mjc0961:
1985? Oh good, so I wasn't even alive yet. Now I don't feel bad about having never heard of it before.

Also, those students seem a bit silly. Sure, I'd probably try to play first without the manual too, but once I was confused as all hell, I'd go back to the manual and read it instead of just giving up.

What this guy said. If I get stuck I go back and read the manual or replay the tutorial. Hell sometimes I just go back and do that to see if I'm missing out on something, can't tell you how many times i've played a game only to find half-way through there was a move or button that made things a 100X easier.

Can't belive how lazy these kids are, giving up on a game without leaning how to play it first? Pssh they're not gamers, just lazy assholes looking for a easy A.

In other words, in-game tutorials and constant references to "Press X to do Y" have made people complacent.

It just shows that too few people of today knows the very good acronym: RtfM.

Everything has (or at least should have) a manual and in order to use it correctly you have to read said manual. I would never turn a new electronic item on without reading the manual (whether it be before or during) and neither would I play a game (any kind of game) without reading the manual/rules.

Mariena:
So, what was the conclusion? What was the point? That games back in the day weren't as accessible to players? That people were more intelligent? More patient? That games were more limited and thus required documentation rather than in-game tutorials?

Or that Ultima IV doesn't live up to todays standards?

it means manuals and games have changed their roles. manuals are just useless paper now but back then it was a REQUIREMENT. that and the dumbing down of the media is allowing the idiots into the media. gaming is becoming TV and movies.

I love reading the manuelo, im disappointed when there isnt onbe or just a bisic controll scheme one.

Bah, kids these days...

Me, I still go back and read manuals for fun. It's just.. nice. I mean some of the manuals are absolutely awesome. Outpost 2 had all those little short stories for every last unit and building in the game, and Homeworld had all that lore about the Kadeshi setting..

Admittedly, modern game manuals are brief, boring, and spoiler-ridden at times.. is the manual a dying art?

I guess this is why they need to Dumb down Dragon Age 2. The old school first one was just too much for them.

sooperman:
Honestly, I don't think that kids not reading the manual is an excuse for the game being hard to get into. If you can't explain yourself in-game, then how well can you possible explain the rules in the manual? And if you simply feel like not explaining how to play inside of the game, you are being lazy.

Having a manual is fine, requiring a manual is bullshit. What if you lost it? The game would have been nigh unplayable at the time, right?

Really? no games required a manual unless it was the copy protection.
Even Ultima 4 can be fairly easily played by taking your time and seeing what happens, a manual let you get there quicker and allowed you learn a very complex game far faster and better than a tutorial.
However even something a seemingly simple as Baldurs gate had a massive manual detailing how the ad&d system had been butchered to fit the game, what actions would definitely get you in trouble and a fair chunk of background information. These days you want to minmax your RPG character you get on a forum or look for a FAQ back then you took half an hour out of your life to actually read the manual and figure it out yourself.

And as for losing the manual, ever heard the phrase read, listen, repeat? By reading about something in detail, seeing it in game and then applying it freely you actually learn the game, once played never forgotten. With a modern game you probably don't bother to remember how to play as it has a tutorial, you can always just replay it later; right? Either that or it just uses exactly the same controls and in game actions as every other game in it's genre. anyway.

Ruairi iliffe:
Still have my old Elite 2: Frontier Manual laying about, now that is a manual.

Now there's a thought; I might read the fiction half of that manual tomorrow.

I was born in 1992, have played all the old classics including Ultima IV and love my manuals... does that make me special?

burntheartist:

Booze Zombie:
We're too used to good graphics and intuitive interfaces, I guess?

There's nothing intuitive about the unskippable tutorials most games have now. Intuitive was MegaMan and even that seems too hard to grasp.

The only "hard to" part about Megaman I remember was having to guess who was weak against what, and what order to take the bosses on in. That and it's a genuinely difficult platformer. Not Ninja Gaiden hard, but hard enough to have to use several continues on a first playthrough. A thing about modern games is the principle that dying a lot=/=fun so the default difficulty is made so that a beginner will die some but a seasoned player can breeze through it. That's what hard modes are for.

Andtutorials truly are there because we're too lazy to read the manual. OR that we got the game at Gamestop without the manual. OR that reading isn't enough and you want to practice first. OR because learning how to play flows into the narrative and the character as well is just learning how to do these things.

One thing I hate about how you used to need the manual was, for example, Metal Gear. There are parts where you either can't beat the game or have to spend an hour guessing a radio code because it's in the manual and the game gives no hints itself. Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence comes with the first 2 metal gear games, but no manual. For a while Kojima's site had a FAQ that helped you with this, but they took it down. I can't find a PDF of the manual on the internet, and I don't want to stoop to using a straight-up guide. I am screwed. All because I can't find out this stuff in-game.

Therumancer:
Actually, I think this kind of shows why you can't have a class on computer games. Or, that if your going to have one, why you need to put some strict standards on who can take it. This is not the first thing I've read on this class, and it seems more like a sociological experiment in seeing how current people react to older games in practice, than anything really educational.

