Square Enix Responds to "Racist" Deus Ex Character

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Gah, just ignore this. Stupid controversy. Is it bad that I never saw the character in the game though?

DanielBrown:
I'm more bothered with the protagonists voice. What's happened to his throat?

The obvious answer would be "he done got effed up in the prologue mission" but Hell, he sounded like he'd been taking gravel to fix a sore throat even before that.

OT: I don't think it's racist. I think this guy's a moron, and Letitia is funny as Hell but there's no racism involved.

Uber Waddles:
Have you heard the Asian voice actors in this game?

They aren't much better. I don't think its people being overtly racist. Its just some black lady. Shes uneducated, unrefined, and uncivilized. How better to portray that than to have her speak broken English and just act in a dumb manner.

Racism isn't really something thats done by acting. Racism would be pointing to that display of acting, and saying "all blacks are like that because they're inferior". Blackface pretty much did this for comical effect. This just does it because it felt like doing it.

If you honestly think this is racist, you need to step back, get off your high horse, and get in touch. Pointing to things people do isn't racist. Even if it is a feature exhibited by a certain racial group. Do you know why stereotypes exist? Because a good chunk of them are accurate to some degree of a population.

Portraying a black person as an idiot isn't racist. There are black people out there that are idiots, just as there are whites, asians, hispanics. Racism would be pointing to them and saying "All blacks are dumb because of they have a different pigment in their skin"

Ill even go a step further, and go back to RE5. Portraying African tribals in leopard skin clothing isn't racist. Its been done before. And guess what - there are still African tribes who use spears. Spears didn't go extinct. There are still civilizations of people who live off the land, in makeshift houses with makeshift materials.

To be honest, I find it stupid that issues of race, sex, etc. can ever come up because there are actually people of a race, sex, etc. who act that way. If you find anything that doesn't overtly point to a race and say "they are inferior because they are different", you need to re-evaluate some things.

ITS. A. GAME. GET OVER IT PEOPLE

As I've said in my other posts in this thread, it's just rabble rousing for attention since people want to keep the belief in mainstream American racism alive for political reasons. The portrayal here is fine, and works.

It was the same thing with "Resident Evil 5", the problem wasn't the game, but with a media willing to give ridiculousness like this a platform. It's like saying that National Geographic should be attacked for showing tribals as tribals. "Resident Evil 5" showed a pretty diverse selection of african locales overall.

I dunno though, if this kind of thing continues I'm wondering if maybe we should get a bunch of "angry white guys" together to sue the guys who made '300' over the offensive portayal of whites. After all we aren't olive/dusky skinned greeks, those are the guys who enslaved us poor, primitive anglo saxons! But wait, who says we were primitive, WTF are those guys doing without proper armor, and wielding spears and swords!?1?!?!? everyone knows real white guys fight with guns and cruise missles. Obviously '300' is racist, and it being a work of "historical fantasy" is nothing butt an effort to insult and make fun of white people! I demand millions of dollars in repairations... and them to re-edit the movie to give the Spartans Kevlar and M-16s! At the end Leonidas shouldn't throw a spear at Xerxes, but call down a cruise missle strike....

Therumancer:

Uber Waddles:
Have you heard the Asian voice actors in this game?

They aren't much better. I don't think its people being overtly racist. Its just some black lady. Shes uneducated, unrefined, and uncivilized. How better to portray that than to have her speak broken English and just act in a dumb manner.

Racism isn't really something thats done by acting. Racism would be pointing to that display of acting, and saying "all blacks are like that because they're inferior". Blackface pretty much did this for comical effect. This just does it because it felt like doing it.

If you honestly think this is racist, you need to step back, get off your high horse, and get in touch. Pointing to things people do isn't racist. Even if it is a feature exhibited by a certain racial group. Do you know why stereotypes exist? Because a good chunk of them are accurate to some degree of a population.

Portraying a black person as an idiot isn't racist. There are black people out there that are idiots, just as there are whites, asians, hispanics. Racism would be pointing to them and saying "All blacks are dumb because of they have a different pigment in their skin"

Ill even go a step further, and go back to RE5. Portraying African tribals in leopard skin clothing isn't racist. Its been done before. And guess what - there are still African tribes who use spears. Spears didn't go extinct. There are still civilizations of people who live off the land, in makeshift houses with makeshift materials.

To be honest, I find it stupid that issues of race, sex, etc. can ever come up because there are actually people of a race, sex, etc. who act that way. If you find anything that doesn't overtly point to a race and say "they are inferior because they are different", you need to re-evaluate some things.

ITS. A. GAME. GET OVER IT PEOPLE

As I've said in my other posts in this thread, it's just rabble rousing for attention since people want to keep the belief in mainstream American racism alive for political reasons. The portrayal here is fine, and works.

It was the same thing with "Resident Evil 5", the problem wasn't the game, but with a media willing to give ridiculousness like this a platform. It's like saying that National Geographic should be attacked for showing tribals as tribals. "Resident Evil 5" showed a pretty diverse selection of african locales overall.

I dunno though, if this kind of thing continues I'm wondering if maybe we should get a bunch of "angry white guys" together to sue the guys who made '300' over the offensive portayal of whites. After all we aren't olive/dusky skinned greeks, those are the guys who enslaved us poor, primitive anglo saxons! But wait, who says we were primitive, WTF are those guys doing without proper armor, and wielding spears and swords!?1?!?!? everyone knows real white guys fight with guns and cruise missles. Obviously '300' is racist, and it being a work of "historical fantasy" is nothing butt an effort to insult and make fun of white people! I demand millions of dollars in repairations... and them to re-edit the movie to give the Spartans Kevlar and M-16s! At the end Leonidas shouldn't throw a spear at Xerxes, but call down a cruise missle strike....

