EFF Calls Sony's Lawsuit Against PS3 Hackers "Dangerous"

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JDKJ:
I believe that under Sony's EULA terms (and I suspect the other Big Two), reverse engineering is indeed prohibited. As I recall, they mention "reverse engineering" by that exact terminology in prohibiting it. It may or may not be under the DCMA. It depends on what objective is sought to be attained by the reverse engineering.

Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean it's legally binding. The only thing Sony has a LEGAL right to control after point of sale is the network and support. They don't own the hardware once they sell it to you.

Andy Powell:

Garak73:
Why do YOU want to rent game consoles to consumers for $300 - $600? If that's the deal then I don't give a damn if they don't make games, I won't rent the console to play them.

Wait.. What? That makes no sense at all. Are you saying you would rather own a console with NO software support whatsoever, than to allow the manufacturer to moderate a controlled experience for everyone? What's the point in that? If that's your attitude then why not just remain a PC/Linux user? Why even bother with the console experience at all when a Linux PC can give you your purely user-driven open source environment?

I am saying that when you buy a product it is yours and you can do with it what you see fit within the bounds of the law. Once Sony sold it to you, they lost control.

I am saying that if we bend consumer right for your precious trophies, then we may as well bend consumer rights for everything. Maybe Sony doesn't think you should watch porn on your Sony TV. Maybe Dell doesn't want you to change the video card unless you pay them to do it.

Consumers have bent over backwards to give special treatment to the software industry and it's about time that we stop. Buggy, unfinished software and poorly designed, fragile hardware but consumers put up with it. We wouldn't put it with it from any other industry.

It seems clear to me that if consumers don't put a stop to it, the software industry will take every consumer right we have, in the name of piracy or used sales or anything else they can pull out of their asses!

In short, your fuckin' trophies aren't worth more than my consumer rights.

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:
I believe that under Sony's EULA terms (and I suspect the other Big Two), reverse engineering is indeed prohibited. As I recall, they mention "reverse engineering" by that exact terminology in prohibiting it. It may or may not be under the DCMA. It depends on what objective is sought to be attained by the reverse engineering.

Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean it's legally binding. The only thing Sony has a LEGAL right to control after point of sale is the network and support. They don't own the hardware once they sell it to you.

If you agreed to the EULA terms and don't have a good basis in law to avoid them, I'd think you are most certainly stuck with them. And you keep saying "hardware" as if a console isn't more software than anything else. That's the copyrighted part and the part that hasn't been sold outright. It's been licensed.

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:
I believe that under Sony's EULA terms (and I suspect the other Big Two), reverse engineering is indeed prohibited. As I recall, they mention "reverse engineering" by that exact terminology in prohibiting it. It may or may not be under the DCMA. It depends on what objective is sought to be attained by the reverse engineering.

Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean it's legally binding. The only thing Sony has a LEGAL right to control after point of sale is the network and support. They don't own the hardware once they sell it to you.

If you agreed to the EULA terms and don't have a good basis in law to avoid them, I'd think you are most certainly stuck with them. And you keep saying "hardware" as if a console isn't more software than anything else. That's the copyrighted part and the part that hasn't been sold outright. It's been licensed.

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

Just because it's in the EULA doesn't mean it's legally binding. The only thing Sony has a LEGAL right to control after point of sale is the network and support. They don't own the hardware once they sell it to you.

If you agreed to the EULA terms and don't have a good basis in law to avoid them, I'd think you are most certainly stuck with them. And you keep saying "hardware" as if a console isn't more software than anything else. That's the copyrighted part and the part that hasn't been sold outright. It's been licensed.

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

And I'm bright enough to know that the terms of service say, in effect, no software modification whatsoever" and that Sony is alleging that a modification sis occur.

I applaud the hackers who broke the PS3's security. I'll never need to make use of their work, but as a consumer it's a pleasure to see someone sticking up the middle finger at Sony. They've pulled so much crap on their customers over the years that they are on my "Never Buy" list along with Ubisoft.
I hope this case makes it to court and I hope Sony lose badly.

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

If you agreed to the EULA terms and don't have a good basis in law to avoid them, I'd think you are most certainly stuck with them. And you keep saying "hardware" as if a console isn't more software than anything else. That's the copyrighted part and the part that hasn't been sold outright. It's been licensed.

