Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

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To the tedious black-and-white moralisers in this thread: I would like to confess that I pirated music today. In fact, I STOLE a good two-hours worth of current chart music this morning by listening to it, for free, on my radio. I'm also willing to admit that I have several times done the same on the illegal deep-web hacker site "Youtube" where you can search at will for pirated, contraband music, both current and classic.

According to some of the simplistic logic in this thread, I have directly picked the pockets of the likes of Rihanna and... um... whoever else is big at the moment. On a couple of occasions I even left the room when the adverts came on, which, like Adblocking, is completely illegal and immoral.

That's right. I benefitted from a product, that took time and money to produce, and I paid not a penny for it. How do I sleep at night? Well, in a prison cell for the next several months, apparently. Call the police, somebody. I'm resigned to my fate.

ManThatYouFear:
I love these arguments because no matter how people spin it, "ITS FUCKING WRONG"

And maybe, if the moralist, bold and capslock using crowd actually gave some arguments why US law on the matter is superior then for example Swiss or Dutch law, we wouldn't have the same discussion every day of people "spinning it"(ie, giving valid arguments) vs a bunch of smug, condescending 3rd graders screaming "LALALA I CANT HEAR YOUR ARGUMENTS OVER HOW SUPERIOR I AM".

I don't think that a single pirate has ever been converted

the clockmaker:

Wargamer:
"CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased"

What does that tell you, boys and girls?

It tells us that when faced with a choice between PAYING to have malware installed on your PC, or taking a free copy someone ran through the virus-checker, people will take the one that doesn't have malware.

DRM encourages Piracy.

I'm pretty sure that you read that statement wrong.

If DRM encourages piracy and
The witcher 2 had no DRM ie is DRM less therefore
The witcher 2 should not have been as pirated as DRM heavy titles

The Witcher 2 was heavily pirated which leads us, boys and girls back to the point that while DRM does suck, it is just another in the long long long line of flimsy defences that pirates throw up to justify their receiving a product/service without paying for it.

A self entitled consumer base encourages piracy.

You do realize that the Witcher 2 guy is lying through his teeth about how often his game was pirated if the other article is to be believed?

DVS BSTrD:

Dastardly:

Greg Tito:
Snip

Snip

I only really take issue with dismissing "not a lost sale" and "If they made better games". I'm not going to say that fixing these will bring an end to piracy, but all this I keep hearing about the absurd overpricing some escapist member have to deal with. This coupled with the fact that there ARE a lot of games that, while fun, are NOT worth $60 ("wait until the price drops, then give it a try") certainly contribute. That coupled with postponed regional release dates and outright limited releasing. I had some friends in my last college who pirated and shared a game simply because there was no way to get in America, it was only released in Japan and one of them had a connection.

I feel the same way as you about games that aren't made widely available. Europe is a hard place to get a fair amount of games. To get a game like the original Shin Megami Tensei legally, I'd have to buy a Super Famicom, find a copy of the game, get them shipped to England, buy a number of electrical socket converters (I think), find some way to hook it up to my TV and most importantly: Learn Japanese.

Now I don't know about anyone else here but that's a lot of effort for one game (or two if you count the sequel). So the easier thing to do is emulate a fan translated copy.

And you know what, I enjoyed that game. But here's the problem with that particular series. Atlus doesn't have a European branch or publisher. I have to wait until March to play Catherine. MARCH! Considering how long that game's been out in NA, never mind Japan, that's a long wait. But apart from that, Atlus doesn't even release all their games in Europe. The only Shin Megami Tensei games that we're likely to get are Persona. Persona is great but I'd like Strange Journey or Devil Survivor too.

I honestly think one thing that does encourage piracy is that. Products not being widely available. It's worse for PC when the product is being distributed digitally but not in your country. No, it's not right that the developers "lose a sale" but it's a debatable thing really as the sale was obviously never going to happen if that person couldn't buy it.

Once upon a time there was no law on the high seas, and lo; there was piracy.

As tech improves so will the governments (police and so on) ability to regulate, referee and inhibit behaviour which is either of questionable morality or legality. To continue to the comparison with high seas ne'er do wells; the only parts of the world which still suffer sea based piracy are those with weak or non existent piracy. Even heavily corrupt governments like to control sea access so that they can make money on this.