I think the "OMG, they expected you to read the instructions?" bit is sort of indicative of the problem of what has happened with gaming becoming mainstream. Most of these guys probably would never have been able to get a Commodore 64 or Apple 2 running well enough to be able to game regularly.

Ultima 4 is a very deep game, and involved a lot of elements that I actually miss in games today. I regularly rage about how RPGs in paticular are constantly being dumbed down.

But then again, as a lot of people besides me have pointed out, this is what happens when anything gets marketed based on the lowest human denominator. The market just can't handle a game that can't be adequetly explained by a 15 minute tutorial, or any real exploration or ambigious goals.

Ultima, especially Ultima IV, and Might And Magic were both kind of cool to the gamers of the time (who were also frequently pnp RPG gamers) because half the fun was exploring, and "adventuring" in the truest sense, and gradually figuring out what the exact objective was and how to go about it. Although admittedlt both games gave a good hint hin the title ("Quest Of The Avatar", and "Secret Of The Inner Sanctum")

If I may expand on what you've already said, I think it's even more indicative of the kind of people in this class. To me, it seems like a lot of people may have picked this course for the filler mark, thinking it might be a an easy course with an easy grade. These don't seem the kind of people who would've even bothered to pick up the manual if he had given them a hard copy as opposed to the digital one. I for one am extremely disappointed with manuals nowadays, I used to quite enjoy reading through the manuals for my games. I think the last decent manual I've read was the one for Cryostasis, as it explained some of the backstory, and was also quite visually appealing (to myself, anyways).

I remember reading the SimEarth manual. By that time, it was already a joke that people didn't read the manuals anymore. That was only five years after Ultima IV. To think that manuals are considered unnecessary isn't surprising, though you'd think it being given to them might have been a clue.

Still, it's weird to think reading the instructions would illicit a "wow."

RTFM, people. RTFM.

In a World with No imagination...
10 children...
who don't know how to press a simple START button...
are going to face...
THE ULITIMATE NIGHTMARE...

anyway, its not a big surprise to me, since kids these days are only up to the highest graphics and the STRICTLY linear gameplay that tells them EXACTLY what to do and how to do it.

Soviet Heavy:
I guess this is why they need to Dumb down Dragon Age 2. The old school first one was just too much for them.

I don't see why that's a problem. The game was pretty terrible. One of only a few titles I haven't bothered to at least attempt to finish. It may have been "old school," but it certainly wasn't good. Let the casuals have their dumbed down and likely ALSO awful sequel.

Bad runescape, I though runescape was bad
Silly catface/ children, Although i always read the mannual, even if I dont tneed to.

Showing my age here, but i still read game manuals before playing. They tend to be dissapointingly thin these days however.

theshadavid:
I think this is true with a lot of old games. I downloaded Final Fantasy 7 over PSN and I could not get into it. It's not even very obscure like Ultima IV. I'm 16 I feel a little shafted not getting being able to play some of these awesome old games (I just can't get a grasp on Mega Man).

Unlucky, man... I can play almost anything from the past century - I just finished playing a level on Starcraft, own the original Ocarina of Time, and ran through Half-Life 1 on the summer holidays.

15, by the way.

If you give gamers the objective "to explore" they immeadiately ask "to find what?".

Isn't the "not knowing" the fun of exploring? I love games that violently dump you in a world and say "tough shit". Makes for a much better experience in my opinion. Not only will you gradually figure out what's going on (so not knowing what to do and figuring out becomes the driving force of you playing) as a player which is reflected through your avatar in game, but you also have no idea what's in store for you. You write the game's story yourself. It gives an immense feeling of satisfaction if you triumph in these harsh settings.

Having a game hold your hand is good for immediate satisfaction, but just like so many other immediate feelings, it fades and you get bored. When you invest the time and chellenge yourself with a game over many hours, the rewards will be much sweeter and the experience will feel much more personal and memorable.

Zachary Amaranth:

Soviet Heavy:
I guess this is why they need to Dumb down Dragon Age 2. The old school first one was just too much for them.

I don't see why that's a problem. The game was pretty terrible. One of only a few titles I haven't bothered to at least attempt to finish. It may have been "old school," but it certainly wasn't good. Let the casuals have their dumbed down and likely ALSO awful sequel.

I hope thats your opinion, otherwise I'd take issue with it. As it is, it is a great treat for fans of Baldurs Gate veterans.

"Oh noes these students who probably barely existed (if at all) when Ultima VI was made don't get it, woe is me and woe is them"

I'll tell you why they can't 'grasp' Ultima 4, game design has gotten so much better that it doesn't need to be complicated and manuals aren't needed as much to make an epic story or an enjoyable game.

Hell RPGS were barely conceived when that shit was about, of course the thing is going to be dense and unplayable.

Reading is for squares

Todays gamers and most of the public altogether are thick. Plain and bloody simple. Mostly Everyone expects everything to be explained to them without figuring it out for themselves. The Ultima games in my experience drops gives you a brief story and expects you to figure things out. While this can be irritating to some but I honestly prefer this unlike the students in the study.