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

EULA is for warranty and PSN online play. Not for buying the hardware as-is. Otherwise it would be illegal to sell it. You have bought the spoon Sony is feeding. The law just isn't so. There is no such thing as a legally binding, implicit hidden contract. You bought a box with a PS3 for cash without signing a thing. You can smash it with a hammer, you can watch blu-ray, or you could rip it open and see how it works. All legally.

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

If you agreed to the EULA terms and don't have a good basis in law to avoid them, I'd think you are most certainly stuck with them. And you keep saying "hardware" as if a console isn't more software than anything else. That's the copyrighted part and the part that hasn't been sold outright. It's been licensed.

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

I don't remember ever having to view an EULA for the 360 or the Wii. Even if they had them, they aren't legally binding.

Well if the hackers win, we lose. I don't care what you guys think you have the right to do anything you want.

You say: "Think of the consumers!"

Well you know what? ITS THE CONSUMERS F'kn FAULT!

You say: "We should be able to hack it all we want!"

Alright, so now games will be pirated, hacked, and make a lot of consumers and developers really pissed off.

Like someone posted with the trophies hack. Whats the point of trophies now, people will simply be able to hack them and get them without achiveing them normally. You will go into matches of your favorite game and then lose to someone who hacks the game.

Developers will continue to make new securtity to stop pirates, which will punish players aswell. But you know what, those pirates, are players aswell, meaning consumers are causing the problem.

If companies like Sony sit down and let them hack, the Video game industy, will once more continue to die, by the hands of the Consumers.

Garak73:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

I don't remember ever having to view an EULA for the 360 or the Wii. Even if they had them, they aren't legally binding.

This, my second thought got snipped somehow. EULA's can say that you offer up your first-born child to the company. They can literally contain anything at all. That doesn't make it a legal contract.

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

One, you don't agree to anything just by buying the hardware. And if you paid attention, what they did is hack the hardware to allow their software to run. They didn't hack Sony code, they didn't steal anything. They broke a hardware lock on the software (in the form of an encryption chip). I don't think you understand what they did, you just hear "broke the protection" as if they are spoofing some software monitor like Punkbuster. No, they just opened up root access, and not once did that require agreeing to an EULA. The PSN requires one to USE it, but we aren't talking about the PSN.

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

EULA is for warranty and PSN online play. Not for buying the hardware as-is. Otherwise it would be illegal to sell it. You have bought the spoon Sony is feeding. The law just isn't so. There is no such thing as a legally binding, implicit hidden contract. You bought a box with a PS3 for cash without signing a thing. You can smash it with a hammer, you can watch blu-ray, or you could rip it open and see how it works. All legally.

A EULA is not a warranty. The acronym stands for "END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT." The EULA governs the licensed software in the console. And how is the EULA implicit or hidden? Isn't it brought conspicuously to the end user's attention and their agreement sought the first time they try to make use of the console and agreement required in order to use it?

Korten12:
Well if the hackers win, we lose. I don't care what you guys think you have the right to do anything you want.

You say: "Think of the consumers!"

Well you know what? ITS THE CONSUMERS F'kn FAULT!

You say: "We should be able to hack it all we want!"

Alright, so now games will be pirated, hacked, and make a lot of consumers and developers really pissed off.

Like someone posted with the trophies hack. Whats the point of trophies now, people will simply be able to hack them and get them without achiveing them normally. You will go into matches of your favorite game and then lose to someone who hacks the game.

Developers will continue to make new securtity to stop pirates, which will punish players aswell. But you know what, those pirates, are players aswell, meaning consumers are causing the problem.

If companies like Sony sit down and let them hack, the Video game industy, will once more continue to die, by the hands of the Consumers.

Last I checked the XBOX is selling just fine. And the wii. And their games too. Both are cracked wide open for years. Sony advertised themselves the ability to run Linux, and then they took it away, because they could apparently. They lost a lawsuit for that and had to settle. Stop the apocalyptic sob stories because anyone who follows this stuff knows it isn't true. It is insulting to post things you don't know as if you do.

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

I could be wrong, but don't all Big Three consoles in some way or another call a EULA to the attention of the end user and require that they agree to the terms thereof before use of the console can be had? Or they somehow state that use of the console constitutes implied agreement to the EULA terms? I was under the impression that all consoles come with a EULA that must be agreed to as a precondition of use. No?

EULA is for warranty and PSN online play. Not for buying the hardware as-is. Otherwise it would be illegal to sell it. You have bought the spoon Sony is feeding. The law just isn't so. There is no such thing as a legally binding, implicit hidden contract. You bought a box with a PS3 for cash without signing a thing. You can smash it with a hammer, you can watch blu-ray, or you could rip it open and see how it works. All legally.

