gothaggis:
Having developed a game for both the 360 and PS3, I can assure you that it is way more of a pain in the ass to develop for the PS3 - and yes you need to throw more resources at it.

While that may be true, even indie developers can develop for multiple systems. A big, long running company of professional coders with lots of money like Valve saying "it's too hard to code for!" sounds a little off.

hansari:
WTF is Randy's problem?

Valve's expansions were the first games Gearbox Software ever did? Seriously

That's the first thing I thought of. We obviously don't know what would have happened otherwise, but if Gearbox hadn't worked on Opposing Force, who is to say there would have actually been a Borderlands? Perhaps there is a parallel universe out there where the only difference is that Gearbox never developed any Half-Life expansions. If anybody finds a way to visit it, let me know.

I'd view this differently if Valve had atcually attacked Gearbox personally themselves, but as it stands, turning round and having a go at valve for something that wasn't even directed at them in the first place seems a bit off if you ask me.

Valve stated that PS3 was a bitch to develop on. They're hardly the only ones to do so. Singling out Valve as saying "PS3 is difficult to develop for" and then claiming they're completely wrong seems silly. What they've said is simply that they'd have to devote a lot more time and resources to making a PS3 game and polishing it to the level they prefer, and that they don't see that as a profitable/worthwhile move.

Platform exclusion is par for the course. There are plenty of developers who work on only a single console, and plenty of others who exclude one of the major three (counting PC as a console). I don't see that Pitchford really has the right to criticize here, especially since Valve's decision to develop (or not develop) for PS3 really has no impact whatsoever on him.

Whether or not you agree with Pitchford, the two major points are that
1) Nobody really asked him, and he doesn't have a personal stake. In fact, he should be HAPPY that Valve excludes PS3, that's more development space for him to try and claim.

2) What the hell is he talking about when he says they're "reliant on the rest of the world"? Aren't ALL developers reliant on the rest of the world, and on publishers? This is kinda a "duh" comment, to me. If anything, Valve has made major steps in both becoming more self-reliant and in helping other developers do so. Last I checked, Gearbox still needs publishers too, and are far more reliant on 2K (and Valve, for that matter) than Valve is on EA.

3) I think we can all agree that Pitchford has been pretty liberal with the unsolicited criticism of Valve lately. Whether you think he's right or not.

I would point out Sony themselves claim the PS3 was made hard to work with so there would be a constant improvement as devs got a better grasp on how to work things. End result however is the same as the Xbox360 which companies end up wasting less money and come out with a better quality product now rather than crappy ones now and decent ones latter. PS3 also dropped the ball completely on getting their network gaming up and running. Xbox has always had a consistent online strategy which features big with Valves offerings.

Borderlands itself has issues that show big time that its a crappy console port. Control schemes optimized for a small number of buttons, item text that doesn't fit (For those that don't know what I'm talking about did you know that weapons have stats that are not shown? It only shows 4 bonuses but gear can have 6 or 7 and with some tweaks or through a dev console you can actually see it). Borderlands also uses gamespy for matchmaking rather than steam which means unless you know your friends gamespy aliases its very hard to get together with them.

Steam doesn't control the market, there is impulse and direct2drive out there. Steams big advantage comes from the excellent social tools, big indie market and support they give. http://www.neoseeker.com/news/12017-tripwire-steam-does-not-exploit-indie-developers/

Gibson specifically addresses the who exploitation business. He talks about his past experiences with Valve and how the Steam service has aided his studio's growth. Additionally, he claims that Steam offers indie developers a better chance at success compared to "traditional brick-and-mortar" publishers, whose proposals seem to leave devs high and dry.

As a small independent developer that has released multiple games on Steam, we are exactly the type of studio that Randy believes is being exploited by Valve. Additionally, as president of Tripwire Interactive, I've personally been involved in all of our business deals with Valve and have experienced firsthand how they treat independent developers.

So, is Valve exploiting independent developers? In short: absolutely not. Without pulling any punches, I can say with certainty that if it weren't for Steam, there would be no Tripwire Interactive right now.

