UPDATE: Video of Females on Female Characters Panel

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Macgyvercas:

Silk_Sk:
You know I though this was going to be something else. Oh well.

I did too man. I dd too.

Count me in too! Now give me back 30 min of my life!

When I first started watching these videos, my mind was immediately drawn towards what the panel would have to say about Jack from Mass Effect 2. They didn't really cover her much apart from a brief "Good for you Jack, now go put on a shirt". But this got me thinking about how her character would work if she was male. From there I started wondering how the players perception would change when viewing a character who was half scared-little-boy, half psychopath instead of half scared-little-girl, half psychopath. Would the player be less likely to question the characters background if they were a young male mass murderer rather than a female one?

I then went to think about how, if you had a male Jack, he would interact with a female Shepard in the paragon romance option. The scene where Jack runs to Shepard in tears (up until it becomes sex):

Now that scene, if the genders were reversed would create an instant idea of female Shepard as a surrogate mother figure to the male Jack, especially if it remained a platonic relationship. That seems like a really interesting idea to me, and what's strange is that it comes about by carrying out male and female set roles to their logical conclusions, the female is the mother and the male is the destructive aggressor. Not that I'm complaining about the storyline as it is, it's my favourite romance subplot of any Bioware game.

I was just wondering what Susan (or anyone else) thought of this.

Manji187:
"All characters are hard to write" indeed...so how about genuinely trying ay, gaming industry?

In the case of female characters: if Bayonetta is lauded for advancing female character development (she accepts her sexuality...but doesn't need your approval)...then the road ahead is going to be a long one.

The problem I have with this point of view is that people have been making female characters for several millennia now. So to try to limit this notion to the history of gaming is a bit ridiculous. Even within the scope of gaming we've come quite far. Considering the first widely accepted female gaming character was a copypasta yellow blob with a bow tacked on top of it to suggest it's sudden change of gender.

Writing characters is a difficult process. Anyone who's tried to do it knows how hard it can be, exponentially more difficult when done on a time schedule. And these ideas are made much more difficult when applied to a medium that is fundamentally interactive and needs to hold the attention of it's audience more fervently then traditional media.

Frankly I don't think Bayonetta could possibly be as bad as someone like Snooki from Jersey Shore. And that's a real person...allegedly.

Wait a second here. Women don't like poorly written or developed characters either.

I'm not really shocked at hearing that.

this brought up some interesting points about characters and perceptions in general.

I think story development and characters are going to become more important and with the ability now to show subtle hints of emotion instead of having the characters just state how they feel. to quote the greatest robot of all "that makes me feel angry!" This was mentioned not to long ago in an article here on the escapist, focusing on the motion capture that was used for Enslaved and how most of Trips' emotions are shown rather than stated.

The name thing was interesting and I think it also a reflection of our society and the snap judgments people make . I have a gender neutral name (well it's certainly common for men) and I've found that by not indicating my gender is actually an advantage.

As for having every member of an RPG party be a possible love interest independent of the player characters gender choice....
I think it's a good idea but what would be better is if there was the flirtatious option and to have your character be Totally Shot Down if the other character just wasn't interested.
My first thought was of a female shepard trying to seduce ashley williams....can't really see Ash being ok with that....

Nocturnal Gentleman:

InevitableFate:
I disagree completely with the idea of the option to pursue romance with all characters in an RPG (comes up during the question half hour). In fact, I think it's important that there are some characters you can't do this with.

In the real world, sexuality is rarely all-embracing. People have different tastes, orientations, or occasionally no orientation at all and these attributes hugely affect a person's life. While you as the player should be able to shape that aspect of your character, when it comes to NPCs, which themselves all have pre-written backstories, giving the player the ability to command such an important aspect of their character, in my eyes, devalues them as a whole.

Not to mention real world romance can be a very long and rocky process. I'm honestly tired of romance in games that seem to have short time spans. Even if you do form a relationship from being together for work or travel those relationships don't tend to last long. Having true relationships just spring up so easily seems to cheapen the real thing. Maybe short term love blooms are common for a some but they're way too overrepresented. For most it's not that easy. It never was.