The fact that this portrayal isn't racist doesn't change the fact that racism in america is still alive and well today. All you need to do is look at media, how often do you see an asian-american lead? Now add to that, how often do you see an asian-american lead that isn't playing a martial artist or a comedic character of some variety?

And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

AdumbroDeus:
And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

Meaning, a lot more than you know. Visually, they look spot on (a quick Google Image search will confirm this for you) and their behavior is moot since they are infected in the game. I wonder where people get these stupid ideas about what is "racist".

On topic: Confirmed with my wife and her family, Letitia is NOT racist. Neither is The Help and The Blind Side as Moviebob continues to insist. Then again, I didn't need to confirm what is plain to see for anyone not blinded by liberal propaganda.

THOMAS!

this clip is hilarious!

Seriously though, did no one in the creative process question this, oh an resident evil 4 was documentary level realism in its depiction of spain...

Mister Linton:

AdumbroDeus:
And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

Meaning, a lot more than you know. Visually, they look spot on (a quick Google Image search will confirm this for you) and their behavior is moot since they are infected in the game. I wonder where people get these stupid ideas about what is "racist".

On topic: Confirmed with my wife and her family, Letitia is NOT racist. Neither is The Help and The Blind Side as Moviebob continues to insist. Then again, I didn't need to confirm what is plain to see for anyone not blinded by liberal propaganda.

No.

Headhunter masks? Flaming arrows? Obviously larger and more organized society then isolated tribesman could create (which are the only group non-westernized enough to pull it off). Small poor isolated village (without the masks), cool.

Massive wooden cities whose inhabitants clearly evoke headhunters suggests a lot more, unless your telling me the organization and city was entirely due to being infected.

Ugh. People are way too easily offended these days. By this logic, as someone of German descent, I should be offended by every ridiculous portrayal of a German in every WWII video game ever. That certainly doesn't represent your typical German, even back in the 30s and 40s. Similarly, as a Canadian, basically every American depiction of a Canadian ever should be hugely offensive to me. I've never meet a Canadian that even remotely conforms to any of those stereotypes. I don't even know where they're coming from.

And yet, neither bother me.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no malicious intent, it's all up for grabs.

[quote="AdumbroDeus" post="7.310500.12579119]Headhunter masks? Flaming arrows? Obviously larger and more organized society then isolated tribesman could create (which are the only group non-westernized enough to pull it off). Small poor isolated village (without the masks), cool.

Massive wooden cities whose inhabitants clearly evoke headhunters suggests a lot more, unless your telling me the organization and city was entirely due to being infected.[/quote]

Ceremonial masks are quite common. Now the scale of the game environment and number of enemies was a racist design choice huh? Oookaayy.

Sylveria:
I'd be more offended by the people saying "This woman is an african-american stereotype" than by the actual character itself. You must be pretty darn racist to see something that over the top and say "Yup, that's what black people sound like."

My thoughts.

Basically people saw that character and immediately had racist thoughts about it.

I'm interested in someone making a list of all the kinds of people you can't put in games, movies, music, or stories anymore.

Cause it seems like the list is growing.

"This kind of black person no longer is real and is racist, that kind of Chinese person is racist, that kind of white person is racist, oh and that Indian guy over there definitely is."

Generally the ones offended are the ones living their days judging people by the unimportant (ie. uncontrollable) factors.

floobie:
Ugh. People are way too easily offended these days. By this logic, as someone of German descent, I should be offended by every ridiculous portrayal of a German in every WWII video game ever. That certainly doesn't represent your typical German, even back in the 30s and 40s. Similarly, as a Canadian, basically every American depiction of a Canadian ever should be hugely offensive to me. I've never meet a Canadian that even remotely conforms to any of those stereotypes. I don't even know where they're coming from.

And yet, neither bother me.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as there's no malicious intent, it's all up for grabs.

I'm reminded of all the pre-war videos of young German soldiers in camp. Looked like a bunch of kids who would rather be out singing, drinking, and playing games.

Shame what would become of their future.

(Also yes, yes, I know, anything that portrays German soldiers as normal humans is propaganda, they were REALLY summoning demons to aid them in the war against the holy alliance).

AdumbroDeus:

The fact that this portrayal isn't racist doesn't change the fact that racism in america is still alive and well today. All you need to do is look at media, how often do you see an asian-american lead? Now add to that, how often do you see an asian-american lead that isn't playing a martial artist or a comedic character of some variety?

And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

There are a lot of white people acting, a good portion of those white people play stupid characters, comic relief, or your generic imbecile/jerk.

For every one of these games you can just as easily do it with white folks.

Because movie directors tend to suck. There are a bunch of films out there, a phenomenal amount. Most of them portray people generically, regardless of race.

I'd be up for Lucy Liu replacing Sandra Bullock in all her films. Lets do this.

It won't change anything about the films, nor does it matter, but it'll make some sensitive people happy and I find Lucy Liu to be delightful.

Which reminds me, was she the only racist portrayal in Charlie's Angels? Cause I mean, she was doing martial arts.

This guy's the racist. Thankfully, we can be glad that he just gave press to n absolutely fantastic game!

What every black person in a video game gotta be a positive model?

Mister Linton:
[quote="AdumbroDeus" post="7.310500.12579119]Headhunter masks? Flaming arrows? Obviously larger and more organized society then isolated tribesman could create (which are the only group non-westernized enough to pull it off). Small poor isolated village (without the masks), cool.

Massive wooden cities whose inhabitants clearly evoke headhunters suggests a lot more, unless your telling me the organization and city was entirely due to being infected.[/quote]

Ceremonial masks are quite common. Now the scale of the game environment and number of enemies was a racist design choice huh? Oookaayy.

Ceremonial masks for infected? Somehow I don't think that a parasitic infestation that basically turns people into zombies would make them very inclined to pick up ceremonial masks and use them because they are impractical. The only reason it makes sense is from a visual aesthetic, to recall headhunters.

