EA Germany has denied claims made by German gamers and journalists that its Origin service is invading their privacy.
Germany's privacy laws are amongst the toughest in the Western world. It should come as no surprise that EA's Origin service - which is mandatory for gamers wishing to play Battlefield 3 on PC, and has been criticized for invasion of privacy before - has come under fire in the country known for challenging Google streetview and banning the Facebook "Like" button. German gamers are taking the situation pretty seriously.
The furore began a few days ago, when pictures that appeared to show Origin accessing non-related programs and data synced from cell phones were released online. Der Spiegel, one of the biggest newspapers in Germany, responded by printing a list of items from the Origin EULA which it claims could contravene German privacy law. German gamers responded by bombing Battlefield 3's Amazon.de rating down to one of the lowest on the site and returning their store-bought copies of the game. In an unusual move that illustrates the seriousness of this situation, high street giants Saturn and Media Markt have both started giving customers full refunds on used copies of the game, even those with used PC keys.
Now EA Germany has responded by updating Origin's EULA to ensure both "clarity" and "legal compliance." In a statement, the company said that, "EA takes the privacy of its users very seriously. We have taken every precaution to protect the personal and anonymous user data collected."
"We do not have access to information such as pictures, documents or personal data, which have nothing to do with the execution of the Origin program on the system of the player, neither will they be collected by us," it continued. "We have updated the End User License Agreement of Origin, in the interests of our players to create more clarity."
The statement also notes that Origin's privacy policies are "industry-standard" and that the company intends to work with "the relevant Government agencies to ensure that our policies are and remain legally compliant."
If the comments on Battlefield 3's Amazon.de page are anything to go by, German gamers are genuinely outraged by Origin's snooping activities. Many of the comments are lengthy diatribes written in German so angry that Google Translate is rendered almost useless (the one thing that is clear, though, is the repeated phrase "Nein danke" - "No thanks"). Understandably, many of them say that they just want to play their games without having to give EA access to their system data. There's a wider debate to be had over whether or not companies should highlight these parts of their EULAs, and about whether or not they should be forcing people to sign up for them just to access widely-anticipated titles. We'll keep an eye out for developments, but right now, these German gamers have made their thoughts abundantly clear.
"when pictures that appeared to show Origin accessing non-related programs and data synced from cell phones were released online"
This is in the EULA, and that has been extremely well documented BEFORE it went into the 'wild'. So these complainers can find gaming websites to cry foul, but neglect to read up on this outrageous spying before buying? Strange!
If the snooping activities are against the law anyway, the EULA is meaningless, As anything that is against the law cant be changed by EULA. So the only case where the eula protects the company is when it doesnt need a eula anyway. So if EA is snooping, it is considered to be at the same level as other maleware for german courts.
Whatever you say, EA. I'll believe it when I see irrefutable evidence that your software does not spy on me in any way. The state commissioner of Nordrhein-Westfalen is coming to get answers with a metaphorical rubber glove, so lube up and bend over; until the presentation of conclusive evidence, any PR comments of yours are nothing but hot air to me.
Kenjitsuka: "when pictures that appeared to show Origin accessing non-related programs and data synced from cell phones were released online"
This is in the EULA, and that has been extremely well documented BEFORE it went into the 'wild'. So these complainers can find gaming websites to cry foul, but neglect to read up on this outrageous spying before buying? Strange!
Yes, of course it is in the EULA. However, the EULA isn't lawful either in germany, as you must know (on the box or whatever) beforehand what you are going to sign. Also, the EULA isn't allowed to break the law either, and while lobbyists are continiously trying to destroy them, the german privacy laws are quite good and prevent such things. What origin is doing is not lawful in any sense, and no amount of EULA will change that.
On another note: it is "Der Spiegel", not "Der Speigel". "Spiegel" means mirror.
