Internet Explodes Over Origin's Invasion of Privacy

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 . . . 20 NEXT
 

Abandon4093:

RiouChan:
Just buy the hardcopy. It isn't that hard.

Are you not privy to the fact that the hard copy still requires you to install Origin?

How do so many people still not know this?

Well, you could always crack the execuable, I know the legality of cracking the game is iffy. But fuck legality man, If they complain about people decompiling their .exe file they shouldn't to be doing this kind of shit.

satsugaikaze:
[Snip]

the worrying point is that they could be

"They could be". So basically everyone's making pledges to not buy EA's products, calling out to rally people to protect their rights to privacy, on the grounds that "they could be" sending information about the programs you access (in an anonymous way).

I hesitate to call this fearmongering, but this article isn't doing the paranoids in this community any favors.

It is unacceptably broad and overreach on EA's part. Most of the ToS are these days. Might as well have a fight here and try to make a difference. I think most of us loath the way we are treated by these companies. Might as well let them know that.

satsugaikaze:

Akalabeth:
I don't know where anyone is getting the sense that EA is going to scan your computer and take screenshots of your personal information.

I mean, maybe it has the potential to be read that way.
But the impression I get from this is:

identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services.

So, basically they want to know:
OS - What's your preferred O/S
Applicaton - How often do you use Origin, was it installed properly.
Software - what games do you own and how often do you play them
Hardware - what hardware do you use to play your games

And they're going to use this to:
Make sure your updates work and provide content that appeals to you.

And people are somehow reading this as:
EA is going to scan my hard drive, catalogue, document, sort everything and send it back to the NWO.

Mind you, I do understand that in the above context it is a bit open ended (not having seen the whole thing). And a "software run through Origin" or "hardware relevant to the running of software on origin" or things of that nature may clear up any confusion.

This is probably the most sensible post I've read all day.

Can't you sheep just read the article properly? The 'uproar' being caused is not over the actual clause itself, but over what the writer of the article is projecting.

Exactly, this whole thing is basically a big hullabaloo over not what is being said, but what is not being said. And this whole EA is the devil thing is getting old. EA wants money, they're a business, they probably have investors, they're not trying to piss people off.

If people have concerns that the contract is vague and has been left deliberately so in order for EA to snoop information which lies beyond the scope of the Origin service then bring those concerns to EA with the request that the contract be clarified.

Personally some may think me naive but I'm going to give most people the benefit of the doubt and assume from the get go they're not deliberately trying to screw people over. In this case, I'm going to assume that EA a games publisher is not trying to act like the CIA because as a games publisher its not in their interests to do so. They're intent is to have profit through the process of selling games and other game related content. Any information on your computer which is beyond the scope of "what games do you like to play" is irrelevant.

EA doesn't care what kind of porn you have on your hard drive. Nor what kind of fan fiction you read. Nor what subject you're writing your essay on for English Lit.

Point being, if you have a problem with the vagueness of the contract and its potential implications then get them to clarify it. That's why they have lawyers. Lawyers, who are after all people and like all people they cannot predict the entirety of what is and is what is not covered in a legal document. That's why such documents can be amended and changed to account for previously unforseen issues that may arise from the initial or any subsequent release of the contract.

And incidentally doesn't Xbox and Sony do this already? I mean any gamer account lists all the games that a person has played, that's what achievements are, a permanent record of your games and how devoted you are to playing them. Is there not also information somewhere as to how long games have been played by any individual? This sort of information is most likely already recorded and accounted for on the xbox/psn/wii, EA is just putting a clause in the contract to collect the information for Origin.

Long story short, EAs Origin is obviously intended on being the worse thing in every possible way and they are using the fact that they have big name games that will sell no matter what to force it onto their customers.

They are literally doing everything bad that people hate, 100% knowingly, with the certainty that people have no choice but to take it from the rear.

TheDarkEricDraven:
Fucking EA! Hard. Copies. Come on people! I don't want to be the guy who's telling everyone to "Go back to horses, motors are just a fad!" but seriously!