Yes, because the scale recalls the large scale tribal nations prior to european conquest, this in turn makes it an unrealistic portrayal and turns them into this image of the head-hunter tribes of pre-european conquest africa that was held by the settlers.

If you wanna argue that it's not a racist portrayal because they're realistic up to the point that they turned by the parasites then even small mistakes are extremely grating. But this recalls them at the height of their power, and in turn recalls the fear that the europeans felt towards these "savage" tribes.

theultimateend:

There are a lot of white people acting, a good portion of those white people play stupid characters, comic relief, or your generic imbecile/jerk.

For every one of these games you can just as easily do it with white folks.

Because movie directors tend to suck. There are a bunch of films out there, a phenomenal amount. Most of them portray people generically, regardless of race.

I'd be up for Lucy Liu replacing Sandra Bullock in all her films. Lets do this.

It won't change anything about the films, nor does it matter, but it'll make some sensitive people happy and I find Lucy Liu to be delightful.

Which reminds me, was she the only racist portrayal in Charlie's Angels? Cause I mean, she was doing martial arts.

The issue of racism is that no asian actors can be a lead unless it involves comedy or martial arts. That's the state of the movie industry today, even if the story behind a movie is about asian-americans and caucasians just don't work in that context. For example, the movie 21.

Regardless, it's not so much that an african-american character is stupid, it's stupidity in a way that blatently charicatures african-americans in general.

The portrary in deus ex didn't, and frankly the implication that ebonics=stupid and uneducated is racist. The gibbering headhunter tribesmen in RE5 did.

Yeah, let's blatantly ignore the three far-less-clichè'd black minor characters that appears before the "racist depiction".

AdumbroDeus:
[
The fact that this portrayal isn't racist doesn't change the fact that racism in america is still alive and well today. All you need to do is look at media, how often do you see an asian-american lead? Now add to that, how often do you see an asian-american lead that isn't playing a martial artist or a comedic character of some variety?

And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

Racism is dead in the USA as a mainstream phenomena, there ARE a few racists on the fringe of society, but that is by definition not mainstream. What your talking about is what in sociology they call "invisible knapsack" theory which is a huge joke, but forms the backbone of liberal idealogy that otherwise can't justify itself, and acts as an excuse for minorities to justify anti-societal behavior and their own failings, as opposed to doing the actual hard work of trying to fit in.

"Invisible Knapsack" theory refers to the idea of there being a knapsack full of all these things white people take for granted, that non-whites cannot in the US. A sort of metaphor for unintentional racism, based on things like "well, can you rely on it being more likely than not if you ask for the person in charge, will it be someone of your own ethnicity?".

The theory is garbage and has been laughed out of most serious discourse on the USA because by definition most of the things this winds up being applied to are simply reflections of minority vs. majority status. In a country with the majority of people being white, of course your most likely to find white people running the businesses for example. Likewise just a programs made in China or Japan have mostly Chinese or Japanese actors, programs in nations like the USA are going to involve mostly white actors. We do see minorities represented in things like the cinema, and fairly accuratly numerically compared to their numbers in society for the most part. If you start making arguements that "equality means 50-50 with white people" it becomes a joke because you can't have a memory of every minority present in a melting pot in the US for every white actor in a given film. It's unworkable not to mention totally counter productive to the stated purpose.

The very fact that you need to qualify your comments on asian actors by saying "accept for these kinds of roles" is likewise evidence that racism is dead in mainstream society. To be racist you'd have to have people saying these people are inherantly inferior and thus unable to be on the screem. Even in being typecast people are pointing towards advantages and things people of that sort are "good at" which undermines the whole arguement... assuming you had one to begin with.

I'd point to the careers of Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park as examples of a couple of Asian/Asianesque actors that have played roles that had nothing to do with martial arts or being comedy relief. Daniel Dae Kim played on "Lost" for years, and previous to that he played a Lawyer on "Angel", and currently he plays alongside Grace Park who played a fighter pilot on "Battlestar Galactica" in "Hawaii 5-O". None of these roles have involved much comedy or the usage of martial arts, even in the action scenes when and where they have occured, and even so fisticuffs haven't been the big parts of the characters.

You can say "meh, exceptions" but see the thing is we're talking about a minority group here, you aren't going to find as many asians in the media as whites in the US cinema simply due to the population breakdown, if you did it would be very, very wierd. Given the population breakdown.

All told though if you want to deal with real racism though, try going to China and campaigning for more acceptance of whites as equals and in their media. I'll warn you, you will probably wind up not coming to a happy end though. See, racism does exist on the globe still despite the best interests of the USA to eliminate it, but the problem is that liberals feel it's too much work to deal with the real problems. It's easy to bellyache about it in the US where they know nothing bad is going to happen to them (freedom of speech) and the actual battle has already been one. It makes one feel important, and they can hold to their anti-war sentiments right alongside it. Dealing with the real racists left however is both hard, dangerous, and is probably going to involve a lot of war and violence... as a result people will sit in front of their computers and talk about evil white America... which happens because white america allows it and even has no objections to ceasing to be the majority (Hispanics will soon outnumber whites), as opposed to say going to a country where such freedoms don't exist and REALLY campaigning for civil liberties where it might matter.

Greg Tito:
"The horrible broken English Letitia speaks is so far removed from any actual slang that it renders the character practically extra-terrestrial," Narcisse said. "It's not from an alien planet, though. That slang harkens back to the worst blackface minstrelsy of the last century."

If her slang isn't similar to anything in the past hundred years... maybe, just maybe!... she ISN'T A RACIST STEREOTYPE :OOOOOOO *the world collapses in upon itself*

I wish we had enough other things to talk about then one person who scans things looking for things to get offended and write articles about...

