Demigod Piracy Running High

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oliveira8:

Doug:

scotth266:
Anyone who pirated this, please turn in your testicles, along with all cred you possess as a gamer. You clearly deserve neither.

Well, that works for the guys, but I think the women need to be sterlized too.

scotth266:
And I don't need to hear more people parroting "DOTA DOTA DOTA". Who cares about DOTA when Blizzard makes tons of money all the time? As a gaming public against DRM, we need to support companies with like ideals.

EDIT: Apologies for sounding all pissy. It's just that DRM invokes the worst rage in me that you can get.

Agreed, I don't even know what DotA is.

Defense of the Ancients. Its a WC3 multiplayer mode/map thingie...it fails too.

Hey, DotA is fun sometimes :P

This is why we need DRM pure and simple.....

Fucking pirates are going to make PC releases a thing of the past!

CantFaketheFunk:

oliveira8:

Doug:

scotth266:
Anyone who pirated this, please turn in your testicles, along with all cred you possess as a gamer. You clearly deserve neither.

Well, that works for the guys, but I think the women need to be sterlized too.

scotth266:
And I don't need to hear more people parroting "DOTA DOTA DOTA". Who cares about DOTA when Blizzard makes tons of money all the time? As a gaming public against DRM, we need to support companies with like ideals.

EDIT: Apologies for sounding all pissy. It's just that DRM invokes the worst rage in me that you can get.

Agreed, I don't even know what DotA is.

Defense of the Ancients. Its a WC3 multiplayer mode/map thingie...it fails too.

Hey, DotA is fun sometimes :P

Maybe now..but when I played it a couple of years it was full of griefers and cheaters, and rude people that thought they were gods cause they mastered the art of DOTA.

And once in a full moon you would find a cool dude to play with...

I think people saying that the piracy rate on this game is so high because there isn't DRM really aren't looking at the whole picture. What happened days before release? Publicity and a hell of a lot of it because of gamestops pre release. The sad fact is that the massive buzz around this games retail pre release has probably caused the extremely high piracy and is less down to the fact that it's 'easy' to pirate.

The really wierd thing is how people are saying this is a reason for DRM? Umm no... there is literally no difference in the 'difficulty' of pirating this game, compared to a game that is packed with DRM such as Spore.

Publicity causes piracy, not the difficultly of the original crack.

Kangol:
GOGO PIRATES!

This makes me very, very sad.

This obviously doesn't mean that DRM works. What it does mean is that virtually all claims of supporting piracy based on high-minded principle are complete garbage. People pirate because they can, plain and simple, and it seems pretty clear that while DRM as we've known it thus far is a failure, some form of effective copy protection is necessary and justified.

Taawus:
Pirating it? Okay, not nice but i could live with that.
Clogging up the networks and not letting people who actually bought it not being able to play online? Now thats being a grade A asshole.

So keeping developers from feeding their families, you're good with that, but keeping people who may be you from getting the full experience from their $40.. THAT's what pisses you off?

Fairly easy to see where your bread is buttered.

However, I'd like to put out a big thank you to the pirates of this game for disproving so aptly the argument that "Oh, them developers don't lose nothin' from piracy, hurr hurr.."

Anybody care to guess how many returns a game has when the play quality is degraded by pirates like this?

Malygris:
some form of effective copy protection is necessary and justified.

I agree with you in that it is necessarily to keep people making games for the PC, the only thing im unsure about is whether it's possible without really infringing on the consumers rights/privacy.

I don't think people have a problem with writing in a registration code when installing a game. I think they do have a problem with:

- Having the disc in the drive to play.
- Getting malware installed on their computers that can hurt your system integrity.

A few months back Blizzard released a patch for wc3 so you don't need to have the cd in the drive to boot. I have no more complaints.

If the there's a solid demo or limited trial for a game, and you enjoyed it then there's no excuse left not to pay money for it.

CantFaketheFunk:
This makes me very, very sad.

Agreed, Stardock doesn't deserve this in any way, shape, or form.

Malygris:

Kangol:
GOGO PIRATES!

This makes me very, very sad.

This obviously doesn't mean that DRM works. What it does mean is that virtually all claims of supporting piracy based on high-minded principle are complete garbage. People pirate because they can, plain and simple, and it seems pretty clear that while DRM as we've known it thus far is a failure, some form of effective copy protection is necessary and justified.