In the early days, when we were shopping our first game Red Orchestra: Ostfront 41-45 around to traditional brick-and-mortar publishers, we were shocked at how terrible their proposals were. We were getting pitched offers like, "We'll give you a 15 percent royalty rate, take the IP rights to your game, and slap a $1.5 million administrative fee on top of your recoupment costs." And deals like this were being offered for a game we funded ourselves!

With deals like those, we were wondering how any third-party developer could be successful in the game industry. Under the terms of that deal, we would have needed to sell hundreds of thousands of units before we would have seen one cent of royalties. Enter Steam.

Gibson goes on to say that "Randy's statements" are unfair in their assessment, suggesting that smaller devs are being ripped off through Steam with crappy royalty rates. This just isn't true, according to Tripwire boss, who vaguely refers to their own deal with Valve. After pointing out other examples of indie games that have benefited from Steam, like Audiosurf and Zeno Clash, Gibson ends it all by advising:

... next time someone wants to say that small developers are getting exploited by Valve, I suggest they talk to a few first. Ask Garry Newman, creator of Garry's Mod, or Dylan Fitterer, creator of Audiosurf if they feel exploited. Ask the Tripwire Interactive employees if they feel exploited, as they move into their new offices paid for by the money the company has made on Steam. Or me, as I drive away from the company that was built from the royalties we made on Steam, in my sports car paid for by the royalties we make on Steam, to the home that I pay for with the royalties we make on Steam.

Steam is helping save the PC game market. With all the difficulties publishers go through regarding piracy (Yes, PC games are actually being hurt by piracy) Steam has solved the problem of PC game piracy and now developers have somewhere safe to publish content. Now they've even provided Demos for L4D2 so those of us on the fence can make experienced decisions on it. Wheres my Borderlands Demo hmmm???

On the current crazy Randy topic, is he actually crazy??? Valve stated the PS3 is too complex to develop for with the size of Valves studio. They got burned on the last outsource of a Valve game and refuse to do it again. Stop being a tard Pitchfork.

That said, Bravo bravo Yay borderlands.

I don't see Randy's name on the Valve CEO list therefore his opinions on Valve's development/business policy are uncalled for. You can almost sense a hint of jealousy on Randy's part.
I for one endorse Valve's dev/business plans. They have an amazing marketing strategy and most of all an amazing digital distribution platform.
All in all, Randy can go F**K himself, nobody gives a damn what he thinks.

shial:

Borderlands itself has issues that show big time that its a crappy console port. Control schemes optimized for a small number of buttons, item text that doesn't fit (For those that don't know what I'm talking about did you know that weapons have stats that are not shown? It only shows 4 bonuses but gear can have 6 or 7 and with some tweaks or through a dev console you can actually see it).

Off-topic: I didn't know that, can you point me in the right direction to figure out how to do that?

Jumplion:

CantFaketheFunk:
On the one hand, it's hard to say that Pitchford doesn't have even a single point, because he does. But on the other, Valve is an autonomous developer that has the right to develop for whatever platform it damn well pleases. If Gabe Newell were to suddenly announce that all future Valve titles would be programmed for the Atari Jaguar, then would anyone have the right to tell the developer that it couldn't

The problem is, though, that VALVe (more specifically Gabe Newell) badmouthed the PS3 for no real addequent reason because they never had any experience with it. And don't say Orange Box on Ps3, EA ported that.

VALVe can do whatever the hell they want, I agree with that. But ever since Gabe said "it's a waste of time", the PR Department have been desperately trying to scramble up the mess that he made. Everything from "It's just 'difficult'" to "we love you, that's why we're hurting you" to "we don't want to give PS3 owners the short end of the bone, so we won't give them a bone at all" and all that crap.

What Pitchford sees when he says "It's all very fanboyish" is that it's like an X-bot bagging Uncharted 2 when he's never played a single second of it in his life, or a Sorny guy mouthing off on how Natal is a piece of shit when he's never even waved a finger in front of it. VALVe is saying "Oh, it's too hard/complicated/time consuming to work with!" when they've had no experience with the damn platform.

If VALVe want to ignore the PS3, fine, just say "We don't have any plans to work with the PS3." That's a perfectly valid excuse. The problem is that they keep on muffin topping that excuse with more bullshit excuses like they have something to prove for some reason. And when they did say "We don't have any plans to work with the PS3" some idiot journalist brings up the damn topic again and the ride starts all over again.