Internet piracy is the same. Technology will improve and the internet 'ocean' will become smaller as a result.

Personally, I'm just honestly perplexed how people can honestly say that piracy is not theft. The logic doesn't add up. John Q. Public decides that he'd rather download a game illegaly than buy it. This means that he obtained the game without paying for it. How is that not theft?

EDIT: Very well, so it's not technically defined as theft. But at least we can all agree that it's illegal and wrong, yes?

Greg Tito:
A self-described game lawyer explains why arguments in favor of piracy are bunk.

I know this has already been said a few times, but the more I read this article the more I see that this isn't news. This is just an article heavily injected with venom for pirates with some quotes from a lawyer in it. I'm seeing more personal opinions than what should be in a news article, and while the hate towards pirates is understandable, it just isn't how I like to see my news.

I don't know if anyone agrees or not but I thought I should have this said.

Andreson:
Hmm, those are some pretty solid arguments.

I don't think I can disagree.

Pardon me for saying, but this statement isn't really contributing anything to the discussion.

Greg Tito:
Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

image

A self-described game lawyer explains why arguments in favor of piracy are bunk.

Whenever the prosecution of game piracy is mentioned, the pirates (or, at least, apologists) come out of the woodwork to defend the crime. There's no sure-fire way to go after IP addresses that have downloaded games illegally, they say, because the hackers can just mask their IP address. Or just because a game was downloaded doesn't mean that the computer's owner was the pirate. Worse, pirates say that any prosecution is just a way to scare people or that most of the time pirates become real customers of the game. Jas Purewal is a lawyer based in London and he pointed out today that most of those arguments don't hold up to any real logical scrutiny.

Purewal says there is really no evidence that most pirates have the desire or technical chops to effectively mask their IP address, and even if some did, that's hardly a reason to stop going after pirates. "There's no empirical evidence so far to support how often IP spoofing is done," he said. "In reality, I suspect fairly few pirates actually go to the trouble of disguising themselves. Besides which, just because the method is not perfect, doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing, does it?"

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

Even though Purewal is a lawyer and should therefor be on board for litigation solving all problems, he's also a gamer. The solution to piracy should come from publishers offering better ways for customers to enjoy their games, not suing willy-nilly. "If we can reduce piracy through the means of technology and via the market, then that's got to be better than getting lawyers involved," he said. He applauds platforms like Steam that are a form of DRM which don't slap paying customers in the face.

The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.

Source: NextGen

Permalink

Please note that the TorrentFreak list was MEASURED accurately, whereas those BS The Witcher 2 numbers's were estimated by multiplying one assumption by another assumption by another ad nausem (i.e. they were ridiculous maths with zero error bands that are likely +/-4.5 million in size) and those assumptions were pretty weak if you tested them against any available data.

All of these excuses are self-justification, more arbitrary made-up ideals people use to feel better about themselves for stealing.

Bottom line is they simply do not want to have to pay for stuff. It's stealing, it really is.

Sud0_x:
Just spit coffee everywhere. Thanks a lot, pal!

By the battle.net system I ment how you have a digital bookshelf and can redownload the game at anytime and don't need to keep silly CD-keys on file.

Also by annoying DRM I was talking mainly about say, Assasin's Creed 2.

Personally I find Steam to be generally a good platform. Origin was in the escapist headlines for having complete tracking and complete hardrive content scanners that would send all that info back to EA. As far as I'm aware Steam doesn't have those kinds of problems.

Batou667:
To the tedious black-and-white moralisers in this thread: I would like to confess that I pirated music today. In fact, I STOLE a good two-hours worth of current chart music this morning by listening to it, for free, on my radio. I'm also willing to admit that I have several times done the same on the illegal deep-web hacker site "Youtube" where you can search at will for pirated, contraband music, both current and classic.

According to some of the simplistic logic in this thread, I have directly picked the pockets of the likes of Rihanna and... um... whoever else is big at the moment. On a couple of occasions I even left the room when the adverts came on, which, like Adblocking, is completely illegal and immoral.