I wonder if within my lifetime that will happen out of necessity...

OT: Thought the internet wouldn't notice it EA? People CAN read. Scary right?

Eh people will still accept it in order to play BF3, even if they say they won't.

Baneat:
Eh people will still accept it in order to play BF3, even if they say they won't.

Baseless assumption is baseless. Find me another example of millions of users willingly downloading spyware to play an FPS and I'll listen.

And no, people buying a game they said they would not does not count. Those games were probably unpopular but they still werent spyware.

And no Zynga's spyware doesnt count. Because they got sued for it and it was proven illigal and people didnt willingly download it.

People say they now won't get the game, upon release....they'll get the game.

Akalabeth:
I don't know where anyone is getting the sense that EA is going to scan your computer and take screenshots of your personal information.

I mean, maybe it has the potential to be read that way.
But the impression I get from this is:

identifies your computer (including the Internet Protocol Address), operating system, Application usage (including but not limited to successful installation and/or removal), software, software usage and peripheral hardware, that may be gathered periodically to facilitate the provision of software updates, dynamically served content, product support and other services to you, including online services.

So, basically they want to know:
OS - What's your preferred O/S
Applicaton - How often do you use Origin, was it installed properly.
Software - what games do you own and how often do you play them
Hardware - what hardware do you use to play your games

And they're going to use this to:
Make sure your updates work and provide content that appeals to you.

And people are somehow reading this as:
EA is going to scan my hard drive, catalogue, document, sort everything and send it back to the NWO.

Mind you, I do understand that in the above context it is a bit open ended (not having seen the whole thing). And a "software run through Origin" or "hardware relevant to the running of software on origin" or things of that nature may clear up any confusion.

I can appreciate that people are making a much bigger song and dance about this than it deserves; it's no worse than what Steam, Google and Facebook do. What I don't understand is why it has to be mandatory in order to use the service (or any other service, for that matter, not to single EA out).

Don't I have a right to have updates that never work, and a constant barrage of advertising material that I wouldn't consider even for a second? Putting it that way makes it sound stupid, but that's not the point. If you install a program and a window pops-up offering to produce more efficient updates and deliver relevant advertising, as long as I tell it what software and hardware I have installed, and only that information, I really can't imagine many people are going to take a particular offense to that. I'd be happy to accept it myself. If that's all they want, then that's all perfectly innocent (relatively speaking, of course).

But they make it seem so slimy when it's made mandatory, and hidden amongst several hundred pages worth of end-user license agreement. It's not really the actual clause that I take don't like, it's the approach they've taken.

EDIT: Also, in light of what happened to Sony, and considering the type of information they intend to take and store, I think it might be a good idea for companies to start offering information about the type of security measures are being taken to protect your data. Not enough such that they'll essentially be giving a potential hacker a shopping list, but just so you have a better understanding of how well protected your personal information is, or such that you can get an informed opinion from a professional.

Of course, this isn't going to happen any time soon, but in terms of the company appearing more open and honest (say, more honest and open than they actually are, at any rate), I think it might work in their favour.

You know, assuming their security measures are adequate. Which they should be. That way, if the company ever is hacked, at the very least they can say "well, the customer was aware of the risks when they signed up, sooooo... yeah. Tough titties", which would make them look like arseholes, but at least they're honest arseholes.

Well then I am glad I'm getting Battlefield 3 on console then anyways.

I didn't plan on ever installing Origin anyways and this just makes me want to install it less. I'm fine with basic info such as what OS I am using and anything that pertains to improving gaming. But going through EVERYTHING on my computer? yeah fuck you and no thanks. But that's my opinion. Some people may not have a problem with it and to them more power to ya.

I cannot honestly think that a game publisher like EA could be so stupid as to think that most gamers would agree to letting them know EVERYTHING about you, think about it, they have access to everything. It could monitor your internet usage, look at private files. everything on there is available. Even if they don't use any of this if we don't change this then others will take advantage of us and do the same thing with malicious intent.

