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Muckraker  Posts: 289 Joined: 20 Nov 2008     | |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4899 Joined: 10 Jan 2009     |
What's the difference between using a good P2P client and having public dedicated servers though? Odds are, not much in the future. The move to P2P doesn't mean that all of that stuff is automatically going out the window. Personally, I feel that IW's other decisions about the game are bad, but they're not specifically connected to the decision to move to P2P. IW for some reason just doesn't want mods, or console commands. I don't know why that is, but it's something completely separate from their decision to go P2P. I say wait and see how exactly IW.net is implemented before complaining about it. It might be much better than other all the other P2P systems made so far: in fact, since it apparently uses Steamworks, I'd be willing to bet that it WILL be better than previous systems. Whether it will be good enough to replace dedicated servers, well... that remains to be forseen, but I really wish that people would stop acting like it's the goddamn apocalypse.
That depends on what games we're talking about. Different companies have different approaches to the ways that they handle dedicated servers. Some games run only off of servers the company employs, so when the servers go down: poof, there goes your multiplayer functionality. I honestly don't know how IW.net works or how the previous system worked, I'm not a IW employee: but if they're moving to a different system, odds are that system is either cheaper, more efficient, or both. |
Muckraker  Posts: 227 Joined: 5 Sep 2009     | Have to admit, this is an intriguing development... Christ, this shows my bias, but if Carmack's taking this stance, can't say I'm not open to seeing how they handle it. Now the question comes: Buy it for PS3 or PC...? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1389 Joined: 17 Nov 2008    | This doesn't seem to bode well for the future of online games. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3535 Joined: 14 Jan 2009     | Quake Live has nothing like dedicated servers at all, Infinity Ward is hardly..."Pioneering" it... And MW2 is a very multiplayer-focused game when RAGE isn't supposed to be that, so I've heard. |
Time Lord  Posts: 9962 Joined: 13 Feb 2008     |
Already revealed
So, the host gets the best ping until they quit, at which point there's a 5 second transition where it jumps to the new host. Remember that players can't be kicked, so a 400 ping can easily be host. You also can't unhost or refuse to host, so some ISPs will get miffed. When directly asked if MW2 on PC was simply a port of the console version, IW_Mackey responded "No, PC has custom stuff like mouse control, text chat in game, and graphics settings". Now if console players want as many upgrades for TF2 as the PC version has, perhaps they should be looking hard as this is where/why you're losing them. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1684 Joined: 7 Feb 2008    |
Uhh actually Quake Live does use Dedicated Servers. At the moment only id Software is paying for them. The Quake Live premium service will allow you to have your own private servers. To understand what a dedicated server is you must go to the meaning of the words dedicated server. It literally means that there is a piece of hardware out there dedicated to hosting a game of [insert number of player slots here]. Dedicated Servers are hosted at large data-centers where each blade could have up to four servers. Many players who have an extra PC box lying around with a decent internet connection could host their own dedicated server using the software that is often included in PC shooters. Some games have Dedicated Server software built into the game code itself, others use a separate EXE file that can be executed to host a dedicated server. Even World of WarCraft realm servers could be considered dedicated servers in the sense that they are always up and you can pick and choose what server you play on. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3535 Joined: 14 Jan 2009 |
Can I mod it? Oh, wait, no, I can't? Id has been talking about private servers (private as in I pay for one of their servers) for over a year now, yes? People have just gotten used to it and not care. The important features of a dedicated server are lost when it comes to the way that they've been doing things. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4150 Joined: 6 Sep 2008  | I wasn't even aware RAGE had a multiplayer component. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1684 Joined: 7 Feb 2008 |