Someone who posted with an actual response rather than "Gearbox is a bitch, I'm a Valve lover." I feel like I found sasquach.

OT: Adding to this guys point, I don't think stating an oppinon on somones business "methods" is really bitching, or else everytime we commented on somthing we would be bitching fanboys. Bitching about Pitchford bitching makes most of you Bitching Fanboys with that logic.

I hate it when people do that, it's just like being a fanboy really. Complaining that a developer didn't make their product for everyone is ridiculous. Valve can do whatever they want with their games and so can Gearbox.

shial:

Borderlands itself has issues that show big time that its a crappy console port. Control schemes optimized for a small number of buttons, item text that doesn't fit (For those that don't know what I'm talking about did you know that weapons have stats that are not shown? It only shows 4 bonuses but gear can have 6 or 7 and with some tweaks or through a dev console you can actually see it).

Although I havent played it on a pc Borderlands has without a doubt been the most fun game I've played to date(Xbox 360) I wouldn't really call it a crappy port because you can't read a couple stats. Also even though I'm not much of an RPG player the Damage, Accuracy, Fire Rate were the only stats I really needed. And to regards of the control scheme I thought it worked pretty awesomely, again I haven't played it on the pc though, probably never will either.

Srkkl:
I wouldn't really call it a crappy port because you can't read a couple stats.

There's also no anti-aliasing, a UI optimised for controllers (with mouse 'support' that is either minimal or non-existant), no way to toggle or turn off your mic in-game (it has to be done with tweaks), no way to turn on V-Sync (except with tweaks again) and probably a few more things I could whinge at but I'm not trying to badmouth the game per se, it's just a rather sloppy PC port.

Dyp100:
Man, I thought those two companies used to be good friends?

What the HELL is up with Randy waging war now?

Did Gabe sleep with his wife or something? Jealousy of there successes? IDK, it's kinda odd.

it actually has to do with a little debacle called counterstrike: condition zero. originally gearbox was going to be making that but valve pulled them from the project and it was given to ritual (who were then pulled when their version wasant up to snuff and turtle rock made the released version). but thats the just of it as i understand it.

in any case, i love how everyone, including randy pitchford, has no idea that steam was started because of patching issues with counterstrike, so that valve could simultaneously release patches for all clients and servers and leave nobody out in the cold when patches come out, and also to be able to release small fixes when needed instead of waiting and releasing large patches. after doing work with this THEN valve moved into digital distribution through steam.

Pendragon9:

Then again, this fits the whole "PC crowd who would rather rape their own mothers in horrible ways then see their god tier games get ported to consoles", so Valve is catering to their fanbase perfectly. Snob company goes hand in hand with snob fans.

yeah, you mean like ps3 gamers? you have any idea how much of a tizzy fit playstation fans threw when ff13 was announced for the 360? you really have no idea about what pc gamers are like, and i absolutly LOVE it when people like you show your ignorance. not a SINGLE pc gamer i know doesent own at least one console and plays it regularly. their not gung-ho about the platform in any way, unlike so many console fans.

also, when was valve REQUIRED to like, or develop for that matter, for the ps3? the system IS a bitch to program for if you know anything about how processors work. i agree that valve probably has their heads stuck up their own asses about the ps3, and they probably shouldnt have opened their mouths, but again, they arent REQUIRED to make games for it, thats their right and their perrogative.

OOOHHHH SNAAAAP DAAAWGG. Gabe U jus got SERVED BRAH!!!1!!1!shift+one!!111!1

Really?...REALLY? Pitchford is an idiot. If anyone should be accused of fanboyism it's him. Valve can do whatever the hell Valve wants to do. If they don't feel like wasting resources to develop for the PS3 they sure as hell don't have to just because Pitchford wants them too. I love how he throws in the childish comment when he is clearly the immature one in this situation.

Get over yourself Pitchford, and oh, fix your own damn games before you b#*&h about someone elses. kthxbai!

saregos:
1) Nobody really asked him, and he doesn't have a personal stake. In fact, he should be HAPPY that Valve excludes PS3, that's more development space for him to try and claim.

