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Nobel Laureate  Posts: 15810 Joined: 31 Dec 2008     | |
Paperboy Posts: 50 Joined: 21 Oct 2008    |
JESUS. Christ, this is a horrid story. WHY DATEL WHY |
Beat Writer  Posts: 212 Joined: 1 Nov 2009     | Why would Microsoft do this? Do they really need the extra money from memory card sales? |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 513 Joined: 25 Mar 2009     | They've done what? i keep pretty much my entire profile data on 4gb cards due to the fact that i dont currently have my own 360 and often go round mate places to play |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2393 Joined: 10 Nov 2008     | I don't see how it's unlawful. It's their hardware and they can do what they want with it really. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 638 Joined: 15 Jan 2009   | so I'm guessing that all the commentors here are too young to remember when United States v. Microsoft, antitrust case It ended with Microsoft being forced to stop making their operating systems that made it difficult for the competition to get in the market. Like making it difficult for users to use competition programs on their OS. I'd bet Datel will win this one. |
On the Record  Posts: 6496 Joined: 16 Dec 2008  |
Monkeys or no deal! I'm not one of those people who always hates on Microsoft, but come on! This is so scummy, so low down, and such a dirty move on their part. Banning third party memory cards because they are bigger and better? Beyond scummy. |
Muckraker  Posts: 292 Joined: 20 Oct 2009    | Well technically its their product they can change the console`s specifications as much as they want. . .. But yes viewing this as a ban of better product. . . and not just a lil bit but seriously over-powered card then it is a weird move :O |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 63 Joined: 14 Jun 2008    |
Nice reply. Also you provide a interesting view on this debate. Xbox 360 (and their memory cards) are not really the open form factor everyone think it is. |
Paperboy  Posts: 28 Joined: 13 Dec 2008     | It doesn't have anything to do with memory card competition or size imo. It has to do with piracy and Datel making it easier. And selling more memory units because of it. It doesn't take too much thought or research to find out the "why" of the MS decision. Datel memory units allow interface between PCs and 360s. Datel had to know it was coming, MS didn't just do this out of the blue, they complained to Datel first. Notice MS isn't whining about other peripherals... http://www.ripten.com/2009/05/18/datels-xbox-360-memory-card-supports-16gb-microsdsdhc-cards/ |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1156 Joined: 24 Mar 2009    |
Memory sticks. This will be interesting to see how it plays out. For one, Microsoft has the argument that the Xbox is their property, therefore they can pick what gets used with it. But on the other, Microsoft does not hold the patent on flash technology, therefore they are being anticompetitive with this action. It's practically a coin toss, but it may very well affect how third party media is produced for consoles down the road on how this gets determined. (Unless Microsoft pulls a hostile takeover of Datel and therefore renders the lawsuit moot, which would be in their nature, but might not be in their budget atm.) |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 694 Joined: 16 Mar 2008  |
I thought a gentlemanly duel would be more appropriate. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1156 Joined: 24 Mar 2009 |
That case is a different ballgame. In this one where the 360 is concerned, Microsoft owns the OS and the console it operates on, so it has a more legit say about what gets used on it. PC's are such an open domain, not even produced by Microsoft at all, that it would be a trust issue with Microsoft playing playground bully. Microsoft is still playing big bully on this one, but Datel doesn't really have much hope. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2746 Joined: 25 Jul 2009    | When someone does something better than you, be a bitch about it. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 4184 Joined: 29 Dec 2007   |
I'm fairly sure that monopolies are a bad thing, what with the whole Sherman Antitrust Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman_Antitrust_Act. If I build a house and sell it to you, do I have the right to decide over every item you put in that house? |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2346 Joined: 27 Dec 2008    |
Or... THUNDERDOME TWO MEN ENTER ONE MAN LEAVES |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 53 Joined: 19 Mar 2009    | *Should* MS allow third party hardware? Do they *have* to? That being said, the money in consoles is in the accessories. Anytime another company gets a sale, that's cash out of MS' pocket *unless* they've paid a licensing fee to MS. I'd be willing to be that they come to some sort of licensing agreement with Datel in the near future - old cards will still be locked out, but new ones will be introduced - for just a bit more then they were before. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1609 Joined: 25 Jul 2008    | A San Fransico court? Microsoft might as well settle right now, they don't stand a chance in hippie-ville who just love to fuck over big corporations. I hope this has global effects as if memory cards open up, how long till I can buy an Xbox 360 hard drive for competitive prices like I can for my PS3? Then again, I'm a long way from filling my 360's HDD and the only console HDD I see filling up quickly is my PS3 due to my soon to arrive PlayTV adaptor which turns my PS3 into a rather effective PVR, to record hours and hours of broadcast TV now that would need a 500GB HDD. But there are very few movies worth downloading to keep on 360, 60GB is about good enough for me right now. |