When I saw that post, I felt such rage... I hope I am not over stepping here, but would it be reasonable to suggest that forum user be permanently IP banned?

At this point, the only leg piracy has to stand on occasionally is "demo". I wonder if that last leg could be knocked out if there was a better system for having a limited use review copy of a game. That said though, I want to be very clear I do not "pirate" a game that does not have a demo, I just don't buy it (or wait for a price so low it basicly equals the cost of a small bag of junk food).

And all those who did pirate Stardock's games? I hope you downloaded some nasty virii with it, zombie sheep lead to the slaughter by some cracker hacker.

I thought there were some good points brought up about how DRM is still not the answer and this is partly to blame because of publicity.

I don't think anybody ever called for the removal of CDkeys, aren't those enough to throw the warezed copies out? Pirates should know that they can't play a warezed copy online (if this doesn't even have that kind of check... well, good job throwing out the only thing that actually WORKS) so I wonder why they even went online. If they knew they couldn't but still clobbered the server like that... DDoS? Should subside soon, people will not keep trying to connect to a server if it gets nothing done.

And imagine what'll happen once the game sells enough to have 100k legitimate users online at once, what then? Tell them "sorry, our game sold too well"?

Looking at Amazon I can guess what a major source of piracy for the game could be: Its European release is on 7. May. That's almost a month away. Piracy provides the game NOW. DRM is not the only thing that elevates the convenience of warez over the real product, long delays on international releases will also affect it.

cainx10a:
Bring out the MMO-tactics, meaning having to stay online/connected to actually play a game. A log-in interface to their network to be able to access and play the game content; you probably shouldn't be able to stay online to be able to play the game, but you still need to validate your account with the system to get access to the game itself.

For a MP game that happens anyway, for an SP game it's crackable. Checking whether an online server gives you a thumbs up isn't terribly different from checking whether the right CD is in the drive, just replace the whole code with a "return true" and the protection is useless. Server connections only work when they actually add something to the game and thus removing them would cripple it (e.g. running an MMORPG offline kinda defeats the whole point), if all they do is set a flag that you're allowed to run the code and data on your harddrive they can be stripped out.

scotth266:
This is annoying as hell to read. WHY DO PEOPLE DO THIS!!! These folks have gladly given their product out free of DRM in order to support the gaming public's protest against the system, and what do all these people do? They pirate it! This also happened to the guy that made World of Goo. A 90% piracy rate on that game, but the man still says that he hates DRM.

The WoG guy pointed out that there's no difference in the piracy rate for DRM'd software and unprotected software, hence DRM is stupid. It does nothing.

The point isn't how good the game is, but the company's stand on DRM.

The whole DRM talk is usually an excuse for claiming "we did nothing wrong, our sales are being sabotaged" and it will be brought out every time a game fails to sell. If people don't pirate the game but don't buy it either the company will still claim DRM is good. I'm certainly not going to buy it, it sounds like a fun little minigame but not worthy of a full 50€ release. Screaming about how it's DRM-free won't change that, the thing I want more than DRM-free games is games that are fun and worth the money. I won't buy games that fail to sell themselves to me just to make a statement about DRM.

At long last, clear and unambiguous evidence for my long-standing belief that people don't pirate games "in protest of DRM". They do it because they can't be bothered to actually pay for something that people have put a lot of time and money into developing. Short version: pirates are dicks.

Malygris:
This obviously doesn't mean that DRM works. What it does mean is that virtually all claims of supporting piracy based on high-minded principle are complete garbage.

Agreed 100%.

What actually pisses me off more than the pirating of it is the early release date from Gamestop. The company possibly could have better dealt with the inevitable pirates ANYWAY if they had the time to recover after the grind. They would be working faster, more thoroughly, and I doubt it would have been as much of an issue. I work at Gamestop, sometimes shamed to admit almost two and a half years now. Their business ethics always seem to border on greedy and money-grubbing, and they rarely think of anythink but their wallets. It's things like this that make me seriously consider why I still work there.

"...Some observers have suggested GameStop intentionally released the game early to get an edge on Stardock's digital release of the game on its Impulse network..."

Short answer? Yes. Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The Impulse digital purchase is cheaper by $10 than a hard copy, and requires less work to get. Many people these days would prefer to spend an hour or two downloading than the 20-30 minutes it takes to head to the store and buy something, and the price makes the deal that much sweeter. Gamestop's logic would be to release the game a bit early, thus making them the one and only source for the game, and greatly increasing their sales.