Sonicron: Whatever you say, EA. I'll believe it when I see irrefutable evidence that your software does not spy on me in any way. The state commissioner of Nordrhein-Westfalen is coming to get answers with a metaphorical rubber glove, so lube up and bend over; until the presentation of conclusive evidence, any PR comments of yours are nothing but hot air to me.
You can't really prove the absence of something in a software, especially closed source ones. EA can say all the want, it is no proof. Also, even if origin were open source, you could only trust it if you read, understand and compile the source yourself, which nobody would do.
Last i heard, origin basically could access everything on your computer and everything you did or had done on it too, i dont know if this was just scare mongering, but if its even partly true im surprised only germany is taking issue with this.
But then all i ever hear about origins is how it seems to ignore little things like laws and privacy...
This is very good to see; Origin is spyware, and German gamers are displaying their righteous outrage over it!
I'm less ecstatic that I don't see any such reactions here in suburban America. In fact, most reactions seem to be along the lines of "I think they slightly altered the EULA or something, who cares it's Battlefield 3."
sigh... this again... im sorry but i couldnt care less what origin does.. i have a facebook acount, i have a steam acount, i have a itunes acount, my info is prob passed around all over from those companies yet origin keeps taking the flak for something that just about every other company does
There's been an image circulating in Germany of Origin accessing tax forms on a computer - though as to whether it's legit I cannot say. Still, the press here is really abysmal for EA, and rightfully so - even the Terms of Service alone are worthy of every bit of bad press.
As for being in the EU, i was unaware we suffered the same data collection treatment. To my knowledge, this was only put into effect in the US soil. It was that or something else...i dun remember.
Sonicron: Whatever you say, EA. I'll believe it when I see irrefutable evidence that your software does not spy on me in any way. The state commissioner of Nordrhein-Westfalen is coming to get answers with a metaphorical rubber glove, so lube up and bend over; until the presentation of conclusive evidence, any PR comments of yours are nothing but hot air to me.
You can't really prove the absence of something in a software, especially closed source ones. EA can say all the want, it is no proof. Also, even if origin were open source, you could only trust it if you read, understand and compile the source yourself, which nobody would do.
There will be folks whose job it is to determine whether Origin is playing fair or not. Don't tell me it can't be done - it can. And it will. This is now a legal matter, and if it is determined Origin's methods constitute foul play, heads will roll. The evidence will be presented fully (anything else would not be accepted, seeing how this matter has garnered attention from the media), and I'll make any further decisions based on that.
Alarion: There's been an image circulating in Germany of Origin accessing tax forms on a computer - though as to whether it's legit I cannot say. Still, the press here is really abysmal for EA, and rightfully so - even the Terms of Service alone are worthy of every bit of bad press.
silverbullet1989: sigh... this again... im sorry but i couldnt care less what origin does.. i have a facebook acount, i have a steam acount, i have a itunes acount, my info is prob passed around all over from those companies yet origin keeps taking the flak for something that just about every other company does
There is a difference between that. Facebook? You are willingly giving the information to them for a service. Steam? You are asked if you want to upload the information, again willingly aggreing. Same with iTunes. Origin however simply leeches the information of you, with you having no say in it. For me (as a professional programmer) that is the definition of spyware.
By the Old Ones, EA, you just can't get anything right, can you? BF3 has just been one horrible design choice after another. Which is a shame, because the actual *game* is competently done. It's just all the higher-ups that are making it horrible.
Gotta say, I'm not saddened that BF3 is failing so hard. Serves 'em right.
On an aside, everyone knows that German EA only releases Medicware, gentlemen.
