Rumor: Microsoft Killed PC/Xbox Cross Platform Play

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Console defense force, Mobilize!

dochmbi:
It's simply a biological fact that you can get beter motor accuracy with your hand than with your least agile finger, the thumb.

This sir is correct. It's not a matter of PC gaming being superior, the mouse is just a more ergonomic and more ideal control mechanism for almost anything.

Cross platform gaming could still work, just not for twitch based games like FPS's. What about Action RPG's, or MMORPG's like DC online is doing.

Not surprised. The average Starcraft player has a 250 actions-per-minute count. Oh, and to those not paying attention, that's about four actions per second. I know the testing was probably done with an FPS title, but still; I'm sure a console player can't push a button 250 times per minute.

I'd love to challenge any console player to go up against me in a given FPS using a controller with auto aim turned off.

I've been gaming for 20 years and I've played so many FPS games it's nearly sickening. I find that, at least for me, the mouse is absolutely unparalleled. Anyone who has played competitive quake/unreal tournament can testify to how hectic it is. It's simply not possible to make movements that precise and that quick with a controller.

Tell me you could do this with a controller and no auto aim:

Mornelithe:
Console defense force, Mobilize!

So, the CDF vs the PC Guardians? I see how this is going down...

Doug:

Mornelithe:
Console defense force, Mobilize!

So, the CDF vs the PC Guardians? I see how this is going down...

I decided the most brief response I could make, would be the least provocative. Being a PC gamer, I already have my own opinion on the matter. But, I couldn't help but take a small jab given this particular subject has been a hot topic for quite awhile.

Mornelithe:

Doug:

Mornelithe:
Console defense force, Mobilize!

So, the CDF vs the PC Guardians? I see how this is going down...

I decided the most brief response I could make, would be the least provocative. Being a PC gamer, I already have my own opinion on the matter. But, I couldn't help but take a small jab given this particular subject has been a hot topic for quite awhile.

I suspect it'll go down like this, only without the handshaking at the end:

Consoles, in my experience, are better with fighting and racing games, as the mouse doesn't really come into play that much in either. But, FPS's seem to work well due to the twitch capabilities of the mouse. RTS's and RPGs work well due to the obscene amount of hotkeys on the keyboard allowing for 250+ actions per minute.

AC10:

Tell me you could do this with a controller and no auto aim:

To be fair, Fatality was once named the best quake player in the world, with I believe a 16 game winning streak. But yes, that would be impossible on console for sure.

Ok, we all know it's easier to use a mouse to put a cursor over your opponent than to use a controller. So, how does that make PC players better? It means they have an advantage over input methods, not skill. If all PC gamers were as skillfull as many seem to be making them out to be they should be as successful using any type of control method, why not test that out?

Take a group of PC only gamers and have them use a regular controller and let the console gamers use a mouse and keyboard-explain what how they work and let them get used to it for a half hour then start a match between them. My theory is that the PC gamers using a controller will be trounced and prove that it isn't skill that they have, but a rediculously easy way to aim.

SlainPwner666:
Consoles, in my experience, are better with fighting and racing games, as the mouse doesn't really come into play that much in either. But, FPS's seem to work well due to the twitch capabilities of the mouse. RTS's and RPGs work well due to the obscene amount of hotkeys on the keyboard allowing for 250+ actions per minute.

AC10:

Tell me you could do this with a controller and no auto aim:
*snip*

To be fair, Fatality was once named the best quake player in the world, with I believe a 16 game winning streak. But yes, that would be impossible on console for sure.

I realize the example is obviously extreme, but I wanted to demonstrate the potential of the mouse :)

RowdyRodimus:
Ok, we all know it's easier to use a mouse to put a cursor over your opponent than to use a controller. So, how does that make PC players better? It means they have an advantage over input methods, not skill. If all PC gamers were as skillfull as many seem to be making them out to be they should be as successful using any type of control method, why not test that out?

Take a group of PC only gamers and have them use a regular controller and let the console gamers use a mouse and keyboard-explain what how they work and let them get used to it for a half hour then start a match between them. My theory is that the PC gamers using a controller will be trounced and prove that it isn't skill that they have, but a rediculously easy way to aim.

