Mr.Carmel is absolutely right. DRM didn't stop Spore from being the most pirated game ever.

hes right about DRM not stopping piracy. DRM providers are just another industry-interest group who have no interest in solving the problem they are targeting because doing so would mean they no longer have a job. That said, DRM is currently the easiest solution for a publisher to employ, & the simplest solution is always the one people go for when money's involved.

Yep. And I'm getting more and more sure that piracy is not at all what DRM is about. Think about it. Carmel knows it, Shamus knows it, we know it, in short: practically everyone who spent two seconds thinking about it knows.
How can we think the execs at EA, 2K and what-have-you DON'T? Even if they might make you think otherwise - they're smart people, or they should be. So of course they know.
They just claim they don't, and that's because it would be really ugly for them to admit what they're really after: Thrashing the used games market. Think of it. That's what DRM really works against, because nobody buys a game when they can't be sure that they're even able to play it.

Of course, this rationale is not as smart as company execs would like to think. Because if you want to buy the game used because you don't want to or just can't shell out 60 bucks - how on Earth is DRM supposed to change that? The nicest way to go would be not to get it at all - but, dear publishers, I've got news for you: Most people aren't that nice, they're going to pirate. Congrats.

L.B. Jeffries:
Didn't Carmel later claim that most of their revenue from World of Goo came from the Virtual Console and Steam? It may not be DRM, but using a console or Valve's service is just a variation on the concept.

Just saying.

The thing is it wasn't exclusive to either of those, you can get it from the world of goo website region and drm free as well as sites like playgreenhouse. Steam just happens to be a very popular digital distribution network.

L.B. Jeffries:

Ralackk:

L.B. Jeffries:
Didn't Carmel later claim that most of their revenue from World of Goo came from the Virtual Console and Steam? It may not be DRM, but using a console or Valve's service is just a variation on the concept.

Just saying.

The thing is it wasn't exclusive to either of those, you can get it from the world of goo website region and drm free as well as sites like playgreenhouse. Steam just happens to be a very popular digital distribution network.

Right, but if he's going to brag about DRM not being necessary he needs to light all the money on fire from those sales, particularly the Virtual Console where the game was the most popular, because you can only get their game by paying on the Wii.

I can't really comment on the virtual console as I have never used it nor am I familiar with how it works. For Steam though I see no problem with it, everyone has a option not to buy it on Steam, it is avaliable DRM and Steam free from other places. Just because he released it on Steam as well to take advantage of another digital distribution network does not mean he endorses DRM.

I think more than anything else, he's showing that spending your limited budget on gameplay instead of huge marketed, celeb voiceovers, million dollar cutscenes and licensed teen rock soundtracks, means you are not risking so much cash in the first and therefore can sell it cheaper and not lose so many customers because they would risk $10 and not $60.

Of course there's places for MGS4 and GTA4, but often there's mediocre games dressed up in expensive makeup, but pay for it, and when you wake up the morning after you'll realise what you have.

I'm not surprised world of Goo got so pirated. Its a great game but Seriously? 20$? You can get Mass Effect for that price.

Although I am surprised that they would PUBLICLY denounce DRM.

Keane Ng:

Ron Carmel and 2D Boy know something about piracy. Their award-winning and critically lauded puzzle game, World of Goo, made headlines last year not just for being an outstanding game, but for having an outstanding piracy rate of 90 percent. So you'd think Carmel would be all about putting up rows of fences to keep the pirates at bay, but DRM, he believes, isn't the right way to do it.

Ron Carmel is now my new game dev hero. As if World of Goo's fantastic gameplay and stylish presentation weren't enough.

Thanks for the post, Keane. It's good to know these people are still out there, skirting EA's crocodile chompers.

DRM! Uh! What is it good for!? Absolutly nothing!

Shame on everyone who pirated World of Goo.

A BEAUTIFUL game.

I oppose DRM, and have made it a matter of point to attempt to purchase Stardock games on a regular basis. I also scored some Goo via my Wii (omg that sounds bad)

Sewblon:
Mr.Carmel is absolutely right. DRM didn't stop Spore from being the most pirated game ever.

