BlizzCon 2010: Cataclysm Equals Two Expansions' Worth of Work

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Maraveno:
I feel the bad reactions to cataclysm were the equivalent of 13 year old halo fans

It's just whining without real reason

I agree with that.

I think though that Blizzard may have bitten off a bit more than they can chew with this expansion. I am a huge WoW fan (have several level 80s...have raided most of IceCrown Citadel as a Blood Elf Hunter) but from my time spent in the beta I've noticed how horribly buggy everything still is. Even on the live servers during the current 4.0.1 patch, not everything is correct, things are messed up, and I can't tell you how many random disconnects I've had since that patch went live. Yeah it's come a long way but Blizz is going to have issues come release day...more so than they did with Wrath...and mainly because I feel they've done too much too soon.

Lt. Vinciti:
So...

1. This to make up for the pathetic LK fight

2. This to make up for the pathetic WotLK

3. Drum up hope for World of Warcraft 2/ Universe of Starcraft / Diablo MMO - 2012 project

-shrug- You destroyed a lot of memories and only give me 5 levels to roam in my new broken world...

Everything I've read says it does.

Also the 2012 project is a completely new IP, no Starcraft, Warcraft or Diablo.

Blizzard cannot "destroy" your memories, your memories will still be there, and you'll experience them using Azeroth again, additionally, the "5 levels" will take just as long as 70-80 did, it just means gaining a level means more. (also you gain a talent point every level after 80).

Deylin:

I agree with that.

I think though that Blizzard may have bitten off a bit more than they can chew with this expansion. I am a huge WoW fan (have several level 80s...have raided most of IceCrown Citadel as a Blood Elf Hunter) but from my time spent in the beta I've noticed how horribly buggy everything still is. Even on the live servers during the current 4.0.1 patch, not everything is correct, things are messed up, and I can't tell you how many random disconnects I've had since that patch went live. Yeah it's come a long way but Blizz is going to have issues come release day...more so than they did with Wrath...and mainly because I feel they've done too much too soon.

Blizzard never bites off more than it can chew, I do feel they rushed 4.0 a bit, however, it should be noted that 4.0 has the biggest amount of complete overhauls ever. New mechanics like the eclipse mechanic, soul shards, holy power, completely different talent trees for everyone.

As for beta....it's still beta and experiencing bugs there should not worry you...I played both previous betas and I found bugs all the way up until release, then they were fixed on live.

So far my biggest issues with Cata is the silly way levelling a new character will go now. You will start in post Cata Azeroth, then hop casually into Outlands and Northrend to poke around with bit's of Legion/long dead Illidan/Arthas and then go back to Azeroth for more Deathwing madness.

That is sadly always the bad thing about re-designing old content. They can't make 2 previous expansions obsolete but same time it's impossible to keep the proper flow with all those gimmicks.

"They're both fantasy games, yeah, but one is more traditional 'Tolkienian' fantasy whil...." *reading comes to a screeching halt.

WHAT? No. NO. Nononononononon.

WoW is NOT "Tolkenian" Fantasy!

Look, i am no hardcore fanboy, but as someone who has read the Books LONG before the Movies were even announced and also as someone who had his fair share of fun in WoW i have to tell you that you ARE NOT even close to that universe.

You were once, the Problem is that the overarching of Steampunk (i love Steampunk by the Way) and the massive jokearounds (wich in my oppinion are sometines a bit to much so that it grinds into the athmosphere of the overall world and game) put you more into the region of Terry Prachet (wich i also love and read regularely. ^.^).

That is fine with me, but you are NOT on a "Tolkenian" Level. (I can't press on that enough.)

ionveau:

not to mention that buying WoW will cost 170$ for the full game soon enough, really for the amount blizzard makes for the product i expected more play things but i assume that this is everything they can do with the game engine, i bet the SC2 map editor can make better boss fights then the WoW engine.

How will the full game cost 170 bucks when the rrp price of WoW, TBC and WotLK has dropped? I could get all three from my local GAME store for about 30 now, which is about $50, so unless you're being charged somethere in the region of $100-120 for Cata I suspect that you're just whining baselessly.

There seems to be a lot of complaining about Blizzard making a product to make money here, well Boo Hoo! Blizzard is a private company operating in a capitalist market who have their shareholders to answer to, welcome to the real world people. If you don't like how that works you don't have to buy it.

It's hillarious how many people are facerolling on the keyboard about Blizzard having high prices while they themselfs have no idea how the market works.

While I agree that it was alot of work to rework their game into WoW 2.0, right now the players of the game are being forced to act as Beta testers. There was a bit of this in BC/Wrath but this time its really awful. The pace is breakneck and the bugs many and why? Because Blizzard is married to the release date over its supposed addition to quality.

This all has to do with revamping the property as a money grind for the company instead of to making quality games.

GM tickes average 4-7 days, bugs that dont get fixed for longer, broken and disfunctional gameplay...for over a month, and were paying for it.

They have ruined whatever good fuzzy emotions I had for them as a company, all I have seen for month is a soulless money machine.

The reworking was an absolute neccesity for low levels, and may I remind people is COMPLETELY FREE TOO. Blizzard wouldnt have done this if they didnt see a way to pull in more people; and lets face it, the beggining part of WoW has not aged well. Its horrible.

If you have the expansion or not, the world still gets sundered. But in Blizzards defence, thats a massive patch to do.

Either way, its 5 levels, new raids, and a TON of new content. For like $40. Its not Blizzard being lazy, its Blizzard being a company. They give us FREE updates all the time, with TONS of content. This expansion is giving us even more content, and modernizing the game.