Nikolaz72:

Baneat:
Eh people will still accept it in order to play BF3, even if they say they won't.

Baseless assumption is baseless. Find me another example of millions of users willingly downloading spyware to play an FPS and I'll listen.

And no, people buying a game they said they would not does not count. Those games were probably unpopular but they still werent spyware.

And no Zynga's spyware doesnt count. Because they got sued for it and it was proven illigal and people didnt willingly download it.

Why must it be an FPS? Cause I'm considering facebook and google where information is collected from you and harvested for ads and nobody really cares, since they recieve the service they want. The 3DS also has insane ToS, granted the sales are poor but the poll put out on the street didn't have "crazy terms of service" as the top reasons. Gimmicky, lack of games and even lack of colour choices were more common a reason not to buy it If we'll be honest, no-one's going to be affected so harshly individually from whatever Origin plan to do, they might get some strangely specific ads; but if you weren't going to buy it cause of this it's an act on principle not convenience. And I've yet to see the gaming community successfully impact a AAA studio with a boycott even slightly, so when they do it will be a great day. People want to play BF3, and I hope they can subvert this. When the steam group for BF3 inevitably arises from this we'll find out after launch date how many were willing to stick to their guns.

In fact, I find the 3DS ones even worse than this. "We can destroy your shit any time we feel like it" is pretty nasty, but people really do just suck it up because they want to play the games

They want to collect information for their own nefarious purposes - such as selling it for a premium price. That sort of information is worth a lot to marketers.

It sucks that if you want to play Battlefield 3 you would have to sell your privacy and pay $s.

CriticKitten:
Stop insisting that you have no control over a company's policies just because they throw some legalish-looking document in your face. If you can prove wrongdoing on their part, a company of this size will NOT try to defend themselves. Not after various court cases in which big companies lost to "little people". It's a new age in business. Backing off to avoid court is far cheaper than the risk of a suit.

I don't think you understand me ...

If you install, no matter what your legal rights are, you let them in. They are already snooping.

To opt out you MUST NOT play their games, until they actually are forced to remove the spyware. That could take years though. If you want to send a message faster, don't buy.

Lim3:
They want to collect information for their own nefarious purposes - such as selling it for a premium price. That sort of information is worth a lot to marketers.

It sucks that if you want to play Battlefield 3 you would have to sell your privacy and pay $s.

Isn't there laws against this?

How is this different from the Steam hardware survey? No big deal really as long as they don't fuck my shit up. All they will learn from me is that I like open-source, free software and my computer is about 3 years out of date.

The most likely thing is that this is an evil plot to gain control of all gaming computers and force players to only buy and play EA published and offered games.

It's either that or they want to take control of people's porn and naughty picture collections. =P

Releasing the same game over and over again each year with minimal changes? Check.
Taking out contant from the main game to sell it as 20 separate expansions? Check.
Considering Pay-to-Win the perfect solution for an online game? Check.
Violating their users' privacy? Check.

Well, EA has never been the most ethical part of this industry, have they?

(Electronic Arts: a bunch of mindless jerks who will be the first against the wall when the revolution comes.)

Baneat:

Nikolaz72:

Baneat:
Eh people will still accept it in order to play BF3, even if they say they won't.

Baseless assumption is baseless. Find me another example of millions of users willingly downloading spyware to play an FPS and I'll listen.

And no, people buying a game they said they would not does not count. Those games were probably unpopular but they still werent spyware.

And no Zynga's spyware doesnt count. Because they got sued for it and it was proven illigal and people didnt willingly download it.

Why must it be an FPS? Cause I'm considering facebook and google where information is collected from you and harvested for ads and nobody really cares, since they recieve the service they want. The 3DS also has insane ToS, granted the sales are poor but the poll put out on the street didn't have "crazy terms of service" as the top reasons. Gimmicky, lack of games and even lack of colour choices were more common a reason not to buy it If we'll be honest, no-one's going to be affected so harshly individually from whatever Origin plan to do, they might get some strangely specific ads; but if you weren't going to buy it cause of this it's an act on principle not convenience. And I've yet to see the gaming community successfully impact a AAA studio with a boycott even slightly, so when they do it will be a great day. People want to play BF3, and I hope they can subvert this. When the steam group for BF3 inevitably arises from this we'll find out after launch date how many were willing to stick to their guns.

