BlizzCon 2010: Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work

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BlizzCon 2010: Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work

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Is Cataclysm a lazy cop-out for Blizzard? Not on your life, says the developer.

When Blizzard first announced Cataclysm - the third expansion to its wildly successful MMORPG World of Warcraft - at last year's BlizzCon, fan reaction was somewhat mixed at times. Some accused Blizzard of taking the cop-out route: How could an expansion that only added five new levels and that largely focused on the old, already-existing world be anything but lazy? Clearly, they argued, the developer was just phoning it in for the third time around.

When asked what he thought about the "cop-out" suggestion, Rob Pardo - Blizzard's executive vice president of game design - just laughed. "It's way more work! Calling it a cop-out is just funny to me," Pardo told The Escapist at BlizzCon 2010. "We've been redoing the entire world on top of making new level-up content [from level 80 to level 85] ... Cataclysm has probably been two whole expansion packs full of work for us so far!"

Part of that, Pardo admitted, was due to Blizzard's notoriously perfectionist nature messing up its initial plans. "[We] have [our] plans, but nothing is ever good enough when you start looking at it. It ends up being way more work than we ever intended ... our dates slipped internally," he said - Blizzard may be barely squeaking into the holiday season with Cataclysm's December 7th launch, but the studio would probably have liked a little more wiggle room than it has now.

Despite the schedule slippage, though, Pardo thinks that Cataclysm is perfectly poised to bring new players into the WoW fold as a "reboot and clean-up" of the now six-year-old MMO. "We try to serve all of our different player groups ... in Cataclysm, with what we've learned with quest content and design, with phasing ... it's our best content, at our highest levels. [With Wrath of the Lich King], the game was getting too complicated. We've done a lot to clean it up."

With the most senior members of Blizzard's WoW team now nearing ten years' time on the MMORPG, how was their experience trickling down to Blizzard's other, not-quite-so-Massive titles? "All of our games influence each other in ways," said Pardo. "We learn from each others' mistakes and successes. I know that for boss encounters in Diablo III, [the D3 developers] talked to the WoW team that does boss fights - just on some general concepts, not anything specific."

The designers may offer each other advice and counsel, said Pardo, but at the end of the day Blizzard's different development teams all know they're making different games. "They're both fantasy games, yeah, but one is more traditional 'Tolkienian' fantasy while the other is dark Gothic fantasy. It's gameplay, too - Diablo is way more fast-paced, there's so much more action in the pacing. It's the whole Nethack and Rogue randomization, the mature-rated violence and colors."

Therein lies the difference between, say, a sexy demon-hunting fantasy Batman and a flying sparkle-pony.

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I feel the bad reactions to cataclysm were the equivalent of 13 year old halo fans

It's just whining without real reason

Another interessting example of empty language-use in gaming publicity.
What I mean by that?

Sure they can say that it was more work for them. I believe that, but to a customer, who is the adressant of such a statement, that is actually irrelevent, because he won't see or judge the amout of work that has gone into the product directly. What we will ultimatly see might be not worth any effort, to many players. Like moving all low-level instance-quests to the instance hubs. That must have been a lot of work for the devs, restructuring almost all major levle 60 quest-lines. But most players won't notice that work, because they have never known how things used to be. All they will see are some new quests, at best and some minor restructuring at worst.

Yet we are presented with superlatives and comperatives in this message, suggesting that everything will be bigger and better in the future. I can't thing of any other industry that uses these tropes as often as the games industry.

I never really believed that Cataclysm was a cop out. A lot of people may claim that changing the old world was simple somehow but changing everything up, bug testing it, altering all of the old quests. That isn't slacking off. I don't envy the people at Blizzard for having to do all that.

It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

XinfiniteX:
It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

Not to mention they are re-working most of the other areas for lower level players, it adds up to a big change and not just a lazy "Add a few levels and stuff". I think it's a pretty ballsy update from Blizzard considering they could have just added a new small island for 80-85 content and had less bitching about it.

While I never really thought it was much of a "cop-out", saying it has as much work as 2 expansion packs sounds like exagerration to me.

xDHxD148L0:
While I never really thought it was much of a "cop-out", saying it has as much work as 2 expansion packs sounds like exagerration to me.

Feels like 2 expansions, we got a complete class overhaul already(Patch 4.0), new content(80-85) and refreshed old content(1-60).

Considering how big the old worlds are as well...