As for 4.0, they did rush that a little. But I expect Blizzard is already working on numerous fixes to release with The Sundering, whenever the hell that happens (sooner rather than later, according to Blizzard at BlizzCon). I was expecting it when they announced all they were reworking. Balacing power at low levels in the format they're using is difficult. And the bugs, while annoying, aren't game breaking. They don't pull the game to a standstill and beat you over the head with bad. I had just as much issue with pre-Wrath patches as I do with pre-Cata. When they add a new expansion, the game gets broken for a while. Most you can do is stop paying for the game until they fix the patches.

it's "WoW:TNG"

a lot of the old school are gonna leave.

i mean enjoy your game (and it is a good one even if it is showing its age) but the death of Arthas is a solid jumping off point and a great many people didn't actually want their online "home" entirely redecorated and quite liked having 5 years of accumulated knowledge of where everything is tyvm.

as for the 25 year guy with his bigging up of the latest expansion boss /sigh...even Blizzard have admitted they decided on what they were going to "fix" first and then decided on Deathwing as the method to justify those world changes after the fact and after a series of meetings where alternatives were fully considered and argued out.

he didn't appear in WC2 btw he appeared in the WC2 expansion and lorewise, just like Illidan, he has basically been brought back from the dead but then "the lore" is a joke no one really cares about now so what the hell y'know...

in short he's a means to an end shoehorned in as a viable antagonist and the "omg but Deathwing is more powerful than X, Y and Z" crap makes you should like an immature fanboi sucking on their hype pipe.

he was, in the lore as it stood, no more powerful than any of the other remaining Dragon aspects until Metzen said the Old Gods have been basically powering him up somehow which is basically an ass whip out MacGuffin after the destruction of The Demon Soul but as i said no one cares any more.

the game is a theme park based on it's former self and like i said WoW:TNG

but if you actually cared about the old world and things like real cohesive storytelling and lore (and i'm not even going to mention how utterly obviously buttfucked you are getting if you play Alliance in Cata) WoW doesn't feel like home any more.

enjoy your game but don't slag people off if they decide to call it quits because undeniably the game has changed and people are perfectly entitled to react to drastic change as they see fit.

Uber Waddles:
The reworking was an absolute neccesity for low levels, and may I remind people is COMPLETELY FREE TOO. Blizzard wouldnt have done this if they didnt see a way to pull in more people; and lets face it, the beggining part of WoW has not aged well. Its horrible.

If you have the expansion or not, the world still gets sundered. But in Blizzards defence, thats a massive patch to do.

Either way, its 5 levels, new raids, and a TON of new content. For like $40. Its not Blizzard being lazy, its Blizzard being a company. They give us FREE updates all the time, with TONS of content. This expansion is giving us even more content, and modernizing the game.

As for 4.0, they did rush that a little. But I expect Blizzard is already working on numerous fixes to release with The Sundering, whenever the hell that happens (sooner rather than later, according to Blizzard at BlizzCon). I was expecting it when they announced all they were reworking. Balacing power at low levels in the format they're using is difficult. And the bugs, while annoying, aren't game breaking. They don't pull the game to a standstill and beat you over the head with bad. I had just as much issue with pre-Wrath patches as I do with pre-Cata. When they add a new expansion, the game gets broken for a while. Most you can do is stop paying for the game until they fix the patches.

Fun fact you pay $0.50 daily unless your playing a private server so NOTHING is free
blizzard could make the game free but still have the monthly fee and still make a profit,

Blizzard dose not want to tell us the cost of maintaining the servers etc and what there monthly income is, somewhere i heard that blizzard rakes in more money then Nintendo witch i assume is true

And also do you notice the lazy content patches they bring out? they build a room with 10 things to fight and say there you go play with it for 3months

JerrytheBullfrog:

Sorry, I think you're pretty much wrong on all provable (that is, non-subjective) counts.

Opinions are going to vary of course, but you need to read what I said more closely. I did mention Deathwing was mentioned in the Lore. The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King. I also mentioned not only him, but the fact that at this point we've also dealt with Yog Saron who is a lovecraftian terror whose very release, even momentarily, caused the overgods to send a being to destroy the planet since his threat was multiversal in scale. Agalon [SP] was easily capable of destroying the entire planet by the very concept.

Deathwing in comparison is small potatoes. Yes, he was mentiond before, but the reason why he's being pulled out now is simply because he's mentioned in the lore and they are pretty much looking for anything they can use to justify another expansion and more money.

There are always going to be people who defend anything, and I get that. World Of Warcraft has a massive fanbase and people who are going to support more of it no matter what. If Blizzard wanted to release an expansion pack about how "The Flying Spaghetti Monster" is actually the lord of creation and being angry with how things have turned out has returned with a vengeance and heroes need to assemble to stop him, there would be people who would defend this until their dying breath.

As I myself said though, I can't really complain too much because this is one of those situations where I am going to buy a product against my better judgement for a number of reasons. That does not change the fact that the complaints are fairly justified.

See, the problem is that nobody should really have expected Blizzard to ever shut Warcraft down or stop supporting it while it was still making a ton of money and fairly "hot". The "keep them wanting more" logic has yet to seep in with video games. The "right" thing to do with the IP would have been to just stop releasing supplements and turn things off in another year or so when Blizzard's new MMORPG property comes out to avoid competing with themselves. That way later, when it comes time for that new IP to be put out to pressure, they can bring out "World Of Warcraft 2" set in a differant age, with new technology, and probably a decade or so to have worked on the writing instead of "giant flaming dragon wrecks everything allowing us to rebuild all the old zones, before sitting down in a dungeon atop a giant pile of loot".

oathblade:
While I agree that it was alot of work to rework their game into WoW 2.0, right now the players of the game are being forced to act as Beta testers. There was a bit of this in BC/Wrath but this time its really awful. The pace is breakneck and the bugs many and why? Because Blizzard is married to the release date over its supposed addition to quality.

This all has to do with revamping the property as a money grind for the company instead of to making quality games.

GM tickes average 4-7 days, bugs that dont get fixed for longer, broken and disfunctional gameplay...for over a month, and were paying for it.

They have ruined whatever good fuzzy emotions I had for them as a company, all I have seen for month is a soulless money machine.

Really? They rolled out some fixes to the major issues pretty quickly, and I think with the magnitude of the change a lot of bugs like that are to be expected. Some things just can't be tested until you put them in the hands of 12 million people, you know?

How long did it take them to fix Vanish again? :P It's all about priorities, I'm saying.

mikozero:

as for the 25 year guy with his bigging up of the latest expansion boss /sigh...even Blizzard have admitted they decided on what they were going to "fix" first and then decided on Deathwing as the method to justify those world changes after the fact and after a series of meetings where alternatives were fully considered and argued out.

he didn't appear in WC2 btw he appeared in the WC2 expansion and lorewise, just like Illidan, he has basically been brought back from the dead but then "the lore" is a joke no one really cares about now so what the hell y'know...

in short he's a means to an end shoehorned in as a viable antagonist and the "omg but Deathwing is more powerful than X, Y and Z" crap makes you should like an immature fanboi sucking on their hype pipe.

