Eidos Outsourced Those Deux Ex: HR Boss Fights

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Their idea of balancing it was to play through with different guns.

/sigh

Well, that explains quite a bit.

This just in, Eidos Montreal learns what "passing the buck" means!

Even if it was outsourced they should have made it clear what the fight should have and told them to design a non-violent path as well as any other necessary styles. Its an extra few liens of details, its not hard.

He doesn't even try to hide the fact that they shoehorned a paint by numbers boss fight scheme into a game that he knew nothing about until approached with the job, he just talks it up like what he's done isn't exactly the same as every other cookie cutter fps boss fight. What a tool.

Can we please get a patch to undo these boss fights and dlc to remake them into something playable?

Upgraded Typhoon takes care of all the boss fights with ease even on "Give Me Deus Ex". It's cheap: only three praxis points in total. I don't really see what's the big deal. Give the guys a break, they made an excellent game that did the original justice.

What's kind of sad is that the boss fights are actually so close to being interesting.. I found Jaron's fight in particular very atmospheric, although stupidly tough if you make one bad decision earlier in the game. It actually had me shooting at anything that moved at one point. However, the main problem is that all the bosses (except the last one, which I'd only tenuously call a boss fight at all and is actually the best of the bunch to the extent that sections of it reward stealth and hacking ability) are far too mobile and aggressive considering how brutal and quick most of the combat in Human Revolution is.

Also, although I'd hesitate to call it anything but an accident, having the right stealth augmentations does make the latter two fights a lot easier. Mark and track, anyone?

However, we really don't know the full story. It may be that originally Jensen was meant to be a lot more resilient and that even non-combat characters would be able to run around exchanging fire with these man-tanks much more freely. That could have been fun, and wouldn't necessarily have even been terribly frustrating, unless you wanted a non-lethal approach to every fight. But the way it was set up, the Tyrants did kind of need to die.

Speaking of them as a story element, they also needed to be much better integrated and explained in the game so we knew who the fuck they were. They do actually have interesting backstories (Jaron in particular), and for fuck's sake Gunther Hermann was one, merely knowing that would have given them a lot more context within the franchise as a whole. But all of these things only appear in a background novel, why the hell isn't it in the game itself? I understand a blacks ops unit is meant to be secret, but part of playing a Deus Ex game is meant to be uncovering secrets like that. This in particular is where the passing the buck to the guy who did the tech falls down, the failure to integrate them with the wider concept and story was what made the boss fights feel tacked on and unnecessary, and that was definitely Eidos' responsibility.

Characters aren't complex because of 70-80 nodes.

He says they tried it with different guns trying to make it fun, but doesn't understand, what if you didn't have a powerful gun? What if you were the master of stealth, hacking and Q?

sravankb:
- There are four boss fights in Deus EX: HR, each ranging from anywhere between 1-5 minutes.

- Total amount of time spent for boss fights = 20 minutes, max.

- The game lasts for about 25 - 40 hours. Let's say 20 hours.

- The boss fights amount to 1.67% of the entire game, worst case scenario.

- Now here's the best part - people are complaining about it. Not criticizing, not pointing out a flaw, we're talking about full-on bitching here.

Hell. No. They took me a LONG time to finish. Primarily because I had a stealth build and had almost no fire power. It also didn't help that my game glitched out at the end of the final boss (Jensen got stuck to a piece of cover while the enemies showered him with bullets) and had to start it all over. In the end I had to tone down the difficulty every time I encountered a boss and I didn't get the achievement for finishing the game on the Deus Ex difficulty. It does not matter even if the boss battles are "short". After reloading a game for the 20th time you really get to the point where you're almost ready to throw the game in the bin.

I was coming into this not knowing alot about the Deus Ex world

I gotta admit i am a shooter guy

Wait what? is dumb fuck for real? wow Eidos, Outsource fail, how bout u hire me instead? i am a well rounded gamer, and i know Deus Ex pretty much like the back of my fucking hand

The company I work for outsources to a few companies to keep costs down. When the subcontractors fuck up, it's still our fault. I don't blame Grip for not knowing the source material. I blame Eidos for not hiring someone who knows the source material.

I don't know what this guy could do because it seems like he was really out of the loop.
But this is Eidos fault since they just gave it to a guy out of the loop.