A EULA is not a warranty. The acronym stands for "END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT." The EULA governs the licensed software in the console. And how is the EULA implicit or hidden? Isn't it brought conspicuously to the end user's attention and their agreement sought the first time they try to make use of the console and agreement required in order to use it?

Do a hard reset on a PS3, or buy a new one from the store with cash. Do you have to agree to anything to turn it on? Nope. Breech of contract from the end user absolves Sony's agreement to provide access to the PSN and warranty. It is NOT a criminal offense of the end user.

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:

EULA is for warranty and PSN online play. Not for buying the hardware as-is. Otherwise it would be illegal to sell it. You have bought the spoon Sony is feeding. The law just isn't so. There is no such thing as a legally binding, implicit hidden contract. You bought a box with a PS3 for cash without signing a thing. You can smash it with a hammer, you can watch blu-ray, or you could rip it open and see how it works. All legally.

A EULA is not a warranty. The acronym stands for "END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT." The EULA governs the licensed software in the console. And how is the EULA implicit or hidden? Isn't it brought conspicuously to the end user's attention and their agreement sought the first time they try to make use of the console and agreement required in order to use it?

Do a hard reset on a PS3, or buy a new one from the store with cash. Do you have to agree to anything to turn it on? Nope. Breech of contract from the end user absolves Sony's agreement to provide access to the PSN and warranty. It is NOT a criminal offense of the end user.

For you edification, the following is the PS3's EULA which I suspect you'll find in the box that your brand new, cash-paid-for PS3 comes in:

SYSTEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT (Version 1.4) FOR THE PlayStation®3 SYSTEM

December 10, 2009

PLEASE READ THIS SYSTEM SOFTWARE LICENSE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS.

ACCESS TO OR USE OF THE SYSTEM SOFTWARE IN THE SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT INC. ("SCE")'S PlayStation®3 COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM UNIT ("PS3™ system") IS EXPRESSLY CONDITIONED UPON ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.

This Agreement is a contract with SCE. This Agreement applies to any system software or firmware included in the PS3™ system, and any patches, updates, upgrades, or new versions of the system software or firmware provided to or made available for your PS3™ system through any SCE service or online network, SCE website or PS3™ system game disc (software is collectively, "System Software").

1. LICENSE GRANT

Subject to the terms and conditions of this Agreement, all System Software is licensed to users solely for personal, non-commercial use on the PS3™ system in the country in which the PS3™ system was designed by SCE to operate. To the extent permitted by applicable law, your rights to use or access the current version of the System Software will cease upon installation of a newer version of the System Software onto your PS3™ system, whether such installation occurs through manual or automatic download by SCE through SCE's online network, or otherwise. SCE does not grant any license to System Software obtained by users in any manner other than through SCE's authorized distribution methods. Your use or access to open source software or freeware included with the System Software is subject to additional terms and conditions set forth in the instruction manual or documentation for the PS3™ system or at http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html. Such additional terms are hereby incorporated by reference. You do not have any ownership rights or interests in the System Software. All intellectual property rights therein belong to SCE and its licensors, and all use or access to such System Software shall be subject to the terms of this Agreement and all applicable copyright and intellectual property laws. Except as expressly granted in this Agreement, SCE and its licensors reserve all rights, interests and remedies.

2. RESTRICTIONS

You may not lease, rent, sublicense, publish, modify, adapt, or translate any portion of the System Software. To the fullest extent permitted by law, you may not reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble any portion of the System Software, or create any derivative works, or otherwise attempt to create System Software source code from its object code. You may not (i) use any unauthorized, illegal, counterfeit, or modified hardware or software in connection with the System Software, including use of tools to bypass, disable, or circumvent any encryption, security, or authentication mechanism for the PS3™ system; (ii) violate any laws, regulations or statutes, or rights of SCE, its affiliated companies, or third parties in connection with your access to or use of the System Software, including the access, use, or distribution of any software or hardware that you know or should have known to be infringing or pirated; (iii) use any hardware or software to cause the System Software to accept or use unauthorized, illegal, or pirated software or hardware; (iv) obtain the System Software in any manner other than through SCE's authorized distribution methods; or (v) exploit the System Software in any manner other than to use it in your PS3™ system in accordance with the accompanying documentation and with authorized software or hardware, including use of the System Software to design, develop, update, or distribute unauthorized software or hardware for use in connection with the PS3™ system for any reason. Without limiting the scope of SCE's remedies, any violation of these restrictions will void the PS3™ system's warranty and affect your ability to obtain warranty services and repair services from SCE or its affiliated companies.