In fact, I find the 3DS ones even worse than this. "We can destroy your shit any time we feel like it" is pretty nasty, but people really do just suck it up because they want to play the games

You just stated perfectly yourself what I didnt. Casual gamers and facebookers dont care for the terms of services. This has never happened before with a tripple-A title. And also, something else you said which doesnt make sense.

You are gonna wait a shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-t load of time for a steamgroup of battlefield 3 to pop up.

The road to BF3 is feeling more and more like a steeple chase; EA keeps on throwing up these obstacles to my eventual purchase, and yet I don't feel my need to complete will result in any greater sense of accomplishment when at last I have my copy in hand. Perhaps due to the egregious thorns it will leave in my side.

Catchy Slogan:
It still boggles the mind as to how this much of an invasion of privacy can be legal.

I'm not sure it is. Not in most European countries, anyway...

(do you remember the stories about the 3DS terms of service? They have some horrible clauses too... But most of those clauses were removed in Europe, because they simply wouldn't be legal.)

But, you never know. Firstly they could be skirting technicalities in various laws. And secondly, they could simply be relying on nobody challenging it.

Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean there's people specifically looking for it. It could go completely unnoticed by the legal systems of various countries until someone specifically challenges them on it.

Anyway, looks like it might be time to break out the sandbox systems.

If companies are getting this intrusive, we really should install their crap into an environment we have fairly tight control over.

Let these programs think they have free access to the system... Meanwhile, we only show them what we want them to see...

Nikolaz72:

Baneat:

Nikolaz72:

Baseless assumption is baseless. Find me another example of millions of users willingly downloading spyware to play an FPS and I'll listen.

And no, people buying a game they said they would not does not count. Those games were probably unpopular but they still werent spyware.

And no Zynga's spyware doesnt count. Because they got sued for it and it was proven illigal and people didnt willingly download it.

Why must it be an FPS? Cause I'm considering facebook and google where information is collected from you and harvested for ads and nobody really cares, since they recieve the service they want. The 3DS also has insane ToS, granted the sales are poor but the poll put out on the street didn't have "crazy terms of service" as the top reasons. Gimmicky, lack of games and even lack of colour choices were more common a reason not to buy it If we'll be honest, no-one's going to be affected so harshly individually from whatever Origin plan to do, they might get some strangely specific ads; but if you weren't going to buy it cause of this it's an act on principle not convenience. And I've yet to see the gaming community successfully impact a AAA studio with a boycott even slightly, so when they do it will be a great day. People want to play BF3, and I hope they can subvert this. When the steam group for BF3 inevitably arises from this we'll find out after launch date how many were willing to stick to their guns.

In fact, I find the 3DS ones even worse than this. "We can destroy your shit any time we feel like it" is pretty nasty, but people really do just suck it up because they want to play the games

You just stated perfectly yourself what I didnt. Casual gamers and facebookers dont care for the terms of services. This has never happened before with a tripple-A title. And also, something else you said which doesnt make sense.

You are gonna wait a shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii-t load of time for a steamgroup of battlefield 3 to pop up.

Makes this all the more interesting actually. Do hardcore (Yeah I'll regard this specific game as hardcore, but only the PC version cause of the sysreqs) gamers have the stones to stand against this, or will they fold as they did with MW2 PC?

There are *many* examples which are strong but not perfect.There's no example we can give where the performance-pushers have been specifically shafted, so we will see. Also: Where do the MW2 PC gamers lie on your casual-hardcore spectrum? It's a PC game (Hardcore) It's CoD(Casual now) and the sysreqs are high enough that you can't play it on a browser-PC, not even close.