It's an interview.

That mindset doesn't sit right with Randy Pitchford, who in speaking to the UK's Official Playstation Magazine likened Valve's shunning of the PS3 - and Lombardi's statement in particular - to that of a fanboy in the console war:

Obviously someone asked him. And if he doesn't have a personal stake, wouldn't that allow him to give off more of his opinion?

3) I think we can all agree that Pitchford has been pretty liberal with the unsolicited criticism of Valve lately. Whether you think he's right or not.

And honestly, I don't really see anything wrong with it. It's about time some developers start expressing their own damn opinions and grow some balls without fear of being barraged by a bunch of knee-jerking posters.

^{oh wait...}

Besides, I say it's time for VALVe to be taken down a notch or two. It really annoys me whenever I see VALVe faithfuls take in all the crap that VALVe dumps on them at times. Hey, I love VALVe as much as the next guy, they're a good company, but damnit we shouldn't give freebies out just because it's VALVe. As much as I love Insomniac, I'm not about to just give them an instant 100 for their games.

But that's just my overall opinion, frankly VALVe has been annoying me lately both for valid reasons and stupid reasons.

While I disagree with him that Valve is selfish and childish he does have a point on consoles vs PC versions of Valve games.

It's true that Valve can develop for whatever platform they damn well please but whenever they release multi-platform games the consoles aren't only inferior they're FAR worse than their PC counterparts. TF2 being the prime example.

If Valve wants to make PC games (and although I don't have a PC I've seen no reason not to believe that they do it damn well) then they can go ahead, more power to them. But don't make a console versions to please anyone if its just going to suck and be ignored from there on out.

swaki:
"People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones"

Fix the multiplayer for borderlands on the pc before criticizing Valve, screwing over all the pc gamers in such a degree is no better than what valve did whit the ps3.

I agreed with you till the end, it wasn't valves fault with the Orange Box on PS3, EA ported all the games, Valve had nothing to do with it, Valve has NO PS3 development tools so they can't do anything.

Borderlands for PC is total shit in terms of online, you can't connect to anyone, I wound up using a 3rd party program to bypass gamespys shit online service.

Credge:

swaki:
"People Who Live In Glass Houses Should Not Throw Stones"

Fix the multiplayer for borderlands on the pc before criticizing Valve, screwing over all the pc gamers in such a degree is no better than what valve did whit the ps3.

You know, I would agree with you if I had ever had a problem with Borderlands on the PC... but so far it is the >least< buggy game I've played in years. Comparing this to L4D, which still has a plethora of the same bugs that have existed since launch and... well, I think Pitchford is on to something here.

Valve's knocking of the PS3 has always been fanboyish and not developing on the platform is childish. "It's a waste of time." Yeah, I'm sure it is. I think Naughty Dog and Insomniac agree with those sentiments too, what with the amazing games they make on the waste of time.

The bottom line is that Valve has been doing a lot of things very poorly over the last year and a half and is functioning similarly to how EA functioned before Mirrors Edge/Dead Space. You don't release bug filled games, barely patch the same game, and then announce the sequel for it not even a year after it's been released and then release what you announced 6 months later.

Oh wait, EA does that with Madden.

I agree with your post, though I kindly ask something from you, mostly because you're the first person I've seen bring this up.

Oh wait, EA does that with Madden.

Not flaming at all, just kinda curious, what's really wrong with EA publishing Madden every year the way they do? EA Sports is its own division, not really taking manpower away from other EA products. Abolishing EA Sports would just put the developers specializing in sports games out of work, and really, it would eliminate a good chunk of the profit EA could use to fund new ideas, if the way they've been doing business lately is any indication.

saregos:

shial:

Borderlands itself has issues that show big time that its a crappy console port. Control schemes optimized for a small number of buttons, item text that doesn't fit (For those that don't know what I'm talking about did you know that weapons have stats that are not shown? It only shows 4 bonuses but gear can have 6 or 7 and with some tweaks or through a dev console you can actually see it).

Off-topic: I didn't know that, can you point me in the right direction to figure out how to do that?