I don't get the big whining over "its just 5 levels, thats half an expansion!" its just a number really. Plus the only convincing arguement that you could make about the detriment of 5 levels is reduced talent points, but those 5 give 1 point each while the rest of the content is 1 point per 2 levels. Really, this only helps people who don't want to grind out the starting 81 zones because they could realistically move on to the 83 stuff, whereas if it were 10 levels it would be 82 to 86, which would be infeasible

I wish World of Warcraft would just go away.

It's a great game for what it is -- I don't like it, however -- and it is doing exactly what it's supposed to. I just wish some new ideas could surface from under the behemoth and have time to rise.

Spencer Petersen:
I don't get the big whining over "its just 5 levels, thats half an expansion!" its just a number really. Plus the only convincing arguement that you could make about the detriment of 5 levels is reduced talent points, but those 5 give 1 point each while the rest of the content is 1 point per 2 levels. Really, this only helps people who don't want to grind out the starting 81 zones because they could realistically move on to the 83 stuff, whereas if it were 10 levels it would be 82 to 86, which would be infeasible

It could easily be double the exp requirements in Wrath content and still using Wrath Exp from quests.

1.5mil, 20k exp from quests - Wrath
3mil, 20k exp from quests - Cata

Secretly 10 levels disguised as 5.

"Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work"

Sounds like they're priming customers for a $60 price tag

Nurb:
"Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work"

Sounds like they're priming customers for a $60 price tag

Seeing how you can purchase it for $40 already...

xDHxD148L0:
While I never really thought it was much of a "cop-out", saying it has as much work as 2 expansion packs sounds like exagerration to me.

One example would probably just be the quests. They added about 3000 new quests. Wrath of the Lich King had about 1000 quests, and to get all of the big "Loremaster" achievements you need to complete about 2700 quests.

And when they talk about a revamped old world, they don't just mean a few tweaks here and there. You could go back with a new character through old zones you've done before and it will be a wholly new experience.

Spencer Petersen:
Really, this only helps people who don't want to grind out the starting 81 zones because they could realistically move on to the 83 stuff, whereas if it were 10 levels it would be 82 to 86, which would be infeasible

Actually, the difference in power in those few levels really shines through. A level 81 in an 83 zone will get clobbered, especially without level appropriate gear (the stat jumps are quite noticeable). In fact, I'm pretty sure you won't even be able to get to the next zone until you've either hit 82/83, or have completed the quest-chains in Hyjal or Vash'jir.

Vaccine:

Spencer Petersen:
I don't get the big whining over "its just 5 levels, thats half an expansion!" its just a number really. Plus the only convincing arguement that you could make about the detriment of 5 levels is reduced talent points, but those 5 give 1 point each while the rest of the content is 1 point per 2 levels. Really, this only helps people who don't want to grind out the starting 81 zones because they could realistically move on to the 83 stuff, whereas if it were 10 levels it would be 82 to 86, which would be infeasible

It could easily be double the exp requirements in Wrath content and still using Wrath Exp from quests.

1.5mil, 20k exp from quests - Wrath
3mil, 20k exp from quests - Cata

Secretly 10 levels disguised as 5.

From what I remember, 84-85 is about 7 million or so xp at 50k per quest. Roughly.

Stevepinto3:

Spencer Petersen:
Really, this only helps people who don't want to grind out the starting 81 zones because they could realistically move on to the 83 stuff, whereas if it were 10 levels it would be 82 to 86, which would be infeasible

Actually, the difference in power in those few levels really shines through. A level 81 in an 83 zone will get clobbered, especially without level appropriate gear (the stat jumps are quite noticeable). In fact, I'm pretty sure you won't even be able to get to the next zone until you've either hit 82/83, or have completed the quest-chains in Hyjal or Vash'jir.

It's true that you'll get murdered if you jump starting zones, due to the massive Stamina buffs, but because of how high combat ratings are right now, you're going to see your DPS drop every time you level. You're basically going to see your crit, hit, and haste % drop to below what they were when you first hit 80.

ok im cheap i guess... first i brought wow classic, then payed again for burning crusade, then the lich king now this... all the while paying each month to play... seems expensive to me. look at eve, you dont pay for expansions as its part of your monthly sub fee. just sayin... blizzard are milking its customers and fan base because they know these ppl are addicted. kinda like junkies...

but well... yeah... keep on grinding.

Exterminas:
Another interessting example of empty language-use in gaming publicity.
What I mean by that?