Al-Bundy-da-G:
What every black person in a video game gotta be a positive model?

Indeed, lol, is that a family guy reference?

AdumbroDeus:
[Yes, because the scale recalls the large scale tribal nations prior to european conquest, this in turn makes it an unrealistic portrayal and turns them into this image of the head-hunter tribes of pre-european conquest africa that was held by the settlers.

If you wanna argue that it's not a racist portrayal because they're realistic up to the point that they turned by the parasites then even small mistakes are extremely grating. But this recalls them at the height of their power, and in turn recalls the fear that the europeans felt towards these "savage" tribes.]

You can't think of any other reason why the game environments would be big and have that many enemies in it? (protip: don't get into game design if you can't)

Therumancer:

AdumbroDeus:
[
The fact that this portrayal isn't racist doesn't change the fact that racism in america is still alive and well today. All you need to do is look at media, how often do you see an asian-american lead? Now add to that, how often do you see an asian-american lead that isn't playing a martial artist or a comedic character of some variety?

And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

Racism is dead in the USA as a mainstream phenomena, there ARE a few racists on the fringe of society, but that is by definition not mainstream. What your talking about is what in sociology they call "invisible knapsack" theory which is a huge joke, but forms the backbone of liberal idealogy that otherwise can't justify itself, and acts as an excuse for minorities to justify anti-societal behavior and their own failings, as opposed to doing the actual hard work of trying to fit in.

"Invisible Knapsack" theory refers to the idea of there being a knapsack full of all these things white people take for granted, that non-whites cannot in the US. A sort of metaphor for unintentional racism, based on things like "well, can you rely on it being more likely than not if you ask for the person in charge, will it be someone of your own ethnicity?".

The theory is garbage and has been laughed out of most serious discourse on the USA because by definition most of the things this winds up being applied to are simply reflections of minority vs. majority status. In a country with the majority of people being white, of course your most likely to find white people running the businesses for example. Likewise just a programs made in China or Japan have mostly Chinese or Japanese actors, programs in nations like the USA are going to involve mostly white actors. We do see minorities represented in things like the cinema, and fairly accuratly numerically compared to their numbers in society for the most part. If you start making arguements that "equality means 50-50 with white people" it becomes a joke because you can't have a memory of every minority present in a melting pot in the US for every white actor in a given film. It's unworkable not to mention totally counter productive to the stated purpose.

The very fact that you need to qualify your comments on asian actors by saying "accept for these kinds of roles" is likewise evidence that racism is dead in mainstream society. To be racist you'd have to have people saying these people are inherantly inferior and thus unable to be on the screem. Even in being typecast people are pointing towards advantages and things people of that sort are "good at" which undermines the whole arguement... assuming you had one to begin with.

I'd point to the careers of Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park as examples of a couple of Asian/Asianesque actors that have played roles that had nothing to do with martial arts or being comedy relief. Daniel Dae Kim played on "Lost" for years, and previous to that he played a Lawyer on "Angel", and currently he plays alongside Grace Park who played a fighter pilot on "Battlestar Galactica" in "Hawaii 5-O". None of these roles have involved much comedy or the usage of martial arts, even in the action scenes when and where they have occured, and even so fisticuffs haven't been the big parts of the characters.

You can say "meh, exceptions" but see the thing is we're talking about a minority group here, you aren't going to find as many asians in the media as whites in the US cinema simply due to the population breakdown, if you did it would be very, very wierd. Given the population breakdown.

All told though if you want to deal with real racism though, try going to China and campaigning for more acceptance of whites as equals and in their media. I'll warn you, you will probably wind up not coming to a happy end though. See, racism does exist on the globe still despite the best interests of the USA to eliminate it, but the problem is that liberals feel it's too much work to deal with the real problems. It's easy to bellyache about it in the US where they know nothing bad is going to happen to them (freedom of speech) and the actual battle has already been one. It makes one feel important, and they can hold to their anti-war sentiments right alongside it. Dealing with the real racists left however is both hard, dangerous, and is probably going to involve a lot of war and violence... as a result people will sit in front of their computers and talk about evil white America... which happens because white america allows it and even has no objections to ceasing to be the majority (Hispanics will soon outnumber whites), as opposed to say going to a country where such freedoms don't exist and REALLY campaigning for civil liberties where it might matter.

Therumancer:

AdumbroDeus:
[
The fact that this portrayal isn't racist doesn't change the fact that racism in america is still alive and well today. All you need to do is look at media, how often do you see an asian-american lead? Now add to that, how often do you see an asian-american lead that isn't playing a martial artist or a comedic character of some variety?

And if you think that RE5's portrayal of tribals was anything but a racist caricature, you have about as much knowledge of African tribesmen as Capcom seems to.

Racism is dead in the USA as a mainstream phenomena, there ARE a few racists on the fringe of society, but that is by definition not mainstream. What your talking about is what in sociology they call "invisible knapsack" theory which is a huge joke, but forms the backbone of liberal idealogy that otherwise can't justify itself, and acts as an excuse for minorities to justify anti-societal behavior and their own failings, as opposed to doing the actual hard work of trying to fit in.

"Invisible Knapsack" theory refers to the idea of there being a knapsack full of all these things white people take for granted, that non-whites cannot in the US. A sort of metaphor for unintentional racism, based on things like "well, can you rely on it being more likely than not if you ask for the person in charge, will it be someone of your own ethnicity?".

The theory is garbage and has been laughed out of most serious discourse on the USA because by definition most of the things this winds up being applied to are simply reflections of minority vs. majority status. In a country with the majority of people being white, of course your most likely to find white people running the businesses for example. Likewise just a programs made in China or Japan have mostly Chinese or Japanese actors, programs in nations like the USA are going to involve mostly white actors. We do see minorities represented in things like the cinema, and fairly accuratly numerically compared to their numbers in society for the most part. If you start making arguements that "equality means 50-50 with white people" it becomes a joke because you can't have a memory of every minority present in a melting pot in the US for every white actor in a given film. It's unworkable not to mention totally counter productive to the stated purpose.