Just like my comment on writing different types of women the real problem with real vs fake is that there is barely variety between types of anything. From character traits, natural attraction, and relationships it's way too samey.

I don't have a huge issue with the "quick relationship" stuff because in almost all the games I've played that have an optional pursued relationship (counting things like Harvest Moon as not as optional) allow or force the option of not letting that relationship continue past the final boss (Dragon Age, Mass Effect, etc.) You can even argue some cases that the relationship isn't that fast. RPGs with mostly walking have you going all over the place, and anyone who's played Oregon Trail knows that much travel, without pausing to explore castles and caves, takes a while. Stuff like Mass Effect with starship travel still probably doesn't happen in a week and real life (not to mention movie) relationships have started in less than a month of knowing one another.

Sure you could argue cases where you can do the full range of conversations needed in one sitting by leaving rooms briefly and whatnot, but most games seem to wait til just before the final battle to see the effect, basically making the assumption of progressive wooing.

I agree that it's less real if games made absolutely everyone in your party an option to romance, though I'd argue that it would be more interesting to allow you to try and then, after building up your relationship to the point where you can try to take it down a "more than friends" path, let the NPC refute your advances because they're straight, gay, made of molten rock, etc. It let's you roleplay, while giving the NPC more character depth, and maybe one or two of those characters could have their minds changed by a suitably persistent and charming PC.

After watching the videos, my only question is how did I miss all the Enslaved hate?

If you're going outside of gaming to webcomics, I find Luna from Dominic Deegan to be a well written female character.

Good writing is hard. Good writing for someone of the opposite gender is even harder. I'm going to go back to an old pen & paper RPG called 7th Sea. I find it interesting that the best written book, both in general and for female characters, was written by the creator's wife.

Even with Kat's scars, she's not an overly ugly character.

Why limit the FFXIII hate to characters? I'm pretty sure that FFXIII can go to hell.

I'm glad that they didn't mention Lineage 2 and how bad that is. The female dwarves look like children.

About the study, adult games are for adults, and comic books aren't really mainstream enough for body image? I'm not really sure I know how to address that area.

InevitableFate:
I disagree completely with the idea of the option to pursue romance with all characters in an RPG (comes up during the question half hour). In fact, I think it's important that there are some characters you can't do this with.

In the real world, sexuality is rarely all-embracing. People have different tastes, orientations, or occasionally no orientation at all and these attributes hugely affect a person's life. While you as the player should be able to shape that aspect of your character, when it comes to NPCs, which themselves all have pre-written backstories, giving the player the ability to command such an important aspect of their character, in my eyes, devalues them as a whole.

For example, ME2 is mentioned as a specific example for where free romance should be used. Mordin however, is a Salarian. Salarians are an asexually orientated species, it actually says this in the codex entry. It would have made no sense at all for him to be a romance option.

In the end, my favourite characters from ME2 were Mordin, Samara and Legion. All 3 of which are non-romance (Slight question mark over Samara, but ultimatly all attempts are rebuffed by her, thank god). Somehow I doubt this is a coincidence (I am asexual myself, by the way). I think that, as a character, it makes little sense for Samara to find Shepard attractive. She's amongst the oldest Asari in the galaxy, long past her Maiden stage quite literally a matriarch, a mother.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that romance options are fine, but not if they don't make sense as part of that character. The game should be able to turn around and say, "Ok, you want to pursue the romance option with this same-gender NPC, but this NPC is heterosexual. So you can't. Tough luck." Forcing the NPC into a position that makes little sense based on their character backstory is even worse than them not having one at all.

You're absolutely right - it wouldn't be at all realistic. I do like having multiple options from a role-playing point of view, but not everyone is going to be ok hopping into bed with someone of the same gender, or a different species. I need to think on this more, to see if perhaps there's some middle ground to be had. I mean, on the one hand, it is a fantasy role playing situation, so you should be able to pursue it as you like. On the other hand, if we genuinely want fully realized characters, then they can't just be robots ready to hop in the sack so long as you tick the right check boxes. You raise excellent points for discussion.