That's right. I benefitted from a product, that took time and money to produce, and I paid not a penny for it. How do I sleep at night? Well, in a prison cell for the next several months, apparently. Call the police, somebody. I'm resigned to my fate.

Probably the best post in this thread.
What's going on here is a typical discussion with people that lack the intelligence for a discussion. No offense, just the truth.
The difference between people that are intelligent enough and those who aren't is simple. Those who are join a discussion and don't only share their thoughts, but also accept and think about the other opinions/thoughts.
Like in most discussions, this is just a discussion full of people that think are sure that their opinion is true and everything that differs is bulls**t.
To all most of you:
Stop being complete d***s with massive ego's and give others a chance. At least consider that they might be right and you aren't.

TheMariner:
Personally, I'm just honestly perplexed how people can honestly say that piracy is not theft. The logic doesn't add up. John Q. Public decides that he'd rather download a game illegaly than buy it. This means that he obtained the game without paying for it. How is that not theft?

Because it is legally defined as something else, copyright violation. We've been over this at least three times in this very topic alone.

kebab4you:
"because the hackers can just mask their IP address"

Haven't we started to use the word hacker just a bit to loosely(seeing how pirating doesn't involve any kind of "hacking")? o_o

a hacker to a, well to coin a word, 'old git' is someone who knows to use computers.
in their eyes, most of the escapist comunity is a hacker XD.
to people like us, hackers are more like the people on 4chan who do stuff neo style that a normal person can just not do. break in into peoples computers, put porn on US sites ( lololol ) and such kind of stuff. ( also BAD HACKERS! @ the pron on sesame street site once :/ )

LilithSlave:

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

game costs $60

5 million pirated copies of the Witcher 2 = $300,000,000 in lost sales.

... how do they not lose money?

SenorStocks:

thahat:

hey someone payed attention in law class ( or is just clever, one of both, good going sir or madam! )

if you want to poke him some more: theft can only apply when there has been a TRANSFER of goods(in abstract from, so real stuff and faerydust//ideas). from a person to a person ( legal or real ) copying, is not as per say a transfer. (unless the publisher itsself copies his own game and you then ctl-x it off his harddrive XD )

Thanks! One of my degrees is in law so I'd like to think I have some vague idea of what I'm talking about! And yes, you're absolutely correct in your assertion as well. It's nice to know someone has some sense around here.

Even still, the fact that this whole "piracy = theft" thing gets thrown around with such frequency and conviction by these ignorant people sometimes makes me question my own reasoning.

dont, your right on the money ;).
but hey i think this discussion will inger on for a long time. and there are these gaming studio's that DONT worry too much about this. cause their games will just get bought anyway.
( im looking at you bethesda, valve, Blizzard. ) i wonder why...
(rhetorical, their games are WORTH the money., no wonder people piret those less in percentages.. )

Mimsofthedawg:

LilithSlave:

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

game costs $60

5 million pirated copies of the Witcher 2 = $300,000,000 in lost sales.

... how do they not lose money?

By that logic, pirates have stolen several times more money than exists on the planet.

TheMariner:
Personally, I'm just honestly perplexed how people can honestly say that piracy is not theft. The logic doesn't add up. John Q. Public decides that he'd rather download a game illegaly than buy it. This means that he obtained the game without paying for it. How is that not theft?

verry simply good sir!

basic law class commencing NOW!.
there are things you can touch. these things are called goods.
there are things you CANT touch, but still own. also goods.

to STEAL something a transfer of goods has to take place from one person to the next.
e.g. you have a bucket of water, i take it from you. now you have NO bucket of water, and i do.
this is stealing.

what pirating a game is, is unrightfully copying.
copying, is not disallowed. using someones ideas who has copyright to them to produce something though, is not. by coping, you produce something. you dont own the idea, and do not pay for it. THIS is illigal. so technically PIRACY is not theft, nor even actualy 'piracy' its more 'disregrading copyrights.' like when you *oldfag allert* videotape things off of your tv.
they are equal. since you dont TAKE anything but you produce something with someone elses ideas.

am i clear enough or do you need further explanation?