On the Record  Posts: 6426 Joined: 7 Mar 2008     |
there i fixed that for you, they've already been convicted of it, they were almost carved up into 3 different companies but then Bush Jr got into power and he stopped everything good that could have come from that decision
they did say they were going to do this several months ago. it's rather stupid that they did it and i hope they lose badly in court the funny thing is after them behaving like this time and time again people still go out and buy their consoles. if you want them to NOT do this DON'T BUY THEIR CONSOLES and if you do have a 360, go sell it and get something else. it's as simple as that. |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 464 Joined: 5 Sep 2009 | Look, I get the whole anti-piracy thing is a big deal for companies and all that, but let's face it: Microsoft has been going after a fly with a rocket launcher. This is hardly a targeted approach. With all the collateral damage that their update has been causing, it's not excusable. After all, you can't argue that you're "just defending your company" if you end up hurting/putting out of business other firms altogether. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1609 Joined: 25 Jul 2008 |
It was THEIR product until they sold it to me. I didn't rent it, I don't have to return it after a certain period, it is MINE. Copyright and patent laws stop me duplicating it but shouldn't stop me doing anything to it. Now a service like XBL does have reasonable and legal terms of service, but something like memory capacity has nothing directly to do with the proper running of XBL so they have no justification to ban them for using Datel memory cards or anything else. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1928 Joined: 13 Aug 2009  |
Well that's a bit uncalled for because many people like me still enjoy the 360, something like this shouldn't make us toss is out, their customers just need to demand fair treatment, which may sound impossible but even if we have a choice to not own theiur product their customers still have rights because they are loyal customers and bought the 360. |
Paperboy Posts: 26 Joined: 26 Jun 2008  |
The main reason Microsoft didn't like it was because it made it incredibly easy to edit game saves, ie. cheating which is a part of XBL's ToS. If Datel made large memory cards without the removable disk, I don't think there would've been an issue. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1755 Joined: 12 May 2009  | Only makes Sony look better imo, with them reportedly reaching out to Mozilla for Firefox on the PS3, as well as being open to 3rd party HDD's and other external memory types. The PS3 is becoming a friendlier prospect to more and more. Hell, Sony doesn't really even need to push PR, MS is doing it for them. |
Infamous Scribbler  Posts: 649 Joined: 29 Oct 2009 |
prison fight with a shank made from your toothbrush. |
Copy Clerk Posts: 107 Joined: 4 Feb 2008   |
That's rich coming from a company that has enjoyed years of making numerous peripherals off several systems without paying any of their owners a dime. And it's only the memory card market on the 360. And I've been using my 4Gb USB stick to play various media without a single problem (couple of TV shows and a movie).
I second this motion (less jumping to conclusions)! |
BANNED  Posts: 3752 Joined: 8 May 2008   |
You have use of the 360 as is. You do not have the right to mod it. If you do they can ban you from their services. Same as if you mod it in any way you void your warranty. It is all in the eula hence why modders are now banned from XBL. Also you are not making money off it. That is why people can make free fan mods and get away with it under fair use. If you try to sell a fan mod then companies can sue the crap out of you. User was banned for: Black Mesa Source still going to be released in 2009?. (Permanent) |
Copy Clerk  Posts: 74 Joined: 3 Oct 2008   | The really funny thing is that they could have handled this in a completely legitimate, "excusable" manner that would have held up just fine in an anti-trust court. They could have simply updated it to USE no more than 512mb on any memory stick present in the system, regardless of its maximum capacity. They could easily chalk that up to compatibility/testing limitations and concerns, while simultaneously making it pointless to buy a Datel memory stick without having to outright block it. I mean, geez, at least be smart about it. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 1609 Joined: 25 Jul 2008 |