Jakale:
I agree that it's less real if games made absolutely everyone in your party an option to romance, though I'd argue that it would be more interesting to allow you to try and then, after building up your relationship to the point where you can try to take it down a "more than friends" path, let the NPC refute your advances because they're straight, gay, made of molten rock, etc. It let's you roleplay, while giving the NPC more character depth, and maybe one or two of those characters could have their minds changed by a suitably persistent and charming PC.

It's not just that it makes it less "real", it makes the characters less varied if they're all gagging for some Shep (homoshep or heteroshep).

In Mass Effect 2, for instance, Samara was interesting because of the reason she wasn't a romance option (and she will shoot you down pretty fast).

I think there should be an option for a homosexual relationship for either gender, but every hole's a goal just means there are less points of difference between the characters.

Honestly, in regards to some of the opinions on Bayonetta, I was neither put off by the level of sexualization nor attracted to it. I actually found it fun just because it was just so absurdly over-the-top that it came off as intentionally humorous, perhaps even a spoof on sexuality in modern games in general.

I'm watching the section where they talk about Princess Peach, and I'm amazed that nobody remembers the Super Mario Adventure comics in Nintendo Power, wherein Princess Peach dresses up as Luigi and threatens to suicide-bomb the Koopas.

Yes, that happened. Check out Issue 7.

I want more of THAT princess peach.

*saw "Females on female," clicked link, was disappointed*

In all seriousness though, I think these gals put it perfectly. Sexy isn't sexist, girls don't have to be tough-and-cold to be well written, all that stuff.

I think the problem people had with enslaved isn't that it was a female character dominate over a male character it's that basicly all she did was hold a gun to his head and "do what i say or i'll kill you" does not make for a likeable character regardless of gender, especially when you're the one with the gun to your head.

No offense, go the girls talking sense, but I actually have to facepalm because making this panel was required.

Why can't people have common sense?
"Omg, boobs, SEXIST"
"Omg, personality not complete opposite of woman, SEXIST"

Despite how correct this panel is, I get a bit annoyed with a room full of people with brains patting eachother on the back.

Palademon:
No offense, go the girls talking sense, but I actually have to facepalm because making this panel was required.

Why can't people have common sense?
"Omg, boobs, SEXIST"
"Omg, personality not complete opposite of woman, SEXIST"

Despite how correct this panel is, I get a bit annoyed with a room full of people with brains patting eachother on the back.

You mean when one of them says something like:
"We just want well written and believable female characters!"
And then receives a massive round of applause?

Geo Da Sponge:

Palademon:
No offense, go the girls talking sense, but I actually have to facepalm because making this panel was required.

Why can't people have common sense?
"Omg, boobs, SEXIST"
"Omg, personality not complete opposite of woman, SEXIST"

Despite how correct this panel is, I get a bit annoyed with a room full of people with brains patting eachother on the back.

You mean when one of them says something like:
"We just want well written and believable female characters!"
And then receives a massive round of applause?

Yes, it feels like one of those female talk shows where there's constant applause for doing NOTHING.

Kecunk:
I think the problem people had with enslaved isn't that it was a female character dominate over a male character it's that basicly all she did was hold a gun to his head and "do what i say or i'll kill you" does not make for a likeable character regardless of gender, especially when you're the one with the gun to your head.

"Likability" is not the measure of whether a character is a well written character.

The most detestable bastard imaginable can be a well written character and, indeed, there are many examples where this is the case. Humbert Humbert in Lolita is a complete and utter shit, but he's a well written shit. Likewise the eternal complaints from Americans who have been made to read Catcher in the Rye in school and found it hard to read because of their deep personal animosity towards Holden Caulfield shows that Salinger wrote a pitch perfect antisocial little grot as the main character of his book.