DRM also didn't stop 80% percent of Carmel's user base pirating the game either.

saying "steam is drm" is like saying hard rock is country, there is some overlap in the two areas but they are very different all together. steams whole drm claim is based on the fact that steam uses an account system in which you cant install and play games that arent registered to your account. it has no rigid install limits and it doesent install any rootkits or malware on your system like starforce or securom, its just an account system. but that isnt and hasant stopped people (myself included) from logging onto my steam account and installing stalker or ut3 or mass effect or deus ex or any of the other 80 or so steam games i have in my account on my friends or my cousins computers and playing them, or even letting my friends try them out while steam is logged into my account. steam even goes a few steps further by letting me create backups of my games for quicker installs on other systems. you could argue that you have to be connected to steam to even play the games even if the content is already on the computer, but seeing how much steam offers in return, in game internet browsing, friends list, messaging, voice chat, etc. even in games that arent available over steam id say its a fair trade off. and seeing that steam itself is such a lightweight program the only issue is if you dont have an internet connection. yes, it can be fustrating if you dont have an internet connection or it craps out on you, but it cant really be considered drm. steam is digital distribution, NOT drm as so many of you continue to claim it to be.

i dispise drm as much as anyone else, it pisses me off that stalker clear sky and crysis warhead use securom, all it does is piss all over the costumers that actually bought the game and does nothing to stop piracy. in fact one could argue that drm is not actually meant to stop piracy but rather help publishers control the content, but using it doesent work and thats been proven. microsoft years ago comissioned a study that found that drm just wouldnt work, and all the time it continues to be proven correct, but calling steam drm is just asanine. in the literal sense, yes, it provides digital rights management, but it doesent even come close to the level of things like starforce or securom and it hasant stopped me from playing the games i like as much as i want whenever, whereever i want and i would argue that it even allows me to do that easier than it would be if i didnt use steam.

ratix2:
*snip on a huge post about Steam*

Yes Steam is awesome and offers great things and the only thing you need to have it is 1.Have internet 2.have harddrive space. I think every one that enjoys video games has both.

Also Spy vs Spy rules.

Smart guy - DRM == bad for customer == drop in sales == spending more resources on pirates than on the customer who paid for the thing.

Piracy is caused by: overpricing, multiple release dates, different prices in different countries, a lack of demos, and of course, people just being too damn lazy to pay for them like a normal person.

oliveira8:
DRM! Uh! What is it good for!? Absolutly nothing!

:) Thumbs-up for the reference there...

I think he is absolutely right... And especially coming from him, whose game was severely pirated last autumn.

ratix2:
*snip*

I have also come around to the pro-steam camp. It was so useful over christmas while visiting the 'rents

DeadlyYellow:

Sewblon:
Mr.Carmel is absolutely right. DRM didn't stop Spore from being the most pirated game ever.

DRM also didn't stop 80% percent of Carmel's user base pirating the game either.

Erm...wha-? You do realise World of Goo does NOT HAVE ANY DRM, right?

I think that World of Goo only gets pirated so much because of its small size (how big is it? Under 100 Mb?). I think if devs released bigger games without DRM, the piracy rate wouldn't be quite that high.

YuheJi:
I think that World of Goo only gets pirated so much because of its small size (how big is it? Under 100 Mb?). I think if devs released bigger games without DRM, the piracy rate wouldn't be quite that high.

Oh it would. Dont underestimate Pirates.

Doug:
Erm...wha-? You do realise World of Goo does NOT HAVE ANY DRM, right?

The humor is lost on you.

I wanted world of goo for a long time, downloaded the demo and had alot of fun with it, I just wasn't willing to pay 20 bucks for the game.
But, I didn't pirate it. I refuse to pirate indy games, so I waited and eventualy forgot about it.
Then a steam sale come up and I bought it for 5 bucks!
Now I'm happy I got a realy fun game and didn't cheat anyone out of money.
We all win.

YuheJi:
I think that World of Goo only gets pirated so much because of its small size (how big is it? Under 100 Mb?). I think if devs released bigger games without DRM, the piracy rate wouldn't be quite that high.

wrong as hell. world of goo got pirated so much becasue of its insanly high price. comparable games usually run around $5-10 whereas world of goo cost $15-20. one of the biggest "legitmate" reasons pirates give is the game costs too much, and while world of goo is a damn good game its not worth $20.