The very fact that you need to qualify your comments on asian actors by saying "accept for these kinds of roles" is likewise evidence that racism is dead in mainstream society. To be racist you'd have to have people saying these people are inherantly inferior and thus unable to be on the screem. Even in being typecast people are pointing towards advantages and things people of that sort are "good at" which undermines the whole arguement... assuming you had one to begin with.

I'd point to the careers of Daniel Dae Kim and Grace Park as examples of a couple of Asian/Asianesque actors that have played roles that had nothing to do with martial arts or being comedy relief. Daniel Dae Kim played on "Lost" for years, and previous to that he played a Lawyer on "Angel", and currently he plays alongside Grace Park who played a fighter pilot on "Battlestar Galactica" in "Hawaii 5-O". None of these roles have involved much comedy or the usage of martial arts, even in the action scenes when and where they have occured, and even so fisticuffs haven't been the big parts of the characters.

You can say "meh, exceptions" but see the thing is we're talking about a minority group here, you aren't going to find as many asians in the media as whites in the US cinema simply due to the population breakdown, if you did it would be very, very wierd. Given the population breakdown.

All told though if you want to deal with real racism though, try going to China and campaigning for more acceptance of whites as equals and in their media. I'll warn you, you will probably wind up not coming to a happy end though. See, racism does exist on the globe still despite the best interests of the USA to eliminate it, but the problem is that liberals feel it's too much work to deal with the real problems. It's easy to bellyache about it in the US where they know nothing bad is going to happen to them (freedom of speech) and the actual battle has already been one. It makes one feel important, and they can hold to their anti-war sentiments right alongside it. Dealing with the real racists left however is both hard, dangerous, and is probably going to involve a lot of war and violence... as a result people will sit in front of their computers and talk about evil white America... which happens because white america allows it and even has no objections to ceasing to be the majority (Hispanics will soon outnumber whites), as opposed to say going to a country where such freedoms don't exist and REALLY campaigning for civil liberties where it might matter.

What are you talking about? The fact is the vast majority of roles in cinema no asian american male will ever have a chance in, because those of very specific roles. Even when we're talking about comedic actors or action heroes, there are so few roles given to them that it no way makes of for roles they can never receive.

Furthermore, you're missing the bigger, but implicit point. OTHERNESS. Asian Americans are no perceived as american, they are perceived as exotic, and therefore suitable for roles of mystical martial artists, or sources of amusement through wacky cultural hijinks (which bridged somewhat into them being acceptable in other wacky roles).

While I was talking about male leads, there are other roles written, notice that when something is set in america or with Americans asians are almost never americans, they're always foreign tourists. There is another steriotype for female asians, various "exotic" love interests. Furthermore, supporting actors like in lost have their own steriotypes, but they're incredibly rare in cinema and emphasize the otherness (granted, the other asian-american in lost was an exception, but an incredibly rare exception).

Also, ever wonder why asian males (including leads) almost never get the girl in the end?

Here's the thing though, it isn't so much that asians aren't commonly in cinema, it's that they're signifigantly less common then their percentage of the population would suggest. Are 4.8% of roles in movies taken by asian americans?

This is especially true when you consider that asian americans are concentrated on the coasts, and especially the west coast asian americans have been here for generations and have fully assimilated, so go into the arts in comparable rates. Since the coasts, especially the west coast is so dominant compared to the american heartland one would expect that asian americans would have at least a comparable percentage in movie parts, but that's not true.

And bringing it back to the movie 21, the story that it was based on was about asian americans and their ethnicity played a significant role in why the scam worked (playing on the racism of the casino owners), but the execs decided to rewrite the roles as white, why? They felt it would be more marketable. If that doesn't tell the story nothing does.

Mister Linton:

AdumbroDeus:
[Yes, because the scale recalls the large scale tribal nations prior to european conquest, this in turn makes it an unrealistic portrayal and turns them into this image of the head-hunter tribes of pre-european conquest africa that was held by the settlers.

If you wanna argue that it's not a racist portrayal because they're realistic up to the point that they turned by the parasites then even small mistakes are extremely grating. But this recalls them at the height of their power, and in turn recalls the fear that the europeans felt towards these "savage" tribes.]

You can't think of any other reason why the game environments would be big and have that many enemies in it? (protip: don't get into game design if you can't)

But you're missing the point, there were other ways to accomplish the same thing.

In any work of art, the artist is responsible for the symbolism the work carries. The reason why they made the environment large and relatively advanced is obvious, but if it would carry a meaning that they didn't intend and would be counterproductive then they should've designed in a way that had the advantages without carrying that meaning.

For example, separate isolated villages that you had to fight through while traveling through the wetlands. That would've worked, and if a wetland didn't allow you to use the same effect, a mountainous region would work. Nix the ridiculous headhunter masks.

It would've been pretty easy to nip this in the bud before the fact, but capcom is unfortunately not known for cultural knowledge or sensitivity, so I doubt they even realized it would be an issue.

I'm black and didn't find this racist. i also think its stupid to take a character in a game and turn it into an insult.

stop complaining and stfu if you are offended, and don't buy anymore games if your going to complain about something that shouldn't have any personal impact on you at all.

This kind of thing really pisses me off, for example I live in the Netherlands and I grew up with a pastry that when translated is called a Negro Kiss, it has been called that for decades and the pastry thingy is very tasty. now because of one oversensitive black person they had to change the name. that shit is just insane. the only thing that was implicated by the name is that black people know haw to kiss. the shit was tasty. "ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble.

so there!