I know that, don't insult my intelligence by telling me I don't. I'm just saying that the in-game lore was definitely written to establish Deathwing as a potential threat lurking out there for exactly this reason--they could bring him back whenever they needed him, which was now. It still doesn't change the fact that his return was being foreshadowed.

(And yes I know that it was WC2x, I was using WC2 for shorthand, just like we talk Arthas being the Lich King in WC3, not WC3x).

WC lore is filled with retcons all over the place at this point, and the lore that was being set up over the last five years was clearly used as a springboard to reintroduce Deathwing as this big bad threat.

If you want to leave the game with Cataclysm, hey be my guest I'm not stopping you. Everyone's gotta quit sometime, right? I just dislike factually wrong information.

ionveau:

Fun fact you pay $0.50 daily unless your playing a private server so NOTHING is free
blizzard could make the game free but still have the monthly fee and still make a profit,

Blizzard dose not want to tell us the cost of maintaining the servers etc and what there monthly income is, somewhere i heard that blizzard rakes in more money then Nintendo witch i assume is true

And also do you notice the lazy content patches they bring out? they build a room with 10 things to fight and say there you go play with it for 3months

Do you do anything other than complain? I'm just saying.

Nobody's saying ToC was their finest moment, especially coming between Ulduar and ICC. On the other hand, players were asking for a no-trash raid since Vanilla.

Therumancer:

JerrytheBullfrog:

Sorry, I think you're pretty much wrong on all provable (that is, non-subjective) counts.

Opinions are going to vary of course, but you need to read what I said more closely. I did mention Deathwing was mentioned in the Lore. The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King. I also mentioned not only him, but the fact that at this point we've also dealt with Yog Saron who is a lovecraftian terror whose very release, even momentarily, caused the overgods to send a being to destroy the planet since his threat was multiversal in scale. Agalon [SP] was easily capable of destroying the entire planet by the very concept.

"the primal spirit of death"? Yeah, the primal spirit of death that was just introduced in the expansion pack to WC3, who was only even around for what, a decade in the in-game lore? Any of the Aspects, as built up in the last few years, were way bigger potatoes than him. You're still ignoring the fact that wow since Vanilla has been specifically saying "ooh, Deathwing's still out there, we don't know what's up with him!!!" much in the same way that they've been teasing the Infinite Dragonflight as villains. Does it mean they'll use them as villains? No, but the lore justification is there for them to use it.

Your point is invalidated by the fact that they're rolling out the changes in 4.0 for everyone whether they've bought Cataclysm or not. I don't know if you've gone back to Vanilla WoW lately, but the old game is pretty shit at this point. This was a desperately needed change.

And frankly, from a business perspective your ideas just don't make sense.

JerrytheBullfrog:
[
And frankly, from a business perspective your ideas just don't make sense.

This is the only bit that is valid and then only to a point.

I think you don't get what I'm saying about Deathwing at all. Deathwing was an enemy that should have been brought out before Ulduar and Arthas if they were going to use him at all. The events of the game have already surpassed him. He is not worthy of being the next step up from what has already happened conceptually.

You are correct that from a current business perspective what I am saying does not make sense. To today's corperate mentality what is good for a property is irrelevent, it's about running everything into the ground irregardless of diminishing quality and only moving on once every bit of profit has been strip mined from it's quivering corpse.

Right now World Of Warcraft has already been successful, it's made profits in excess of what it cost to produce. If they were to shut off the servers tomorrow it would still be a huge success. The only reason why this hasn't happened, and we're seeing things like Cataclysm is that Blizzard realizes that there is enough of an installed fan base where they can make more money right now.

Taking a long term perspective like I mentioned, the "keep them wanting more" strategy would probably generate more money in the long term, but it doesn't put money into pockets with that property right now, and that is the crucial issue.

Your right from the perspective of a "what will put the most money in Activision/Blizzard's pockets in the short term" attitude, but wrong in an absolute sense of what will make more money in the long run (perhaps turning into a multi-generational franchise) and be good for the IP itself.

WoW has already made a profit as I mentioned, and a huge one. Blizzard already has other products on the market making them a ton of money. It has another MMORPG in development as I'm typing this. It's all about making a cash grab right now.

Keava:
So far my biggest issues with Cata is the silly way levelling a new character will go now. You will start in post Cata Azeroth, then hop casually into Outlands and Northrend to poke around with bit's of Legion/long dead Illidan/Arthas and then go back to Azeroth for more Deathwing madness.

That is sadly always the bad thing about re-designing old content. They can't make 2 previous expansions obsolete but same time it's impossible to keep the proper flow with all those gimmicks.

Actually, if I understand it correctly, Azeroth areas will have 60-80 stuff as well. You can still go to Outland if you want, but there will be additional zones in those levels as well. I've got nothing to back me up on that though, just something I might have read before.

Welp, now I've gotta save up to pay for that additional flying mount fee. Are they going to explain just WHY we couldn't fly our own mounts in there before? is there too much air traffic to deal with? Come on guys!

(I'm kidding, no doubt the lack of universal flying mounts is a relic of an old game that is now quite outdated. No need to explain! though it could be amusing to see why.)

MorteSphere:
I don't think Blizzard is capable of being cheap. :V

With 12 million players around the world, thats a lot of bodies needed to manage a ton of servers. Not to mention maitenence, wages for said workers, etc.

I've always wondered what the monthly balance of blizzard tends to be. I have the feeling that its a lot less than those set on the idea that "Blizzard are greedy money hungry gluttons" seem to believe it is.

Brand new content 1-60, and 80-85 is completely worth my $40.00. Not to mention new races, and a world event that's actually growing and evolving the persistent world I've enjoyed for years.

Therumancer:
The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King.