I support this kind of a discussion but the problem I have is that nobody every really defined what "well developed" means. A few examples were thrown out and address briefly but there was never a very deep discussion of what traits or characteristics we really want. What is it we're searching for. It always strikes me as a "I'll know it when I see it" thing where we axiomatically say "this is good" and "this is bad." I understand that we want characters that don't sit on their ass and needs rescue and just form a mcGuffin but that's not enough to define a character. I watched the video and now sit here trying to synthesis this and use it develop better more fully realized ideas of what characters and good and bad. In my mind I'm tring to put together a game that would work to empathizes something positive or put together a story with the same goal but I feel no closer to my goal of being able to strip my own male biases and write good females (or males) then I was before. I still feel as if the whole concept of what makes characters good and well developed is just beyond my grasp and any attempt to try and write or design could still very well end up with me falling into the same stupid problem that things had before. This discussion reiterated a number of points that I have figured out and gave me a look at a few other ideas I hadn't considered before but I still feel like it was lacking a deep context. I expected to see something more in depth or more analytical then what it was. Maybe that's just my problem but I still feel like the ability to fully address and realize characters is beyond me. Maybe that's the problem, maybe sometimes we try and come up with something new and fail maybe the games industry is not overtly anti-feminist in its goals so much as dumb and scared. Trying to something new with gender relationship is a hit or miss thing and companies can't spend the time necessary to begin development to realize half way through that the idea just exploded. I don't know, but I do know that that trying to get a firm grasp on what makes characters good can be hard. We all strive for it but its not as easy as saying "make good characters, mkay" its a real struggle even with good intentions.

One thing I would have liked to ask them is about good ways to add frailty to women. They sort of talked about the Halo -to- Halo 2 thing with Cortana becoming more hot girl and less see-through using the sexy isn't bad mixed with new console pandering argument. When we got to Samus, they just said that the development was bad, but not quite why, though it seems like it boils to the fact that no one wants to be a whiny, overly dependent person, especially when everyone assumed she was strong willed and independent to start with.

The only non-fighting girl they talked about in a positive way was Yorda from Ico. Oddly enough Zelda and Peach got panned because they've gotten more personal power without getting station changes(we've seen them become more capable as people than their originals, but they've remained "the captured Princess").

So how do you make a good female who isn't an asskicking girl?

"For reasons I don't really know but should probably examine more, I always pursue the lesbian romantic interests!"

I seriously laughed at that, because for some reason I do the same. I even started getting annoyed when I couldn't romance the females I wanted to. I think it's mostly because it's such a new thing so it's more exciting to play a romance like that out.

It was a really awesome panel though, and I thoroughly enjoyed the videos. (And I was happy that so many shared my hatred for Vanille XD Her high-pitched laugh still haunts me.)

GloatingSwine:

Kecunk:
I think the problem people had with enslaved isn't that it was a female character dominate over a male character it's that basicly all she did was hold a gun to his head and "do what i say or i'll kill you" does not make for a likeable character regardless of gender, especially when you're the one with the gun to your head.

"Likability" is not the measure of whether a character is a well written character.

The most detestable bastard imaginable can be a well written character and, indeed, there are many examples where this is the case. Humbert Humbert in Lolita is a complete and utter shit, but he's a well written shit. Likewise the eternal complaints from Americans who have been made to read Catcher in the Rye in school and found it hard to read because of their deep personal animosity towards Holden Caulfield shows that Salinger wrote a pitch perfect antisocial little grot as the main character of his book.

you're right Likability is not the measure of whether a character is a well written character.

And i never once said she was a poorly written character i was merely offering my thoughts as to why so many people complained.

If you write a character that is a detestable bastard being well written isn't going to stop people from talking about how much of a bastard he is.

