Square Enix Wants a New Final Fantasy Every Year

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Kitsuna10060:

Shark Wrangler:
I'll tell you what they need to do, leave Final Fantasy alone and work on these damn games instead.

1. Einhander 2

2. Another Chrono trigger or Chrono Cross

3. Secret of Evermore 2

4. Another Secret of Mana or Legend of Mana game

T-T i love you for mentioning Einhander

but instead of a new CT or CC, how about Seiken Densetsu 3 re-release
another Mana or Evermore game would be good, so long as its done right this time -.-

OT: really? so ... they place to release more meh games? and they plan on doing what to make these games actually worth while? a new RPG every year is not a good idea, the reason CoD/BF or assassins creed can get away with it is game play reasons, something Final Fantasy isn't known for, they >.> used to be know for good story's.

They also use to be known for releasing games every 1 to 2 years. I would like a NA release of Secret of Mana 2 (Seiken Densetsu 3).

NickCaligo42:

Crono1973:

NickCaligo42:
Right. Just like that. Only we get clones of FF13 instead of clones of FF7.

We didn't get clones of Final Fantasy 7. 8, 9 and 10 were all their own games (to their own detriment).

They're essentially based off the same turn-based combat, the same party dynamics, and the same exploration mechanics. They change up the metagame, yeah, but they're built on the same foundation. My argument is we'd get the same situation today, but FF13 would be our foundation this time--and it's a weak-ass foundation.

Those mechanics are JRPG mechanics and had nothing to do with the engine. In fact, the NES and SNES games had the same mechanics.

NickCaligo42:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, oh man, that was a good one, haha, ha...

Good luck with that, Square. Seriously, you can't do a game right in five years? I'd hate to see you trying to stick to a deadline.

The funny thing is, that's how we used to get Final Fantasy games. Every so often there'd be one that took like two or three years, but in its heyday they actually did crank a new one out each year. Problem with that strategy in this day and age being that... well... we'd be having them built on the FF13 engine.

Sure about that bro?

Games they've released within the last 5 years:

Crisis Core from 2007, sold a good 350,000 copies. Nothing huge, but was definately not a bad game (alot of people like it more than FF7 now)

Dissidia, the first one sold 1 million copies back in '09. Enough to warrant a sequel:

Dissidia Duodecim, released a little over a year ago, didn't sell AS well, but still outsold the 3DS in terms of first week sales.

Then there's Kingdom hearts. Specifically Birth by Sleep. Released a little over a year ago, 800,000+ in japan alone.

Then there's that game that everyone seems to think is a failure, FF13. Released a year ago... again. 6.2 million copies worldwide.

What am I getting at with all this number flinging? Square Enix is not a 1 trick pony. Yes, they got mixed reviews with FF13. It's a very "love it/hate it" game. Much like FF8 was. Yes, they absolutely BOMBED on FF14. Quite possibly a bigger flop than the Spirits Within movie.

But they still have a relatively decent track record I'd say. Those are not CoD or Skyrim sales numbers by any means, but they're holding their own for the time being. All it takes is a good game into the main series to put them back on top again. I still have some faith in em.

Crono1973:

NickCaligo42:

Crono1973:

We didn't get clones of Final Fantasy 7. 8, 9 and 10 were all their own games (to their own detriment).

They're essentially based off the same turn-based combat, the same party dynamics, and the same exploration mechanics. They change up the metagame, yeah, but they're built on the same foundation. My argument is we'd get the same situation today, but FF13 would be our foundation this time--and it's a weak-ass foundation.

Those mechanics are JRPG mechanics and had nothing to do with the engine. In fact, the NES and SNES games had the same mechanics.

That's not really the point.

Dear Squeenix.

The reason CoD and the like get new games out every year is because their game is a simplistic FPS that brings nothing new to the table and is essentially a map pack for the previous game.

You can't do that with RPG's of the kind you make.

Crono1973:

SodaDew:
In theory, More time = Better quality so... Less time = Worse quality.

That explains the low quality of the SNES, PS1 and early PS2 games to the high quality of the late PS2 and current gen games. Wait...

hmm good point, I guess i should have said "in theory with modern games"

So even less focus on quality then, good to know I can keep avoiding their shitty games like the plague.

So how about Versus XIII, huh? You damn bastards. One of the only things I agree on with that Jim guy is his plan for Square to have only two announcements for every game that has yet to be released.

So, when they finally run themselves into the ground, what will be the title for the next Hail Mary game that saves them (knowing that "Dead or Alive is already taken)?