Here is how boss fights can improve
1) combat: no comment
2) Stealth: let the player pop in and out like a Predator. Make the enemy have some kind of vision cone.
3) Hacking: disable some enemy weapons, turn on friendly turrets, get special weapons, let the player change the environment, cause boss to "short out" for a second every once in a while.
4) conversation: convince flunky to change environment/ get the boss in a better environment. Convince flunkies to give you weapons, find secret passages, etc. Be able to convince some bosses to surrender when they are low on health (also a way to not have to kill every enemy in the game.) Sprout out custom short speeches that enrage/frighten/overestimate/underestimate the player which changes their AI for a time.

I actually liked the boss battles in Human Revolution compared to the original. The game keeps building up on how awesome and sinister the three you fight are (Anna, Gunther, and Simons). All of them die from one LAM or GEP rocket. I almost feel sorry for them. Simons was reduced to chunky salsa before he even could offer me his evil gloatings. Gunther couldn't even see me with Thermoptic Camo activated. Anna just ran straight into a LAM. Untrained in Heavy Weapons and Explosives.
The boss fights in HR are slightly harder, and much more fun in my opinion. Instead of "RarRar! U bad JC, now u die!" and the boss charges you with an overpowered weapon of the original weapon just like any other enemy, the ones in HR feel unique. I actually replayed them because they were pretty fun in my opinion, like the ones in MGS4.

I don't think it's this guys fault anyway. It's not like Eidos shouldn't be checking their progress, their plans, and so forth as the boss battles are developed. And if they're not doing that they're not doing their job.

sravankb:
- There are four boss fights in Deus EX: HR, each ranging from anywhere between 1-5 minutes.

- Total amount of time spent for boss fights = 20 minutes, max.

- The game lasts for about 25 - 40 hours. Let's say 20 hours.

- The boss fights amount to 1.67% of the entire game, worst case scenario.

- Now here's the best part - people are complaining about it. Not criticizing, not pointing out a flaw, we're talking about full-on bitching here.

This.

Honestly. Even Jaron Namir is easy to beat if you know how. Barrett was a cakewalk if you remember to use all the cannisters and grenades to your advantage, and all Federova requires is that you reember to pack a heavy rifle and your oldschool circle-strafing skills.

So I'm not terribly far, but I liked what boss battles I've been a part of. I'm playing through the game trying to "Ghost" each area, and when I reached Barret, yeah- I got hung up. But maybe because I've played Metal Gear games, I accepted that there was conflict in front of me, and that this game was so multilayered as to have it and play good enough to allow it.

I've had fun. The boss fights don't deserve the bad press.

Horny Ico:
I WANT HIS BLOOOOOOD!

I like shooters and haven't even played the game yet, but taking away my freedom to sneak in a game that promises it is a sin.

HE MUST REPENT. THEY MUST ALL REPENT.

We've really gone way out there, "freedom to sneak" he says.

Those fights were...well I figured out the strategy and it was less than a boss fight. It was less than a stealth encounter with 4 guards. It was pitiful. Even on Hard mode, the exact same strategy worked flawlessly.
I don't care if I can't be stealthy, I'll deal, if I can't enjoy a boss fight, that's a different story.

Zeitgeist1983:

David Bray:
DLC is needed to fix this

Agreed!

Sad day indeed when gamers ask for paid DLC to do what patches should do for free...

Ldude893:

Nicolaus99:
This sounds like a job for the Spanish Inquisition!

Well, I didn't expect somebody mentioning the Spanish Inquisition.

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

Heh, the more I replay the game the less I hate the boss fights. I actually enjoy unloading all my unused ammo. And the third boss fight, if properly exploited, is pure hilarity. Knocking out the guy in one punch.