Sure they can say that it was more work for them. I believe that, but to a customer, who is the adressant of such a statement, that is actually irrelevent, because he won't see or judge the amout of work that has gone into the product directly. What we will ultimatly see might be not worth any effort, to many players. Like moving all low-level instance-quests to the instance hubs. That must have been a lot of work for the devs, restructuring almost all major levle 60 quest-lines. But most players won't notice that work, because they have never known how things used to be. All they will see are some new quests, at best and some minor restructuring at worst.

Yet we are presented with superlatives and comperatives in this message, suggesting that everything will be bigger and better in the future. I can't thing of any other industry that uses these tropes as often as the games industry.

You'd be surprised at how much minor tweaking can do for the game. The player won't actively see this unless they are actively looking for it, but that's the point; to provide a more streamlined, fun and engrossing experience. You can't structure a game entirely around big moments, especially in something like WoW; but by making significant improvements to the smaller moments leading up to them, you can significantly increase how much impact they have, as well as how much drive the player has to both work up to them and continue playing after.

Exterminas:
Sure they can say that it was more work for them. I believe that, but to a customer, who is the adressant of such a statement, that is actually irrelevent, because he won't see or judge the amout of work that has gone into the product directly. What we will ultimatly see might be not worth any effort, to many players. Like moving all low-level instance-quests to the instance hubs. That must have been a lot of work for the devs, restructuring almost all major levle 60 quest-lines. But most players won't notice that work, because they have never known how things used to be. All they will see are some new quests, at best and some minor restructuring at worst.

You have a point, it's just inapplicable here. The "It was a lot of work!" argument was indeed bullshit when fanatics used it to defend 3.0's Naxx, and you'd be right to call them out here, since they spent months of work remaking a dungeon so that it's exactly the same, but (a lot) easier. It was a waste of effort because their aim was on making the dungeon exactly the same experience.

In Cata, they're trying to make a whole new experience because players are bored of the old world, which consists almost entirely of primitive relics that they're dying to change. I'm willing to give them the benefit of a doubt before applying the same argument.

Of course, they shoulda said "2 expansions worth of content" since in the end nobody gives a shit how hard they worked if it winds up sucking. Them working hard doesn't hurt the game, though.

fKd:
ok im cheap i guess... first i brought wow classic, then payed again for burning crusade, then the lich king now this... all the while paying each month to play... seems expensive to me. look at eve, you dont pay for expansions as its part of your monthly sub fee. just sayin... blizzard are milking its customers and fan base because they know these ppl are addicted. kinda like junkies...

but well... yeah... keep on grinding.

EVE's expansions are more like WoW's major patches though.

It's also apples and oranges, because EVE is focused so heavily on player interaction where WoW is based around developer content. EVE "expansions" just change the ways you interact with other players. WoW patches and expansions add massive amounts of content to be consumed.

I don't think Blizzard is capable of being cheap. :V

XinfiniteX:
It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

What we aren't paying for alone is expansion in itself. One thing I loved to do in WoW was explore, and just when I have seen about everything in the world, (I think I've missed a couple nooks and crannies)it gets remade for new exploration. I won't have to bother getting the expansion for a couple months. Well, I still need to get WotLK.
Lots to do, and lots more that has been done. This is gonna be great.

Actually, the difference in power in those few levels really shines through. A level 81 in an 83 zone will get clobbered, especially without level appropriate gear (the stat jumps are quite noticeable). In fact, I'm pretty sure you won't even be able to get to the next zone until you've either hit 82/83, or have completed the quest-chains in Hyjal or Vash'jir.

Yeah the difference in damage and health will be like 82 to 86, but the other things like hit, crit, avoidance and such will be much more favorable because they depend on the level difference. It helps a little bit if your not enjoying a zone and want to move on to the next early.

Maraveno:
I feel the bad reactions to cataclysm were the equivalent of 13 year old halo fans

It's just whining without real reason

Well, yes and no.

One thing you have to understand was that Warcraft had a sort of storyline to it that has been going on for a long time. "World Of Warcraft" was build up around the events of "Warcraft 3" and the entire plot driving the game has revolved around Arthas. With the end of "Lich King" Arthas is no more, and that should be that. Logically that should be the end of the story, and it's time for everyone to ride off into the sunset so to speak.

The problem of course being that WoW is a business, and since there are a lot of players, Blizzard wants to make more money. Forget the integrity of the storyline, or even common sense, they can't decide to end things gracefully when there is more money to be made!