When I google bass tabs on the internet and watch a youtube video of a band and then play that song on my bass and record it onto my mp3 player and play that to my friends I am technically infringing on multiple fronts. Send me to a firing squad.

thahat:
nor even actualy 'piracy' its more 'disregrading copyrights.' like when you *oldfag allert* videotape things off of your tv.
they are equal. since you dont TAKE anything but you produce something with someone elses ideas.

Hey, don't use the old fart alert on video taping things... You'll start to make me feel old :(.

Though the big problem with that is, well... When you video tape things off TV (which all of us who were around at the time of the VHS did, lets face it) you tend to keep that to yourself, maybe let your mates borrow it and that's about as much as it goes. Its pretty harmless, legally shakey but reasonably harmless. However what many didn't do was tape it, mass produce it and release it to everyone so they didn't have to pay for it.

Aside from the people on the market and up the old video store in the top shops who just copied and sold them (which was as close to the current pirate business we have going though with the lack of the internet as it is today, it was pretty isolated).

That's pretty much what people do now, its buying a game, then releasing it on the web (often) for free. I can't really sit here and defend that. Personally I think they need to refine some laws for this. People can sit here and bark but telling me that they're not going to lose profit from this is mind boggling.

You can say that everyone who pirates is a potential buyer sure but lets face it, there's not going to be many that are going to go out and purchase a product they already have and got for free. You might get a few noble souls sure but I'm doubting your going to have many. Most of its split between people with a false sense of entitlement, the other with people who just don't want to pay, people that think the are revolutionists (though that might be lumped in with the self entitled) and here and there you'll have people who pirate for a demo or to test it out before buying.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just a poor internet shmuck who's dumb enough to pay for video games.

There's no point in arguing with pirates over the morality or definition of theft. It's like arguing with a junkie. Logic will simply wash over them without a drop soaking in.

It's a blame shift, pure and simple.

saregos:

Thyunda:

saregos:

I'm not going to debate the merits of your post. Others have done that quite thoroughly, and with minimal effect.

I'd simply like to point out that, unless you have evidence for your assertion that Sylveria is a "dirty pirate" and has been "playing stolen games" (link it, please) the above statements fall under the technical definition of Libel.

Which... is illegal.

So, to clarify, you just broke the law in your post telling us how much you're

Congratulations.

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Denamic:

Mimsofthedawg:

LilithSlave:

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

game costs $60

5 million pirated copies of the Witcher 2 = $300,000,000 in lost sales.

... how do they not lose money?

By that logic, pirates have stolen several times more money than exists on the planet.

You obviously know nothing about economics.

If you did, you'd know that modern money doesn't really exist at all, but is given value by big corporate banks.

Never mind that, if you added up all the piracy, it would only be in the low-mid billions.

I'm tired of finding the individual quotes for comparison, so I suggest you read your post again to refresh your memories.
Everything I write is a direct response to something you said, in chronological order.

TechNoFear:
snip

I know that. I didn't say that loss of revenue was okay.
I'm talking about the instances in which there is no loss of potential revenue, in essence, when the pirate was not going to buy the game anyways.
Didn't I say I oppose piracy? Once again, it looks like you didn't read my post in it's entirety.
Piracy is not okay. It's not something I ever endorsed. My problem is with the self-congratulatory stupidity that makes it easier for pirates to justify their behaviors.

It doesn't matter if it's not a physical good. It represents physical goods.
The idea is that it's finite.
I cannot withdraw infinite amounts of money from the bank.
I can, however, copy a video game an infinite number of times and distribute it to a hypothetical infinite number of people.
My work cost me time, which also exists in finite quantities.
I will die at some point. Therefore, if my employer does not pay me, he is fucking me over by taking something finite and not giving it back. In essence, theft.

TechNoFear:

Eternal Taros:
If you steal "Intellectual Property" nothing of value to the creator of the property has been lost.

Except the time, labor and inspiration that went into creating the IP.

What.
I said nothing of value is LOST.
Do you know what LOST means?
It means that it's no longer available or in existence anymore.
I suppose you think that every time someone pirates a game, all the time labor and inspiration that went into creating the game are LOST FOREVER.
Yeah, no.