VondeVon:

Marshall Honorof:
but what do Final Fantasy fans really want: consistency or innovation?

Well seeing as they're failing at innovation, I'll take the consistency.

Seriously, better odds of there being something enjoyable.

Nope, just consistent boring suck.

People really need to brush up on their Final Fantasy history, because this wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for them.

Final Fantasy VII - 1997
Final Fantasy Tactics - 1998
Final Fantasy VIII - 1999
Final Fantasy IX - 2000
Final Fantasy X - 2001
Final Fantasy XI - 2003 (2002 in Japan)

For five years there was a major new title every year, with XI coming out only two years after X. It wasn't until XII that things started to slow down considerably.

And most people would say that that period between '97 and '01 was their best work, too.

New final fantasy every year,
Not new kingdom hearts every couple of years.
where the fuck is my KH3 Square fucking where?
and not that ds shit.

NickCaligo42:

Crono1973:

NickCaligo42:

They're essentially based off the same turn-based combat, the same party dynamics, and the same exploration mechanics. They change up the metagame, yeah, but they're built on the same foundation. My argument is we'd get the same situation today, but FF13 would be our foundation this time--and it's a weak-ass foundation.

Those mechanics are JRPG mechanics and had nothing to do with the engine. In fact, the NES and SNES games had the same mechanics.

That's not really the point.

I think it will be ok. I think they can take more risks if they don't have to gamble everything on ONE big game per generation.

It's pretty sad that the NES saw three titles in 3 years. SNES saw three titles in 3 years. PS1 saw three titles in 3 years but with the PS2 began the slowdown with only 3 titles (not counting MMO's) in 5 years and this generation we have seen only ONE title in 5 years. If XIII-2 doesn't get delayed that's 2 titles in the longest console generation yet.

Robomega:
People really need to brush up on their Final Fantasy history, because this wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for them.

Final Fantasy VII - 1997
Final Fantasy Tactics - 1998
Final Fantasy VIII - 1999
Final Fantasy IX - 2000
Final Fantasy X - 2001
Final Fantasy XI - 2003 (2002 in Japan)

For five years there was a major new title every year, with XI coming out only two years after X. It wasn't until XII that things started to slow down considerably.

And most people would say that that period between '97 and '01 was their best work, too.

Most people don't count Tactics because it's a spin-off or XI because it's an MMO. In the same light, most people don't say World of Warcraft is Warcraft 4.

Marshall Honorof:
"I think we took a little too long getting [Final Fantasy XIII] out," says Yoshinori Kitase

Ahaha yes clearly that was the problem with FF13! It took too long to produce! Bahaha

Yet more proof that Squenix has gone off the fucking rails

I've heard it said that series has been going downhill since all the original talent has since left for other companies, but I was willing to stand up for Squeenix - they have made some good games and I liked XII and even X-2 (gameplay-wise, anyway), so I was content to let XIII go by as a failed experiment, like II (JP) was. I was willing to overlook the emphasis on sequels they seem so fond of, in spite of how mediocre many of those games were.

But this? This is just...no. Releasing a game every year is not always a good idea. I mean yeah, CoD and AC do it, but so does Dynasty/Samurai Warriors and Madden (and much as I love me some Dynasty Warriors, those games aren't exactly polished). And you want to do that with a series that has been known for 25 years for its lengthy, complex stories and top-of-the-line audiovisuals?

I mean, they're welcome to try - I sure can't stop them - but this does not seem anywhere near the vicinity of a good idea...

EDIT: Robomega makes a valid point in terms of Square having done this before, and I did like all those games (though 8's praise comes with a few caveats IMO). Maybe forcing the dev team to a stricter timeline can yield results, but I still believe they need to try and win back some of the fanbase's confidence after XIII's lackluster reception and the whole FFXI-2...I'm sorry, "FFXIV" debacle.

I guess a wait-and-see approach will be appropriate for the time being. This philosophy (if it goes into effect) could either whip the devs back into shape or turn FF into a cheap, mass-produced pile of bleh. I'm not optimistic, but hey, it could work out...I hope.

At this rate, we'll be getting FF games that are so linear they'll make 13 look like fucking Oblivion by comparison.

Part of me wants to scream out to them to make a darker style Final Fantasy that's rather morally ambiguous ala Drakengard with more old school style gameplay...but seeing as I'm already in the process of writing the story and script for such a game I'd prefer not to sully my chances and simply say that Enix need to do something different with the character archtypes that they have for their games.

If this results in more Tactics games then great. If this results in more games with the -# (FFX-2 being an example) or games with the story and structure of XIII then FFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU.