Lopende Paddo:
I'm black and didn't find this racist. i also think its stupid to take a character in a game and turn it into an insult.

stop complaining and stfu if you are offended, and don't buy anymore games if your going to complain about something that shouldn't have any personal impact on you at all.

This kind of thing really pisses me off, for example I live in the Netherlands and I grew up with a pastry that when translated is called a Negro Kiss, it has been called that for decades and the pastry thingy is very tasty. now because of one oversensitive black person they had to change the name. that shit is just insane. the only thing that was implicated by the name is that black people know haw to kiss. the shit was tasty. "ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble ramble.

so there!

Being Australian I had never heard of that pastry. However once I read the description of it I realised we have the same basic thing and its called "Choc Marshmallow Biscuit". Pretty imaginative us Aussies.

Al-Bundy-da-G:
What every black person in a video game gotta be a positive model?

You misspelled "posamative".

So we flip out because Latissha here actually depicts people as they are today, and is blatantly accepting of varying ethnicities by including them in the game, and having characters pretty much not care.

Where was this guy when Bridget Tenenbaum of Bioshock fame was called a Kraut? Where was he when Dr. Yi Suchong was voiced? He spoke in (at times) broken English and his accent was heavily influenced by his Chinese heritage. But did we care then? No.

It's honestly a good thing that games can do stuff like this and the only reactions they get for it are nutjobs like this. Maybe someday soon, video games will have made huge steps in racial acceptance in people by exposing them to all the different people and going "Yea, people like her exist. Guess what: there's no problem with that. They're people just like you, and just like all the other characters in this story. That's pretty much life in a nutshell."

were there any women on any any of the police forces?

No, I know plenty of people who talk like that.
Get over the fact that accents sound silly, humanity.

AdumbroDeus:
In any work of art, the artist is responsible for the symbolism the work carries. The reason why they made the environment large and relatively advanced is obvious, but if it would carry a meaning that they didn't intend and would be counterproductive then they should've designed in a way that had the advantages without carrying that meaning.
It would've been pretty easy to nip this in the bud before the fact, but capcom is unfortunately not known for cultural knowledge or sensitivity, so I doubt they even realized it would be an issue.

So it was obvious that the design choices were for gameplay reasons but instead you decide to ignore that and assign a meaning they didn't intend so you can show righteous indignation about the game?

I can misinterperet any piece of art and consider it racist, that doesn't make it so.

Firstly, she's a single character, not all black characters in the game speak like her.

secondly she's a hobo and an alcholic it seems, I imagine Stephen Fry may sound a little different after 10 years living on the street and eating out of bins. (Not that it would happen, most Brits would give money out of their own pocket to keep him in tweed and Duchy Original biscuits!).

Thirdly, she'd asked for a beer, not some fried chicken and some watermelon, ending it with 'massa'.

Fourthly, some people talk like that. Some rednecks sound Larry the cable guy, some english women sound like they just stepped off the set of 'Keeping up Appearances'.

Fifthly, the complainer is an arse.

If we can't have one black character sound like she's based in the ghetto, when...she's based in the ghetto, perhaps it'd be more realistic to have all black characters voiced by this guy, he has at least been homeless.

I've seen white homeless types in games that were utterly incomprehensible, but I didn't take offense, as that's the 'hobo' part, not the white part. I understand blacks n whites of different social classes CAN sound different, but don't have to.

Ummm - how can an accent or voice be racist?

That's just how somebody sounds. I'm pretty sure there are plenty of black/white women/men out there that speak like this.

Geez.

AdumbroDeus, both of your arguments seem to hinge on the issue of realism. Latisha is not a racial caricature because some people sound just like her, and because homeless people really do hustle for money, is what you seem to be saying.

Thing is, whatever Edios et al intended when they put Latisha in the game, I really don't think that what they were going for was realism. This isn't The Wire. The idea is not for an actual homeless person to see the character and say "Yeah, that's just what it's like." Quite the opposite, the company's reaction seems to indicate that the world of DX:HR is supposed to be, in some sense, post-racial--quite unlike our own.

Latisha is not supposed to sound like a real person. It's a stylized performance, which is totally fine in and of itself. What's interesting, again, is that for whatever reason, the specific style they've chosen is pretty closely aligned to minstrel dialogue (which is why I provided a YouTube link in my previous post, to show that that connection is real).

It is also interesting that people see that very mannered characterization and think "That's exactly how homeless black people really are!" or worse yet, "If you're reading racial stereotypes into that totally harmless dialect, then you're the racist one!" The fact that such an historically-situated archetype can just read as generically "poor" or "uneducated" or whatever else people have said in this thread? That proves my point, not yours.

AdumbroDeus:
1. The accent and speech style is common today (ebonics, look it up).

Latisha's speech patterns sound much more like minstrelsy than like modern-day Ebonics. And yes, there is a difference. Snoop Dogg doesn't sound anything like the Kingfish, and Latisha sounds much closer to the latter.

And look, even if you're right, and if there are a whole bunch of people saying "I bees right here waitin' for you, Cap'n" in casual conversation (which I frankly doubt), characters in books and games and movies aren't real people. In media, subservient black characters who talk like Latisha have a very long and odious history, and it's that tradition (not that of the real black people whom you or I happen to know) to which Latisha belongs.

AdumbroDeus:
2. The reality of homeless people is most want to SURVIVE, so they will perform services. Try going to a subway in NYC, homeless people will very commonly perform or do some other type of service to make ends meet in addition to simply begging.

The mere fact that Latisha is a homeless black person "performing services" is not in any way what's at issue here. What's at issue is the specific ways in which this minor black character relates to the white protagonist--the specific way that she genuflects to him, and how she's willing to help him out a whole bunch whether she gets paid or not, and yes, the fact that she sounds more than a little mammyish while doing so.