You can call timeouts in 1v1 games, but timeouts have no place in public TDM/CA/FFA servers. Once their premium service comes out you'll be able to have such a feature on your own hosted server. You can't host your own maps, your maps need to be submitted to id. Many popular maps have been added, one good example is Aerowalk. You cannot kick people during games, only during the warmup phase. Considering the public nature of most servers, I agree with this. Like timeouts you will be able to kick people during games once premiums service (Private servers) come into play. You can force team balance using the /callvote shuffle command. Although it doesn't necessarily do any actual balancing as opposed to auto-balance features which were never in Q3A to begin with. You can't mod QLive, no. It's not meant to be modded. The Client/Server format used in QLive doesn't support modding. When it comes to Quake III Arena mods, it has become incredibly difficult for the new players to get into QLive. All but the most veteran Q3 players know where to get their 3Wave mappacks, Rocket Arena 3, OSPDM, and CPMA/Mappacks. QLive seeks to eliminate that possibility. As far as a dedicated server system, QLive still has a full featured server browser. You can filter games, and you get a list (albeit more graphical list) of current games. Have you ever hosted your own Quake 3 server? To be honest you shouldn't even have any gripes unless you really really want to host a QLive server of your own, which will be coming soon enough. As far as QLive's premium service itself goes, they have only recently announced it in the past few months. They have already introduced private servers, you can even see them on the server lists. Private servers are only available to leagues at the moment (GGL mainly). As far as the important features go, honestly QLive isn't missing much. You can pick and choose where to play just fine. The only feature that is missing is the ability to have any gaming community host their own servers, but as mentioned above that feature is coming soon enough. Let's face it though, QLive is nothing like RAGE. We have absolutely no idea what kind of multiplayer RAGE will have. We don't even know if it's going to even be a deathmatch styled game. Chances are it won't be. In all likelihood it will probably be small-scaled races, and maybe small scaled co-op or team-based combat much like L4D. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4899 Joined: 10 Jan 2009 |
That's presuming that the system would choose someone with 400 ping to host, which it wouldn't. As for the other part, yeah, that sorta sucks. They have vehemently denied that there is a host advantage.
How different do you want the versions to be, really? How much do games on consoles usually differ from their PC counterparts? Usually, it's only those three things, along with mods, console commands, and however the game's multiplayer works. In this case, IW's removed mods and ccs (a bad decision I admit, but they have nothing to do with this discussion), and made the last to be similar/the same as the console version. You're not getting a lesser experience than the console versions: you're just getting the same experience, for the same amount of money that everyone else is. If PC gamers out there feel that they should get more features due to the nature of the platform, I can dig that: but the amount of hatred and elitism that they've displayed across the forums has turned everyone who isn't a PC gamer against them. The amount of times that quote has been brought up alone would seem to suggest that the PC elitists out there feel that getting anything similar to the console version is an affront to their godly system of choice: THAT is the reason that the console gamers are opposing the PCers. IW's simply made the multiplayer the same for both console and PC: and while I do think that completely removing dedicated server support was a bad move, the constant whining over a system that hasn't even been released to the general public yet is driving me batshit insane. It reeks of that childhood habit of seeing something green on your plate and going: BUT MOOOOOOOM, I DON'T WANT THIS! At least try it before you mock it, that's all I want. If it turns out to be a pile of dung, then go ahead and complain: but until then, I don't want to hear any more complaining. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3535 Joined: 14 Jan 2009 |