Infernai:
At this rate, we'll be getting FF games that are so linear they'll make 13 look like fucking Oblivion by comparison.

Pretty sure that creating 60 hours worth of linear gameplay (ie, no backtracking) takes alot more work (and money) than making an open world and filling those 60 hours with quests and a user generated story. I wonder how much a game like Skyrim costed compared to a cinematic, linear game like Final Fantasy XIII.

As long as they focus on level design and character design instead of graphics and FMV's, then I'm all for it.

It's strange how Bethesda makes a game every 3 years or so, yet it has enough money to buy up id and a half dozen other companies....

Gosh, it couldn't be because they make good games that sell... could it?

Oh Sh*t. Unless this means we're getting FF Versus 13 soon or Kingdom Hearts 3 comes out next year this will end BADLY.

Omnific One:
It's strange how Bethesda makes a game every 3 years or so, yet it has enough money to buy up id and a half dozen other companies....

Gosh, it couldn't be because they make good games that sell... could it?

Square Enix makes mediocre games that sell. As bad as Final Fantasy XIII was, it sold 6 million copies. That's alot of money.

Square, all of your talent left the company a long, LONG time ago. All you have left are talentless, yes-men hacks like Kitase and Toriyama (the latter of whom wrote one of the most sexist games I've EVER seen) who need to go away.

Crono1973:

Omnific One:
It's strange how Bethesda makes a game every 3 years or so, yet it has enough money to buy up id and a half dozen other companies....

Gosh, it couldn't be because they make good games that sell... could it?

Square Enix makes mediocre games that sell. As bad as Final Fantasy XIII was, it sold 6 million copies. That's alot of money.

It was riding the nostalgia wave. I expect XIII-2 to sell under 4.5 million copies; gonna be a lot harder to convince people this time.

Plus 13 had a very long dev period, even if it didn't come out as expected. Imagine what will happen if they do the same thing, but compressed down to one year dev time. Not pretty.

Crono1973:
I think it will be ok. I think they can take more risks if they don't have to gamble everything on ONE big game per generation.

It's pretty sad that the NES saw three titles in 3 years. SNES saw three titles in 3 years. PS1 saw three titles in 3 years but with the PS2 began the slowdown with only 3 titles (not counting MMO's) in 5 years and this generation we have seen only ONE title in 5 years. If XIII-2 doesn't get delayed that's 2 titles in the longest console generation yet.

That I can agree with, certainly. I don't see anything wrong with them scaling back on things a bit, and more stringent deadlines will hopefully teach them to focus and not over-scope. I just worry about who's going to be behind the wheel.

Aeonknight:
Games they've released within the last 5 years:

Crisis Core from 2007, sold a good 350,000 copies. Nothing huge, but was definately not a bad game (alot of people like it more than FF7 now)

Not me. Way too much of Nomura's self-indulgence. I'll acknowledge it was a decent game, though, even if the existentialist junk isn't really to my taste.

Still, 350,000 copies isn't really what you'd call "good." Generally speaking under 500,000 is considered "commercial failure and/or flop." As a handheld Crisis Core gets some leeway, but... they spent on it like it was a full-blown console game. Probably why there's a tinge of panic in Wada's press releases of late, and why there's supposedly a ton of friction between him and Nomura.

Dissidia, the first one sold 1 million copies back in '09. Enough to warrant a sequel:

Dissidia Duodecim, released a little over a year ago, didn't sell AS well, but still outsold the 3DS in terms of first week sales.

In point of fact I bought my PSP for them.

For those games, I will grant you that those are fine sales. The production scope was controlled enough that it could probably get away with under half that and still turn a tidy profit.

Then there's Kingdom hearts. Specifically Birth by Sleep. Released a little over a year ago, 800,000+ in japan alone.

Again, they spent on it like a full-blown console game. It probably came off more profitably for them than Crisis Core, but I have a difficult time believing they made enough to pay Leonard Nimoy.

If I'm being more serious, though, egh, the Kingdom Hearts franchise is in big trouble with regards to its sustainability. For one, look what worlds they had to force action into in Birth by Sleep. They ran out of ideas a long time ago.

More importantly to their future sales, though, think what happened with Chain of Memories and KH2 (most people didn't play Chain of Memories and had no idea what was going on), then think about that three times over with KH3. To put this in perspective? Most people who aren't hardcore KH fans don't know about Birth by Sleep. They still think the trailer at the end of KH2 was for KH3.