3. SERVICES AND UPDATES

From time to time, SCE may provide updates, upgrades or services to your PS3™ system to ensure it is functioning properly in accordance with SCE guidelines or provide you with new offerings. Some services may be provided automatically without notice when you are online, and others may be available to you through SCE's online network or authorized channels. Without limitation, services may include the provision of the latest update or download of new release that may include security patches, new technology or revised settings and features which may prevent access to unauthorized or pirated content, or use of unauthorized hardware or software in connection with the PS3™ system. Additionally, you may not be able to view your own content if it includes or displays content that is protected by authentication technology. Some services may change your current settings, cause a loss of data or content, or cause some loss of functionality. It is recommended that you regularly back up any data on the hard disk that is of a type that can be backed up. Other services or content may be made available to you by third parties who may require you to accept their terms and conditions and privacy policy ("Third Party Agreement"). SCE may refer to or provide you with links to websites that third parties independently operate or maintain ("Linked Sites"). SCE and its affiliated companies do not control or direct Linked Sites, nor do SCE and its affiliated companies monitor, approve, endorse, warrant or sponsor any information, conclusions, recommendations, advertisement, products, services or content described on Linked Sites. You acknowledge and agree that SCE and its affiliated companies have no liability to you for the information on the Linked Sites. Your reliance on any such information is at your own risk, and you assume all responsibilities and consequences resulting from your reliance. Please see your user's manual for information on controlling access to Linked Sites via PS3™ system's parental control. Notwithstanding any provision of any terms and conditions, in the event of any conflict between this Agreement and the Third Party Agreement, this Agreement shall control as between you and SCE.

4. COLLECTION OF INFORMATION/ AUTHENTICATION

SCE may retrieve information about your hardware and software for authentication, copy protection, account blocking, system monitoring/diagnostics, rules enforcement, game management, marketing purposes, tracking user behavior and other purposes. The information collected is not your personally identifying information. SCE may use DNAS (Dynamic Network Authentication System), a proprietary system designed to authenticate game titles and the PS3™ system when you connect the PS3™ system to a network, to collect this information. Any unauthorized transfer, exhibition, export, import or transmission of programs and devices circumventing DNAS may be prohibited by law. SCE reserves the right to use any other authentication or security system, or method in connection with the PS3™ system. You can find more information on how SCE or its affiliated companies may use the collected information by referring to the privacy policy on the SCE company's website for your territory. The applicable privacy policy applies to your use of the PS3™ system.

5. INTERNET FEATURES

Use of any feature that requires access to internet connection, including the PS3™ system's internet browser ("Internet Features") is at your own risk. Internet Features may require wireless LAN access which may NOT be available at your location, free of charge, or free from interruption or disconnections. See your wireless LAN provider for details. Internet Features may NOT support all wireless LAN access connection points or Web sites. Browsing websites, or accessing any of the content may result in viruses, loss or corruption of data, or other problems. You must comply with all applicable laws and regulations. See other terms and conditions of use in the user's manuals. You are responsible for all fees in connection with access to or use of the internet.

6. WARRANTY DISCLAIMER AND LIMITATION OF LIABILITY

The System Software and the contents, programs, services and websites on or provided through the System Software, including Internet Features and information on Linked Sites are provided "AS IS". SCE and its affiliated companies expressly disclaim any implied warranty of merchantability, warranty of fitness for a particular purpose and warranty of non-infringement. SCE AND ITS AFFILIATED COMPANIES EXCLUDE ALL LIABILITY FOR ANY LOSS OF DATA, LOSS OF PROFIT, OR ANY OTHER LOSS OR DAMAGE SUFFERED BY YOU OR ANY THIRD PARTY, WHETHER DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, OR CONSEQUENTIAL HOWEVER ARISING, AS A RESULT OF ACCESSING TO OR USING THE SYSTEM SOFTWARE OR ANY OF THE CONTENTS, PROGRAMS, FEATURES, SERVICES OR INFORMATION ON OR PROVIDED THROUGH THE SYSTEM SOFTWARE. SO LONG AS THIS PROVISION IS ENFORCEABLE IN YOUR JURISDICTION, THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS, EXCLUSIONS AND DISCLAIMERS SHALL APPLY TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, EVEN IF ANY REMEDY FAILS OF ITS ESSENTIAL PURPOSE.