I find it funny how there's an issue now with people unable to join matches on BF3, and one of the causes is that their anti-spyware programs are blocking Origin and BF3. And now this. Funny.
all i have to say about privacy issues is: sandboxing FTW! or just blocking it from touching anything but 256 MB of its folder... or running it in virtual machine
John Mandrake: all i have to say about privacy issues is: sandboxing FTW! or just blocking it from touching anything but 256 MB of its folder... or running it in virtual machine
Sandboxing can cause problems with the game as well, and using a virtual machine is totally out of the question, as you bf3 would have to run in th vm as well. That can't end well, I promise.
silverbullet1989: sigh... this again... im sorry but i couldnt care less what origin does.. i have a facebook acount, i have a steam acount, i have a itunes acount, my info is prob passed around all over from those companies yet origin keeps taking the flak for something that just about every other company does
There is a difference between that. Facebook? You are willingly giving the information to them for a service. Steam? You are asked if you want to upload the information, again willingly aggreing. Same with iTunes. Origin however simply leeches the information of you, with you having no say in it. For me (as a professional programmer) that is the definition of spyware.
not quite...both facebook and steam do not voluntarily collect info like origin, but say, your game crashes in steam. that crash creates an automatic bug report, sent to valve. that bug report may contain hardware n software info. but to a point, Origin DOES cross the line in my opinion. when you upload personal files, as many germans have reported, youre gonna get fucked. and since its germany, you basically are gonna get fucked by all Europe in court.
Sonicron: Whatever you say, EA. I'll believe it when I see irrefutable evidence that your software does not spy on me in any way. The state commissioner of Nordrhein-Westfalen is coming to get answers with a metaphorical rubber glove, so lube up and bend over; until the presentation of conclusive evidence, any PR comments of yours are nothing but hot air to me.
You can't really prove the absence of something in a software, especially closed source ones. EA can say all the want, it is no proof. Also, even if origin were open source, you could only trust it if you read, understand and compile the source yourself, which nobody would do.
There will be folks whose job it is to determine whether Origin is playing fair or not. Don't tell me it can't be done - it can. And it will. This is now a legal matter, and if it is determined Origin's methods constitute foul play, heads will roll. The evidence will be presented fully (anything else would not be accepted, seeing how this matter has garnered attention from the media), and I'll make any further decisions based on that.
Of course there will, however they will only be able to assess the symptoms (that is, it not grabbing data).
John Mandrake: all i have to say about privacy issues is: sandboxing FTW! or just blocking it from touching anything but 256 MB of its folder... or running it in virtual machine
silverbullet1989: sigh... this again... im sorry but i couldnt care less what origin does.. i have a facebook acount, i have a steam acount, i have a itunes acount, my info is prob passed around all over from those companies yet origin keeps taking the flak for something that just about every other company does
There is a difference between that. Facebook? You are willingly giving the information to them for a service. Steam? You are asked if you want to upload the information, again willingly aggreing. Same with iTunes. Origin however simply leeches the information of you, with you having no say in it. For me (as a professional programmer) that is the definition of spyware.
not quite...both facebook and steam do not voluntarily collect info like origin, but say, your game crashes in steam. that crash creates an automatic bug report, sent to valve. that bug report may contain hardware n software info. but to a point, Origin DOES cross the line in my opinion. when you upload personal files, as many germans have reported, youre gonna get fucked. and since its germany, you basically are gonna get fucked by all Europe in court.
not quite...both facebook and steam do noI said exactly what you said. You have a say in what information you provide with facebook, steam, iTunes. Not so with origin.
There's a wider debate to be had over whether or not companies should highlight these parts of their EULAs, and about whether or not they should be forcing people to sign up for them just to access widely-anticipated titles.
I know none of us read the terms and conditions to any of the games we play, but because someone actually DID read the Origins EULA, we are having this discussion. Its stupid to highlight any part of the EULA, people should just learn to read them instead of clicking and agreeing blindly (don't worry, I do it too)
You can't really prove the absence of something in a software, especially closed source ones. EA can say all the want, it is no proof. Also, even if origin were open source, you could only trust it if you read, understand and compile the source yourself, which nobody would do.
There will be folks whose job it is to determine whether Origin is playing fair or not. Don't tell me it can't be done - it can. And it will. This is now a legal matter, and if it is determined Origin's methods constitute foul play, heads will roll. The evidence will be presented fully (anything else would not be accepted, seeing how this matter has garnered attention from the media), and I'll make any further decisions based on that.