Not really. He's just a dude that fused with a puppet of the Legion that rebelled that happened to have the power to make ghouls and ghosts and got worshipped for it. It's more like a powerful necromancer than anything else. There must be a lich king because you don't want a zombie apocalypse. It's like in the cold was, if a president dies, the nukes then have a twisted free will. You just don't want them loose.

Therumancer:

JerrytheBullfrog:
[
And frankly, from a business perspective your ideas just don't make sense.

This is the only bit that is valid and then only to a point.

I think you don't get what I'm saying about Deathwing at all. Deathwing was an enemy that should have been brought out before Ulduar and Arthas if they were going to use him at all. The events of the game have already surpassed him. He is not worthy of being the next step up from what has already happened conceptually.

You are correct that from a current business perspective what I am saying does not make sense. To today's corperate mentality what is good for a property is irrelevent, it's about running everything into the ground irregardless of diminishing quality and only moving on once every bit of profit has been strip mined from it's quivering corpse.

Right now World Of Warcraft has already been successful, it's made profits in excess of what it cost to produce. If they were to shut off the servers tomorrow it would still be a huge success. The only reason why this hasn't happened, and we're seeing things like Cataclysm is that Blizzard realizes that there is enough of an installed fan base where they can make more money right now.

Taking a long term perspective like I mentioned, the "keep them wanting more" strategy would probably generate more money in the long term, but it doesn't put money into pockets with that property right now, and that is the crucial issue.

Your right from the perspective of a "what will put the most money in Activision/Blizzard's pockets in the short term" attitude, but wrong in an absolute sense of what will make more money in the long run (perhaps turning into a multi-generational franchise) and be good for the IP itself.

WoW has already made a profit as I mentioned, and a huge one. Blizzard already has other products on the market making them a ton of money. It has another MMORPG in development as I'm typing this. It's all about making a cash grab right now.

I'm really not following you. How is wanting to improve the overall quality of your game to bring an entirely new audience into the fold not an improvement for the IP as a whole?

Yeah, Algalon could have called the Titans in to unmake Azeroth. So then shouldn't he have been the final boss of WotLK, not Arthas?

If you leave side bosses out of it, there's a pretty linear progression in terms of storyline power regarding main villains. Nefarian/Kelthuzad -> Illidan -> Arthas -> Deathwing.

For all intents and purposes, Cataclysm is WoW 2.

lomylithruldor:

Therumancer:
The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King.

Not really. He's just a dude that fused with a puppet of the Legion that rebelled that happened to have the power to make ghouls and ghosts and got worshipped for it. It's more like a powerful necromancer than anything else. There must be a lich king because you don't want a zombie apocalypse. It's like in the cold was, if a president dies, the nukes then have a twisted free will. You just don't want them loose.

This is the best analogy. Thanks for putting a smile on my face :)

They should make a boss that's tangible (in game) and requires certain participants to climb on top of it and melee it's head directly or something like that. The first phase could play out, then after a certain amount of damage the boss would collapse or lower it's tail to the ground, then a certain group would be required to quickly climb on top of it to attack a seperate body part or reach an elevated part of the room.

Deathwing > Lich King.

Sorry guys, but Deathwing could CLEARLY make Lich King his bitch. Does that mean good old Arthas isn't a big villian? No. But I like the idea of a new world and a new villian. I would have been very sad if they ended the story with Arthas.

Interestingly enough... When you think about Lich King (or at least when I do) I think of an icy world and a cold, evil villian. From what I've seen of Deathwing, I instantly fire and pure, hot, evil.

I think it would be interesting if we saw (though I know it won't happen since we've killed him) if the Lich King tried to go against Deathwing. If you've played as a DK in WoW, you get to see the Lich King fight someone during one of your missions. It is REALLY awesome.

I have high hopes for Cata. I've already enjoyed the patch they've made. Unlike some of the people I call "whiners", I like the new talent tree and the changes to the classes.
My hunter is now the beast of battlegrounds! Muahaha

Therumancer:

Maraveno:
I feel the bad reactions to cataclysm were the equivalent of 13 year old halo fans

It's just whining without real reason

Well, yes and no.

One thing you have to understand was that Warcraft had a sort of storyline to it that has been going on for a long time. "World Of Warcraft" was build up around the events of "Warcraft 3" and the entire plot driving the game has revolved around Arthas. With the end of "Lich King" Arthas is no more, and that should be that. Logically that should be the end of the story, and it's time for everyone to ride off into the sunset so to speak.

Or, you know, they could continue the story. I know on one-hand that reeks of Lucas-style franchise murder, but on the other hand the Warcraft games set up an entire universe to be expanded upon. Kil'Jaeden is still technically alive, Sargeras' whereabouts are unknown, there are more Old Gods still chained beneath the earth, another Dragon Aspect MIA, and numerous other characters who were in previous games that haven't been brought back up yet. If you thought Wrath was going to be the end of it you're ridiculous. Especially when it set the benchmark of, what, 12 million subscribers now? You don't just quit releasing content when that happens, MMO's are a very different medium than other games. The whole point is to always have a lot to do and to see, it's supposed to be a living world. You can't just end an MMO's story like you can a novel.

coldfrog:
Actually, if I understand it correctly, Azeroth areas will have 60-80 stuff as well. You can still go to Outland if you want, but there will be additional zones in those levels as well. I've got nothing to back me up on that though, just something I might have read before.

Actually no. You will have to go to Outlands/Northrend for 60-80. Remember those Death Knight's from the DK starting zone/Icecrown gunships? Thassarian/Koltira? They're in the new Western Plaguelands, which is now a level 40-ish zone. They even specifically mention Arthas being defeated. Then you go to Northrend and help them kill Arthas about 40 levels later. Yeah...it's weird.

coldfrog:
Welp, now I've gotta save up to pay for that additional flying mount fee. Are they going to explain just WHY we couldn't fly our own mounts in there before? is there too much air traffic to deal with? Come on guys!

(I'm kidding, no doubt the lack of universal flying mounts is a relic of an old game that is now quite outdated. No need to explain! though it could be amusing to see why.)

You didn't have your license.

I'm serious.

coldfrog:

Actually, if I understand it correctly, Azeroth areas will have 60-80 stuff as well. You can still go to Outland if you want, but there will be additional zones in those levels as well. I've got nothing to back me up on that though, just something I might have read before.