You actually have to modify a config file, they still havn't patched up the issues. These hidden lines are why some guns seemingly identical sell for vastly different amounts.

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1009442 Shows how to do it. I've heard of people suddenly finding out their guns have stuff like ammo regen or other attributes.

To enable most dx10 features you have to again directly edit the config files. Sticky posts on the steam forums show which are needed for that.

Gearbox is one of the few developers I'll willingly give my money to but what the fuck is Randy's sudden hatred over?

"Fanboy"

Says the pot to the kettle...

ratix2:

also, when was valve REQUIRED to like, or develop for that matter, for the ps3? the system IS a bitch to program for if you know anything about how processors work. i agree that valve probably has their heads stuck up their own asses about the ps3, and they probably shouldnt have opened their mouths, but again, they arent REQUIRED to make games for it, thats their right and their perrogative.

Ain't it the truth. The fact that the only workspace the SPEs have access to is a tiny local 64k of cache is ridiculous considering they're the part of the chip that does all the heavy lifting. The thing isn't designed for running complex programs. Having a heterogenous processor is one thing, requiring you to use the weakest part to divide up the workload and then assemble the product all the while keeping the load evenly balanced over all the other parts of the chip is another thing entirely. I haven't written code for one but the idea of trying to get anything more than relatively simple mathematical apps threaded like that makes my head hurt.

I think I hate every comment in this thread.

Valve is far from perfect.
Pitchford is far from perfect.

That's all I'm going to say. Both sides have their problems, and believe me, there's a lot of them.

They've said the PS3 didn't offer a good expense/gain ratio, how is this "fanboyish"?

ratix2:
snip

And here you go, proving my point. I can admit alot of Ps3 fanboys were real immature alot of times, and that's why I don't make too big a deal with exclusives. Yet you can't admit there are a good potion of PC gamers who hate Consoles like neat freaks hate motels. Double standard much? You PC gamers can't stand a little criticism, or are you in denial about how much you want to put consoles into concentration camps?

And another thing, I never said they were required to make games for certain consoles, but you PC gamers can't keep saying Valve is the best. Whenever they get arrogant, everyone is always defending them. And I'm tired of it. They're not the best. They're just another company. And right now they're not even doing a good job. Where's the next installment of Half Life for example? Hmm?

They;re starting to become like Activision. They act like retards, and people throw money at them.

But I don't wanna start anything, so I'm just gonna say I don't like the one sidedness I'm seeing in the thread. Gearbox isn't completely in the right, but they're not missing the mark too badly.

So let's not have this escalate.

I agree. Fuck Valve. That's right. I said it. They are punks for crapping all over the PS3 crowd. I say that are either to damned lazy or suck too much to make PS3 games awesome like Insomniac or even Bethesda. Oblivion was one example of a PC game that looked phenomenal and ran smoothly on the PS3. They did not screw the PS3 owners over by cutting it down to make it shit. Like Valve and EA did with the PS3 version of the Orange Box. Does anyone around hear Bethesda bitching over how hard the PS3 is to program for? NO. Gabe Newell is a fat ass punk bitch. He is a PC snob. They only reason Valve makes games for the 360 is because it is practically a PC in a box just like the first X-Box. So fuck Valve. I am done with them. Half-Life 2 Episode 3 can kiss my ass.

Isn't this coming from the guy whose company released a broken and shitty multiplayer system on the PC.

Randy Pitchford can kindly fuck off.

-Stranger-:

gothaggis:
Having developed a game for both the 360 and PS3, I can assure you that it is way more of a pain in the ass to develop for the PS3 - and yes you need to throw more resources at it.

While that may be true, even indie developers can develop for multiple systems. A big, long running company of professional coders with lots of money like Valve saying "it's too hard to code for!" sounds a little off.

I don't have any doubts that Valve could code for PS3 if they wanted to. It might be a bitch to do, but they could do it.

The thing is that Valve has decided, for whatever reason, that it's in their own interest to not work for the PS3. They may be wrong on that, but I'm willing to bet that they have a better handle on what is good for them rather than some PS3 fans on the internet think.