And again, I think it would be really hard to argue that Latisha is supposed to closely resemble a real homeless person. Edios certainly isn't making that argument, and there's not much in the text to support it, so I'm honestly not sure why you're making it.

AdumbroDeus:
Furthermore, the implications that people are drawing from her dialect (namely that they imply lack of education and sub-subservience) extremely ignorant of black urban culture or openly racist. The message is this, if you want to be judged as an equal, you need to talk like a white person, a different speech pattern automatically identifies you as inferior. On the other hand, other unusual ways of speaking english are nowhere near as looked down upon.

First, the representation of black people is a different matter than the depiction of white southerners, or of Asians, or of whoever it is you're thinking of when you talk about "unusual ways of speaking." Slavery, Reconstruction, and Jim Crow segregation all relied on systematically representing black people as less than human, or incapable of caring for themselves, or irredeemably violent and/or stupid. While there have certainly been horrific racial caricatures of Asians, Irish, Italians, Jews, and others throughout American history, and while those are real histories that should be remembered and addressed, they are not automatically equal to the tradition of dehumanizing or infantilizing black people.

Put simply: There was no period of American history when any of those other groups was considered property, nor were Irish Americans ever joyously and publicly lynched, in large numbers, by white mobs with de facto legal impunity.

Second, you're not arguing honestly when you talk about people "automatically" ascribing inferiority to Latisha because of her shuck-and-jive dialect. She reads as inferior because the text marks her as inferior. Her dialect doesn't exist in isolation; it appears along with her low social status and her subservience to the gravel-voiced white hero. A lot of people seem to think that it lines up naturally, in fact, which is exactly what makes it a problem: Of course she looks and sounds like that! That's just how poor people look and sound!

If Jensen's boss sounded like Latisha, for example, then we would have something to talk about.

Finally, you didn't say that this was a censorship issue, but you're sort of inching toward that argument when you talk about how we "can't" depict homeless people "performing services." So I just want to be clear: I'm not saying Edios shouldn't be allowed to but a minstrel show sort of a character in their game, or any of that sort of alarmist, "PC Police" nonsense. I'm just saying that they wrote the character badly, and I think they did so because they didn't have a handle on the history of the trope they'd chosen.

That Latisha exists is not surprising, or shouldn't be. That people want to talk about Latisha is potentially constructive. There is absolutely no need to get angry at those who want to talk about Latisha, as though racism would suddenly disappear if only we would stop talking about race. That's defensive, unproductive, and tedious.

Honestly, aren't they primarily portraying a hobo, who secondarily just happens to be black? If it had been a white hobo, with whatever accent, would it have been bad?

Is it racism if the bad guy in a movie is black? Or to phrase it otherwise, if they cast anything but a white person in a role not the hero, is it racism?

Which leaves the question, what happens when someone accuses you of racism, for not casting minorities as bad guys or other "negative" roles, when you have chosen to do so, because casting them as such would get you a cryout for beeing racist as well?
If you cast minorities for those roles, you're a racist, but If you cast only white people for those roles, you're a racist as well.

There's racism, and theres racial over-sensitivity, and somehow, the two is getting mixed a lot.

Sylveria:
I'd be more offended by the people saying "This woman is an african-american stereotype" than by the actual character itself. You must be pretty darn racist to see something that over the top and say "Yup, that's what black people sound like."

Lol, this.

Its the same as when people say, "Im not racist but...", you know that they are most definetly racist on some level or they wouldn't be thinking it in the first place.

mokmoof:
And look, even if you're right, and if there are a whole bunch of people saying "I bees right here waitin' for you, Cap'n" in casual conversation (which I frankly doubt)

You're from the northern states, aren't you? If so, that'd explain your refusal to accept that people actually do talk like that. I went to a high school that was predominantly African American (was formerly a school created for the sole purpose of Segregation), and it was either ebonics or this that I heard from that ethnicity. To be fair, it was the older people that spoke like this.

It's a fact of life that people sound ridiculously different. You're being ridiculous in trying to make racism where there isn't. Just because it was a caricature way of talking way back when, certainly doesn't mean anything of the sort now.

this is pathetic

bubble man clearly has no idea what he's talking about

and square enix are kissing up to anyone offended no matter how rediculos the claim

accents in deus ex games can be very exaggurated, because they're all racits, no.

remember this guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLkokNuIojw

THAT is more racist than a very stong south african accent

super mario is more racist than this

Thedek:

hooksashands:
I'm going to Kentucky tomorrow and pretty much everyone from around there talks like this, black and white.

That kind of depends on the area. May be in eastern KY but it ain't in western. We still have accents but they aren't quite to THAT level.

Nonsense, my friend. I've only been here three days and already heard someone use 'hootenanny', plus you all seem to enjoy crawfish like it's going out of style. Stereotypical? Yes. Offensive? Only if you accept it like I'm trying to be mean.

hooksashands:

Thedek:

hooksashands:
I'm going to Kentucky tomorrow and pretty much everyone from around there talks like this, black and white.

That kind of depends on the area. May be in eastern KY but it ain't in western. We still have accents but they aren't quite to THAT level.

Nonsense, my friend. I've only been here three days and already heard someone use 'hootenanny', plus you all seem to enjoy crawfish like it's going out of style. Stereotypical? Yes. Offensive? Only if you accept it like I'm trying to be mean.

I don't take it offensive. I just question the validity is all.

Granted I use the word "reckon" I great deal. So I'm not saying I'm exempt or nothing. I would think crawdad's are like shrimp and I don't much care for those. You sure you aren't thinking about cajuns? Granted there ain't much a canjun WON'T eat.

mokmoof:
AdumbroDeus, both of your arguments seem to hinge on the issue of realism. Latisha is not a racial caricature because some people sound just like her, and because homeless people really do hustle for money, is what you seem to be saying.