Cataclysm is pretty much an undisguised money grab. They are redoing large portions of the game because they have pretty much developed everything of note. There are no real threats left in Azaroth so they pretty much need to pull one out of their keister and somehow try
and make it more epic than the events they spent years leading up to.

For a lot of the people complaining I think it comes down to the simple fact that they want to be there for the end of the story so to speak, and with that completed rather than getting on with their new MMO project and closing WoW down or whatever (which I guess few people should have ever really expected) they are instead producing what amounts to a poorly conceived sequel.

It's sort of like all the stuff various owners of the Dungeons And Dragons liscence have done to campaign worlds. Once they have detailed all the core areas of the campaign worlds and sold the books, they detail some massive crisis that flames everything, and then sell new editions of books covering the same areas.

In this case the whole idea of Cataclysm is ridiculous when you consider that Deathwing might be powerful lore wise, but he's not anything compared to say Arthas or Yog Saron, never mind Agalon, yet he's being presented as capable of doing something that Arthas and Yog couldn't in a matter of days.

It's pretty much Blizzard saying "look, there is another giant loot Pinata at te end of the expansion! Expand your EPEEN scores and chaaarge!" while counting the money. Sadly, the social aspects of the game mean that it's probably going to work, and even I'm going to play it due to the time I already put in and the people I know.

The point here is that as far as money grabs go, this one isn't even all that well designed. I think a lot of people were kind of hoping that Blizzard would stun people with coming up with something awesome to top Lich King if they ever did come out with another expansion, but really they didn't.

Ah well enough rambling, such are my opinions, and it seems a lot of people agree with me. Of course then again since I'm probably going to buy and play this I am arguably part of the problem as I'm always talking about in regards to other games.

Scrumpmonkey:

XinfiniteX:
It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

Not to mention they are re-working most of the other areas for lower level players, it adds up to a big change and not just a lazy "Add a few levels and stuff". I think it's a pretty ballsy update from Blizzard considering they could have just added a new small island for 80-85 content and had less bitching about it.

not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.

Ok, I been through game changing events in MMOs. First was Ultima Online when it destroyed my favorite city of Yew in a game patch, a little angry, one I thought Yew was one of the nicer cities and I used it often, angry, but not game quitting angry. Then the huge Star Wars Galaxies debacle, I laugh now because it was World of Warcraft's fault.

I see this as a little different. I'll agree it is moved by money, but also a little of new understanding of the direction of the game. Wrath of Lich King was a success because Blizzard knows what players want. Cataclysm was an excuse to reforge Azeroth to the style that was so successful in Wrath, 2500 new quests and quest-lines in the the old world, then another 1000 quests in the 78-85 zones. Zones redesigned to flow better. I barely touched old zones now, a couple minutes, maybe an hour for leveling an alt. And I've seen the redone capital cities, they are amazing compared to the old versions, part better design, part better graphics engine.

As for the gameplay shake up, the stats were almost to a breaking point in the game, for example dodge worked to the point where either a player dodged the incoming attack or was one-shoted. Now they designers have more room to work.

And they added more perks for social gaming like the new guild system.

Therumancer:

Cataclysm is pretty much an undisguised money grab. They are redoing large portions of the game because they have pretty much developed everything of note. There are no real threats left in Azaroth so they pretty much need to pull one out of their keister and somehow try
and make it more epic than the events they spent years leading up to.

Um... the cause of all the events of Warcraft 2 could be pointed directly at Deathwing. So much for pulling a threat out of their keister huh?

Therumancer:

Maraveno:
I feel the bad reactions to cataclysm were the equivalent of 13 year old halo fans

It's just whining without real reason

Well, yes and no.

One thing you have to understand was that Warcraft had a sort of storyline to it that has been going on for a long time. "World Of Warcraft" was build up around the events of "Warcraft 3" and the entire plot driving the game has revolved around Arthas. With the end of "Lich King" Arthas is no more, and that should be that. Logically that should be the end of the story, and it's time for everyone to ride off into the sunset so to speak.

The problem of course being that WoW is a business, and since there are a lot of players, Blizzard wants to make more money. Forget the integrity of the storyline, or even common sense, they can't decide to end things gracefully when there is more money to be made!

Cataclysm is pretty much an undisguised money grab. They are redoing large portions of the game because they have pretty much developed everything of note. There are no real threats left in Azaroth so they pretty much need to pull one out of their keister and somehow try
and make it more epic than the events they spent years leading up to.