She lost me when she said that in this topic: "a lot of the wrong things get said" The only wrong thing that can be said is nothing. Words are merely expressions of thoughts, and you should never be afraid of thoughts that challenge your own, because that's the only way you grow.

i liked watching those vids. that was fun!

well its like cracked.com said...and i paraphrase here, but:
"...video games are still at B-level storytelling..."
that was from the article ...reasons its still not cool to admit you're a gamer
and its true, that the developers have to make something worthwhile, and thats one reason its kinda frowned upon, say, if you're a guy and youre out with this girl and you let slip the fact that youre a gamer..im sure she'd find you instantly less attractive..on average anyways, but either way, video games wont be appreciated until they help better us as human beings. and the way to do that is to teach us, help us see life more realistically, maybe even help us learn to cope with our problems by embracing these fictional stories that we can relate to.
thats my view, but still, that was a way fun chain of videos!!!!

Im surprised they didn't mention one of my biggest problems with female characters in for example Fallout 3 was that the women seemed to all want to jump into bed with you but the men didn't even look twice (except for Burke) what was that all about rofl. I love! the option to play as a female but at least make the characters respond to that. I can't see Jericho for example reacting the same way towards a guy as a woman *runs in fear*.

If I had been there I would have asked them what they thought about the armour issue. On the Elders scrolls facebook there is a discussion about female characters and sexy armour. Surprisingly the girls all say either that they want sexy outfits or they want something that is practical but feminised (like Dragon Age's leather armour). The guys are arguing that they want realistic practical armour. It's quite an interesting thing I think.

Jakale:
One thing I would have liked to ask them is about good ways to add frailty to women. They sort of talked about the Halo -to- Halo 2 thing with Cortana becoming more hot girl and less see-through using the sexy isn't bad mixed with new console pandering argument. When we got to Samus, they just said that the development was bad, but not quite why, though it seems like it boils to the fact that no one wants to be a whiny, overly dependent person, especially when everyone assumed she was strong willed and independent to start with.

The only non-fighting girl they talked about in a positive way was Yorda from Ico. Oddly enough Zelda and Peach got panned because they've gotten more personal power without getting station changes(we've seen them become more capable as people than their originals, but they've remained "the captured Princess").

So how do you make a good female who isn't an asskicking girl?

I think that their problem with Peach is that shes capable of looking after herself or at least appears so. Zelda is also capable in many of the games. They don't have the vulnerability of Yorda so she can actually carry off the helpless princess while Zelda and Peach just look like they are taking the p*ss

xXxJessicaxXx:

I think that their problem with Peach is that shes capable of looking after herself or at least appears so. Zelda is also capable in many of the games. They don't have the vulnerability of Yorda so she can actually carry off the helpless princess while Zelda and Peach just look like they are taking the p*ss

That's what I gathered too. It's why I mentioned those two got flack because their respective brand's popularity has given us more games with them and given them more power in the games that don't require them to be powerless. Peach more than Zelda since Zelda gets to use magic to help Link more than once.

Ah I see yes I love Princess Peach I think she is really cute but at the same time it annoys me that she acts so helpless. Zelda always comes across as being more intelligent than Link so why on earth can she not break out the castle/whatever herself?

Edit: It might be a nice change to see Zelda and Link working towards each other with Link getting more courage based puzzles and her getting Wisdom and Ganandorf trying to stop them through brute force I think that would fit nicely and make Zelda a bit more fitting to her character.

Jakale:

I agree that it's less real if games made absolutely everyone in your party an option to romance, though I'd argue that it would be more interesting to allow you to try and then, after building up your relationship to the point where you can try to take it down a "more than friends" path, let the NPC refute your advances because they're straight, gay, made of molten rock, etc. It let's you roleplay, while giving the NPC more character depth, and maybe one or two of those characters could have their minds changed by a suitably persistent and charming PC.

If they actually did that in any rpg/adventure game it would finally bring me one step closer to experiencing true immersion like everyone else talks about so much.