Aeshi:
snip

I mean that some people pirate games that they would not have otherwise bought.
I thought that was abundantly clear.
The Witcher 2 was pirated more times than it was purchased.
While undoubtedly some of those people would have bought the game had it not been available for piracy, not all of those people would have payed money for an obscure title from a company they've never heard of.

As for buying used, that has the exact same impact as pirating. You're just giving money to the re distributors.
I don't really give a shit about stores like gamestop.
You pay money arbitrarily to ease your conscience, but buying used has the exact same impact on the industry, which I assume is your primary concern.
Publishers HATE used sales.

Sure you can wait for the price to go down.
I can and have done that.
I never said I pirate.

Forgery and counterfeiting are different matters.
Again, it also depends on the exact context.
Stop wildly using analogies which don't really apply.
Forgery for the sake of a greater crime would of course be wrong.
Counterfeiting money harms the state and the businesses involved.
It is a responsibility of the government to produce money that the people can trust.
In essence, when you pay for something with fake money, you are getting a physical good without giving anything back.
That is actually the same as stealing a physical good.
Replicating intellectual property, once again, is not comparable.

I never said it made them the majority.
My post was in response to Dastardly's original self-congratulating post where he pretended to invalidate all arguments.
Truth is, we don't really know how many of them are evil, so that's kind of a moot point.
No one said that they feel entitled to anything.

Think about it this way. I am a highschool student and I don't have a lot of money.
I don't have a lot of money to spend on video games.
My parents don't usually buy games for me.
I don't pirate. But even if I did, there would be no impact on the industry.
Why? I don't have money to spend anyways.
In this instance, there is no potential revenue lost. At all.
Sure I can mount a high horse and look down on all piracy as the incarnation of evil itself, but that's just useless sentimental bullshit.
Kind of arrogant, really.

I don't think you have a good understanding of how human beings react when they can "game the system."
Where I live, there are certain organizations that rely on a trust system, where they expect you to pay but don't enforce it.
There are people who don't pay.
These people are dicks.
However, most of the people actually do pay for the services.
Piracy is increasing but so are game sales.
There will always be dicks, but that doesn't mean we should start panicking.

Dastardly:

Eternal Taros:
Jesus, did you even read my post?

See, now you're just yelling the same thing over and over, as though saying it "madder" gives it more weight. You're not reading and responding, you're getting the vague sense of which "side" of the argument a person is on, and then spewing forth every argument you have against what you perceive that "side" to think. And hey, that's fine... unless you're trying to pretend it's a "reply."

What is the point of this post? I don't really see it.
In essence, all you're saying is "umad?"
And yes, I'm pissed off. It's hard to deal with someone as frustrating as you.
I responded to every single point you made in your own post. I even quoted for ease of reference.
I hope you're done with your passive-aggressive, ad hominem post, because unless you are, I'm done with you.

This is starting to look pointless. I'm tired of writing small essays for the benefit of bleeding hearts that present faulty arguments.
Stay on your goddamn high horses. You can think you won if you want.
I'm done.

Once again, I want to make it clear that I do not support piracy.
People who worked hard developing games should be paid for their work.
That's how capitalism is.
I'm starting to sound like a broken record, but my problem with some of the posters in this thread is not their opposition to piracy, but the retarded arguments they present.

Thyunda:

saregos:

Thyunda:

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Depends which country you're talking about. If he's from the UK, then no, he's not a criminal even if he does pirate as it's only a civil offence not criminal.

Mimsofthedawg:
snip

No.
5 Million people were not going to fucking buy Witcher 2.
It's impossible to know how many people would have gotten it. But it sure as hell isn't all of them.
That's about the same level as Skyrim. They saw a game interesting enough to try, but not worth 50 dollars.
An obscure company should not be so ambitious with their pricing.
I'm not saying they deserved to have their game pirated. I'm sure they lost many sales.
But from a marketing standpoint, setting the price at $50 was stupid.
There are so many people that haven't heard of the witcher series.
You do not start by putting it out for the same price as triple A, top of the industry video games.

Thyunda:

saregos:

Thyunda:

Clearly you didn't pay much attention to my response to the earlier post. I said I wasn't aiming exactly at the poster I was talking to, it was a response aimed at pirates in general.