Aerowalk isn't playable yet. Do you mean bloodrun? We had to use a lot of WHINE with our cheese just to get THAT included. Colored 'nades? lol. I want a server where I can play my own maps, you know? The private servers are good, at least for CTF, and duel but that's for what, 1% of the community? You need to be on IRC, pm someone who can spawn them, etc, etc, whatever. I could go on, but it's pointless. You're right: I have no idea what kind of multiplayer RAGE will have. I just hope it's not the empty, broken shell that Quake Live is. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2956 Joined: 7 Oct 2008  | Whatever. It's just Id. I bet Rage is gonna be SUCH a great game. That said, it would kinda suck if this became the norm. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 1 Joined: 7 Nov 2009 | Another asinine desision from another developer who should know better. Carmack used to work for Activision, so you can see the dead hand of Bobby Kotick in this statement. All it means is more money for Dice and EA Games. Honestly, some devlopers are to stupid for their own good. Meanwhile PC gamers, don't worry the PC is still the dominant gaming platform in the world, no matter what the console crowd would have you believe. This move to consoles is only a temporary affair, in a few years it'll be swinging back toward PC's again, and the xbox and all the rest of them will be consigned to the dustbin of gaming history. i.e. look at all the other consoles that have come and have now gone. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 516 Joined: 29 Jun 2009   | Hrm... So basically another game I will be passing on. Ah well, what can ya do? I guess it just goes to reinforce the fact that these companies are there to make money, not succumb to every whim that a portion of their customer base demands. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 711 Joined: 31 May 2009    |
Even more interesting that Carmack doesn't explain the merits of his position... |
Time Lord Posts: 9962 Joined: 13 Feb 2008 | Scotth: Don't you think that's a little unfair? Lazy 'ports have been made since the Spectrum era, and people haven't been lambasted openly for opinions. All we're really asking for is a reason why they're moving to this new untested system and banning the old one. Neither IW or Carmack will say why. That's hardly a reason to call us elitist three times in one post, is it? It's not like it's SSBB again. |
Press Junketeer Posts: 418 Joined: 29 Oct 2009  |
Which is a bit like cutting off everyone's dicks just because women don't have them. Or burning down a building because the building next door burned down too. The PC has certain intrinsic advantages that consoles do not, and to deliberately go out of one's way to disable those advantages is just lunacy. PCs and consoles are not the same and should not be the same. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 357 Joined: 3 Dec 2008    |
This is the latest ploy from the game designers, make games fun for a limited time, so we have to buy more games. At least for me, I've been getting the Indie and small time PSN games for awhile now. Great! I'm glad to hear this news. Sounds like a golden opportunity for an Indie team to stake new ground and maybe bring some innovation to a stale genre. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1427 Joined: 19 Jun 2009   | Im hating developers for ditching pc gamers to the point i hope someone pirates their game so they get less money -_- |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 63 Joined: 31 Oct 2008   | Wait? Is he saying there won't be dedicated server support, or that they won't host dedicated servers. If its type one thats bad, if its type two, that more then tolerable. I'm just trying to get this clarified. |
Anonymous Source Posts: 5 Joined: 18 Mar 2009   | i'm gonna RAGE if there aren't any Linux excutables |
Muckraker  Posts: 330 Joined: 17 Jul 2009   | I think this might be to stir up a little talk about Rage even if it will be mostly negative comments on the topic... I should PC gamers have the things that make the experience fun and unique taken away because some people don't know how to use a server list, which IMO is much faster and easier to use. Then there's the removal of mods, I don't mind in MW2 because I didn't mod that, but think if some games that really gain replay value from mods (I.E. most Bethesda games) were to suddenly lose them (I'm not saying Bethesda would I'm just using them as an example). |
Beat Writer  Posts: 183 Joined: 29 Apr 2009   |
I can choose the modes I want to play on any console multiplayer I've played on. It seems to me like dedicated servers are outdated.