For a lot of the people complaining I think it comes down to the simple fact that they want to be there for the end of the story so to speak, and with that completed rather than getting on with their new MMO project and closing WoW down or whatever (which I guess few people should have ever really expected) they are instead producing what amounts to a poorly conceived sequel.

It's sort of like all the stuff various owners of the Dungeons And Dragons liscence have done to campaign worlds. Once they have detailed all the core areas of the campaign worlds and sold the books, they detail some massive crisis that flames everything, and then sell new editions of books covering the same areas.

In this case the whole idea of Cataclysm is ridiculous when you consider that Deathwing might be powerful lore wise, but he's not anything compared to say Arthas or Yog Saron, never mind Agalon, yet he's being presented as capable of doing something that Arthas and Yog couldn't in a matter of days.

It's pretty much Blizzard saying "look, there is another giant loot Pinata at te end of the expansion! Expand your EPEEN scores and chaaarge!" while counting the money. Sadly, the social aspects of the game mean that it's probably going to work, and even I'm going to play it due to the time I already put in and the people I know.

The point here is that as far as money grabs go, this one isn't even all that well designed. I think a lot of people were kind of hoping that Blizzard would stun people with coming up with something awesome to top Lich King if they ever did come out with another expansion, but really they didn't.

Ah well enough rambling, such are my opinions, and it seems a lot of people agree with me. Of course then again since I'm probably going to buy and play this I am arguably part of the problem as I'm always talking about in regards to other games.

Sorry, I think you're pretty much wrong on all provable (that is, non-subjective) counts.

A.) How is Arthas the end? Arthas wasn't even introduced until WC3. This just ties up the storyline of WC3, not the WC story as a whole. The Legion is still out there, Sargeras is still out there, there are still other Old Gods - to think that the story of Azeroth is over just because a (admittedly very major) villain has been defeated is just silly.

B.) Deathwing was hinted to be lurking and preparing ever since... well, Vanilla, I guess, when it was hinted that something was in Grim Batol that the Red Flight was guarding, and it was intensified in BC with the Netherwing flight and the NPCs there. We all knew he was coming back.

Deathwing was a major baddie ever since WC2, and it was always hinted that he was still around. This is hardly an ass-pull, it was one of the main questions WoW players were asking Blizz since the launch of Vanilla.

C.) Arthas stronger than Deathwing? Seriously? Deathwing is the embodiment of the Earth and a fully powered Aspect is way worse than Arthas could have ever hoped to be.

D.) Have you actually played Cataclysm? I've been in the beta for a while now and the difference in quality between old-world Vanilla and the new areas is flabbergasting. How can it possibly be a "cash grab" when it takes twice as long and twice as much work, but costs the same as a regular expansion? Oh, and half of the stuff (all of the changes to the old world) they aren't even charging for--that comes free with 4.0.

The game itself is infinitely better in 4.0 than it ever was. It's so much more fun to play, both in terms of content and system design.

ionveau:

Scrumpmonkey:

XinfiniteX:
It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

Not to mention they are re-working most of the other areas for lower level players, it adds up to a big change and not just a lazy "Add a few levels and stuff". I think it's a pretty ballsy update from Blizzard considering they could have just added a new small island for 80-85 content and had less bitching about it.

not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.

Shh, your ignorance is showing.

WoW has some of the most ridiculously cool and complex bosses I've ever seen in a game, and I've been gaming for twenty five years now.

fKd:
ok im cheap i guess... first i brought wow classic, then payed again for burning crusade, then the lich king now this... all the while paying each month to play... seems expensive to me. look at eve, you dont pay for expansions as its part of your monthly sub fee. just sayin... blizzard are milking its customers and fan base because they know these ppl are addicted. kinda like junkies...

but well... yeah... keep on grinding.

Thank you THANK YOU

ionveau:

not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.

I totally agree they can't keep pumping out expansions and gain new customers, but at the same time, most of the cataclysm changes are available without having to buy any expansions. Then they'll start putting out battlechests and go cheaper on the previous expansion packs.

ionveau:

Scrumpmonkey:

XinfiniteX:
It's an expansion. It's sold for 40% less then a full game. Complaining about value is what people do because they are cheap. The amount of tweaks, changes and updates, along with the new 80-85 and end game content, I'd say we aren't paying enough. From what I've seen at Blizzcon, I would say we are going to be getting our monies worth... and then some. I can't wait!

