Well region locking is ridiculous to begin with, especially when it's done for reasons of encouraging censorship. The bottom line here is that it appears this was being done to nail cheaters and perhaps people who purchused pirated copies of MW2, however they pretty much ham fistedly attacked everyone that they could detect as running a modded console as I understand things. Paticularly annoying when you consider your paying $10 a month for this service and you'd expect them to have more people involved to you know... actually police the networks and single out cheaters. 20 Million users apparently on their gold service at roughly $10 a month means they are making roughly $200 million dollars a month. In defense for their "Greed" they (and other services) talk about the expense of paying all these people to maintain and police the network but in the end, where the heck are they all? The point here being that they aren't supposed to simply identify certain signs and hit a massive impersonal "ban switch".

At any rate from what I'm hearing a million bans is actually conservative, and the number might be as large as two million (10% of their user base). Microsoft refutes it, but apparently does not know how many people they banned due to the method they used. Some of the reports coming in are guesstimates based on the number of complaints.

( When I read this on The Escapist I did some checking and there is a lot of mixed information on the subject at this point, along with a lot of upset people. I don't claims have hard numbers, I'm just saying that it appears nobody does, including Microsoft ).

Misleading title... Kind of.

I find it hard to respect any efforts to ban cheaters when the blatant and transparent reason for it is to boost Xbox sales over Christmas.

But didn't they also say that the instances of rrod were overblown too?
They say a lot of things over there.

The fact of the matter is that both instances let to another boom of hardware purchases so the more people affected, the better it is for them. But like with the rrod, they're going to have an even harder time getting new adaptors.

Jdopus:
I find it hard to respect any efforts to ban cheaters when the blatant and transparent reason for it is to boost Xbox sales over Christmas.

Or...they waited until the most people would be playing Xbox Live (aka the day after CoD6) to find the most cheaters they could in one shot. And the thing is, these people that modded their console are just going to do it again, and get banned again. And if they don't, then mission fuckin' accomplished by Microsoft.

GonzoGamer:

The fact of the matter is that both instances let to another boom of hardware purchases so the more people affected, the better it is for them. But like with the rrod, they're going to have an even harder time getting new adaptors.

How is RRoD and this at all related? RRoD was Microsoft's fault and was a wide spread technical design flaw, but banning people that have consoles designed for pirating and cheating shouldn't affect anyone that doesn't use them.

If you're dumb enough to mod your console to run pirated software and still expect to be able to play online, it's your own goddamn fault. These folks are just plain dumb.

Therumancer:
Well region locking is ridiculous to begin with, especially when it's done for reasons of encouraging censorship. The bottom line here is that it appears this was being done to nail cheaters and perhaps people who purchused pirated copies of MW2, however they pretty much ham fistedly attacked everyone that they could detect as running a modded console as I understand things. Paticularly annoying when you consider your paying $10 a month for this service and you'd expect them to have more people involved to you know... actually police the networks and single out cheaters. 20 Million users apparently on their gold service at roughly $10 a month means they are making roughly $200 million dollars a month. In defense for their "Greed" they (and other services) talk about the expense of paying all these people to maintain and police the network but in the end, where the heck are they all? The point here being that they aren't supposed to simply identify certain signs and hit a massive impersonal "ban switch".

At any rate from what I'm hearing a million bans is actually conservative, and the number might be as large as two million (10% of their user base). Microsoft refutes it, but apparently does not know how many people they banned due to the method they used. Some of the reports coming in are guesstimates based on the number of complaints.

( When I read this on The Escapist I did some checking and there is a lot of mixed information on the subject at this point, along with a lot of upset people. I don't claims have hard numbers, I'm just saying that it appears nobody does, including Microsoft ).

Of course, in more than one thread now, you've operated under a lot of assumptions which don't necessarily ring true. And now we're talking about rumour and hearsay as well, which doesn't help things. 1 Million seems unlikely, especially from an already unfounded source. 2 million becomes even more preposterous, without only the intertube chatter to back it. Now, I dislike region locking, and question the ethics (and more) about it, but I'm curious as to what in it would legitimately fall under a right one cannot sign away. Arguments of censorship are a different animal, so I'm having trouble seeing what right is the issue here.