This is a completely bogus claim. As with any UI, and a controller is a user interface, every person must go through a familiarization phase. Be it working a stove, opening a door, drinking from a cup or using a controller, every UI has a learning phase.

As an example, someone could be really familiar with driving a car. However, if instead of a steering wheel you put an Xbox 360 controller in the car do you really, really expect them to be able to drive as well? Of course not as they have not familiarized themselves with the UI. They could be the best race car driver in the world, but it wouldn't matter.

Furthermore, the switch from mouse to gamepad is a matter of switching device classifications. I don't know how much education you have in UI's, but the mouse is a clutched positioning device and a joystick is a relative positioning device - they're very different devices and generally, clutched positioning devices are more suited for precision.

Finally, then, all we can conclude is that someone who "has skill in a PC fps" really means they have skill with using a mouse in an FPS. If you did the reverse, take a fantastic console FPS player and put him into a PC game with a mouse and a keyboard, do you really think his "skill level" will help him? No, it won't because such a thing doesn't exist he's good with a controller, not a mouse. Stuff doesn't just mystically carry over like that.

Ironic Pirate:

Yeah, I realize that now, someone else posted such a video.

My experience with PC gaming has been either my horrid attempts or watching my friends, and they always seemed to get stuck on corners more than people did with consoles. I thought that was a common problem, I guess they just weren't very good.

And I've always felt the analog stick was more intuitive. It only took up one digit, and, you know, it's an "analog" for movement.

I was wrong, though.

Don't be so harsh on yourself. I'd agree Analogue stick IS more intuitive but considering how important aiming/looking-around is and how many games depend on a controllable camera position I'd still say a more intuitive mouse-look trumps overall.

I LOEV gaming on PC but I still play all the biggest console shooters. I find I can "feel" being in Killzone 2 or Halo 3, though looking around and aiming still feels as un-natural. It's like I am running around with real fleshy legs, feeling my way around over the rubble and steps, but my upper body is like The Terminator, slowly scanning and over-correcting.

See with an analogue stick for movement, even without haptic-feedback (rumble, which I hate anyway) I can "feel" my way around much better with an analogue stick, especially for first person where I usually can't see how my avatar is interacting with the environment, only how my progress is being impeded.

I really wish I could combine both setups, there are time when analogue movement is best (traversing rough ground, steering of vehicle on 2D plane (like a car) ) and times when analogue aim is best (aiming a sluggish automated tank/artillery gun, pitch of a vehicle in a 3D travel (plane, missile, spaceship) )

Particularly relevant for ID Software's upcoming RAGE, I hope I can easily switch between gamepad and mouse+KB for the alternating driving and on-foot shooting sections.

... I am easily a better shot on First Person shooters of the Console variety then their computer counterparts.

AC10:

RowdyRodimus:
Ok, we all know it's easier to use a mouse to put a cursor over your opponent than to use a controller. So, how does that make PC players better? It means they have an advantage over input methods, not skill. If all PC gamers were as skillfull as many seem to be making them out to be they should be as successful using any type of control method, why not test that out?

Take a group of PC only gamers and have them use a regular controller and let the console gamers use a mouse and keyboard-explain what how they work and let them get used to it for a half hour then start a match between them. My theory is that the PC gamers using a controller will be trounced and prove that it isn't skill that they have, but a rediculously easy way to aim.

This is a completely bogus claim. As with any UI, and a controller is a user interface, every person must go through a familiarization phase. Be it working a stove, opening a door, drinking from a cup or using a controller, every UI has a learning phase.

As an example, someone could be really familiar with driving a car. However, if instead of a steering wheel you put an Xbox 360 controller in the car do you really, really expect them to be able to drive as well? Of course not as they have not familiarized themselves with the UI. They could be the best race car driver in the world, but it wouldn't matter.

Furthermore, the switch from mouse to gamepad is a matter of switching device classifications. I don't know how much education you have in UI's, but the mouse is a clutched positioning device and a joystick is a relative positioning device - they're very different devices and generally, clutched positioning devices are more suited for precision.