We all have the right to mod it. That may exclude one from XBL Gold but due to the cheating aspect but Silver exclusion should only happen if Microsoft is being defrauded of thier digital sales (NOT fair use). Which I don't believe is the case. Though Microsoft has it's way of dealing with modders like having new games only playable on the latest console firmware update, an update that bricks modded consoles... until a cracked mod is made as we see with the software arms race on the hacked PSP platform and new updates from Sony. But this isn't even about modding, this is about about an accessory. I have in fact seen third party accessories for the 360 sold all over the place because they in and of them self are NOT illegal. I mean when in the hell as it EVER been illegal to "make money off of another companies (sic) item"? You mean I can't sell a hands-free mobile-phone cradle for a car unless I get permission and pay a fee to every single car manufacturer? This is a free economy, I can do whatever is possible! The legal limits are ENTIRELY on the host platform to prevent monopolistic practices. Of course this is only hardware, software goes into the area of copyright which is far more rigid. For example, it is my understanding there is code on the Xbox 360 hard-drive to allow it to interface with the 360. The hardware is easy and legal to duplicate and even enhance, but the software is copyrighted up the yah-zoo which is why unless there is some sort of special legal ruling it really is impossible for third party 360 Hard Drives to be sold simply for the software on them that is required. I don't believe the same software limits apply to their Memory cards. Datel are perfectly within their legal rights to sell accessories for the 360 and they don't have to pay a penny to Microsoft. The removable memory doesn't facilitate cheating as a 360 memory->USB adapter will allow the same saves to be edited. But that is only for increasing your gamerscore... which is lame. I see my achievements as personal victories, faking them has to be ultimate fail. Higher gamerscore earns you NOTHING, only bragging rights and is not anti-competitive for online games. See, it's just not like the good-old-days when consoles where mostly offline with no patches or firmware updates, now hardware/firmware modding is a constant struggle between the hackers and the corporations. And there is nothing illegal about hacking a PSP or DS so that you can emulate PC games like Quake, games that you legally own. Fair use, baby! Terms of service are JUST for service. Breaching TOS is NOT ILLEGAL and does NOT void your right of ownership, only voids any responsibility the manufacturer has to provide you service like XBL. However, Microsoft has crossed a line here as they are not just raining on a Hackers party, they are locking out legitimate businesses as this case is entirely about sales to the "good" console owners who are running the latest firmware and obeying the Terms of Service. That IS anti-competitive, even if they were within the law in all the little steps up to that point. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 2055 Joined: 2 Nov 2008  | Whether or not I like or approve of Microsoft's lockout on non-MS memory cards is beside the point; though I will say that I disagree w/ it. However, is it unlawful? No. If the court decides that it is, then I'll just chalk that up on my "Disappointed in Humanity" column next to the nearly empty "Times Common Sense Prevailed." |
Paperboy  Posts: 20 Joined: 23 Sep 2009  | its dissapointing that microsoft is banning the hardware its really anti competitive |
Press Junketeer  Posts: 492 Joined: 11 Feb 2009 | I'm with Microsoft on this all the way. Especially if what Wofiel says about this case is true. But even if they didn't this is fully OK. I hope Microsoft wins the case. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 1585 Joined: 27 Jul 2008    |
Hardly a better solution, even if you were being sarcastic. |
Gone Gonzo  Posts: 3545 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 | Microsoft was founded on the idea that if you create something, you can be the sole vendor of that thing for as long as possible and have a near-perfect monopoly. Now they are just expanding that to cover other electronic devices. What's the big surprise? It's well-known that third-party cards usually suck, but most other game companies at least allow (tolerate) off-brand companies to develop alternatives for the customer. I don't see how keeping a third-party company from making memory cards affects piracy in ANY way (modders or pirates will use hard drives and writable discs instead of memory cards, anyhow), but this absolutely affects M$' ability to squeeze every last dollar out the consumer by forcing them to shop for cards at Microsoft and nowhere else. |
Gone Gonzo Posts: 3545 Joined: 7 Oct 2008 |
Maybe not, but there's been an unspoken agreement for years now that companies like Datel can make accessories for systems they don't own. None of the main video game companies seem to openly endorse this, but up until now I hadn't heard of any of them being strictly against it. I mean, goodness sakes, I've seen 3rd-party memory cards around since the birth of memory cards themselves! It's sort of like if all of a sudden anyone who went a mile over the speed limit or jaywalked got a ticket. It's technically illegal, but people have been doing it for years and it's totally commonplace. Legally they might be in the wrong, but third-party support seems pretty essential (to me) in keeping a system alive. All those useless system decoration options and pointless crap keep shallow people paying attention to the console, and if a company refuses to provide a decent-sized memory card, they should have the decency to allow somebody else to make it and simply charge a small fee. |
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QFT
Either way, this will just be settled and will hardly be a blow to microsoft at all.