Welp, now I've gotta save up to pay for that additional flying mount fee. Are they going to explain just WHY we couldn't fly our own mounts in there before? is there too much air traffic to deal with? Come on guys!

(I'm kidding, no doubt the lack of universal flying mounts is a relic of an old game that is now quite outdated. No need to explain! though it could be amusing to see why.)

Got any source of that information? From what i checked on various websites and by asking people who actively played WoW for last 1.5 year it doesnt seem any of the old world zones gets 60-80 content. The WoWWiki site about Cata has listing of level ranges for old locations and all are below 60.

Keava:

coldfrog:

Actually, if I understand it correctly, Azeroth areas will have 60-80 stuff as well. You can still go to Outland if you want, but there will be additional zones in those levels as well. I've got nothing to back me up on that though, just something I might have read before.

Welp, now I've gotta save up to pay for that additional flying mount fee. Are they going to explain just WHY we couldn't fly our own mounts in there before? is there too much air traffic to deal with? Come on guys!

(I'm kidding, no doubt the lack of universal flying mounts is a relic of an old game that is now quite outdated. No need to explain! though it could be amusing to see why.)

Got any source of that information? From what i checked on various websites and by asking people who actively played WoW for last 1.5 year it doesnt seem any of the old world zones gets 60-80 content. The WoWWiki site about Cata has listing of level ranges for old locations and all are below 60.

Well, I did say I had nothing to back it up. I think I may have read something and taken it the wrong way, or heck, even imagined it. I can't say, that's why I included my disclaimer.

Yep. They've completely revamped most of the old world of Azeroth- but the same six year old models are still there. Blizzard desperately needs to update the character models for their initial eight races.

Hell, even the Draenei and Blood Elf models look dated compared to the Goblin and Worgen ones.

coldfrog:

Keava:

coldfrog:

Actually, if I understand it correctly, Azeroth areas will have 60-80 stuff as well. You can still go to Outland if you want, but there will be additional zones in those levels as well. I've got nothing to back me up on that though, just something I might have read before.

Welp, now I've gotta save up to pay for that additional flying mount fee. Are they going to explain just WHY we couldn't fly our own mounts in there before? is there too much air traffic to deal with? Come on guys!

(I'm kidding, no doubt the lack of universal flying mounts is a relic of an old game that is now quite outdated. No need to explain! though it could be amusing to see why.)

Got any source of that information? From what i checked on various websites and by asking people who actively played WoW for last 1.5 year it doesnt seem any of the old world zones gets 60-80 content. The WoWWiki site about Cata has listing of level ranges for old locations and all are below 60.

Well, I did say I had nothing to back it up. I think I may have read something and taken it the wrong way, or heck, even imagined it. I can't say, that's why I included my disclaimer.

It was asked about in one of the BlizzCon panels. The answer was basically along the lines of "yeaaaaaah, we dropped the ball on that one. We don't like it either, but there was too much to get done to update all four continents in one expansion. It'll be fixed Soon(tm)."

John Funk:

Therumancer:

JerrytheBullfrog:
[
And frankly, from a business perspective your ideas just don't make sense.

This is the only bit that is valid and then only to a point.

I think you don't get what I'm saying about Deathwing at all. Deathwing was an enemy that should have been brought out before Ulduar and Arthas if they were going to use him at all. The events of the game have already surpassed him. He is not worthy of being the next step up from what has already happened conceptually.

You are correct that from a current business perspective what I am saying does not make sense. To today's corperate mentality what is good for a property is irrelevent, it's about running everything into the ground irregardless of diminishing quality and only moving on once every bit of profit has been strip mined from it's quivering corpse.

Right now World Of Warcraft has already been successful, it's made profits in excess of what it cost to produce. If they were to shut off the servers tomorrow it would still be a huge success. The only reason why this hasn't happened, and we're seeing things like Cataclysm is that Blizzard realizes that there is enough of an installed fan base where they can make more money right now.

Taking a long term perspective like I mentioned, the "keep them wanting more" strategy would probably generate more money in the long term, but it doesn't put money into pockets with that property right now, and that is the crucial issue.

Your right from the perspective of a "what will put the most money in Activision/Blizzard's pockets in the short term" attitude, but wrong in an absolute sense of what will make more money in the long run (perhaps turning into a multi-generational franchise) and be good for the IP itself.

WoW has already made a profit as I mentioned, and a huge one. Blizzard already has other products on the market making them a ton of money. It has another MMORPG in development as I'm typing this. It's all about making a cash grab right now.

I'm really not following you. How is wanting to improve the overall quality of your game to bring an entirely new audience into the fold not an improvement for the IP as a whole?

Yeah, Algalon could have called the Titans in to unmake Azeroth. So then shouldn't he have been the final boss of WotLK, not Arthas?

If you leave side bosses out of it, there's a pretty linear progression in terms of storyline power regarding main villains. Nefarian/Kelthuzad -> Illidan -> Arthas -> Deathwing.

For all intents and purposes, Cataclysm is WoW 2.

lomylithruldor:

Therumancer:
The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King.

Not really. He's just a dude that fused with a puppet of the Legion that rebelled that happened to have the power to make ghouls and ghosts and got worshipped for it. It's more like a powerful necromancer than anything else. There must be a lich king because you don't want a zombie apocalypse. It's like in the cold was, if a president dies, the nukes then have a twisted free will. You just don't want them loose.

This is the best analogy. Thanks for putting a smile on my face :)

Actually I think that's a pretty poor analogy to the whole thing. A better analogy to The Liche King would be death's gatekeeper, or perhaps a deity like Hel or Hades. Zombie Apogolypse goes a bit beyond what would happen if he didn't exist, it would be the primal forces of the universe unraveling.

Now yes, Arthas being chosen for this role is a bit wonky, as what he did with it, but the whole problem is that he's not just some guy which is why it took such a major production and the convergence of numerous divine-level and above entities acting in succession to engineer his downfall. This is pretty much what the game and a lot of the quests are about.

I mean I understand how you want to view things, especially seeing as it plays into what you apparently want to see for World Of Warcraft... more expansions irregardless of anything, but that analogy for defining Arthas isn't really adequete.