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Uh, no...
If Sylveria isn't a pirate, you FALSELY STATED THEY COMMITTED A CRIME. Which is a crime in and of itself.

Libel:
defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.

Defamation:
false or unjustified injury of the good reputation of another.

So... who's trying (and failing miserably) to be smart? You explicitly committed libel (an actionable offense, if Sylveria weren't an obviously better person than yourself).

Hypocrite.

SenorStocks:

Thyunda:

saregos:

Doesn't matter. Still libelous, as the initial post was aimed at a specific person. And if you were really aiming at "pirates in general"...

Escapist provides a wonderful edit button. Also, apologies work wonders. Since the fact remains that you DID libel Sylveria.

And now, you're providing excuses for why your illegal actions should be given a pass. Tell me, is your sense of irony going berserk right now? Because mine is...

I libelled nobody. Stop trying to be smart. Pirates are criminals. If Sylveria is a pirate, they are a criminal. If not, they have nothing to be upset over. Go home.

Depends which country you're talking about. If he's from the UK, then no, he's not a criminal even if he does pirate as it's only a civil offence not criminal.

More to the point - His unfounded statements fall explicitly in the category of defamation. Written defamation is libel, an actionable offense (at least, in the US).

saregos:

Aeshi:
There are "some" people on this very forum who would gladly see game developers/publishers/both starve to death for the "crime" of wanting to stop piracy/make money.

Really? I strongly doubt that. However, since you apparently have intimate knowledge of the forums, I'm sure you have no problem whatsoever providing a link.

Personally, I'm all for Ubisoft starving themselves to sanity. Their DRM is counter-productive, obtrusive and, largely, ineffective.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's no fundamental right to success. If a game company produces a game that's blatantly hostile to their customer, they have NO RIGHT to expect profit from it. Piracy doesn't change that fact.

As you wish, please refer to post 278 of this thread.

Feel free to start your Goalpost Movement/No True Scotsman Fallacies now.

LilithSlave:

but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer

NO, it does not. That logic is incredibly erroneous.

No it doesn't. It means that a product that could have been bought wasn't. Games take money to make, and not paying for the game means that the developer is not getting the money they need to stay in the black for that game. Thus, a loss.

Stalydan:

DVS BSTrD:

Dastardly:
Snip

I only really take issue with dismissing "not a lost sale" and "If they made better games". I'm not going to say that fixing these will bring an end to piracy, but all this I keep hearing about the absurd overpricing some escapist member have to deal with. This coupled with the fact that there ARE a lot of games that, while fun, are NOT worth $60 ("wait until the price drops, then give it a try") certainly contribute. That coupled with postponed regional release dates and outright limited releasing. I had some friends in my last college who pirated and shared a game simply because there was no way to get in America, it was only released in Japan and one of them had a connection.

I feel the same way as you about games that aren't made widely available. Europe is a hard place to get a fair amount of games. To get a game like the original Shin Megami Tensei legally, I'd have to buy a Super Famicom, find a copy of the game, get them shipped to England, buy a number of electrical socket converters (I think), find some way to hook it up to my TV and most importantly: Learn Japanese.

Now I don't know about anyone else here but that's a lot of effort for one game (or two if you count the sequel). So the easier thing to do is emulate a fan translated copy.

And you know what, I enjoyed that game. But here's the problem with that particular series. Atlus doesn't have a European branch or publisher. I have to wait until March to play Catherine. MARCH! Considering how long that game's been out in NA, never mind Japan, that's a long wait. But apart from that, Atlus doesn't even release all their games in Europe. The only Shin Megami Tensei games that we're likely to get are Persona. Persona is great but I'd like Strange Journey or Devil Survivor too.

I honestly think one thing that does encourage piracy is that. Products not being widely available. It's worse for PC when the product is being distributed digitally but not in your country. No, it's not right that the developers "lose a sale" but it's a debatable thing really as the sale was obviously never going to happen if that person couldn't buy it.

