does not have room to create equality, as the equality has to be designed and integrated into the society the whole way up. It starts with the priorities the society places on different things.

For example, in a maternal culture, the warrior is not promoted, the teacher is. The most important person in society is the teacher because they are building the most important part of the future, the children. Then after the teacher is the doctor then the gardener. These have high social status and popularity. The warrior is worse than being a sanitation worker, it is the job that is necessary but no one wants to do, and is only done as a last resort. There is no " hero worship", and soldiers dislike and regret what they do. You cannot expect a society constructed against another to be equal for both parties. They have to reconstruct society from the ground up including parts of both to actually make it equal, and different. That way both people have their favorite piece of pie.

They aren't special and people that say otherwise are full of it. Does that clear it up for you?

Saelune:

As for dirty jobs, if a woman wants to do those jobs then let her.

That's the thing though, by and large, women DON'T.

Metalix Knightmare:

Saelune:

As for dirty jobs, if a woman wants to do those jobs then let her.

That's the thing though, by and large, women DON'T.

Answer's pretty simple then; encourage more women to do it, emphasize the mad dosh you get from it.

But if we do, can we count on your side to not scream about how unsuited women are for those jobs with muhupperbodystrength, ect?

Lil devils x:

Some cultures celebrate differences as great and not a bad thing, and ALSO see different as equal. For example. Your favorite pie is cherry, mine is apple. If we both have apiece of apple pie it is not equal because i would receive my favorite piece of pie and you did not. No to be equal, you can have a piece of cherry pie and I have a piece of apple pie and we are both having our favorite piece of pie. Simply because something is different does not make one better or worse. However, expecting for one to settle and the other to not settle, then that is not equality.

Part of the problem is the existing society does not have room to create equality, as the equality has to be designed and integrated into the society the whole way up. It starts with the priorities the society places on different things.

For example, in a maternal culture, the warrior is not promoted, the teacher is. The most important person in society is the teacher because they are building the most important part of the future, the children. Then after the teacher is the doctor then the gardener. These have high social status and popularity. The warrior is worse than being a sanitation worker, it is the job that is necessary but no one wants to do, and is only done as a last resort. There is no " hero worship", and soldiers dislike and regret what they do. You cannot expect a society constructed against another to be equal for both parties. They have to reconstruct society from the ground up including parts of both to actually make it equal, and different. That way both people have their favorite piece of pie.

IDK ... I was both an enlistee at 16 and a teacher later on. I kind of incorporated elements of both. Some skills and qualities directly transferable. Leadership, strength of will, discipline. I don't think it's as simple as breaking it down into a Mill's-esque critique of pigs in mud situation. I think the highly centralized nature of education is to secondary school's detriment. I think it should have a wider community based model that emphasises solidarity and active reality testing to the nature of work and social consciousness, but also improve student goal orientation.

The biggest critique of education in the West is 13 years of what? The idea that a student is required then to still study 7 years' full time medicine courses to become a doctor with an MBBS ... not even including their student-doctor duties. Students should leave school with an idea of what they want to do, and a basic idea of what it all entails, and if teacherscan't help them figure that out ... parents sure the fuck won't. Seriously, parents are kind of crap. But .... ehhh ... another topic.

Equality canbe achieved whether as a soldier or a teacher, I mean when Ifirst enlisted there were ashitload of LGBTQ people, either in the closet or otherwise, in the military. It was kind of a surprise but in the end it really wasn't ... the military was stable employment ... There was a reason why pre-Trump there was a big push to allow trans people to openly serve in the military, because something like 2 or3 times as many trans people actively serve than you'll find in common society by capita. And the fact that Republicans, who pretend to lovew soldiers, pretend to love those that serve their country, were trying to hurt their careers even then and now.

Fucking disgraceful.

I mean the U.S. is a prime example of how splitting societies into archetypal formations like 'paternal' or 'maternal' is kind of a broken metric. Because the U.S. treats its soldiers like garbage and it treats the people willing to serve like garbage. So much so they're willing to level their bullshit at trans people who are 2 to 3 times more willing to fight for them by capita than the cisgender populace, and use it as political ammunition to score votes with people too cowardly to serve themselves ... but still are so inclined to spit in the eye of a trans person who does.

How many of them are draft dodgers themselves to begin with?

So I have problems with the 'paternal/maternal' society split ... it's more a case some people are irredeemable cunts. Just depends on how many are in office. Standard career political class garbage you'll find anywhere.

John Oliver did a wonderful segment on a trans man who loved touring Afghanistan or Iraq, because back in the U.S. he was treated with ridiculous red tape, bureaucracy, casual transphobia, and blatant bigotry (what with screaming Republicans calling for his termination) ... that's how the U.S. treats soldiers who face lead for them.

Anyways, there's other reasons why I think the paternal/maternal split is somewhat off kilter because it makes natural assumptions of what is or isn't maternal conduct or maternal societies. Even as the qualities in the family unit change to reflect other so called maternal societies. Like family relations in Macedonia do not reflect anything like the nuclear family in 50's America. Women and elderly women holda lot more sway over individual units within the family home, and grandmothers (and ssuminglygreat grandmothers) hold a hell of a lot of sway, in terms of the economics of the home, the rearing of kids, education of kids, money spent, social networking (in terms of classical ideas of market participation and civil engagement), and so on ... despite public life being not much different than other so called paternal societies with paternal religious structures.

Grandmothers almost act as the guardians and managers (not housekeepers, managers of labour) to keep the house clean, repaired, and make sure the gardens are kept neat of the family household, and they are meant to be listened to and God help you if you dont... seriously ... one of my friend's in school was a Macedonian-Australian and she hit him with a wooden spoon when he failed to hear her tell him to pick up his shoes. She used to have this favourite chair overlooking the house. Thechair had morecushions, a foot rest. It used to creepily oversee the main entrance into the home and that family doted on her, bringing her drinks, biscuits, and she'd be the first person you'd see if you enter their place barring whoever opened the door for you.

It was actually kind of cool, reminded me of stories my dad used to tell me of imperious faerie queens in Celtic lore. Nigh inscrutable of motive, whimsical in judgment, but always regal in bearing.

It's really important to point out why intersectionality was a critical break away from essentialist ideas of the social sciences concerning duality theories.

@Metalix_Knightmare: And so we reach the catch 22 of it all. "Women dont do it, so they shouldnt do it, cause they cant do it cause they wont do it".

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