Only it backfired. Of course, most people still wouldn't want to hit the store. In an economic situation such as the US', maybe people would want the digital download anyway as it saves a bit of cash. But now, the game is out, they can see if it's really worth that money they were going to spend in the first place! Quick, someone go see if it's been tossed up on the net yet!

So yes to several points so far in the thread. Yes, the piracy is more likely just a rush to see if the game is really worth the money soon to be spent. And yes, it most likely IS Gamestop's fault. However, Stardock is at fault as well for not at least taking simple precautions. Gamestop started the problem, and Stardock just allowed it to happen.

As for the DRM issues, I honestly don't see a problem with it, if it's done well. Games where you can only activate a limited number of times, not cool, that just treats the consumer like they're stealing the game anyway. They haven't purchased it, they're "renting" it, I guess. Games that require you to activate through a created account before downloading a small unlocking patch or whatever, that's more acceptable. I can understand that. CD-Keys obviously don't work as well as companies wished. No protection at all is murder, as seen here. DRM is a good idea in theory, it just needs to be implemented the right way.

The Impulse engine for Demigod is an excellent way to do it. It's safe and secure, as only the person who bought it has access to it, and it's easy to track. If the account is rapidly downloading the game, or multiple copies at the same time, then you know what account is being abused.

[/rant]

I have the game and honestly, for what I was expecting, got a BUNCH more than I expected. Yes there is no real campaign, but honestly, with the gameplay and how it works, I don't know how well that would work out.

Myself, and 2 other friends like this game TONS more then DoTa and that's the whole reason we play it. It's like DoTa, but allows a lot more in depth.

And considering last night we couldn't even get online to play with each other pissed us the hell off. Even more so knowing that it's people who stole the game, if you seem interested in it, and they don't have a demo, suck it up and decide to buy it or not.

Don't fuck the rest of us who DID pay out of being able to get on since you were too selfish to muster up the balls to buy it yourself.

/rant

There are no CD Keys for this game? This old method is still the best (IMO) for keeping pirates in check. Offer online multiplayer and possible additional content by way of the CD Key to discourage pirating of the game.

Stardock, though its intentions are noble, shot themselves at the foot with this one. Reverse Psychology doesn't work on pirates.

Let's get this point straight: People don't like invasive DRM in their games - SecuROM and Install Limits come to mind, and other examples like them and only them. Going out of your way to forget copy-protection is a bad move.

KDR_11k:
I don't think anybody ever called for the removal of CDkeys, aren't those enough to throw the warezed copies out?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: CD keys are based on an algorithm of the software signature, where the publisher makes a change to the data file on the CD. Any good cracker can crack a CD key as well, and what this causes to happen is that the pirates are then basically imitating actual paying people who are out there. Any copy-protection based on this risks tossing out the legitimate use in favor of the pirate. That's why Steam has a whole subsection on if you think your game key has been hijacked.

And imagine what'll happen once the game sells enough to have 100k legitimate users online at once, what then? Tell them "sorry, our game sold too well"?

What then? Well then they have the money from 100k legitimate copies to buy more servers and hire more staff to maintain/load-balance.

Looking at Amazon I can guess what a major source of piracy for the game could be: Its European release is on 7. May. That's almost a month away. Piracy provides the game NOW. DRM is not the only thing that elevates the convenience of warez over the real product, long delays on international releases will also affect it.

And having to wait for an entertainment product justifies the piracy of it in what way? Are we all entitled to immediate gratification of our entertainment desires?

The WoG guy pointed out that there's no difference in the piracy rate for DRM'd software and unprotected software, hence DRM is stupid. It does nothing.

To be accurate, he pointed out that he THINKS it makes no difference. He's only released the one game however, and that one without DRM. They have no real means to compare. Does DRM eliminate all piracy? Hell no. Does it eliminate some? Almost assuredly. Does it convert some pirates into paying customers? That one's harder.. no solid stats on that one, but from what I know, I'd tend to say that there's a very small subset of people who won't buy if it's easily accessible for free, but if not, will buy it.. and those are the ones that DRM is targeting. Does that work out for the company on a cost/benefit basis? Again, with no stats, very hard to say -- however when the costs are that even the legit customers can't play, it gets easy for a developer to lean to the side of "yes it does."