Not to mention they are re-working most of the other areas for lower level players, it adds up to a big change and not just a lazy "Add a few levels and stuff". I think it's a pretty ballsy update from Blizzard considering they could have just added a new small island for 80-85 content and had less bitching about it.

not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.

Shh, your ignorance is showing.

WoW has some of the most ridiculously cool and complex bosses I've ever seen in a game, and I've been gaming for twenty five years now.[/quote]

Twenty five years you say?

Blizzard could add a mining mini game thats like minecraft why they dont? engine sucks

They have no clip flying mounts(Who else agrees flying mounts feel like you have no clip on)

Most boss fights are just debuffs and buffs with "cute" animations to distract you from seeing its just numbers

The "new" engine update death grip feels glitchy

they could add better skills then jump back really fare or pull a person but they cant and whos to blame? the engine

You will never see them add a grappling hook like in just cause 2

You will never see them have seesaw puzzles like in half life

So yes WoW is a complex game, it has alot of numbers and you need numbers to beat those numbers

Do you notice how the boss run animations dont match up with there speed?

Wait...people were actually stupid enough to think Cat is a copout?
Oh right, most gamers think Halo or MW2 is the be all end all of gaming, the real question is why am I still suprised?

So...

1. This to make up for the pathetic LK fight

2. This to make up for the pathetic WotLK

3. Drum up hope for World of Warcraft 2/ Universe of Starcraft / Diablo MMO - 2012 project

-shrug- You destroyed a lot of memories and only give me 5 levels to roam in my new broken world...

ionveau:

...

Twenty five years you say?

Blizzard could add a mining mini game thats like minecraft why they dont? engine sucks

They have no clip flying mounts(Who else agrees flying mounts feel like you have no clip on)

Most boss fights are just debuffs and buffs with "cute" animations to distract you from seeing its just numbers

The "new" engine update death grip feels glitchy

they could add better skills then jump back really fare or pull a person but they cant and whos to blame? the engine

You will never see them add a grappling hook like in just cause 2

You will never see them have seesaw puzzles like in half life

So yes WoW is a complex game, it has alot of numbers and you need numbers to beat those numbers

Do you notice how the boss run animations dont match up with there speed?

You're confusing "engine" with "design intent" quite badly. There's no limitation keeping them from modifying in minecraft-like play, and likewise the engine doesn't limit them to "just knockbacks, jumping, and pulling" so much as balance and skill design. Now, you are at least right with the see-saw puzzle to an extent: besides gravity, there's not much physics modeled. But again, not that hard to modify in, even if just local triggers. 'Bring these items into this invisible box and the seesaw moves' might already be possible without even needing to modify the engine.

The grappling hook I guarantee could already be pulled off if they wanted it. See the jumpbot daily in Icecrown for a point-to-target style, and any vehicle gun for an aiming version.

Do you really want clipping flying mounts? Really? That would be awful. SWG had clipping on items in houses for a while, it wasn't so bad at times, but it was ultimately removed because 1) people learned how to literally trap people in a house due to lag and 2) you couldn't move around otherwise. Yes, they could have player-clipping if they wanted. It doesn't make for a fun game, most of the time.

Finally, all games are just numbers. RTS's? Damage and armor formulas. FPS? Ray-tracing to hit boxes. Do they intersect? It's a hit! Where did you hit and with what? Calculation for damage! Explosions? Well that's just ray tracing or trajectory to a target spot, create a sphere and calculate if hit boxes touch that radius. Trying to deride WoW boss fights as "nothing but numbers" is just ludicrous.

I won't go in to animation problems. WoW is not the only offender in the least, that sort of thing is in any 3D game, even if you don't see it as easily. I'll keep my giant, lumbering monstrosities lumbers on what must be very slick surfaces so long as the lumbering still looks good, thank you.

Yeah cata is gonna be cool at least exploration wise but you know what else is cool not having a 50/50 chance to crash because of cogwheels. Yes I turned off tooltips but that just means it's 50/50 not 100% now..

Any who got my horse so I'm happy and hope that cata brings in underground quest zones like the nerubian zones were supposed to be ><

More on topic I initially thought this was gonna be a half ass cash grab with little to nothing new as programming an entire world is a lot more work than a reskin but from what I have seen I suppose it is a lot of work and they pretty much are redesigning the world and only have a basic layout of what it once was. Now if we can just get saurfang to lead the horde instead.

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