Finally, then, all we can conclude is that someone who "has skill in a PC fps" really means they have skill with using a mouse in an FPS. If you did the reverse, take a fantastic console FPS player and put him into a PC game with a mouse and a keyboard, do you really think his "skill level" will help him? No, it won't because such a thing doesn't exist he's good with a controller, not a mouse. Stuff doesn't just mystically carry over like that.

That's what I said (just a little shorter). I was talking about the people that seem to think that because they win a game using a mouse, they are better gamers as a whole than those who use analog stick controllers and that somehow that makes them more skillfull than the console players.

I agree that the mouse/keyboard setup is easier to use for FPS games. It just seems to me that to be really good at one on a console takes more actual gaming skill than it does to be really good at it using the m/k setup because of the inherent flaws with a gamepad.

Besides all this is a theory (that hasn't been tested AFAIKO) coming from someone who has hated every FPS he has ever played (save the original Medal of Honor), so your milage may vary.

Treblaine:

Ironic Pirate:

Yeah, I realize that now, someone else posted such a video.

My experience with PC gaming has been either my horrid attempts or watching my friends, and they always seemed to get stuck on corners more than people did with consoles. I thought that was a common problem, I guess they just weren't very good.

And I've always felt the analog stick was more intuitive. It only took up one digit, and, you know, it's an "analog" for movement.

I was wrong, though.

Don't be so harsh on yourself. I'd agree Analogue stick IS more intuitive but considering how important aiming/looking-around is and how many games depend on a controllable camera position I'd still say a more intuitive mouse-look trumps overall.

I LOEV gaming on PC but I still play all the biggest console shooters. I find I can "feel" being in Killzone 2 or Halo 3, though looking around and aiming still feels as un-natural. It's like I am running around with real fleshy legs, feeling my way around over the rubble and steps, but my upper body is like The Terminator, slowly scanning and over-correcting.

See with an analogue stick for movement, even without haptic-feedback (rumble, which I hate anyway) I can "feel" my way around much better with an analogue stick, especially for first person where I usually can't see how my avatar is interacting with the environment, only how my progress is being impeded.

I really wish I could combine both setups, there are time when analogue movement is best (traversing rough ground, steering of vehicle on 2D plane (like a car) ) and times when analogue aim is best (aiming a sluggish automated tank/artillery gun, pitch of a vehicle in a 3D travel (plane, missile, spaceship) )

Particularly relevant for ID Software's upcoming RAGE, I hope I can easily switch between gamepad and mouse+KB for the alternating driving and on-foot shooting sections.

I'm almost expecting everyone in this thread to suddenly face the camera and say: So that's why we use Dual FragSFX ProTM!

Seriously though, the part I bolded is pretty much what I meant to say, but you said it better.

Ironic Pirate:

I'm almost expecting everyone in this thread to suddenly face the camera and say: So that's why we use Dual FragSFX ProTM!

Seriously though, the part I bolded is pretty much what I meant to say, but you said it better.

Because that isn't a REAL mouse, not a mouse in the sense than PC users are familiar with. These things simply read the mouse input and try to figure out the analogue stick input that would give the same result but they are still under the same fundamental limitations of the analogue input. Plus these are buggy as all hell as no games is made with them in mind.

PS3 support USB mouse, the ideal solution is the GAME DEVELOPERS more universally allow support of plain-old USB-mouse with keyboard or even just use the left-side of the PS3-controller for movement n' stuff.

But virtually no develoeprs support that. It would be AWESOME if Sony did that for all their First Party games. But they don't get any money when you buy a third party USB-mouse, they are probably more likely to encourage support for Move controller.

arc1991:
I'd like this...Xbox and PS3 would work alot easier.

but i can dream

err no it wouldn't its a programming nightmare

So... based on the effects of one set of tests, a potential sales technique that could be used to bolster sales and longevity of both PC and X-Box games... was outrightly discarded? I'm starting to wonder if Microsoft is trying to come in third place in the console race...

That may be applicable to first person shooters but in Racing games it almost seems to be the opposite. People on Xbox and Logitech controllers rule the leaderboards in alot of racing games. So its by no means a complete test.

Meh each have there own advantage on different types of game that advantage of pc is that can plug a 360 control straight in and it works for nearly any game I want (never fps mouse head shots please).