Grampy_bone:
Not putting nazi-DRM like install limits and online activation in your game: Good.

Not putting in a basic cd-key validation to keep pirates off official servers: Moronic.

Hear Hear

Basic cd-key validation for online play has worked, works, and will continue to work as long as the authentication servers are secure. Online communities like battle.net are 100% warez free exactly because of this. Not only that, but obviously using valuable bandwidth to serve non paying customers is a pretty silly idea to begin with. The notion that random consumers who download various software from p2p networks would have the moral fibre not to abuse an entirely unprotected piece of software is pretty naive. I hardly think these individuals consider or are even aware of the full brunt of their actions (as demonstrated in this case).

This is however by no means a justification for using overly restrictive DRM. As it stands, restrictive DRM schemes are used not to prevent piracy, but to prevent perfectly legit and legal forms of competition... meaning, creating back-up's to prevent loss, reselling of legally purchased products, etc. The flak aimed at DRM is not because companies employ it, it's because companies ABUSE it. Surely even in the business world of entertainment software, not everything must always be black or white?!

Kwil:

KDR_11k:
I don't think anybody ever called for the removal of CDkeys, aren't those enough to throw the warezed copies out?

Short answer: No.

I don't think you are fully aware of just how utterly UNLIKELY it really is that a CD-key in the form of XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX-XXXXX using both letters and numbers, generated by a pirate will exactly match a CD-key generated by the developer and stored in their authentication server. The odds of this happening are astronomically small, I personally have never heard of this happening, and the cases where such incidents were reported it later turned out that a number of copies had had their cd-keys stolen/copied from the original jewel cases.

In the extremely unlikely, but not impossible event that a pirate DOES 'guess' a working cd-key however, it would be a simply matter of the paying cutomer mailing in the original booklet to have his cd-key reset. This can ALL be solved, by some very basic customer service. The inconvenience this would potentially cause to the customer is laughably neglectable compared to restrictive DRM, and DRM that breaks more legitimate copies than anything else.

Of course, that being said... CD-keys don't protect single player only/offline games, but then I've never really haerd of anything, other than an FBI agent attached to the disc, that actually protects those games...

I'm usually against DRM,and I still am but....man, this just sucks...it isn't right.

I just hope they'll stop the pirates from playing online because I intend to buy this game. From what I can see so far it's awesome.

Kwil:
Short answer: No.

Long answer: CD keys are based on an algorithm of the software signature, where the publisher makes a change to the data file on the CD. Any good cracker can crack a CD key as well, and what this causes to happen is that the pirates are then basically imitating actual paying people who are out there. Any copy-protection based on this risks tossing out the legitimate use in favor of the pirate. That's why Steam has a whole subsection on if you think your game key has been hijacked.

If CD keys are so easy to figure out, why don't people make, say, a key gen for MS or Nintendo points cards or prepaid cellphone charge cards? And what can stop the pirates from just hacking any account on the server then? Do the pirates somehow get access to the key generation algorithms in the authentication server? No, brute forcing should not work. If they just keep a database of the keys that were issued there should be no way to find a key reliably (provided the keyspace is large enough, of course but that's trivial to do), the only thing a pirate could figure out is if there's an algorithm in the installer that accepts/rejects keys and perfectly matches the one in the server (just putting a hash part into the key would be enough to make a system that detects incorrect entries without divulging the key algorithm though it'd probably be simpler to just check the key with the server). If you make it possible for people to break your key system you're doing something really, REALLY wrong.

And imagine what'll happen once the game sells enough to have 100k legitimate users online at once, what then? Tell them "sorry, our game sold too well"?

What then? Well then they have the money from 100k legitimate copies to buy more servers and hire more staff to maintain/load-balance.

But that takes time. Had the game been a massive runaway success they could have faced a 100k legitimate user situation within the first week. You can't just snap your fingers and turn money into a server, there's time needed to deploy it.

And having to wait for an entertainment product justifies the piracy of it in what way? Are we all entitled to immediate gratification of our entertainment desires?

Did I ever say it's justified in any way? I'm not pointing at justifications, I'm pointing at causes. People are more likely to warez a game when they can't just go into a store and buy it instead.