40 minutes left

Someone tell me if someone asks about the developing relationship between Mayu and Miku in Fatal frame 2? How the whole "sisterhood" thing comes into play

srsly, if no one asked that, someone will be beaten =-="

I agree with most of this. As a female gamer I am sick of being told I should be offended at various female characters because their...hot? So? There are allot of hot guys in games too is that sexist?
There is a lack of well written female characters but then as said there a lack of well written characters all round. A female character being sexy isn't a problem and while I don't like the over the top sexy outfits, where you look at and think how the hell dose that even stay on BUT that's more because I just don't like that OOT style in general. With the leather and the hair gel and the giant swords.
Sometimes I actually find it more "sexist" when I see people making such a big uproar over a female characters appearance. Like for example Miranda from mass effect 2. I will admit to having mixed feelings about this character, mostly due to the tits and ass shots (It's kinda akward for me when they do that and makes me feel alienated I gues) but I hear allot of people going on about her and how she completely over sexualised (well she is meant to be GE'ed), she is only there for sex appeal (which I find odd because she is actually one of the more plot relevant squad mates and most agree she is the most useful in battle on higher difficulties) and how she has this huge boob window (which again confuses me because she doesn't. Her pants are strangely moulded to her ass but her top isn't that bad. I wear tops that low.) and how she nothing but a whore and how dare she dress like that. To me that is sexist. I even heard the comment "she doesn't have that shy, girl next door thing like a real girl. She is just a slut. Bioware is sexist" WTF? Is a woman not allowed to be sexy and know it? Would her character be drastically improved if she wore a sack, thought she was ugly and was shy? It's not like she is even hitting on you or throwing herself at your feet if you're a male shep. In fact she is reluctant to even get in a relationship and is mostly business.

Also I was playing Tomb raider the other day (can't remember witch one) and my brother saw me and asked "why they hell are you playing that? There something I should know about?" (implying that I was lesbian) but I don't play the game to ogle at her ass I actually like the games and believe it or not I like playing as a strong sexy female. There is nothing wrong with that. I think Lara is actually a pretty good character depending on what game you play even if she is somewhat sueish.
That said I have never played bayonetta or even vaguely interested in it because I was completely put off by what she looks like and I had heard allot of bad things about it and how it was aimed at immature teen-age guys. Perhaps I should give it another look?

I also agree that not all female characters need to be strong and badass, you can a more "soft" female character who needs to be rescued and that's ok. You can have a female character who is strong but realises she is female and her own limitations (I may be a girl myself but honestly girls in RL are just not as strong physically as guys tend to be. We don't build up muscle the same. Sorry but its true), you can have a female character with a mix of different traits.
Not all girls are the same; you can't point to one particular female character and say yes this is what female characters should be like all the time. The 2D anti girl female character is just as bad as the 2D girly girl female character. Its kinda sad that this needs to be said at all.
Personally I would like to see some older scared style female characters (you get that with guys, probably because older scared guys still look hot. Hell depending on your taste it adds to sex appeal), a few Mama Bears because I think that would interesting and some more of the "normal" kinda characters because I prefer that and there is too much of the same in the game industry (that one goes for both male and female characters).

What I don't like is when the sex appeal is all the character is or all marketing focuses on, or if every girl in the entire game (not just one) are just weak pathetic things that only dose what the men tell them too.
I also have a particular hatred for the "innocent" girl sex object thing. You know, where they are meant to be all naive or young and there is nothing but boob, ass and wet T-shrt shots. It less about what they are wearing and more in how they are presented usually.

I also tend to hate it when I play a game and all the male cloths and armour look awesome and practical but the same outfit on a girl looks stupid. I would like to give my character pants please! I don't want a mini skirt. Ah well, I suspect that is largely a personal taste thing.

There is one of topic thing I disagree with. All characters being romancable and bi. NO! I don't think all characters should fall for you. To me this makes the characters all feel less real and more like dolls for you amusement. I don't like kirking and I don't think all characters should be bi. Sexuality is part of who a person is and part of who a character is.
Just to be clear I have no issue with SS romances and I wouldn't' have an issue with a strictly gay/lesbian character I just don't think they should all be bi so you can jump them.

Also on the Enslaved thing. I think the issue was more that...well putting a slave headband on the guy and forcing him to do as you say is kinda a dick move. I mean, given the situation I can see why she did and I would probably do that as well but that doesn't stop it from being a dick move.