Truth is, Square's narrowcasted the ever-loving shit out of this thing by spreading it across every system imaginable, and it's going to bite them in the hump like nothing else when they finally do get the balls to do a mainstream release and spend a big wad on it, mark my words.

Then there's that game that everyone seems to think is a failure, FF13. Released a year ago... again. 6.2 million copies worldwide.

Short-term it's the fastest-selling Final Fantasy game in history. Fastest-selling, but not best-selling. Pretty well in keeping with their usual numbers for an "average" title in the series, which is still better than most major productions. Trouble is, I don't think they made their money back even with 6.2 million copies--at least, not enough of it. The game still took about four years to make--four years of stagnation on a team of three hundred people, which is bloody fucking enormous. This ranks it among the biggest productions of game development history, and whether you like the game or not it's difficult to justify based on the product turned out.

Before I go long-term, I want to address some other comments.

Yes, they absolutely BOMBED on FF14. Quite possibly a bigger flop than the Spirits Within movie.

Hard to say without a concrete idea of what the budget was like for that game, but I'm willing to bet you're right. At this point they've probably lost a mint on maintaining it for the few people who do play it.

But they still have a relatively decent track record I'd say. Those are not CoD or Skyrim sales numbers by any means, but they're holding their own for the time being. All it takes is a good game into the main series to put them back on top again. I still have some faith in em.

Getting back to FF13...

Thing is, they used to pretty consistently make Call of Duty or Skyrim sales numbers. In fact, they epicly outsold any Western RPG franchise. FF7 and 10 are among "best-selling of all time" titles at about 10,million units apiece. That's up there with Call of Duty, Super Mario World, and Guitar Hero. The fact that a game that cost them many times the respective budgets of FF7 and 10 to build cracked in at around half that doesn't bode very well for them. Probably why they really ought to do what they're talking about here and try to be a bit more disciplined with their productions.

Long-term, it's a bit too soon to judge how the fanbase is going to deal with it... but I'm honestly much more concerned with how Square themselves are going to deal with it. Yoichi Wada reacted maybe the most sensibly, saying "this business model isn't sustainable and we've got to do something about this right now," but he may push into over-compensating by trying to "westernize" too much.

Plus, as many have pointed out, Square's production teams have already been spread way too thin; among the games you pointed out, four of them were simultaneous projects under Tetsuya Nomura's oversight, along with several others, including Versus 13, The World Ends With You, and other Kingdom Hearts spinoffs. It's a situation that, from what I understand, he's very fed up with--and at this point for Square losing Nomura, who is essentially the company's face, would be an incredible loss.

And then there's Motomu Toriyama, the guy who's likely to end up directing future Final Fantasy titles. The genius who brought us FFX-2 and FF13; who has reacted very stubbornly to criticism against his baby. I'll be perfectly clear on this right now: I really hate this motherfucker. I feel like he can't rub two sticks together and have no confidence in his ability to direct a game. He sees storytelling as being mutually exclusive from interaction and exploration, is prone to making excuses for his mistakes, and as FF13 has shown he makes for a very weak project manager; case in point, the game spent three years stagnating in development hell with the team unable to cooperate on either the story or design direction; both points that were meant to be his final say; before he finally threw up his hands and said, "screw it! We'll just make it up as we go along." As long as THIS GUY is in charge of the series? I don't see any good coming of it.

Omnific One:

Crono1973:

Omnific One:
It's strange how Bethesda makes a game every 3 years or so, yet it has enough money to buy up id and a half dozen other companies....

Gosh, it couldn't be because they make good games that sell... could it?

Square Enix makes mediocre games that sell. As bad as Final Fantasy XIII was, it sold 6 million copies. That's alot of money.

It was riding the nostalgia wave. I expect XIII-2 to sell under 4.5 million copies; gonna be a lot harder to convince people this time.

Plus 13 had a very long dev period, even if it didn't come out as expected. Imagine what will happen if they do the same thing, but compressed down to one year dev time. Not pretty.

I think that extremely long dev cycle doomed the game. Even if it were the second coming of Morrowind(LOL), expectations were too high. How many times have you heard people say "we waited 5 years for this?"

People didn't like Final Fantasy VIII, that's ok though because IX was only a year behind it.

Shut up and give me Versus XIII already Square Enix! Sheesh! At this point I'm not entirely unconvinced that Versus XIII isn't just a publicity stunt designed to get people to pay attention to Square and will never get released.

Not to mention the fact that we STILL don't have any information on Kingdom Hearts III. Just what are the execs over there thinking?!