This is hilarious to me. The PC is the biggest game market in the world? Really? That's pretty laughable if you look at the numbers. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4899 Joined: 10 Jan 2009 |
And this is why nobody listens to you guys: you act like four year olds while complaining, instead of being mature about it. |
Games Editor  Posts: 4226 Joined: 20 Dec 2005     |
What? John Carmack has never worked for Activision. Several of his games have been PUBLISHED by Activision, but Carmack has been at id since ~1990, and they're owned by Zenimax now. You may not like Activision, but blaming them for every little negative move in the industry is horrendously foolish and short-sighted. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4899 Joined: 10 Jan 2009 |
Which is why there's so much flame directed at IW for even DARING to mention the idea. I'm not objecting to your opinions on the dedicated server issue, I'm objecting to the way a good majority of your fellows are acting about it. I think it's a GOOD thing to question the move to P2P, especially since the only game I remember with such a system was Gears Of War 2, and I don't have fond memories of that: but the ridiculous way some people are behaving has turned me against them. The dick analogy I quoted a little later on in the thread is a good example of why I'm more willing to listen to IW then to the complainers. Hell, the anti-L4D2 crowd was more civil than this. I feel that there's a certain amount of trust that can be placed in these developers: there's got to be a reason for them to do this. Whether or not it amounts to anything good for the players is yet to be seen, but that's just it: we won't know how well the system works until people get their hands on the game and test it for themselves. Yet people don't seem to be willing to give it a chance. Also, I'm mostly a PC gamer these days. The only people I accuse of being elitist among the PC crowd are those who act like IW has been bringing them a dumbed-down console version. Considering that you all seem to have loved the first MW so much, what makes you think that this is going to be a sloppy port job, even with their (unwise) decisions to eliminate most extras that PC games usually feature? |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 57 Joined: 16 Aug 2009  | I'm sick of internet petitions. |
Pulitzer Laureate  Posts: 800 Joined: 11 Feb 2009  | If RAGE's multiplayer is just 4-player co-op, I can kind of understand (even though Left 4 Dead has dedicated servers despite having matchmaking). Still though, I hope to God this doesn't catch on. Edit: Heh, my 777th post. Maybe that means I'm lucky and it won't catch on. |
Time Lord Posts: 9962 Joined: 13 Feb 2008 |
I'm seriously trying to find these people as I don't believe anyone here thinks that console are all bad, but we're being painted as such, just because we have a PC. There's an unbelievable torrent of hate coming towards the PC gaming community as of late and I just want to find out why? If IW wish there to be 9vs9, rotating hosts, no mods, no records, then perhaps that's just a dick move on their part; but if Carmack is doing it, roughly at the same time, then it feels as if there's something WAY bigger than just dedicated servers on the line here, and we really don't want to lose the thing that makes us unique. Apologies for any grammatical errors, I'm slaughtered atm. |
On the Record  Posts: 6631 Joined: 31 Dec 2008  | I am completly speachless Grrrr |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 4899 Joined: 10 Jan 2009 |
There are several out there in Game Discussion who've either said that outright, or at least heavily implied that they're insulted to recieve the same/a similar version of the game as the console owners: trust me. I'd go sweep all the threads, but I'm all "controversied-out" at the moment, and I can't stand the thought of looking at another one of those endless shouting matches. I don't have a problem with users like you or Roguewolf, who voice their discontent like adults. Heck, if I played MW on the PC, odds are I'd be siding with you, and I'm already a little miffed at how the console version has no party chat in certain game modes. I DO have problems with people acting like this though. If the PC gamer crowd wants to get through to the console gamer crowd about why this is such a bad thing, you're going to need to stop people from acting like this: otherwise the console gamers are going to stick their fingers in their ears and merrily ignore you. The only reason I'm even attempting to side with IW/Carmack on this issue is because I want to play Devil's Advocate, and because I'm sort of curious to see what these companies have in store for us. I'm guessing that this is sort of a preliminary test for them: a way to innovate the way they think about multiplayer, and that as a result these early games are going to be a bit rough around the edges. It could wind up that this turns into a "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" situation, but someone's got to be willing to try and shake things up. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2451 Joined: 1 Sep 2008    | I swear to God, this better not become a trend... |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1203 Joined: 19 Jan 2009    |
...? (And no, I'm not a pirate, but I'd like to know how they are responsible.) |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1203 Joined: 19 Jan 2009 |
As a PC fanatic, I think that you need to <cries> |
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Meh. PC fanboys can blow things way out of proportion sometimes. Simply don't buy the game if you don't like that they dropped dedicated servers.