Onyx Oblivion:
Here's why:

The major push was that Shadowrun game mentioned in the article.

The game it was linked heavily to failed, therefore, cut yer losses and run.

And I killed dozen of PC gamers in my few weeks with Shadowrun. It's an advantage, but not an insurmountably massive one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_%282007_video_game%29
please read

Ironic Pirate:
But in fast paced games, console gamers would have a mobility advantage, as WASD isn't all that great for movement...

Which is faster, a flicking a light switch or turning the knob on a dimmer? I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it takes a noticeably longer amount of time to tilt a stick than it does to tap a key.

Oh, if you want to see what kind of disadvantage a keyboard has in only being able to pick from four directions, you should come watch me play Zombie Mod on CSS.

Elementlmage:

Ironic Pirate:
But in fast paced games, console gamers would have a mobility advantage, as WASD isn't all that great for movement...

Which is faster, a flicking a light switch or turning the knob on a dimmer? I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it takes a noticeably longer amount of time to tilt a stick than it does to tap a key.

Oh, if you want to see what kind of disadvantage a keyboard has in only being able to pick from four directions, you should come watch me play Zombie Mod on CSS.

What I meant to say was that it was more intuitive and only took one finger, and also I don't have much experience with PC games, so I wouldn't know. When I watch my friends play they all suck and get stuck on corners, so I thought this was common.

Jesus, I should edit my first post, shouldn't I? This is like the fifth time...

lol PC gamers are like "nooo we'd win too easily" but honestly the real competitive play for PCs are in the RTS games
I mean, my PC gaming friends keep talking about some game called StarCraft 2? apparently it's a big deal? lol =)

aside from the programming nightmare, this woulda been nice tho. lotsa my friends who play games like Borderlands and MW2 on PC wish they could play with others who play it on the 360 (sadface...)

Ironic Pirate:

Elementlmage:

Ironic Pirate:
But in fast paced games, console gamers would have a mobility advantage, as WASD isn't all that great for movement...

Which is faster, a flicking a light switch or turning the knob on a dimmer? I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it takes a noticeably longer amount of time to tilt a stick than it does to tap a key.

Oh, if you want to see what kind of disadvantage a keyboard has in only being able to pick from four directions, you should come watch me play Zombie Mod on CSS.

What I meant to say was that it was more intuitive and only took one finger, and also I don't have much experience with PC games, so I wouldn't know. When I watch my friends play they all suck and get stuck on corners, so I thought this was common.

Jesus, I should edit my first post, shouldn't I? This is like the fifth time...

Remeber some pc gamers have been playing fps with a mouse and keyboard for 17 years straight

I have

jamesworkshop:

Ironic Pirate:

Elementlmage:

Ironic Pirate:
But in fast paced games, console gamers would have a mobility advantage, as WASD isn't all that great for movement...

Which is faster, a flicking a light switch or turning the knob on a dimmer? I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it takes a noticeably longer amount of time to tilt a stick than it does to tap a key.

Oh, if you want to see what kind of disadvantage a keyboard has in only being able to pick from four directions, you should come watch me play Zombie Mod on CSS.

What I meant to say was that it was more intuitive and only took one finger, and also I don't have much experience with PC games, so I wouldn't know. When I watch my friends play they all suck and get stuck on corners, so I thought this was common.

Jesus, I should edit my first post, shouldn't I? This is like the fifth time...

Remeber some pc gamers have been playing fps with a mouse and keyboard for 17 years straight

I have

I know, the only people I had ever seen were my friends, and I thought they were good.

So I'm sorry if I offended you.

Doug:

Mornelithe:

Doug:

Mornelithe:
Console defense force, Mobilize!

So, the CDF vs the PC Guardians? I see how this is going down...

I decided the most brief response I could make, would be the least provocative. Being a PC gamer, I already have my own opinion on the matter. But, I couldn't help but take a small jab given this particular subject has been a hot topic for quite awhile.

I suspect it'll go down like this, only without the handshaking at the end:

Awesome, never seen that before.

I'm betting they wouldn't be using nerf weaponry either.