Deathwing does not follow a logical progression of power at this point, he's on a lower tier of power than beings that have already been confronted. Not something worthy of the 80-85 bracket.

Also this is not "World Of Warcraft 2" or anything close to it really. It's more similar to an event run by an RPG company to sell books covering areas that were already covered. Same game, same engine.

A proper World Of Warcraft 2 would involve a total relaunch of the game, total character and zone wipage, a rehaul and rebalancing of the entire class and race system, and updated technology and graphics. With the entire game starting over again from level 1 for everyone, you might see Deathwing sitting where Ragnaros was for the basic product. I do understand that this is similar to how thing are with Cataclysm, but seeing as the game structure, progression, and most importantly character levels are all still intact it doesn't work too well. It's sort of like trying to say that Acerak is somehow a greater threat and more powerful being than Iuz. A group that already took Iuz down should have no problem with Acerak power level wise. (ultra nerdism... referance to Greyhawk).

Don't get me wrong, I understand the money reasons for this. If I was in Blizzard's shoes, especially with Bobby Kotick as my boss I'd be tempted to run the cash grab too as opposed to doing right by the properties.

As someone pointed out there are 12 million subscribers. That's a massive potential cash influx. To turn your back on the huge wads of cash you can make from that right now, even with the promise of making even more money a decade later, is not something many people are going to do.

Also, try and understand where I'm coming from here. World Of Warcraft is a great game, and the whole "Warcraft" universe is a great intellectual property. However throughout history there have been many other great universes and characters in fandom, and a lot of those had their potential squandered by the people controlling the IP simply overdoing it and pushing things to the absolute limit, until they literally destroyed both their IP and fan base. What could have been an ongoing, multi-generational property wound up being destroyed for fast cash. RPGs, Comics, movie and TV franchises, I'm sure we've all got our favorite stories.

Right now there are 12 million people screaming "more Warcraft", give them what they want right now, even doing a hack job, and there is plenty of money to be made. However as you do this kind of thing your going to slowly erode that fan base. Rather than eroding it to the point where nobody cares, it's probably better to stop when demand is high, and return later when you can really do justice to the franchise with a fresh perspective.

Blizzard isn't going to cancel Cataclysm, I have no illusions about that. Too much money has already been spent on this. But ask yourself, you defend the whole concept of Cataclysm and "Deathwing" as a final boss for it, and obviously don't agree with people like me here, but do you REALLY think it's going to stop here? When this succeeds don't you think that there will be ANOTHER supplement with them reaching for another boss that doesn't quite fit into the progression they set up? If say WoW drops to 10 million subscribers or whatever, do you think they won't just continue to sell to that 10 million due to the money being made?

I have no illusions of being able to stop the cycle (though I can always hope), but the point is that I think Warcraft deserves better than to be run into the ground. Rather it deserves to end on a high note, and be remembered fondly, rather than something that used to be good but was beaten to death by doing too much too fast.

Therumancer:

John Funk:

Therumancer:

JerrytheBullfrog:
[
And frankly, from a business perspective your ideas just don't make sense.

This is the only bit that is valid and then only to a point.

I think you don't get what I'm saying about Deathwing at all. Deathwing was an enemy that should have been brought out before Ulduar and Arthas if they were going to use him at all. The events of the game have already surpassed him. He is not worthy of being the next step up from what has already happened conceptually.

You are correct that from a current business perspective what I am saying does not make sense. To today's corperate mentality what is good for a property is irrelevent, it's about running everything into the ground irregardless of diminishing quality and only moving on once every bit of profit has been strip mined from it's quivering corpse.

Right now World Of Warcraft has already been successful, it's made profits in excess of what it cost to produce. If they were to shut off the servers tomorrow it would still be a huge success. The only reason why this hasn't happened, and we're seeing things like Cataclysm is that Blizzard realizes that there is enough of an installed fan base where they can make more money right now.

Taking a long term perspective like I mentioned, the "keep them wanting more" strategy would probably generate more money in the long term, but it doesn't put money into pockets with that property right now, and that is the crucial issue.

Your right from the perspective of a "what will put the most money in Activision/Blizzard's pockets in the short term" attitude, but wrong in an absolute sense of what will make more money in the long run (perhaps turning into a multi-generational franchise) and be good for the IP itself.

WoW has already made a profit as I mentioned, and a huge one. Blizzard already has other products on the market making them a ton of money. It has another MMORPG in development as I'm typing this. It's all about making a cash grab right now.

I'm really not following you. How is wanting to improve the overall quality of your game to bring an entirely new audience into the fold not an improvement for the IP as a whole?

Yeah, Algalon could have called the Titans in to unmake Azeroth. So then shouldn't he have been the final boss of WotLK, not Arthas?

If you leave side bosses out of it, there's a pretty linear progression in terms of storyline power regarding main villains. Nefarian/Kelthuzad -> Illidan -> Arthas -> Deathwing.

For all intents and purposes, Cataclysm is WoW 2.

lomylithruldor:

Therumancer:
The thing is though that Arthas is basically the primal spirit of death, which is why there must always be a Lich King.

Not really. He's just a dude that fused with a puppet of the Legion that rebelled that happened to have the power to make ghouls and ghosts and got worshipped for it. It's more like a powerful necromancer than anything else. There must be a lich king because you don't want a zombie apocalypse. It's like in the cold was, if a president dies, the nukes then have a twisted free will. You just don't want them loose.

This is the best analogy. Thanks for putting a smile on my face :)

Actually I think that's a pretty poor analogy to the whole thing. A better analogy to The Liche King would be death's gatekeeper, or perhaps a deity like Hel or Hades. Zombie Apogolypse goes a bit beyond what would happen if he didn't exist, it would be the primal forces of the universe unraveling.

Now yes, Arthas being chosen for this role is a bit wonky, as what he did with it, but the whole problem is that he's not just some guy which is why it took such a major production and the convergence of numerous divine-level and above entities acting in succession to engineer his downfall. This is pretty much what the game and a lot of the quests are about.

I mean I understand how you want to view things, especially seeing as it plays into what you apparently want to see for World Of Warcraft... more expansions irregardless of anything, but that analogy for defining Arthas isn't really adequete.