I thought it was a little odd that, according to the report, 5% of all Microsoft Live accounts were registered with modded consoles.

You know... You would think you would be able to find out if 1 million fucking people got the ban hammer... I think that would be kind of a big story...

Million Man Ban has a nice ring to it. The story isn't nearly as juicy or interesting unless the number really pops. A lack of sources for the original writer of the story and no number released by Microsoft makes it all hearsay.

Well, ok not a million but still a fair share of people felt that ban hammer.

Therumancer:
Well region locking is ridiculous to begin with, especially when it's done for reasons of encouraging censorship. The bottom line here is that it appears this was being done to nail cheaters and perhaps people who purchused pirated copies of MW2, however they pretty much ham fistedly attacked everyone that they could detect as running a modded console as I understand things. Paticularly annoying when you consider your paying $10 a month for this service and you'd expect them to have more people involved to you know... actually police the networks and single out cheaters. 20 Million users apparently on their gold service at roughly $10 a month means they are making roughly $200 million dollars a month. In defense for their "Greed" they (and other services) talk about the expense of paying all these people to maintain and police the network but in the end, where the heck are they all? The point here being that they aren't supposed to simply identify certain signs and hit a massive impersonal "ban switch".

At any rate from what I'm hearing a million bans is actually conservative, and the number might be as large as two million (10% of their user base). Microsoft refutes it, but apparently does not know how many people they banned due to the method they used. Some of the reports coming in are guesstimates based on the number of complaints.

( When I read this on The Escapist I did some checking and there is a lot of mixed information on the subject at this point, along with a lot of upset people. I don't claims have hard numbers, I'm just saying that it appears nobody does, including Microsoft ).

Yes preach it brother/sister bring down those money grubbing greedy companies! what type of world are we living in where WE allow bussinesses to make money!!
/extreme sarcasm

TheTygerfire:

GonzoGamer:

The fact of the matter is that both instances let to another boom of hardware purchases so the more people affected, the better it is for them. But like with the rrod, they're going to have an even harder time getting new adaptors.

How is RRoD and this at all related? RRoD was Microsoft's fault and was a wide spread technical design flaw, but banning people that have consoles designed for pirating and cheating shouldn't affect anyone that doesn't use them.

What I'm saying is that both instances (regardless of blame) forced a lot of 360 owners to go out and buy another console. Even after ms started expanding the warranty , there were still plenty of suckers who even bought a spare 360 to play while the other was in for repairs.

While the rrod ended up being a bigger cost in the long run, it did help them move a lot of units.

What doesn't make any sense to me is:

If he's telling the truth about the "1 million" number being way too high, why would he not just tell us the actual number?

Griping about speculation when you refuse to give out the real info is pretty asinine in my book.

Doesn't matter, as long as they got banned they got what they deserve. Though I still feel sorry for any of those people who were wrongfully banned even when they were innocent, that will shun them all away from the 360 and XBL.

i love it when people who broke the rule starts complaining, its like whit arkham asylum and the jumping issues.

its like wanting a return because you stole a defect oven.

I can tell you exactly where InformationWeek got their info: http://pinoycosplay.blogspot.com/2009/11/microsoft-bans-600k-xbox-live-accounts.html

For your convenience, here's the "article" (posted November 9) in full, just so you can compare the original with what InformationWeek made out of it:

A conversation with a friend who works for a call center that handles an Xbox 360 account has yielded a disturbing truth: Microsoft has started its annual Xbox Live banning spree and it has disabled 600,000 accounts so far in the US and Canada.

The target of the banning spree are mainly people who have modified their consoles to play pirated games. My trusty source says that they have been given instructions to push for a million banned accounts by the time the holidays are over.

"Our office has gone to hell," says the source. "People have been calling in around the clock and most of them are screaming teen-agers who don't understand the terms of use that comes with the console they bought."