As much as I hate DRM, I hate pirates more because they're the reason we have this garbage.

ratix2:

YuheJi:
I think that World of Goo only gets pirated so much because of its small size (how big is it? Under 100 Mb?). I think if devs released bigger games without DRM, the piracy rate wouldn't be quite that high.

wrong as hell. world of goo got pirated so much becasue of its insanly high price. comparable games usually run around $5-10 whereas world of goo cost $15-20. one of the biggest "legitmate" reasons pirates give is the game costs too much, and while world of goo is a damn good game its not worth $20.

Well, maybe not to you. I actually ended up buying the game twice. (Even tough the second time was on Steam sale.)
I think saying things like "Something ain't worth X amount of money" is pretty much a presonal preference. I'm usualy exited to get my hands on any good game for the price of 20$ or less.

L.B. Jeffries:

Right, but if he's going to brag about DRM not being necessary he needs to light all the money on fire from those sales, particularly the Virtual Console where the game was the most popular, because you can only get their game by paying on the Wii.

Apparently not, according to the Pirate Bay. In fact, the Wiiware version led the PC version on the torrent sites by about a week ( http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_189/5768-Rob-from-the-Rich-Steal-from-the-Poor.5 ).

Internet Kraken:
As much as I hate DRM, I hate pirates more because they're the reason we have this garbage.

No, they're not.

Nobody in the games industry believes that DRM stops illegal copying and distribution of games.

The first reason we have DRM is cost. The $50k-$250k to license SecuROM or Starforce is negligible in the lines of a multimillion dollar development budget, and Macrovision and Starforce offer even lower rates to indie developers with smaller expected market sizes.

The second reason is that there's no easy way to evaluate the conversion rate from an illegal copy to an honest purchase (in one instance, as low as 0.1%: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_189/5768-Rob-from-the-Rich-Steal-from-the-Poor ), so there's no way for a publisher to evaluate how much of a return they're getting on their outlay for the DRM licensing costs.

So for a trivial sum, the publishers are buying some snake oil that's promising to make them some additional sales, but along the way, they're losing sight of the fact that the only people affected by said snake oil are the (100-x)% who've paid good honest coin for a copy of their game. Some call it greed, but I think short sightedness is a more apt description.

bkd69:

So for a trivial sum, the publishers are buying some snake oil that's promising to make them some additional sales, but along the way, they're losing sight of the fact that the only people affected by said snake oil are the (100-x)% who've paid good honest coin for a copy of their game. Some call it greed, but I think short sightedness is a more apt description.

What about used game sales? Honestly, I think that's the only reason nowadays for publishers to include it. Given how DRM ties the game to a single owner, wouldn't locking out this entire market bring you some massive profit?

Valve has realized what most other companies still refuse to admit: they need to compete with bit torrent to turn a profit. Torrents are easy to use, cracks are everywhere, and you can keep the ISOs on an external hard drive. If you buy a game in store you have to keep track of discs and a key with limited activations. It's a massive inconvenience, especially if they're stingy about how many activations each key gets. Steam on the other hand provides both a good distribution system and some protection against piracy without forcing any hassle on your customers. My games are permanently tied to my account so I can download and install as many times as I want to, it tells me when my friends are online, and the games are more affordable than going out to Best Buy and getting Generic Shooter 4 or RPG Quest 13: The Quest For More Money; especially if you look at the classic or indy games they have to offer.

In short, copy protection in all its forms is not what the game industry should be focusing on. It's distribution and marketing.

SenseOfTumour:
Of course there's places for MGS4 and GTA4, but often there's mediocre games dressed up in expensive makeup, but pay for it, and when you wake up the morning after you'll realise what you have.

I'm speechless.

Gollon:

SenseOfTumour:
Of course there's places for MGS4 and GTA4, but often there's mediocre games dressed up in expensive makeup, but pay for it, and when you wake up the morning after you'll realise what you have.

I'm speechless.

In a good way?

He is definitely right about this.There is no need for DRM.Whether it's there or not someone will eventually crack it...
Besides I think that keeping DRM with games will only help increase piracy bcoz it's a hard hit on the game's quality with all the stupid rules.