Of course there will, however they will only be able to assess the symptoms (that is, it not grabbing data).
John Mandrake: all i have to say about privacy issues is: sandboxing FTW! or just blocking it from touching anything but 256 MB of its folder... or running it in virtual machine
There is a difference between that. Facebook? You are willingly giving the information to them for a service. Steam? You are asked if you want to upload the information, again willingly aggreing. Same with iTunes. Origin however simply leeches the information of you, with you having no say in it. For me (as a professional programmer) that is the definition of spyware.
not quite...both facebook and steam do not voluntarily collect info like origin, but say, your game crashes in steam. that crash creates an automatic bug report, sent to valve. that bug report may contain hardware n software info. but to a point, Origin DOES cross the line in my opinion. when you upload personal files, as many germans have reported, youre gonna get fucked. and since its germany, you basically are gonna get fucked by all Europe in court.
John Mandrake: all i have to say about privacy issues is: sandboxing FTW! or just blocking it from touching anything but 256 MB of its folder... or running it in virtual machine
There is a difference between that. Facebook? You are willingly giving the information to them for a service. Steam? You are asked if you want to upload the information, again willingly aggreing. Same with iTunes. Origin however simply leeches the information of you, with you having no say in it. For me (as a professional programmer) that is the definition of spyware.
not quite...both facebook and steam do not voluntarily collect info like origin, but say, your game crashes in steam. that crash creates an automatic bug report, sent to valve. that bug report may contain hardware n software info. but to a point, Origin DOES cross the line in my opinion. when you upload personal files, as many germans have reported, youre gonna get fucked. and since its germany, you basically are gonna get fucked by all Europe in court.
I said exactly what you said. You have a say in what information you provide with facebook, steam, iTunes. Not so with origin.
actually theres quite a bit of infamy that facebook collects data in shady ways. i dunno bout iTunes. and as for the bug reports in steam i said, they are automatic. you cannot choose to not send it. if you crash your game, the bug is auto sent to steam. you cant stop it. but its only hardware n software info. that is a grey area for some people, not for me thou...and by that i mean, i dont think its harmful.
A friend of mine told me about a person who created software to monitor Origin's activities.
He was a bit dissatisfied when he found it going through his declarations, understandably enough.
If I was a better programmer, I'd think of a way to conceal that data from Origin. Possibly by a virtual PC setup, which would be allowed to access the system resources needed to run smoothly... but one that'd be completely empty. I'm most likely talking crap, though =3 I have no idea whether or not that'd be doable.
*cough* Sorry about that. Hrm. EA is evil. Naturally, everything branding the EA logo made by EA people (not necessarily those bought by EA) is taking from it (like father like son?). I will -never- -ever- install Origin. You can't pay me enough to install that crap.
one technical thing first: Der Spiegel is not a newspaper, but a news magazine, like TIME magazine.
i am actually confused here because the vast amount of people now up in arms about this didn't care when it was revealed that the several (read almost all) German law enforcement agencies were using trojans (and really bad ones that leave a permanent back door) to spy on peoples computers despite the fact that our highest court of law ruled that they may not do so.
OT: it's Germany, we are really good at bitching and complaining while drinking/on the internet but not much else. seriously if there will never be a revolution in Germany because when push comes to shove people would stay home if the revolution does not have proper government permissions and such. people here would not even storm a train station without buying a ticket.
Still need to get to learning German. Good on them for standing up to privacy endangerment. Efficient to; all we do is bitch about not wanting origin spying on us, some(myself included) refuse to download it, and the germans? well they get shit done.
The worst thing for me is, I already have this piece of crap on my PC because of Crysis 2 (though back then it was called the EA Download Manager). All I can do now is keep it switched off and pray it doesn't have some method of snooping around my system anyway.