Andronicus:
I can appreciate that people are making a much bigger song and dance about this than it deserves; it's no worse than what Steam, Google and Facebook do. What I don't understand is why it has to be mandatory in order to use the service (or any other service, for that matter, not to single EA out).

Don't I have a right to have updates that never work, and a constant barrage of advertising material that I wouldn't consider even for a second? Putting it that way makes it sound stupid, but that's not the point. If you install a program and a window pops-up offering to produce more efficient updates and deliver relevant advertising, as long as I tell it what software and hardware I have installed, and only that information, I really can't imagine many people are going to take a particular offense to that. I'd be happy to accept it myself. If that's all they want, then that's all perfectly innocent (relatively speaking, of course).

But they make it seem so slimy when it's made mandatory, and hidden amongst several hundred pages worth of end-user license agreement. It's not really the actual clause that I take don't like, it's the approach they've taken.

Thing is,
People don't like pop-up windows
People don't like searching around the internet to find the page and the link on the page to their latest game update
They don't like playing a game, encountering a bug, then complaining on a forum with the same issue that's been brought up 50 times before only to learn that they need to go download some update. This information given to them after 4-5 users berate them for being such noobs and not searching before hand.

Game services are the way they are because people complained that the old way was a pain in the ass. Now when the services are doing everything they want them to do, ie, holding their hand while they play they find cause to complain about something else.

And I don't know what exactly Origin is supposed to do. But for example, if I had Origin installed and if I wanted to spend 60 bucks on a game and if Origin scanned my hardware and was like "Hey, you could buy this but your computer can't hack it because it sucks. Are you sure you want to buy?" I would be a happy man. Much happier than buying a game and only discovering afterwards that it can't work. Because as everyone knows, PC games can't be refunded in general. So if Origin does this through scanning my periphreal hardware, that would be great. I doubt it does, but just saying.

And let's be clear. This information is not hidden anywhere. It's in a publicly viewable document that ANYONE can read. Also it's in fairly simple English. It's only "hidden" because people don't bother reading it. But ignorance isn't a defence under the law.

I mean if it was on a pop-up window with flash red font would anyone read it there either? Or would they just click close and mutter "friggin install already I want to play my damn game". I mean short of sticking a cord into your brain socket and downloading the information directly ala the matrix I doubt many people are going to read it no matter how it's presented.

CrystalShadow:

Catchy Slogan:
It still boggles the mind as to how this much of an invasion of privacy can be legal.

I'm not sure it is. Not in most European countries, anyway...

(do you remember the stories about the 3DS terms of service? They have some horrible clauses too... But most of those clauses were removed in Europe, because they simply wouldn't be legal.)

But, you never know. Firstly they could be skirting technicalities in various laws. And secondly, they could simply be relying on nobody challenging it.

Just because it's illegal, doesn't mean there's people specifically looking for it. It could go completely unnoticed by the legal systems of various countries until someone specifically challenges them on it.

Indeed, it would take a class action lawsuit or at least someone bringing this before one of the national courts or ECJ to test their TOS.

If nobody has said this earlier, Windows does this already including steam. Did anyone even look at the terms for steam(the "Collection and Use of Information" in general that is)?

I'm sure there's more to point out in the agreement.

They CAN collect information and share it with 3rd party. It doesn't mean it's an evil company, and so with origin.

Well thank god I was never interested in Battlefield 3 in the first place. Because now I will never get it. Ever.

RiouChan:

Abandon4093:

RiouChan:
Just buy the hardcopy. It isn't that hard.

Are you not privy to the fact that the hard copy still requires you to install Origin?

How do so many people still not know this?

edit

I wouldn't say that on here, you'll get in trouble.

EA is seaming increasingly evil... :/

But c'mon people, unless you have kiddy porn (you sick bastard) I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Jay Fakename:

Abandon4093:

I can guarantee you one thing.

We're not going to effect anything.

Nihilism. Where giving up IS winning.

Hubris, when thinking you can effect everything is a good thing.