I don't see the problem. EVen with a stealth build, I'm beating the bosses with no more than 3 tries by simply using logic.

midij19:
1-5 minutes is only if you already know how to beat a boss, otherwise you're stuck staring at the "oh so helpful" loading screen. given the game took ~20 hours the first battle, for me, took 1.5 hours 90% of that time spent loading and subsequently getting butchered in seconds just because I was a hacker/meelee/pacifist.
when a game tempts you to rege-quit it kind of defeats the purpose.
inb4 "there's the easy mode"; some players see it as something worse than rage-quting

gotta agree on the easy-mode, i played a fair few games on easy-mode then realized what a bad thing i was doing cheating myself out of a difficult play through that made me immerse myself and really think what i should do

ive set the difficulty to max on every game since my ps2, because if i don't then i haven't really played it have i ? i just looked at pretty pictures and pressed buttons

midij19:
1-5 minutes is only if you already know how to beat a boss, otherwise you're stuck staring at the "oh so helpful" loading screen. given the game took ~20 hours the first battle, for me, took 1.5 hours 90% of that time spent loading and subsequently getting butchered in seconds just because I was a hacker/meelee/pacifist.
when a game tempts you to rege-quit it kind of defeats the purpose.
inb4 "there's the easy mode"; some players see it as something worse than rage-quting

gotta agree on the easy-mode, i played a fair few games on easy-mode then realized what a bad thing i was doing cheating myself out of a difficult play through that made me immerse myself and really think what i should do

ive set the difficulty to max on every game since my ps2, because if i don't then i haven't really played it have i ? i just looked at pretty pictures and pressed buttons

Earnest Cavalli:
In the course of that five-minute clip, Kruszewski refers to himself as a "shooter guy" and explains that Eidos Montreal essentially gave his firm the tech and gameplay design of the game, then let Grip craft boss fights based on that alone.

While I've yet to play the game myself, I believe this would be the main reason why the boss fights alledgedly suck. You can't have an immersive, well-thought-out bossfight if some other company just got the tech details to work it out and do it. Eidos remains responsibly for the slip-up, seeing as it was their job to (at the very least) provide them with additional information to flesh out the boss-characters, or (even better) to actually integrate the bossfights themselves into the main story line, thus obliging them to introduce the bosses earlier on, etc, etc, etc...

TL;DR-version: it's still Eidos' fault, not the subcontractor's. (Do correct me if I'm wrong. Everything I've posted here is based on the reviews I've seen so far.)

Mygaffer:

Horny Ico:
I WANT HIS BLOOOOOOD!

I like shooters and haven't even played the game yet, but taking away my freedom to sneak in a game that promises it is a sin.

HE MUST REPENT. THEY MUST ALL REPENT.

We've really gone way out there, "freedom to sneak" he says.

Where out has who gone? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

David Bray:
DLC is needed to fix this

Oohhh, nice idea ! I don't think it would be difficult to implement...

Venereus:

Zeitgeist1983:

David Bray:
DLC is needed to fix this

Agreed!

Sad day indeed when gamers ask for paid DLC to do what patches should do for free...

You know that DLC doesn't assume you have to pay for it, right ?
It just mean Downloadable Content... there exist free DLC.

A patch would change the game for everyone, without anyone having anything to say about it, while a DLC could be optional.

I went combat build every time, just cause I love the feel of the combat, it's very smooth and tactile (and this is the PC version I'm referring to), so boss battles were just par for the course.

I have criticisms about the middle boss fight with the fembot but they really shouldn't have outsourced the most important milestone in the game. Yahtzee made the best statement on this: Boss fights should be a final exam of what you learned up to that point.

Grip entertainment deserves criticism for not taking stealth builds into consideration. It was jock douchebag laziness to go for balls-out-full-hard-on-erection-stars-and-stripes combat as the only solution for them. Still I was a combat and hack build, so I got through with some challenge. they were fun, but I truly feel the stealth builders' pain. Their criticisms are VERY warranted.

I'd definitely say they both dropped the ball. On one hand even for what they were the boss fights were a big disappointment, but on the other hand they shouldn't have been what they were and that's on eidos. They even felt somewhat slapped into it. For instance on the second boss fight in the computer room, after you beat the boss she's lying there dying and someone even hints that you could save her. But it doesn't go anywhere, you start talking about something else and the boss is put out of sight and out of mind.

Difficulty aside, the boss fights were a disappointment because no matter what you were while playing through the game, when that boss fight came around you were a hardcore killin man. That's not what I played the first one for, and it's not what I played this one for. Plenty of crappy fps games out there for this stuff.

The game itself ? Yeah the game is fucking amazing, the boss battles were the only thing I didn't like about it.