Ironic Pirate:

jamesworkshop:

Ironic Pirate:

Elementlmage:

Ironic Pirate:
But in fast paced games, console gamers would have a mobility advantage, as WASD isn't all that great for movement...

Which is faster, a flicking a light switch or turning the knob on a dimmer? I realize it's a bit of an exaggeration, but it takes a noticeably longer amount of time to tilt a stick than it does to tap a key.

Oh, if you want to see what kind of disadvantage a keyboard has in only being able to pick from four directions, you should come watch me play Zombie Mod on CSS.

What I meant to say was that it was more intuitive and only took one finger, and also I don't have much experience with PC games, so I wouldn't know. When I watch my friends play they all suck and get stuck on corners, so I thought this was common.

Jesus, I should edit my first post, shouldn't I? This is like the fifth time...

Remeber some pc gamers have been playing fps with a mouse and keyboard for 17 years straight

I have

I know, the only people I had ever seen were my friends, and I thought they were good.

So I'm sorry if I offended you.

Let the elitism COMMENCE!

Lol j/k

But in all seriousness, there are PC gamers and then there are PC Gamers. I've held a mouse in my hand since the age of 3, so there is a little bit of a proficiency issue. But yeah, I can run up a 6 inch wide strip of curving stairway railing while being chased by zombies without losing my stride. I think I have been playing too many video games xD!!!

That is utter bullshit i agree that both sides have there advantages over each other but me and my clan played shadowrun for a while and neither pc or 360 gamers had the edge.The real thing that i think that killed it was when you had pc gamers and 360 gamers on the same server the lag was crazy.

Would love to see it get tried in the future but when the technology worked properly.

Also could you really see Microsoft droppping consoles to support the mess that is games for windows.

tehroc:

Matter of fact if controller were not inherently inferior there wouldn't be double tapping snap aiming.

Other genres do favor the analog controller though, anything involving driving or flying.

What do you mean by "double tapping snap aiming"? auto aim?

Spygon:
That is utter bullshit i agree that both sides have there advantages over each other but me and my clan played shadowrun for a while and neither pc or 360 gamers had the edge.The real thing that i think that killed it was when you had pc gamers and 360 gamers on the same server the lag was crazy.

Would love to see it get tried in the future but when the technology worked properly.

Also could you really see Microsoft droppping consoles to support the mess that is games for windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_%282007_video_game%29
Please read about the game differences they put into to level the playing field for the 360.

murphy7801:

Spygon:
That is utter bullshit i agree that both sides have there advantages over each other but me and my clan played shadowrun for a while and neither pc or 360 gamers had the edge.The real thing that i think that killed it was when you had pc gamers and 360 gamers on the same server the lag was crazy.

Would love to see it get tried in the future but when the technology worked properly.

Also could you really see Microsoft droppping consoles to support the mess that is games for windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_%282007_video_game%29
Please read about the game differences they put into to level the playing field for the 360.

I am now taking bets on how many more times you will have to point that out before people get it xD

Elementlmage:

murphy7801:

Spygon:
That is utter bullshit i agree that both sides have there advantages over each other but me and my clan played shadowrun for a while and neither pc or 360 gamers had the edge.The real thing that i think that killed it was when you had pc gamers and 360 gamers on the same server the lag was crazy.

Would love to see it get tried in the future but when the technology worked properly.

Also could you really see Microsoft droppping consoles to support the mess that is games for windows.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadowrun_%282007_video_game%29
Please read about the game differences they put into to level the playing field for the 360.

I am now taking bets on how many more times you will have to point that out before people get it xD

It gets infuriating, if want to play an unmodified version head to head on lan server that would be great and I would happily come along.

Phoenixlight:

tehroc:

Matter of fact if controller were not inherently inferior there wouldn't be double tapping snap aiming.

Other genres do favor the analog controller though, anything involving driving or flying.

What do you mean by "double tapping snap aiming"? auto aim?

Double tapping the aim button to snap it in place on the target in modern console games like MW2 or BFBC2.

Wait, you mean Microsoft, who pay developers to make exclusive content for the Xbox and off of PCs, wants to force people to buy Xbox's instead of Dells or HPs?! I'm stunned!!

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