Even if it wasn't, which I'm sure it probably is still. I wouldn't buy any game that forces me to use origin. I refuse to play a game that forces a constant internet connection. It isn't going to happen.
actually theres quite a bit of infamy that facebook collects data in shady ways. i dunno bout iTunes. and as for the bug reports in steam i said, they are automatic. you cannot choose to not send it. if you crash your game, the bug is auto sent to steam. you cant stop it. but its only hardware n software info. that is a grey area for some people, not for me thou...and by that i mean, i dont think its harmful.
So Facebook is infamous for privacy issues? Is that why people complain and give Facebook a hard time and then Facebook keep having to change the way their setup works, off the back of those complains? Isn't that demonstrating that if you have a problem with the way a service treats your privacy, you should complain and push back against it.
And at the end of the day you control what info you give the Facebook by how much of your life you are posting on there.
As for the bug reports from Steam they say in their privacy policy that the info sent in bug reports is rendered anonymous.
"Valve software automatically generates and submits to Valve bug reports upon a crash or other fault in the Valve software. This automatically generated bug report information may include information about other software or hardware on a user's system. Valve does not associate and store the automatically generated bug report information with personally identifiable information." From: http://www.valvesoftware.com/privacy.html
I would still prefer this to be optional though as are bug report sent out to Microsoft when Windows has an issue.
Origin is another front on intrusion into privacy and is doing things that the other services you have mentioned are not and hence deserves all the flak it is getting. It is just a shame that people in Germany have only just woken up to this when it has been know about for the last couple of months now. Are there people using this as an excuse to return a game they have decided they don't like, I bet there is. That's EA's own fault for leaving themselves open to this kind of blow back.
Next we will get comments from EA that they are surprised by this reaction, that is when they will lose all credibility...
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EA Germany: "Origin Is Not Spyware"
EA Germany has denied claims made by German gamers and journalists that its Origin service is invading their privacy.
Germany's privacy laws are amongst the toughest in the Western world. It should come as no surprise that EA's Origin service - which is mandatory for gamers wishing to play Battlefield 3 on PC, and has been criticized for invasion of privacy before - has come under fire in the country known for challenging Google streetview and banning the Facebook "Like" button. German gamers are taking the situation pretty seriously.
The furore began a few days ago, when pictures that appeared to show Origin accessing non-related programs and data synced from cell phones were released online. Der Spiegel, one of the biggest newspapers in Germany, responded by printing a list of items from the Origin EULA which it claims could contravene German privacy law. German gamers responded by bombing Battlefield 3's Amazon.de rating down to one of the lowest on the site and returning their store-bought copies of the game. In an unusual move that illustrates the seriousness of this situation, high street giants Saturn and Media Markt have both started giving customers full refunds on used copies of the game, even those with used PC keys.
Now EA Germany has responded by updating Origin's EULA to ensure both "clarity" and "legal compliance." In a statement, the company said that, "EA takes the privacy of its users very seriously. We have taken every precaution to protect the personal and anonymous user data collected."
"We do not have access to information such as pictures, documents or personal data, which have nothing to do with the execution of the Origin program on the system of the player, neither will they be collected by us," it continued. "We have updated the End User License Agreement of Origin, in the interests of our players to create more clarity."
The statement also notes that Origin's privacy policies are "industry-standard" and that the company intends to work with "the relevant Government agencies to ensure that our policies are and remain legally compliant."
If the comments on Battlefield 3's Amazon.de page are anything to go by, German gamers are genuinely outraged by Origin's snooping activities. Many of the comments are lengthy diatribes written in German so angry that Google Translate is rendered almost useless (the one thing that is clear, though, is the repeated phrase "Nein danke" - "No thanks"). Understandably, many of them say that they just want to play their games without having to give EA access to their system data. There's a wider debate to be had over whether or not companies should highlight these parts of their EULAs, and about whether or not they should be forcing people to sign up for them just to access widely-anticipated titles. We'll keep an eye out for developments, but right now, these German gamers have made their thoughts abundantly clear.
Source: Eurogamer
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