Nieroshai:
One thing I hate about how you used to need the manual was, for example, Metal Gear. There are parts where you either can't beat the game or have to spend an hour guessing a radio code because it's in the manual and the game gives no hints itself. Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence comes with the first 2 metal gear games, but no manual. For a while Kojima's site had a FAQ that helped you with this, but they took it down. I can't find a PDF of the manual on the internet, and I don't want to stoop to using a straight-up guide. I am screwed. All because I can't find out this stuff in-game.

Wait...are there multiple parts in MGS where you need the manual? I thought there was only one spot when you can look at the back of the box to tell you a simple phone code.

That's how I remember it atleast, played the original; way back when it came out though. Also I'm pretty sure you get hints. MGS always gives you hints when you call the right people.

"Read? Who cares about reading when I can pop your head across the map with a pistol, wait this isn't a shooter? Its an RPG?! What is this strange thing you have put into my hands and why can't I teabag that guy" - This is probably what most of them was thinking

I don't like reading manuals or FAQs because I like to rely on my own intelligence and intuition, I do miss the puzzle part of games a lot though, I didn't get to play games in the 80s era but from what I know about N64 gaming to current gen gaming is I had to think more and I was younger then.

Rubbish. All of my younger friends play Ultima's I to VII. I introduced them to the series, because my tastes are so awesomely refined.
/sarcasm

Doesn't surprise me :-/

I remember that I had to work my little brain to figure out games like these. But it most definitely had its rewards!

Today's 'kids entertainment' is too... 'dumb' IMO. Not so much in video games, but still...

Brotherofwill:

Isn't the "not knowing" the fun of exploring? I love games that violently dump you in a world and say "tough shit". Makes for a much better experience in my opinion.

YES. I vividly recall the point in Ultima 6 when I remembered that there was a plot, and realized that I was maybe halfway along it, after bumbling around for weeks, exploring Britannia and figuring out all the fun stuff I could do there. Not to mention the joys of referring to the cloth map and translating the Britannian runes. I think the closest thing we have these days is Elder Scrolls and Gothic.

Brotherofwill:

Wait...are there multiple parts in MGS where you need the manual? I thought there was only one spot when you can look at the back of the box to tell you a simple phone code.

Hello again. That's Metal Gear they were talking about. Not Metal Gear Solid. Easy mistake.

Hold on.

Teaching videogame history?

WHERE??

sooperman:
Honestly, I don't think that kids not reading the manual is an excuse for the game being hard to get into. If you can't explain yourself in-game, then how well can you possible explain the rules in the manual? And if you simply feel like not explaining how to play inside of the game, you are being lazy.

Having a manual is fine, requiring a manual is bullshit. What if you lost it? The game would have been nigh unplayable at the time, right?

Slow down, cowboy. Stop and read the part about the game being from 1985. Whether or not you were around or playing games back then, you can hopefully at least somewhat appreciate the incredibly limited resources they had to work with at the time. I'm not sure exactly which Apple II model the game was designed for or what requirements it had off the top of my head, but these were 8-bit computers, with a whole 1 MHz CPU. By 1985, it was probably reasonable to expect people would have at least 64 kilobytes of RAM, and floppy disks generally could fit something like 140 kB per side.

With that in mind, where exactly are they going to fit a modern tutorial and all the backstory and stuff inside the game itself, like we're all used to these days? That's a small enough amount of disk space and memory that you have to worry about how much text you're using, which is completely unheard of for pretty much any general-purpose computer in at least the past decade. They did what they could with what they had available.

Soviet Heavy:
I hope thats your opinion, otherwise I'd take issue with it. As it is, it is a great treat for fans of Baldurs Gate veterans.

LOL. What else would it be but opinion? I shouldn't have to state "IMO" After calling a game terrible.

The only "treat" I got was quitting after I got bored with it. I don't remember that happening with Baldur's Gate. Weird. It's like I don't like something that's retro based solely on it being retro.

The only reason I have even heard of the series is thanks to Spoony(DAMN YOU GRASS!!!). I have not tried Ultima, but I have played a couple of other old school RPGs and I was mildly entertained.

Brotherofwill:

Nieroshai:
One thing I hate about how you used to need the manual was, for example, Metal Gear. There are parts where you either can't beat the game or have to spend an hour guessing a radio code because it's in the manual and the game gives no hints itself. Metal Gear Solid 3 Subsistence comes with the first 2 metal gear games, but no manual. For a while Kojima's site had a FAQ that helped you with this, but they took it down. I can't find a PDF of the manual on the internet, and I don't want to stoop to using a straight-up guide. I am screwed. All because I can't find out this stuff in-game.

Wait...are there multiple parts in MGS where you need the manual? I thought there was only one spot when you can look at the back of the box to tell you a simple phone code.

That's how I remember it atleast, played the original; way back when it came out though. Also I'm pretty sure you get hints. MGS always gives you hints when you call the right people.

If he's talking about the original Metal Gear games (I have no idea what's included with Subsistence, never having played it...ok, I looked it up, and yes, it is the old ones), we're talking about stuff from the 80s. There was Metal Gear before MGS, although it's barely recognizable in some ways, especially the wacky US NES version.

Edit: And I would've gotten away with it if it weren't for those meddlesome ninjas...