Dreadman75:
Shut up and give me Versus XIII already Square Enix! Sheesh! At this point I'm not entirely unconvinced that Versus XIII isn't just a publicity stunt designed to get people to pay attention to Square and will never get released.

Not to mention the fact that we STILL don't have any information on Kingdom Hearts III. Just what are the execs over there thinking?!

More like "when is Nomura going to stop wanking off to fashion magazines and actually direct a game for a change?"

I think in the long run this would actually be a bad idea. Not cause quality would (likely) suffer (cause game companies could honestly really give less of a shit about quality), but because the profits would eventually wain and lack. Probably the biggest thing they have now going for them is the hype that comes with these years in between.

good, i love FFXIII and will buy anything they will offer. it's all better if it's every year or so. i hope in XIII-3 we will play a Lightning again.

oh leave it out, the recent games have been bad enough as it is, you start pumping them out once a year and you're only going to damage the brand even further. Put it down for a while, work on some other franchises with care, look what made the recent games bad, MAKE KINGDOM HEARTS 3, then come back to Final Fantasy with a fresh mind.

Oh and rehire Nebuno Uematsu, I still listen to the old soundtracks because they have because they had a great soundtrack, failing that, hire the guys who did the soundtrack for Halo, because regardless of your stance on the gameplay, the original trilogy had a fucking stellar soundtrack.

Robomega:
People really need to brush up on their Final Fantasy history, because this wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for them.

Final Fantasy VII - 1997
Final Fantasy Tactics - 1998
Final Fantasy VIII - 1999
Final Fantasy IX - 2000
Final Fantasy X - 2001
Final Fantasy XI - 2003 (2002 in Japan)

For five years there was a major new title every year, with XI coming out only two years after X. It wasn't until XII that things started to slow down considerably.

And most people would say that that period between '97 and '01 was their best work, too.

I wouldn't say that's entirely fair, that was then, not now; Tactics is spin offish (and while a great game in its own right doesn't have the cinematic aspect the other games had at the time, thus being cheaper) and IX is an MMO.

I am aware they came out quickly, however they had their A team working on those games, and as far as I'm aware most of the original team that worked on those games don't work for Square anymore, a large portion work for Mistwalker Studios now including Hironobu Sakaguchi, after which the series had a sharp decline in quality.

2007 saw Lost Odyssey (mistwalker) and FF12 (square) released, and while 12 wasn't bad persay, it didn't have Hironobu Sakaguchi behind the wheel and thus Lost Odyssey was a lot better bar some loading issues.

They either need to find some new blood or somehow convince the old team to come back as they should have some fresh ideas themselves now where we can have a game at least close to the level of the golden era.

Crono1973:

Kitsuna10060:

Shark Wrangler:
I'll tell you what they need to do, leave Final Fantasy alone and work on these damn games instead.

1. Einhander 2

2. Another Chrono trigger or Chrono Cross

3. Secret of Evermore 2

4. Another Secret of Mana or Legend of Mana game

T-T i love you for mentioning Einhander

but instead of a new CT or CC, how about Seiken Densetsu 3 re-release
another Mana or Evermore game would be good, so long as its done right this time -.-

OT: really? so ... they place to release more meh games? and they plan on doing what to make these games actually worth while? a new RPG every year is not a good idea, the reason CoD/BF or assassins creed can get away with it is game play reasons, something Final Fantasy isn't known for, they >.> used to be know for good story's.

They also use to be known for releasing games every 1 to 2 years. I would like a NA release of Secret of Mana 2 (Seiken Densetsu 3).

well that was back when the had a team that knew what they where doing :p

but Seiken Densetsu 3 was the shit wasn't it

Kitsuna10060:

Crono1973:

Kitsuna10060:

T-T i love you for mentioning Einhander

but instead of a new CT or CC, how about Seiken Densetsu 3 re-release
another Mana or Evermore game would be good, so long as its done right this time -.-

OT: really? so ... they place to release more meh games? and they plan on doing what to make these games actually worth while? a new RPG every year is not a good idea, the reason CoD/BF or assassins creed can get away with it is game play reasons, something Final Fantasy isn't known for, they >.> used to be know for good story's.

They also use to be known for releasing games every 1 to 2 years. I would like a NA release of Secret of Mana 2 (Seiken Densetsu 3).

well that was back when the had a team that knew what they where doing :p

but Seiken Densetsu 3 was the shit wasn't it

I never got to play it because it never got a NA release. I absolutely love the first game (Secret of Mana, Seiken Densetsu 2) though. Maybe I should emu...oh wait...can't discuss that here.

lmao Final Fantasy will become to JRPG's what COD is to FPS's!

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