7. TERMINATION

If SCE determines that you have violated the terms of this Agreement, SCE may take all actions to protect its interests, including denial of any services such as warranty services and repair services provided for your PS3™ system and termination of your access to PlayStation®Network, implementation of upgrades or devices intended to discontinue unauthorized use, or reliance on any other remedial efforts as reasonably necessary to prevent the use of a modified PS3™ system, or any pirated material or equipment. SCE and its licensors reserve the right to bring legal action in the event of a violation of this Agreement. SCE reserves the right to participate in any government or private legal action or investigation relating to your conduct.

8. EXPORT CONTROL

The PS3™ system may contain technology that is subject to certain restrictions under the export control laws and regulations of the United States, including but not limited to the Export Administration Regulations, and the embargo and sanctions regimes of the U.S. Department of Treasury, Office of Foreign Asset Controls. As such, the PS3™ system may not be exported or re-exported to persons and entities prohibited by such laws and regulations.

9. GENERAL LEGAL

By using or accessing the System Software, you agree to be bound by all current terms of this Agreement. To access a printable, current copy of this Agreement, go to http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ on your personal computer. SCE, at its sole discretion, may modify the terms of this Agreement at any time, including any terms in the PS3™ system documentation or manual, or at http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-license/index.html. Please check back on this website from time to time for changes to this Agreement. Your continued access to or use of the System Software will signify your acceptance of any changes to this Agreement. In the event of any conflict between this Agreement and the Terms of Service and User Agreement for SCE's online network, the terms of this Agreement shall control the use of or access to, the System Software.

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©2009 Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. All rights reserved

Source: http://www.scei.co.jp/ps3-eula/ps3_eula_en.html

Korten12:
Well if the hackers win, we lose. I don't care what you guys think you have the right to do anything you want.

You say: "Think of the consumers!"

Well you know what? ITS THE CONSUMERS F'kn FAULT!

You say: "We should be able to hack it all we want!"

Alright, so now games will be pirated, hacked, and make a lot of consumers and developers really pissed off.

Like someone posted with the trophies hack. Whats the point of trophies now, people will simply be able to hack them and get them without achiveing them normally. You will go into matches of your favorite game and then lose to someone who hacks the game.

Developers will continue to make new securtity to stop pirates, which will punish players aswell. But you know what, those pirates, are players aswell, meaning consumers are causing the problem.

If companies like Sony sit down and let them hack, the Video game industy, will once more continue to die, by the hands of the Consumers.

The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Did Sony throw the first punch by removing Linux support?

Thing is, when billion dollar corporations start stepping on consumer toes, it's ok with many people here. When consumers step on the toes of billion dollar corporations, it's wrong.

Things are backwards here. Is there any consumer right that you are interested in keeping for consumers or do you really believe the billion dollar corporations know best?

I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

Garak73:
The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Did Sony throw the first punch by removing Linux support?

Thing is, when billion dollar corporations start stepping on consumer toes, it's ok with many people here. When consumers step on the toes of billion dollar corporations, it's wrong.

Things are backwards here. Is there any consumer right that you are interested in keeping for consumers or do you really believe the billion dollar corporations know best?

But wait, what would happen if that billino dollar corporations suddenly decided they didn't want to deal with piracy anymore and quit video games?

What you rather be able to modify your console but have no more games being made?

Honestly, lots of time, I say: "Screw consumers." Because of us, DRMs were created. Because of US, not them, US.

icame:
Screw off EFF. I like my developers having money.

And since the only way for that to happen is crippling our rights....

Korten12:

Garak73:
The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Did Sony throw the first punch by removing Linux support?

Thing is, when billion dollar corporations start stepping on consumer toes, it's ok with many people here. When consumers step on the toes of billion dollar corporations, it's wrong.

Things are backwards here. Is there any consumer right that you are interested in keeping for consumers or do you really believe the billion dollar corporations know best?

But wait, what would happen if that billino dollar corporations suddenly decided they didn't want to deal with piracy anymore and quit video games?

What you rather be able to modify your console but have no more games being made?

Honestly, lots of time, I say: "Screw consumers." Because of us, DRMs were created. Because of US, not them, US.

DRM became mainstream when the courts ruled it was not illegal to make a copy of a record or tape you alread bought onto a VCR, DVD, or CD. Since then companies have been trying to make legal management of what you already bought harder than buying a second copy because of the unnecessary junk "protecting" it. Itunes went DRM free due to consumer pressure and Apple still sells more than anyone else. Because, as much as I hate the company, cater to their consumers first and foremost.