Thing is, whatever Edios et al intended when they put Latisha in the game, I really don't think that what they were going for was realism. This isn't The Wire. The idea is not for an actual homeless person to see the character and say "Yeah, that's just what it's like." Quite the opposite, the company's reaction seems to indicate that the world of DX:HR is supposed to be, in some sense, post-racial--quite unlike our own.

Latisha is not supposed to sound like a real person. It's a stylized performance, which is totally fine in and of itself. What's interesting, again, is that for whatever reason, the specific style they've chosen is pretty closely aligned to minstrel dialogue (which is why I provided a YouTube link in my previous post, to show that that connection is real).

It is also interesting that people see that very mannered characterization and think "That's exactly how homeless black people really are!" or worse yet, "If you're reading racial stereotypes into that totally harmless dialect, then you're the racist one!" The fact that such an historically-situated archetype can just read as generically "poor" or "uneducated" or whatever else people have said in this thread? That proves my point, not yours.

AdumbroDeus:
1. The accent and speech style is common today (ebonics, look it up).

Latisha's speech patterns sound much more like minstrelsy than like modern-day Ebonics. And yes, there is a difference. Snoop Dogg doesn't sound anything like the Kingfish, and Latisha sounds much closer to the latter.

And look, even if you're right, and if there are a whole bunch of people saying "I bees right here waitin' for you, Cap'n" in casual conversation (which I frankly doubt), characters in books and games and movies aren't real people. In media, subservient black characters who talk like Latisha have a very long and odious history, and it's that tradition (not that of the real black people whom you or I happen to know) to which Latisha belongs.

AdumbroDeus:
2. The reality of homeless people is most want to SURVIVE, so they will perform services. Try going to a subway in NYC, homeless people will very commonly perform or do some other type of service to make ends meet in addition to simply begging.

The mere fact that Latisha is a homeless black person "performing services" is not in any way what's at issue here. What's at issue is the specific ways in which this minor black character relates to the white protagonist--the specific way that she genuflects to him, and how she's willing to help him out a whole bunch whether she gets paid or not, and yes, the fact that she sounds more than a little mammyish while doing so.

And again, I think it would be really hard to argue that Latisha is supposed to closely resemble a real homeless person. Edios certainly isn't making that argument, and there's not much in the text to support it, so I'm honestly not sure why you're making it.

AdumbroDeus:
Furthermore, the implications that people are drawing from her dialect (namely that they imply lack of education and sub-subservience) extremely ignorant of black urban culture or openly racist. The message is this, if you want to be judged as an equal, you need to talk like a white person, a different speech pattern automatically identifies you as inferior. On the other hand, other unusual ways of speaking english are nowhere near as looked down upon.

First, the representation of black people is a different matter than the depiction of white southerners, or of Asians, or of whoever it is you're thinking of when you talk about "unusual ways of speaking." Slavery, Reconstruction, and Jim Crow segregation all relied on systematically representing black people as less than human, or incapable of caring for themselves, or irredeemably violent and/or stupid. While there have certainly been horrific racial caricatures of Asians, Irish, Italians, Jews, and others throughout American history, and while those are real histories that should be remembered and addressed, they are not automatically equal to the tradition of dehumanizing or infantilizing black people.

Put simply: There was no period of American history when any of those other groups was considered property, nor were Irish Americans ever joyously and publicly lynched, in large numbers, by white mobs with de facto legal impunity.

Second, you're not arguing honestly when you talk about people "automatically" ascribing inferiority to Latisha because of her shuck-and-jive dialect. She reads as inferior because the text marks her as inferior. Her dialect doesn't exist in isolation; it appears along with her low social status and her subservience to the gravel-voiced white hero. A lot of people seem to think that it lines up naturally, in fact, which is exactly what makes it a problem: Of course she looks and sounds like that! That's just how poor people look and sound!

If Jensen's boss sounded like Latisha, for example, then we would have something to talk about.

Finally, you didn't say that this was a censorship issue, but you're sort of inching toward that argument when you talk about how we "can't" depict homeless people "performing services." So I just want to be clear: I'm not saying Edios shouldn't be allowed to but a minstrel show sort of a character in their game, or any of that sort of alarmist, "PC Police" nonsense. I'm just saying that they wrote the character badly, and I think they did so because they didn't have a handle on the history of the trope they'd chosen.

That Latisha exists is not surprising, or shouldn't be. That people want to talk about Latisha is potentially constructive. There is absolutely no need to get angry at those who want to talk about Latisha, as though racism would suddenly disappear if only we would stop talking about race. That's defensive, unproductive, and tedious.

Frankly, it's supposed to be comparable to homeless people in real cities because that improves the immersion. To use upper class british accents for random real people is immersion breaking.

I don't think that Deus Ex claims to be post-racial, though racial issues didn't directly come to the fore, deus ex doesn't imply those issues have been solved or gotten worse. And different dialects of english will always be present.

And they're not historically situated, the fact that it bears ANY resemblence to historical archtypes is because language evolves over time. The way that she said "sheeeet" alone identifies her as a product of modern urban culture.

As far as the fact that it doesn't match your image of urban culture has a lot to do with the fact that Hollywood's image of suberbia doesn't represent actual suberbia. Media and fantasy are one thing, reality is another.

Finally, your implication of that it's generally infantile is disturbing and racist in and of itself. That the language marks you as poor and uneducated is patently false, it's just part of urban culture and people who hold that culture have a wide variety of educational levels. But ebonics is present regardless, not the dialect of ignorant people but the dialect of a culture.

This is yet another attack on ebonics cloaked as an attack on racism, and these attacks on ebonics while ignoring all the other dialects that are spoken by primarily white populations. Frankly, it's sickening.

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