I also would be hesitant to say that Valve has "lots of money". They are still a medium-sized developer that doesn't have the financial backing of someone like Infinity Ward or Bethesda. Releasing a game that doesn't sell well on a platform is going to hurt them far more than a company like EA or Activision.

heh, funny to see that when one guy makes a legitimate comment in the PC company "Valve" everyone focuses in "whatever" but the point he was trying to make, Valve is great i know, but Console vs PC versions alway leaves the consoles with the short straw, what i think we should notice more is that valve is focusing on PC (make that Steam) rather than consoles leaving the console versions of their games to be an "incomplete" experience

and he was just stating it was unwise to hit the hand that feeds you, i mean, i know "Steam" is awesome and all that, but i dont see it supporting a company like valve only in "exclusive" titles.

well... this is just my opinion of course, i am not flaming am i??

Randy's just hurt because him and Gabe aren't best buddies anymore. Ever since Gearbox cocked up CS: Condition Zero and had their asses dumped in favour of Turtle Rock Studios, they haven't had another project with Valve. Turtle Rock, on the other hand, were getting all of Valve's second party work, and then during development of Left 4 Dead, Valve bought them up. Randy obviously wanted a job at Valve, but Mike Booth got it instead, and now he's sad.

Poor Randy :(

Or he could just still be trying to drum up controversy to sell a few more copies of Borderlands...

I gotta say its seems that Pitchford has gone off his meds. Valve makes games has their own way of getting them to people AND PEOPLE LIKE THE GAMES, i haven't seen the inside of a PS3 or is system bios but i can bet i wouldn't understand them, so if Valve's game dev team says it complex i tend to believe the people that know more about it than i do.

As for Pitchford calling Valve fan-boys ... um isn't that statement in itself a little childish? your calling Valve names.

The Xbox 360 is awesmoe and so is the PS3 but each system has a MASSIVE flaw in that they don't have the storage of a Computer, This is Valves reason for not having the unlockable weapons on the console version of TF2, There is no room left to put the damn things, the game was so large that is uses most of the consoles space. (while the game isn't 60gbs in size the downloadable unlock weapons and maps do add a large chunkc of used memory even on my 500gb hard drive)

I don't know what to say here.

I like Valve and Gearbox (because Borderlands in my opinion is better than any other Valve game), plus I'm not a great fan of the PS3.

So I'll just say "fuck it".

EDIT: So we have one company who apparently releases buggy ports and another who couldn't realese games in quick succession even if it killed them. And they're arguing about porting for the PS3 of all things.

This shit's messed up.

I just LOVE how outspoken these game companies are getting these days. It think it really shows how personal they take their job (in a good way). I wish the music and film industry were as outspokenly critical of their own industry.

"I noticed something on the net not too long ago. Doug Lombardi (Valve's VP Marketing) had to take a swipe at the PS3 again, and I thought it was foolish. I read it the same way I read fanboys. Like there's a guy who bought the Sony platform and he's a Sony guy, so he decides he's going to spend a certain percentage of his time bashing Microsoft. And there's a guy on Microsoft doing the same thing. Those guys are childish and narrow minded, it's the same kind of thing."

Then rise above it and STFU?

Also, if having a swipe at a competing platform is foolish, what is continually swiping at the platform you're currently developing for?

I know the true reason of Gabe's unwillingness to develop for PS3. It's because Ratchet & Clank is on it. I'm pretty sure it has something to do with the laws of cosmic balance and even distribution of awesomeness. Or it could just be hard to jump over from PC to Playstation,what with the different architecture and all.
/sarcastic remark

As for Gearbox,that Randy guy certainly does not like Valve,and Gabe personally. Sure,he has a point,but he's also whining.

Croaker42:

CantFaketheFunk:

Valve is an autonomous developer that has the right to develop for whatever platform it damn well pleases. If Gabe Newell were to suddenly announce that all future Valve titles would be programmed for the Atari Jaguar, then would anyone have the right to tell the developer that it couldn't?

Permalink

This exactly this.
All im hearing from Pitchford is his own brand of fanboy crying. Valve will do whatever Valve will do but im sure crying will help when you dont like it.

Yeah, pretty much. It's Valve's choice and this Pitchford bloke is pretty much bitching in his own fanboy warcry.

Have a tissue, Pitchfork.