Firestorm65:
I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required. It says (in all-caps):

ACCESS TO OR USE OF THE SYSTEM SOFTWARE IN THE SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT INC. ("SCE")'S PlayStation®3 COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT SYSTEM UNIT ("PS3™ system") IS EXPRESSLY CONDITIONED UPON ACCEPTANCE OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

Korten12:

Garak73:
The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Did Sony throw the first punch by removing Linux support?

Thing is, when billion dollar corporations start stepping on consumer toes, it's ok with many people here. When consumers step on the toes of billion dollar corporations, it's wrong.

Things are backwards here. Is there any consumer right that you are interested in keeping for consumers or do you really believe the billion dollar corporations know best?

But wait, what would happen if that billino dollar corporations suddenly decided they didn't want to deal with piracy anymore and quit video games?

What you rather be able to modify your console but have no more games being made?

Honestly, lots of time, I say: "Screw consumers." Because of us, DRMs were created. Because of US, not them, US.

If Wal Mart closes it's doors, KMart and Target are still here and others will come to replace Wal Mart. So Wal Mart would be hurting itself, no one else.

What kind of an addict are you? You wanna give away all OUR consumer rights because you fear that [insert game company] might stop making video games? They are in business to make money, they aren't going to start pouting and close their doors because if they did that they would make no money.

Call me crazy if you want, but i agree with Sony. Mainly because hackers ruin the gaming experiance for everyone and steal money from game developers who busted there ass to make the game. Seriously hackers, just because you suck at the games doesnt mean you have to ruin them for everyone.

SomethingAmazing:

Haelium:

icame:

For future reference, I don't like jailbreaking either for what it opens the doors to do.

We could apply that logic of "It allows people to do other stuff" to many other areas. For example: Should we ban people from modifying cars purely because they could plant a bomb in the car and use it for a suicide bomb?
Should we ban people from modifying computers because they could be used for illegal stuff?
Should we ban the use of proxies because people could use them to download child pornography and/or copyrighted material?
Should we ban the use of game mods because they could be used to train people to commit massacres?

The list goes on, most people will only hack the PS3 so that they can mess around with their own mods in single player.

1. Yes.
2. No, computers are much different.
3. Yes.
4. No, that's just a stretch.

Homebrew and jailbroke PS3s are more often used for piracy than not. Due to this fact, it is perfectly reasonable for Sony to rule against jailbreaking PS3s.

1. so home maintainence/upgrading should be illegal
2. yes, they have the ability to violate alot more peoples rights then anything else mentioned so far
3. so you should remove one of the most effective ways to prevent hackers from wrecking your shit?
4. mods are use of modified source code, a violation of intellectual property if anything.

basically, point i'm making is this is a crossroads here, but it is only a brick in a wall of possible future. Momentum of capitalism could still crush it even if it goes in the hackers favor or general disatisfaction from people due to stringent control of user options forcing them to go outside the legal avenues just so they can get the most out of something they paid a ridiculous amount for.

time will tell.. personally i hope sony and the hackers come to an agreement, perhaps with sony taking into account the hackers desires and integrating them to perhaps make hacking less appealing rather then just trying to squeeze every dollar from the consumer and the hacker getting uppity about it cause s/he's wiped out from buying the console alone that s/he can't afford the games. As well as it would make the potential hacker more invested in the console/whatever and so less likely to want to fuck it up as it reflects his needs.

but then again i dream of a day we all eat rainbows and shit butterflys so maybe i'm being overly optimistic

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:
I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

It's not legally binding.

Let me ask you this. That EULA was dated 2009. What happens when the user of a launch PS3 doesn't agree to the 2009 EULA? He can't return the console, it's well past it's return date (usually 90 days) and likely past it's warranty.

Garak73:

Korten12:

Garak73:
The chicken and the egg. Which came first?

Did Sony throw the first punch by removing Linux support?

Thing is, when billion dollar corporations start stepping on consumer toes, it's ok with many people here. When consumers step on the toes of billion dollar corporations, it's wrong.

Things are backwards here. Is there any consumer right that you are interested in keeping for consumers or do you really believe the billion dollar corporations know best?

But wait, what would happen if that billino dollar corporations suddenly decided they didn't want to deal with piracy anymore and quit video games?

What you rather be able to modify your console but have no more games being made?

Honestly, lots of time, I say: "Screw consumers." Because of us, DRMs were created. Because of US, not them, US.