To be accurate, he pointed out that he THINKS it makes no difference. He's only released the one game however, and that one without DRM. They have no real means to compare. Does DRM eliminate all piracy? Hell no. Does it eliminate some? Almost assuredly. Does it convert some pirates into paying customers? That one's harder.. no solid stats on that one, but from what I know, I'd tend to say that there's a very small subset of people who won't buy if it's easily accessible for free, but if not, will buy it.. and those are the ones that DRM is targeting. Does that work out for the company on a cost/benefit basis? Again, with no stats, very hard to say -- however when the costs are that even the legit customers can't play, it gets easy for a developer to lean to the side of "yes it does."

He had the same piracy rate as DRM protected games, I'd say that shows that any effect DRM may have is too small to show up in the statistics.

Wait they let pirates play online? I always thought that was the one place designers could stop pirates without bothering normal customers. (Heard rumors that pirates found a way around that though (they always do))

In reply to KDR.

Long answer: CD keys are based on an algorithm of the software signature, where the publisher makes a change to the data file on the CD. Any good cracker can crack a CD key as well, and what this causes to happen is that the pirates are then basically imitating actual paying people who are out there. Any copy-protection based on this risks tossing out the legitimate use in favor of the pirate. That's why Steam has a whole subsection on if you think your game key has been hijacked.

If CD keys are so easy to figure out, why don't people make, say, a key gen for MS or Nintendo points cards or prepaid cellphone charge cards? And what can stop the pirates from just hacking any account on the server then? Do the pirates somehow get access to the key generation algorithms in the authentication server? No, brute forcing should not work. If they just keep a database of the keys that were issued there should be no way to find a key reliably (provided the keyspace is large enough, of course but that's trivial to do), the only thing a pirate could figure out is if there's an algorithm in the installer that accepts/rejects keys and perfectly matches the one in the server (just putting a hash part into the key would be enough to make a system that detects incorrect entries without divulging the key algorithm though it'd probably be simpler to just check the key with the server). If you make it possible for people to break your key system you're doing something really, REALLY wrong.

Chinese hackers have hacked point cards for a few different services already. Apple being one of them.

scarbunny:
piracy rate of around 5 times the purchase rate

...Which is a quarter of what the drm advocates predicted so stardock must me doing something right, but releasing a good game isn't that because demigod isn't.

Still, almost 20k sales on day 1 for an unfinished niche-in-a-niche game with hardly any (good) publicity isn't that bad.

Mythosx:
In reply to KDR.

Chinese hackers have hacked point cards for a few different services already. Apple being one of them.

Don't they usually hack stuff by bribing the local subsidiary's employees?

Either way it's easy to fix, since the list is server-side just change the algorithm for all newly issued copies (of course you don't even HAVE to use an algorithm beyond a cryptographically secure RNG, nothing there to hack then). Yeah, the issued copied will be problematic but they're limited and if a hacker really finds their key (you did assign the keys randomly instead of sequentially, right?) before it's used by a legitimate customer you can have your customer service handle it. All cracking the algorithm can do is reduce the keyspace you have to search but if the keyspace is sufficiently large it's unlikely (we're talking about odds like once during the lifetime of the universe) that a cracker can find a key after it's been issued but before it's been used. This is really just a matter of storing which keys you issued and making sure the keyspace is large enough (and noone manages to break into your server and steal the key list of course but I think even that could be protected against by using an asymmetric encryption as a signature and only storing the public key for the signature in the server). It's made easier by the server being able to limit the rate at which keys can be checked (e.g. 1 per second per client would already make a 64 bit key uncrackable within the lifespan of the universe and most likely you'll use a much longer key).

Malygris:

Kangol:
GOGO PIRATES!

This makes me very, very sad.

This obviously doesn't mean that DRM works. What it does mean is that virtually all claims of supporting piracy based on high-minded principle are complete garbage. People pirate because they can, plain and simple, and it seems pretty clear that while DRM as we've known it thus far is a failure, some form of effective copy protection is necessary and justified.

DRM? High minded Principles? I thought this was genre wars topic..

GO PIRATES! Way better than ninjas.

I have a a co-worker who is a big gamer mostly on Xbox360, but I persuaded him to get a PC. He soon discovered how to get free games by pirating them online.

Now, I tell him its wrong, you should always buy your games to support the developers.
He simply says, "why would I pay for it if I can get it for free".

I realize at that time, the average pirate isn't doing this for moral or ethical reasons, they just want free shit.