It stops being nihilism when it starts being realism.

Reshkar:
If nobody has said this earlier, Windows does this already including steam. Did anyone even look at the terms for steam(the "Collection and Use of Information" in general that is)?

I'm sure there's more to point out in the agreement.

They CAN collect information and share it with 3rd party. It doesn't mean it's an evil company, and so with origin.

No the information needs to be given Ie. the tests that it does every now and then with your permission, it dosent "take the information without you knowing. big difference.

JackWestJr:
EA is seaming increasingly evil... :/

But c'mon people, unless you have kiddy porn (you sick bastard) I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Or plans to assassinate the EA leadership, the existence of which is becoming increasingly likely with every step EA takes.

(Disclaimer: 'tis a joke.)

JackWestJr:
EA is seaming increasingly evil... :/

But c'mon people, unless you have kiddy porn (you sick bastard) I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Or as some people have, if you have downloaded music at all they can sell that information to SonyBMG (or whoever) and use that as a legal means of obtaining evidence against you that you pirated their stuff.

ReiverCorrupter:

Abandon4093:

ReiverCorrupter:
snip for brevity

I think the main issue is whether we should be expected to read and agree to a 10-30 page legal document every time we want to buy a product or download a program.

I get that the majority of consumers just need to become more aware of what they're singing. But giving people large legal documents for items as common and meaningless as games is a little ridiculous. It's not like it's a car or a house.

I also still think that giving the company the ability to demand things such as the handing over of rights in a document such as this is underhanded. I'm still of the thought that a ToS should be just that. It should only pertain to the regulations demanded of item or service your singing it for. That shouldn't include the signing over of rights.

A legal document such as this for such frivolous products and services is silly. We're being bogged down with litigation that a lot of people won't understand.

But to be honest, I can't think of a viable alternative to a ToS. Because the company does need to keep rights for it's product/service. But the expectation that we should read large documents for such inconsequential paraphernalia is obscene. And frankly, most of what is in there doesn't apply to your average customer. It's to stop people from abusing the service. Most people won't.

So we've essentially been burdened with this because a few jackasses will find a way to abuse the things.

It just doesn't seem right to me.

Yeah, but if they didn't have them then they couldn't sue those jackasses. What they could do is just add another clause to the initial agreement so that by signing it you continue to agree to the terms every time there is a new update unless the terms have changed, and then you need only read and agree to the changed sections.

I think most companies do that, when the update something they prompt you to read the updated ToS.

It's a shame a few jackasses force this kind of behaviour, especially when it's so easily abused.

Personally, I think I can understand what EA's reasons for doing this is, but that doesn't deny the fact that, overall, this was a really poor choice on their part.

I am pretty sure the reason for Origin to always be seekritly delivering data to EA would be, first and foremost, locating hackers with an illegal copy of their games or of Origin itself, or someone that found a bug in the system and is exploiting it to get free games or something like that. Big game companies, for some reason, still have an avid paranoia about piracy, enough that they would believe this would be a good idea (it isn't).

The other obvious reason, of course, is to gather data on demographics. The games and applications installed, the hours spent on computers, the OS and how updated the normal aesthetics are, etc. Again, good idea to try and use it to gather some data, but not a good idea to have it do that 'all the time', as well as collect 'all of your information.' That's just prying at that rate.

tbh, I don't see why Origin just can't have an opt-in/out feature.

Goldeneye1989:

JackWestJr:
EA is seaming increasingly evil... :/

But c'mon people, unless you have kiddy porn (you sick bastard) I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Or as some people have, if you have downloaded music at all they can sell that information to SonyBMG (or whoever) and use that as a legal means of obtaining evidence against you that you pirated their stuff.

Which would bring us back to the debate that owning illegally downloaded music is not a crime*, but downloading is. EA would need to get information from one's internet provider to be able to do that.

* - i.e. if you buy an illegal CD not knowing it was illegal, you can't be sued under most legal systems. I don't know how it works in the US, but at least in Europe, it is that way.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 . . . 20 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here