If Wal Mart closes it's doors, KMart and Target are still here and others will come to replace Wal Mart. So Wal Mart would be hurting itself, no one else.

What kind of an addict are you? You wanna give away all OUR consumer rights because you fear that [insert game company] might stop making video games? They are in business to make money, they aren't going to start pouting and close their doors because if they did that they would make no money.

Addict, wow, going to insults now? I wish for lots of consumers rights, but their are limits. Just like how their are laws still in free nations.

Also to make money, do you think they make money when they get the game for free?

Its shocks me how people on this site, seem to not think piracy is a problem and that they should be able to do it.

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:
I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

I must return to the fact that EULA's are not, in fact, a legal contract unless upheld by the court. And the courts have ruled again and again that software control does NOT extend to hardware. Apple and MS and a thousand other companies wish it were so but it's not the law. However, if Sony can sue people into silence, it becomes law de facto despite being wrong.

Garak73:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:
I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

It's not legally binding.

Let me ask you this. That EULA was dated 2009. What happens when the user of a launch PS3 doesn't agree to the 2009 EULA? He can't return the console, it's well past it's return date (usually 90 days) and likely past it's warranty.

Why did he sit on it for 90 days if he knew he wasn't going to agree to the EULA terms? That makes no sense. If he isn't going to agree, it shouldn't take him three months to figure that out and then seek a refund or credit. I would think ninety minutes should be more than enough time to decide that you're not in agreement.

Korten12:

Garak73:

Korten12:

But wait, what would happen if that billino dollar corporations suddenly decided they didn't want to deal with piracy anymore and quit video games?

What you rather be able to modify your console but have no more games being made?

Honestly, lots of time, I say: "Screw consumers." Because of us, DRMs were created. Because of US, not them, US.

If Wal Mart closes it's doors, KMart and Target are still here and others will come to replace Wal Mart. So Wal Mart would be hurting itself, no one else.

What kind of an addict are you? You wanna give away all OUR consumer rights because you fear that [insert game company] might stop making video games? They are in business to make money, they aren't going to start pouting and close their doors because if they did that they would make no money.

Addict, wow, going to insults now? I wish for lots of consumers rights, but their are limits. Just like how their are laws still in free nations.

Also to make money, do you think they make money when they get the game for free?

Its shocks me how people on this site, seem to not think piracy is a problem and that they should be able to do it.

I wasn't insulting you. I was observing that you seem to fear that video games will stop being made so you are willing to give up consumer rights to prevent that. Don't worry, as long as there is money to be made (and the industry is making plenty) there will be games.

JDKJ:

Garak73:

JDKJ:

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

It's not legally binding.

Let me ask you this. That EULA was dated 2009. What happens when the user of a launch PS3 doesn't agree to the 2009 EULA? He can't return the console, it's well past it's return date (usually 90 days) and likely past it's warranty.

Why did he sit on it for 90 days if he knew he wasn't going to agree to the EULA terms? That makes no sense. If he isn't going to agree, it shouldn't take him three months to figure that out and then seek a refund or credit. I would think ninety minutes should be more than enough time to decide that you're not in agreement.

You're missing the point.

The PS3 is a launch model - it was bought in 2006
The EULA is dated 2009 - 3 years after he bought his PS3

If he does not agree with the 2009 EULA, what is his recourse? The PS3 is out of warranty at that point and he certainly can't return it to the store. So, what should someone do?

I concur with Sony in their feeling of the need to protect their own creations from hacking, but on the other hand, signing over our hardware doesn't really sound like a way to win any favors.

Firestorm65:

JDKJ:

Firestorm65:
I'm not going to quote to reply, but notice how there are a lot of "for personal use" and "to the limits of the law"? Also note termination voids warranty and PSN access, but is not, in of itself, a crime. They reserve the right to sue you if you agree to it, but you didn't sign this if you used the console offline. I know neither one of us wants to let it go, but don't you realize you are saying your right to give up something you are not required to is more important than people exercising the rights they do have. Furthermore, the people they are suing aren't even US citizens, despite filing the claim in the US.

You don't have to sign it. In fact, they don't request your signature. Did you not read the part that says your use of the software implies consent? Consent by use is well-recognized under U.S. law. No signature required.

You can sue someone in a U.S. court under U.S. law despite the fact that they aren't a a U.S. citizen. Happens every day, all day.