The Gamer's Bill of rights is cool for us. But it will do nothing for the masses of more casual gamers who don't read gaming websites like the Escapist, whom have strong feelings about gaming issues like DRM. The majority of people will accept DRM as long as it doesn't break their game and prevent the buying party from playing it. But given the chance, those same people will steal and pirate in a heartbeat.

I guess this is good news / bad news. Good news is, so many people enjoy the game that they are overloading the servers. Bad news is that many of them apparently chose not to pay.

They are complaining that no one buys their rip-off of a free wc3-funmap?
Wait...what?

CantFaketheFunk:
This makes me very, very sad.

Sadness is most definite.

I pirate simply because I can: pirating isn't even against the law here.

Which isn't to say I do it constantly, I simply have no compunctions against doing so if I choose.

Mythosx:
In reply to KDR.

Long answer: CD keys are based on an algorithm of the software signature, where the publisher makes a change to the data file on the CD. Any good cracker can crack a CD key as well, and what this causes to happen is that the pirates are then basically imitating actual paying people who are out there. Any copy-protection based on this risks tossing out the legitimate use in favor of the pirate. That's why Steam has a whole subsection on if you think your game key has been hijacked.

If CD keys are so easy to figure out, why don't people make, say, a key gen for MS or Nintendo points cards or prepaid cellphone charge cards? And what can stop the pirates from just hacking any account on the server then? Do the pirates somehow get access to the key generation algorithms in the authentication server? No, brute forcing should not work. If they just keep a database of the keys that were issued there should be no way to find a key reliably (provided the keyspace is large enough, of course but that's trivial to do), the only thing a pirate could figure out is if there's an algorithm in the installer that accepts/rejects keys and perfectly matches the one in the server (just putting a hash part into the key would be enough to make a system that detects incorrect entries without divulging the key algorithm though it'd probably be simpler to just check the key with the server). If you make it possible for people to break your key system you're doing something really, REALLY wrong.

Chinese hackers have hacked point cards for a few different services already. Apple being one of them.

Also most phone/live/iTunes cards are activated at the register. Hence why we leave stacks of them lying around. So it doesn't matter even if you have the code, you still have to have verification(activation from store) that it was paid for.

Malygris:

Kangol:
GOGO PIRATES!

This makes me very, very sad.

This obviously doesn't mean that DRM works. What it does mean is that virtually all claims of supporting piracy based on high-minded principle are complete garbage. People pirate because they can, plain and simple, and it seems pretty clear that while DRM as we've known it thus far is a failure, some form of effective copy protection is necessary and justified.

My thoughts exactly.
All the pirates tried to sound dignified by saying that they were going to use a cracked copy of any game with DRM because of the principle of it, but now they are just proving that if they can take something for free, they will.

If they really wanted to help the industry, they wouldnt be fucking over companies that are making an effort to provide a good customer service. We are in a global recession, things like this can cripple a company so fast right now.

The fact that Sins of a Solar Empire was not very pirated although being DRM free was just a coincidence. This should teach everyone that you need a minimum of DRM, as long as it's not intrusive. So the minimum is a serial. I don't even know if Demigod has a serial but I'm assuming not from what I read since just this would keep 90% of warez users out of the official servers.

Hankage:
I pirate simply because I can: pirating isn't even against the law here.

Which isn't to say I do it constantly, I simply have no compunctions against doing so if I choose.

a) Where do you live?*
b) Does it not feel selfish that your taking money from the people who made the game you got for free? Your just contributing to one of the problems that stops this industry from flourishing.

*Not so I can come over and give you a moral lecture, just was curious as to where Piracy isnt even illegal.

KDR_11k:
*snip*

I think you've misunderstood me: I dislike DRM. I was praising the company that makes this game and bashing on the pirates that stole it. Just to be clear :D

nova18:

Hankage:
I pirate simply because I can: pirating isn't even against the law here.

Which isn't to say I do it constantly, I simply have no compunctions against doing so if I choose.

a) Where do you live?*
b) Does it not feel selfish that your taking money from the people who made the game you got for free? Your just contributing to one of the problems that stops this industry from flourishing.

*Not so I can come over and give you a moral lecture, just was curious as to where Piracy isnt even illegal.

A) Canada. Nobody can be held legally responsible for anything we find online; it's not our fault it's there. As long as we aren't hosting it, we break no laws by downloading it.
B) No, not really. I mostly download music anyway; I dare you to tell me that's flourishing. Without laughing out loud, I mean.

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