Deathwing does not follow a logical progression of power at this point, he's on a lower tier of power than beings that have already been confronted. Not something worthy of the 80-85 bracket.

Also this is not "World Of Warcraft 2" or anything close to it really. It's more similar to an event run by an RPG company to sell books covering areas that were already covered. Same game, same engine.

A proper World Of Warcraft 2 would involve a total relaunch of the game, total character and zone wipage, a rehaul and rebalancing of the entire class and race system, and updated technology and graphics. With the entire game starting over again from level 1 for everyone, you might see Deathwing sitting where Ragnaros was for the basic product. I do understand that this is similar to how thing are with Cataclysm, but seeing as the game structure, progression, and most importantly character levels are all still intact it doesn't work too well. It's sort of like trying to say that Acerak is somehow a greater threat and more powerful being than Iuz. A group that already took Iuz down should have no problem with Acerak power level wise. (ultra nerdism... referance to Greyhawk).

Don't get me wrong, I understand the money reasons for this. If I was in Blizzard's shoes, especially with Bobby Kotick as my boss I'd be tempted to run the cash grab too as opposed to doing right by the properties.

As someone pointed out there are 12 million subscribers. That's a massive potential cash influx. To turn your back on the huge wads of cash you can make from that right now, even with the promise of making even more money a decade later, is not something many people are going to do.

Also, try and understand where I'm coming from here. World Of Warcraft is a great game, and the whole "Warcraft" universe is a great intellectual property. However throughout history there have been many other great universes and characters in fandom, and a lot of those had their potential squandered by the people controlling the IP simply overdoing it and pushing things to the absolute limit, until they literally destroyed both their IP and fan base. What could have been an ongoing, multi-generational property wound up being destroyed for fast cash. RPGs, Comics, movie and TV franchises, I'm sure we've all got our favorite stories.

Right now there are 12 million people screaming "more Warcraft", give them what they want right now, even doing a hack job, and there is plenty of money to be made. However as you do this kind of thing your going to slowly erode that fan base. Rather than eroding it to the point where nobody cares, it's probably better to stop when demand is high, and return later when you can really do justice to the franchise with a fresh perspective.

Blizzard isn't going to cancel Cataclysm, I have no illusions about that. Too much money has already been spent on this. But ask yourself, you defend the whole concept of Cataclysm and "Deathwing" as a final boss for it, and obviously don't agree with people like me here, but do you REALLY think it's going to stop here? When this succeeds don't you think that there will be ANOTHER supplement with them reaching for another boss that doesn't quite fit into the progression they set up? If say WoW drops to 10 million subscribers or whatever, do you think they won't just continue to sell to that 10 million due to the money being made?

I have no illusions of being able to stop the cycle (though I can always hope), but the point is that I think Warcraft deserves better than to be run into the ground. Rather it deserves to end on a high note, and be remembered fondly, rather than something that used to be good but was beaten to death by doing too much too fast.

Sorry dude, I have no desire to debate walls of text with someone who has the time to write them. But from what I'm reading in your other posts, you completely misunderstand Arthas'/the Lich King's role in the lore (there wasn't a Lich King before the Scourge was created by the Burning Legion, after all. He isn't a primal force of the universe, he's just a really powerful necromancer).

I just don't think that wanting to fix what desperately needs fixing in the game is "running it into the ground." Frankly, I think you're in the vast minority here.

Also, you seem to be continuing an argument you're having with someone else :P

Computer-Noob:

MorteSphere:
I don't think Blizzard is capable of being cheap. :V

With 12 million players around the world, thats a lot of bodies needed to manage a ton of servers. Not to mention maitenence, wages for said workers, etc.

I've always wondered what the monthly balance of blizzard tends to be. I have the feeling that its a lot less than those set on the idea that "Blizzard are greedy money hungry gluttons" seem to believe it is.

NONONONONO you dont understand is you have 12million people playing thats good, some MMOs have 500,000 some have 100,000 but they all pay the same for each person using the server, i think to keep a person playing for a whole month it costs them $0.12 per person a month.
How do you think free MMOs live? the cost of maintaining a server is low unless your renting one then i ask why not buy?

overall if you look at the cost of keeping the servers up i will say its
1.440.000 with the income of 180.000.000 per month

Personally I blame Tichondrius for everything that's happened to Azeroth. The Dreadlords just HAD to cause trouble and bring Sarganes then corrupt him.

On Topic: I've never seen Cataclysm as a cop-out the only thing that really bothers me about it is that the Talent Trees are more like Talent Shrubberies now. And the Worgen Female eyes creep me out O_o But I'm enjoying the new stuff in Cata mostly because it's not a new area so much as "Holy hell a big frickin dragon run!"

John Funk:

Sorry dude, I have no desire to debate walls of text with someone who has the time to write them. But from what I'm reading in your other posts, you completely misunderstand Arthas'/the Lich King's role in the lore (there wasn't a Lich King before the Scourge was created by the Burning Legion, after all. He isn't a primal force of the universe, he's just a really powerful necromancer).

I just don't think that wanting to fix what desperately needs fixing in the game is "running it into the ground." Frankly, I think you're in the vast minority here.

Also, you seem to be continuing an argument you're having with someone else :P

Your right about the length, and me getting confused due to all the message I got. Apologies.

As far as the Lore goes:

They are somewhat ambigious about whether The Lich King existed before The Burning Legion or not, all we know is that Arthas was sort of set up into defeating the last one. We also know that apparently without someone in that role, the forces of death will run mad and pretty much level creation.

It's important to note that Arthas was able to act as a global level threat on a level where there were numerous divine-class beings forced to join forces to confront him. You didn't just have a couple of Naaru or Dragon Lords teleport in and lay the smackdown on him because he was simply too powerful. He was creating minions to serve him which were roughly on the level of deities in their on right, and if you look at the levels and capabilities the stats even agree with me. Consider for example that Malygos, who pretty much *is* magic is considered to be a lesser being in the villain heirarchy, and other dragons of equal stature get involved in the final battles and are unable to confront him. You wind up having to save one of the big time green dragon lords before the Sindragosa fight for crying out loud.