There you have it. If you're a big Mininova fan like GamerTotoy, stay away from Xbox Live until after Christmas to continue playing online.

I already mentioned as much (without the link though) in the original article on Escapist, but I guess nobody of importance reads the comments, do they? :D

The tubes were alive with the sound of pissed-off Xbox Live user.

So that is the sound of millions of beer bottles breaking as the user gets up from his "gaming chair" and high-pitched 12 year old boys yelling at once? This must be chaos...
/horrible stereotype

Therumancer:
*snip

When you paid for Xbox Live you agreed to this clause in their Terms of Service

You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way

Unauthorized meaning modded in this case. So Microsoft are fully within their right to ban ANYONE with a modded console, regardless of whether or not they use it to cheat or not. Don't like it? Don't play online with a modded console.

OT: So InformationWeek basically took a guesstimate made by a random employee and turned it into a fact of how many consoles were banned? Oh yeah thats great reporting right there...

Wow...that sounds incredibly funny. Even if a million people got banned as long as they had a reason to ban them who gives a damn? No offense to anyone who got banned, but it was your fault.

Avykins:
Well even if they did. Who cares? You run a modded xbox and they have every right to ban you yes?
I have no problem with people doing this shit but if they get caught then its their own damn fault.
However the hardware destroying firmware upgrade that only allows MS harddrives was over the top douchebaggery.

Microsoft say's its not a million, a news site says it is?

WHO CARES WHETHER IT WAS A MILLION OR TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND OR TEN THOUSAND OR WHATEVER?

Personally, I hope they nail as many modders as they can get

Bigeyez:

When you paid for Xbox Live you agreed to this clause in their Terms of Service

You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way

Unauthorized meaning modded in this case. So Microsoft are fully within their right to ban ANYONE with a modded console, regardless of whether or not they use it to cheat or not. Don't like it? Don't play online with a modded console.

Finally, someone with sense. I'm honestly staggered at the amount of complaining going on at this. Modding your console is not allowed, everyone knows this, especially the people that do it, this was inevitable.

Rusty Bucket:

Bigeyez:

When you paid for Xbox Live you agreed to this clause in their Terms of Service

You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way

Unauthorized meaning modded in this case. So Microsoft are fully within their right to ban ANYONE with a modded console, regardless of whether or not they use it to cheat or not. Don't like it? Don't play online with a modded console.

Finally, someone with sense. I'm honestly staggered at the amount of complaining going on at this. Modding your console is not allowed, everyone knows this, especially the people that do it, this was inevitable.

Having your console banned from live WOULD really suck. And when things suck, people have the natural tendency to search out why and point at it. Problem is, people don't like to look to themselves when they have to do this. It means coming to grips with losing, being wrong, failing, etc. And so they will look everywhere else but the one place they should. The mother f-ing mirror.

Bigeyez:

Therumancer:
*snip

When you paid for Xbox Live you agreed to this clause in their Terms of Service

You agree that you are using only authorized software and hardware to access the Service, that your software and hardware have not been modified in any unauthorized way

Unauthorized meaning modded in this case. So Microsoft are fully within their right to ban ANYONE with a modded console, regardless of whether or not they use it to cheat or not. Don't like it? Don't play online with a modded console.

OT: So InformationWeek basically took a guesstimate made by a random employee and turned it into a fact of how many consoles were banned? Oh yeah thats great reporting right there...

I received 3 responses to what I wrote, and will try and handle them all with this response. Apologies if this is confusing I don't want to generate too much spam.

Well, in this paticular case I am not saying that they do not have the right, but rather that they should not have the right. There is a distinct differance. I'm not claiming that they did anything illegal, merely that what they did is wrong, and probably SHOULD be illegal.

As far as comments about "well when you clicked accept on the EULA you signed away rights and agreed to let them do this" I do not feel that such "contracts" should be binding. Similar to how many doctors will get patients to sign waivers claiming that they won't sue for malpractice (or whatever) but such agreements are just paper and fundementally meaningless in any serious conflict. The goverment basically having decided that rights are inherant and not something you can sign away to another citizen in that context. I feel this is a similar type of situation, and demonstrates why EULAs and such should be either done away with entirely, or simply officially declared non-binding.