DementedSheep:
well putting a slave headband on the guy and forcing him to do as you say is kinda a dick move. I mean given the situation I can see why she did and I would probably do that as well but that doesn't stop it from being a dick move.

I am a girl and I thought that when I heard about enslaved, I was like urgh :<

I think its the media sexualising game characters like Lara and Miranda that puts us off. Unfortunately I think Bayonetta has been a victim of that too. They are actually really good strong characters, although I personally find Miranda slightly irritating lol. We see these characters being promoted as sex objects and women say I don't think thats for me... when in reality it's actually a really fun game. I'm also going to risk the wrath and say I liked Lightning because she was a moody bitch something I have not seen a woman portrayed as before. The rest of the characters in that game made me want to destroy them with fire though.

xXxJessicaxXx:

DementedSheep:
well putting a slave headband on the guy and forcing him to do as you say is kinda a dick move. I mean given the situation I can see why she did and I would probably do that as well but that doesn't stop it from being a dick move.

I am a girl and I thought that when I heard about enslaved, I was like urgh :<

I think it's the media sexualising game characters like Lara and Miranda that puts us off. Unfortunately I think Bayonetta has been a victim of that too. They are actually really good strong characters, although I personally find Miranda slightly irritating lol. We see these characters being promoted as sex objects and women say I don't think thats for me... when in reality it's actually a really fun game. I'm also going to risk the wrath and say I liked Lightning because she was a moody bitch something I have not seen a woman portrayed as before. The rest of the characters in that game made me want to destroy them with fire though.

I actually find Miranda irritating too lol but that's because she a bit of a bitch not because I think bioware was being sexist when they designed her which is what allot of the hate I have seen is about. Never played FF13(it was 13 right?) so I can't comment on Lightning.

Yeah often it's the media and how something is first presented that puts me off. You can have great female characters that are sexy and sometimes unrealistic is just fun but if I look at a game and the first thing I see is provocative woman and that seems to be the focus for the marketing I'm not likely to buy it. It looks like it's aimed at men and its awkward. Which is exactly what happened when I saw Bayonetta and Tomb Raider tho I ended up playing Tomb Raider anyway because I like plat forming and puzzle games and later realised I actually liked Lara. If the game industry wants to interest more females I think they need to work on marketing and first impressions with how a character is portrayed.

Speaking about paternal motivations and situations with games the ever becoming go to sample Mass Effect 2 comes to mind with Samara with the details of what's done as her loyalty mission,still not spoiling it for those who have yet to play it or new PS3 players. Anyway with the specifics of what that mission is to that character, I wonder if that qualifies to what was described as a desire for more character motivation mixed with paternal instincts.

Furthermore, to continue praising the game and design choice, with the design choice that while you the player can entertain and pursue a romantic relationship with the character, Samara turn Shepard down, but not before saying she'd all but rock her/his universe which I find interesting on reflection. But what I really like about this isn't that it not built that her character is the naive innocent or the cold and dead, but she's just over that part of her life having been alive for so long and already had those experiences, or at least that's how I saw it. Going back to the specifics of the dialogue, she say's it would be good if not better and I like this idea because it represents a character making a choice out of her convictions suggesting layers of priorities, desires and such. There's at least the illusion of a character who prioritizes that in game world and how the character interacts with that world, although at a very limited extent.

Now coming along a different thought not related to Bioware. I wonder how the panel would feel about tongue and cheek misogyny with a male protagonist game, what with the up coming release of Duke Nukem Forever. How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

DreamingMerc:
How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

I think we can laugh along with everyone else. :) I don't think anyone takes that stuff seriously.

DreamingMerc:

Now coming along a different thought not related to Bioware. I wonder how the panel would feel about tongue and cheek misogyny with a male protagonist game, what with the up coming release of Duke Nukem Forever. How forgiving can gamers and girl gamers particularly be with the style of that game, what with the strippers and triple stacked bikini blonds.

Honestly I don't think it would really bother me tho obviously I can't speak for all girl gamers. Duke Nukem is in no way serious, its prettty much a parody. I might even play it for a laugh.

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