Now, I do understand the hype behind Deathwing, but conceptually he's not all that. I mean think about it, he's being rated higher than an elder deity who simply by being temporarly released caused such a threat of cosmic repercussions that the overgods were pretty much ready to blow up the planet outright to deal with it.

We could argue a combination of lore and the game set up/plotlines back and forth, but if you think about it what I am saying DOES make sense. It would be like in Marvel argueing that The Kingpin Of Crime is a greater threat than Galactus, and defending game design where say in a marvel game they already run a plotline up to confronting Galactus and then desiring to continue things they create an expansion for higher levels that deals with The Kingpin and organized crime in New York where taking on Wilson Fisk is harder than the devourer of worlds. Maybe you can design it in a video game, but it's horrible writing, and at the point your considering things like that for new material it's probably a better idea to just let things die.

Also for the record I am not so much complaining about them fixing the game, so much as I am saying that they really should have ended "World Of Warcraft" with "the Lich King", and eventually redone things with a whole new "Warcraft 2" later where they could insert things like Deathwing into a logical boss lineup for the new time period. I see what Blizzard is doing as being akin to an author stretching a triology into a ten book series or whatever due to the money it was making and the following, and destroying the whole thing as a result, where if he just ended the storyline as planned, later he could perhaps do another one later, fully prepared, with market anticipation, without having to stretch things out.

As for whether I'm in a minority opinion, that's hard to say. There are a lot of people whining about World Of Warcraft out there, and like usual most of them tend to be ignored. A lot of them express the same sentiments. That said, part of my basic arguement is that just because there is a fanbase/support to keep things going for more chapters right now, does not mean it's the right choice for the franchise in the long run. As I was saying I think a "keep them wanting more" attitude would be a lot healthier here for the moment.

Cataclysm is coming out irregardless of what I think, I just think it was a bad move. Sort of like oh say "A Midsummer Night's Dream 2" or "Casablanca: Sam Plays It again!" would be a bad idea. Even though this will succeed, I fear it's going to fuel yet more expansion packs and eventually WoW will be degraded into nothing due to not backing off, giving it time, and doing it right.

Opinions vary, we'll have to agree to disagree (yet again) I'm sure.

Also apologies about the length (yet again), posts simply tend to grow on me when I have a lot to say. To be honest I type pretty fast, so they don't take me that long. I do however have a tendency to mangle the english language as a result, as I'm sure many people have noticed.

Blizzard's other, not-quite-so-Massive titles

Blizzard has titles that aren't as massive?

I wouldn't consider it lazy at all. They are doing a whole lot to the game literally from the ground up and that's not an easy task. I would call it a bit unimaginative since they are not doing something to completely blow my mind buts that is okay. Still not sure if I want to go back or not since wow has gotten pretty stagnant. I might resubscribe if a friend those but not on my own.

As a side note does anyone know if or what blizzard is planning as a world even for pre-cata? Kind of like the zombie thing was for wrath.

I love it when people who have no idea what programming a video game is like call out laziness. Like all the fanboys pissed that FFVII isn't being remade or mad that nintendo is being "lazy" with remakes.

>> Anyone calling this a cash grab has a skewed idea of what constitutes a "grab", there's enough content in either of the factions new racial starting areas to EASILY justify the expansions $40 tag. I will gladly back this up if you'd like me to.

>> People complaining about lore are also the same people who openly bitch about and superficially hate on any form of entertainment that doesn't conform to what they consider canonical (I wasn't exactly thrilled with I Am Legend either, but it was a great movie on its own.) Sometimes taking liberties actually improves things, and you'd be amazed how many of the 128 bazillion people playing WoW really don't care who Arthas' college roommate was, or how he became Zachary the Vile, and how Deathwing makes no sense because Zachary wasn't at his Barmitzvah...seriously...WoW's continuity isn't that important...or at least it's not that important to the VAST majority of the people i come in contact with in-game. RetCon my ass, tell me when it diminishes the quality of the game, because it doesn't. It's just something else to bitch about to boost your sense of superiority.

>> Almost every guildie or raidmember I've ever had idle conversations with, before Cataclysm was ever announced, about what we wished was in the game has had almost the exact same sentiment...and never seemed to stray from these few points.

- I wish there was a reason to run old content, I miss older raids, and the old dungeons.
- I wish they'd bring crowd control and real group coordination back into the game.
- I wish I could use my flying mount in Kal/EK.
- I wish there was a reason to go back the old world, I miss it.
- I wish there was some sort of guild progress/leveling.

Lo and behold, they pretty much nail EVERYTHING (some to a lesser/greater degree) we've been wanting in an expansion, and people gotta come out of the woodwork to hate.

fu3lman:
>> Anyone calling this a cash grab has a skewed idea of what constitutes a "grab", there's enough content in either of the factions new racial starting areas to EASILY justify the expansions $40 tag. I will gladly back this up if you'd like me to.

>> People complaining about lore are also the same people who openly bitch about and superficially hate on any form of entertainment that doesn't conform to what they consider canonical (I wasn't exactly thrilled with I Am Legend either, but it was a great movie on its own.) Sometimes taking liberties actually improves things, and you'd be amazed how many of the 128 bazillion people playing WoW really don't care who Arthas' college roommate was, or how he became Zachary the Vile, and how Deathwing makes no sense because Zachary wasn't at his Barmitzvah...seriously...WoW's continuity isn't that important...or at least it's not that important to the VAST majority of the people i come in contact with in-game. RetCon my ass, tell me when it diminishes the quality of the game, because it doesn't. It's just something else to bitch about to boost your sense of superiority.

>> Almost every guildie or raidmember I've ever had idle conversations with, before Cataclysm was ever announced, about what we wished was in the game has had almost the exact same sentiment...and never seemed to stray from these few points.

- I wish there was a reason to run old content, I miss older raids, and the old dungeons.
- I wish they'd bring crowd control and real group coordination back into the game.
- I wish I could use my flying mount in Kal/EK.
- I wish there was a reason to go back the old world, I miss it.
- I wish there was some sort of guild progress/leveling.

Lo and behold, they pretty much nail EVERYTHING (some to a lesser/greater degree) we've been wanting in an expansion, and people gotta come out of the woodwork to hate.

/agree
/agree
/agree

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