The boss fights were the last straw for me. Everything in that game has been done in other games but better. It combines all these elements and none of them rise above mediocrity. Also the game just doesn't have that special 'something' that keeps you invested.

Do all the rationalizing you want but I have a feeling there's going to be a lot 'average Joe's'(with average to great health) who won't put up with it.

I have a feeling this sort of thing happens quite often with AA titles. If anyone higher than an intern did any of the level design in most of the MW2 levels, I'll eat my hat. It's all farmed out and chased by bucketloads of cash.

I haven't understood the complaints about the boss fights from the start. I guess some players blame the game for their sucking.

The first two Deus Ex game's bosses were the same way. You couldn't sneak past Agent Navarro in the airplane. You could do things like blockade the door to prevent her script from firing or mine Gunther's route so he dies before force-greeting but those are bug exploits, not intentional gameplay methods.

Also, for folks who bitch about wanting to speak/sneak/hack to win fights there are several conversations that're effectively speech challenge boss confrontations. I loved those. You've a dichotomy between talking folks down and fighting them as opposed to character's like The Master you can defeat by the method of your choosing but I'm fine with having characters you can only defeat one way or another. Hacking isn't very viable during combat b/c you can be hurth while hacking in Human Revolution and a sneaking option would just mean skipping the boss battle. You can turn invisible to get to cover, avoid combat, and regenerate so it's still viable.

Even on the "Give me Deus Ex" setting my complaints w/the boss battles are
1) They were really easy. Set off a few maxed Typhoons and it's over in under a minute.
2) Worse set-ups. The bosses are just mercenaries you're getting revenge on and a chick who escaped in cutscenes. Each of Deus Ex's boss characters had alot of set-up before you fought them. You knew who they were, had worked with them in some cases, understood their motivations, had events which had changed your relationship, and the battles felt significant because of these elements.

Finally, I feel bad for this guy and his team/Eidos. Supposedly there's alot of different behaviours the bosses can switch between but I didn't notice an AI improvement vs. any shooter I've played in the 2000s.

The boss battles weren't bad in and of themselves. They were bad because they didn't flow with the rest of the game. The characters themselves weren't introduced in any meaningful way, and the player was bottlenecked into a toe to toe fight with them in an otherwise open game. So in my estimation, this whole thing is completely Eidos fault. They farmed out work without clearly communicating what they wanted.

Incidentally, I didn't ave much problem with the bosses, because in games like this, I'm always paranoid about overspecialization. I was mostly stealth/non-lethal, but I tried to balance my build, and always kept 2 or three points open in case I needed a specific augmentation in a specific situation. This came in handy in more than just the boss fights.

Ultimately, Eidos failed to communicate what they wanted, and signed off on what was delivered.

GeorgW:
Eidos dude 1: "People are disliking one thing about our amazing game! How can we avoid the criticism while still garnering the love from the rest of the game?"
Eidos dude 2: "Let's blame it on someone!"
Eidos dude 1: "Promote that man!"

This is all well and good, but it seems just a little too convenient. Still, I love Eidos, and the blame should be dealt equally.

That the boss fights are outsourced isn't news, you know? It has actually been a known fact for quite a while.

Athinira:

GeorgW:
Eidos dude 1: "People are disliking one thing about our amazing game! How can we avoid the criticism while still garnering the love from the rest of the game?"
Eidos dude 2: "Let's blame it on someone!"
Eidos dude 1: "Promote that man!"

This is all well and good, but it seems just a little too convenient. Still, I love Eidos, and the blame should be dealt equally.

That the boss fights are outsourced isn't news, you know? It has actually been a known fact for quite a while.

And you do know that this post was made in September?

GeorgW:

Athinira:

GeorgW:
Eidos dude 1: "People are disliking one thing about our amazing game! How can we avoid the criticism while still garnering the love from the rest of the game?"
Eidos dude 2: "Let's blame it on someone!"
Eidos dude 1: "Promote that man!"

This is all well and good, but it seems just a little too convenient. Still, I love Eidos, and the blame should be dealt equally.

That the boss fights are outsourced isn't news, you know? It has actually been a known fact for quite a while.

And you do know that this post was made in September?

No, didn't look.

Screw old threads who pop up on the front page >_> :)

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