Especially seeing as the terms of the EULA are not disclosed when you buy a console, or even most software.

Whether or not you agree with me here, this is still my opinion.

The issue of censorship is something else entirely, and again comes down to companies pandering to censors rather than fighting them. I have a hard time defending a company in it's efforts to quash free speech. Stopping cheaters is one thing, censoring people is quite
another. The problem with going after modders in general is that at the same time they are nailing the cheaters, they are nailing those who are simply bucking censorship, and in targeting them I feel that even if within their rights Microsoft is doing the wrong thing. Of course then again I feel there shouldn't be any need to mod to begin with, Microsoft simply shouldn't be supporting any kind of media/information locks.

-

As far as companies being forbidden to "make money" (in response to other posts), I am a firm believer in the American ideal of capitolism. It's fine to make money. I do gripe at people for being ridiculously greedy, but that's all I generally do since really I don't think it's right to put laws into place to stop people from profiteering, it's up to consumers to do that. Mostly in cases of companies making a ton of money I simply call "BS" to some of their claims and call greed and corruption when I see greed and corruption.

On the other hand also understand that the American ideal of capitolism DOES put certain limitations on capitolism, which to some means that it's not true capitolism. For example in the US it is illegal to either create or hold a monopoly, OR to engage in "Cartel" type behavior. The idea in the US being that there always must be competition, and no one person or group of people is allowed to exclusively control something. In cases where a monopoly or virtual monopoly is nessicary for a service, such as in the case of utility companies, then the goverment regulates them and it becomes the exact anti-thesis of true capitolism.

Examples of this can be found in what has happened with Ted Turner and his attempts to basically become the god emperor of all media. The goverment has stepped in to stop him from doing this in the past, and keeps an eye on him otherwise.

When it comes to cartel behavior an example is the recent contreversy over US gas prices where gas companies were accused of working together to set prices and coordinate a price hike. This kind of coodination being illegal in the US. The idea being that people in the same business are supposed to compete with each other to provide the highest quality product for the lowest price as opposed to doing things like the gaming industy has been doing by basically agreeing that all games will cost X amount of money and adjusting release schedules so products won't have to compete with each other and so on.

In a general sense I mostly yell "corruption" in cases where these principles are not followed. It has nothing to do with this subject for example, but when I talk about the gaming industry's business practices, it seems to me that the issue is primarly one where for all the millions of gamers there just aren't enough of us for the goverment to really care.

This is getting long and rambling, however I will say that I am hardly against companies making money. However if you act like a greedy, corrupt twit, I have no objections to calling you one.

-

As far as the the nature of my "sources" goes here and in other threads, take a look at my posts and how much I cover. A lot of times the information is there, it's just people miss it. In other cases it would simply take a huge post and make it even huger. In yet others like THIS case I myself mentioned my own sources being dubious, so pointing this out in response to me is more along the "duh" catagory. All I was saying is that from the noise I was looking at it seems like the problem could be even bigger.

I myself pointed out nobody knew for sure, of course Microsoft wants to downplay it, and others want to expand it. We may not ever get hard figures. We will have to see what happens.

Fat_Hippo:
If you're dumb enough to mod your console to run pirated software and still expect to be able to play online, it's your own goddamn fault. These folks are just plain dumb.

Chocolate chip, or oatmeal and raisin? ;O)

I know a couple of folks that were hit with ze ban, and to be honest, both of them are fairly ok with it. Since they've saved a couple of hundred pounds at the least playing pirated games, they still think they're one up on MS anyway, even after having to purchase new consoles!

1 Million is a

Malygris:
"'small percentage' of the 20 million Xbox Live users worldwide"

What would make me laugh is if Microsoft is going to bullshit us by finally revealing that instead of 1 Million, they banned 937, 822 users or some shit.

Along the line of this piece of news is a Holocaust denial joke just WAITING to be unleashed.