I must return to the fact that EULA's are not, in fact, a legal contract unless upheld by the court. And the courts have ruled again and again that software control does NOT extend to hardware. Apple and MS and a thousand other companies wish it were so but it's not the law. However, if Sony can sue people into silence, it becomes law de facto despite being wrong.

Can you cite me those cases that you claim don't uphold EULAs? Because my recent review of the relevant precedents suggests to me that EULAs are more likely upheld than not. The recent case of Vernor v. Autodesk comes to mind (a Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals case).

Garak73:
I am saying that if we bend consumer right for your precious trophies, then we may as well bend consumer rights for everything. Maybe Sony doesn't think you should watch porn on your Sony TV. Maybe Dell doesn't want you to change the video card unless you pay them to do it.

Consumers have bent over backwards to give special treatment to the software industry and it's about time that we stop. Buggy, unfinished software and poorly designed, fragile hardware but consumers put up with it. We wouldn't put it with it from any other industry.

It seems clear to me that if consumers don't put a stop to it, the software industry will take every consumer right we have, in the name of piracy or used sales or anything else they can pull out of their asses!

In short, your fuckin' trophies aren't worth more than my consumer rights.

Nobody held a gun to your head and told you to buy a PS3. You did so willingly, knowing exactly what it was and what it represented. You agreed to the EULA's. There's nobody hiding behind a curtain pretending that the PS3 was supposed to be this open source development environment. You bought it KNOWING that it was supposed to be a closed system. Going back to your motorcycle metaphor, that's like you buying a Harley then complaining that it's not making pancakes for you. Meanwhile everyone else just hops on and takes it on a road trip.

A note to all alarmists. The Wii, XBOX360, iPhone, android, and countless other platforms have all been opened up to piracy. That has not stopped any of them from being profitable. Only Sony claims the sky is falling and developers will leave forever if 1% of the people who pirate of the 1% of the people who use this information of the 1% of the people who use the system are now a lost sale, as if they would buy it in the first place. It certainly doesn't make the other .99% criminals for the act of the .01%.

I want my linux back, I had both consoles in my had and chose the PS3 for it's dual use. I am not nearly the only one. But even leaving that out, what right do any of you have to say what I am allowed to do with my own hardware for personal use that will never affect you?

Garak73:

JDKJ:

Garak73:

It's not legally binding.

Let me ask you this. That EULA was dated 2009. What happens when the user of a launch PS3 doesn't agree to the 2009 EULA? He can't return the console, it's well past it's return date (usually 90 days) and likely past it's warranty.

Why did he sit on it for 90 days if he knew he wasn't going to agree to the EULA terms? That makes no sense. If he isn't going to agree, it shouldn't take him three months to figure that out and then seek a refund or credit. I would think ninety minutes should be more than enough time to decide that you're not in agreement.

You're missing the point.

The PS3 is a launch model - it was bought in 2006
The EULA is dated 2009 - 3 years after he bought his PS3

If he does not agree with the 2009 EULA, what is his recourse? The PS3 is out of warranty at that point and he certainly can't return it to the store. So, what should someone do?

I'd imagine that the EULA in force during that time was dated more in keeping with the time. I suspect that Sony periodically revises and re-dates them. I wouldn't get hung up on a date, if I were you.

Andy Powell:

Garak73:
I am saying that if we bend consumer right for your precious trophies, then we may as well bend consumer rights for everything. Maybe Sony doesn't think you should watch porn on your Sony TV. Maybe Dell doesn't want you to change the video card unless you pay them to do it.

Consumers have bent over backwards to give special treatment to the software industry and it's about time that we stop. Buggy, unfinished software and poorly designed, fragile hardware but consumers put up with it. We wouldn't put it with it from any other industry.

It seems clear to me that if consumers don't put a stop to it, the software industry will take every consumer right we have, in the name of piracy or used sales or anything else they can pull out of their asses!

In short, your fuckin' trophies aren't worth more than my consumer rights.

Nobody held a gun to your head and told you to buy a PS3. You did so willingly, knowing exactly what it was and what it represented. You agreed to the EULA's. There's nobody hiding behind a curtain pretending that the PS3 was supposed to be this open source development environment. You bought it KNOWING that it was supposed to be a closed system. Going back to your motorcycle metaphor, that's like you buying a Harley then complaining that it's not making pancakes for you. Meanwhile everyone else just hops on and takes it on a road trip.

1) I didn't buy a PS3 but of the consoles I do have, I can take them apart and make toasters out of them if I wish.

2) EULA for a game console, never seen one.

3) I don't have a motorcycle metaphor.

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