I read your entire post. Thanks for reinforcingthe stereotype that gamers are entitled little twerps. Game developers, publishers don't actually, hilariously enough owe you anything. So you had to wait for a game release? People around the world worry about stuff like landmines. Actual problems. You are going to be discriminated, release wise, based on where you live. I'm Australian. Given how much we pay for games and the argument that "its too expeensiiive" as well as the "nation of convicts" trope, we should all be pirates. Yet we aren't, we pay for our games. Why? Because we don't walk the earth assuming that we're entitled to everything we want.

Edit

Mcoffey:
edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

Flac00:

Mcoffey:
edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

Technically the game is copied, not taken.

Flac00:

Mcoffey:
edit: Also, it's not theft and it's simply incorrect to call it such.

Ok then, the definition of theft then:
An unlawful taking of property (this is from Marian Webster).
Is a game the property of the company that made it? Yes, as according to law (or at least US law), it is.
Is taking a product that costs money for free without the consent of the owner in any way (including from a third party) unlawful? Yes.
So...therefore, piracy of games is theft. Not hard to figure out.

Copyright infringement.not theft. However, still illegal. Not sure why everyone gets hung up on this point.

Aeshi:

saregos:

Aeshi:
There are "some" people on this very forum who would gladly see game developers/publishers/both starve to death for the "crime" of wanting to stop piracy/make money.

Really? I strongly doubt that. However, since you apparently have intimate knowledge of the forums, I'm sure you have no problem whatsoever providing a link.

Personally, I'm all for Ubisoft starving themselves to sanity. Their DRM is counter-productive, obtrusive and, largely, ineffective.

Also, I'd like to point out that there's no fundamental right to success. If a game company produces a game that's blatantly hostile to their customer, they have NO RIGHT to expect profit from it. Piracy doesn't change that fact.

As you wish,Scroll down to post 278.

Feel free to start picking up those goal posts now.

A bit hyperbolic, I'll grant. Disturbingly so, in fact. So consider the point conceded.

There are, indeed, pirates (and developers) whose senses of entitlement are frankly quite disgusting. They're a substantial part of the reason why, respectively, piracy can't be effectively combated and developers feel justified in producing piles of AAA shovel-ware.

What I'd like to see, and perhaps what I've lost sight of in the process of arguing this, is game sales increase and the inevitable piracy's effect be minimized. I believe that's the same goal you're interested in achieving.

The only difference is our proposed methods - That doesn't make me a criminal, or supportive of criminal behavior. All it means is that I am of the opinion that heavy-handed DRM and anti-piracy initiatives have shown a history of backfiring, and take value away from the customer.

Greg Tito:
Lawyer Destroys Arguments for Game Piracy

image

A self-described game lawyer explains why arguments in favor of piracy are bunk.

Whenever the prosecution of game piracy is mentioned, the pirates (or, at least, apologists) come out of the woodwork to defend the crime. There's no sure-fire way to go after IP addresses that have downloaded games illegally, they say, because the hackers can just mask their IP address. Or just because a game was downloaded doesn't mean that the computer's owner was the pirate. Worse, pirates say that any prosecution is just a way to scare people or that most of the time pirates become real customers of the game. Jas Purewal is a lawyer based in London and he pointed out today that most of those arguments don't hold up to any real logical scrutiny.

Purewal says there is really no evidence that most pirates have the desire or technical chops to effectively mask their IP address, and even if some did, that's hardly a reason to stop going after pirates. "There's no empirical evidence so far to support how often IP spoofing is done," he said. "In reality, I suspect fairly few pirates actually go to the trouble of disguising themselves. Besides which, just because the method is not perfect, doesn't mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing, does it?"

The notion that piracy does not equate to lost sales is just as erroneous. "Piracy might result in an eventual purchase of a game, but in the meantime it means a financial loss for the developer," Purewal said. "Sadly developers are not gamer banks, willing to effectively loan gamers money until we decide we like them enough to pay them."

Even though Purewal is a lawyer and should therefor be on board for litigation solving all problems, he's also a gamer. The solution to piracy should come from publishers offering better ways for customers to enjoy their games, not suing willy-nilly. "If we can reduce piracy through the means of technology and via the market, then that's got to be better than getting lawyers involved," he said. He applauds platforms like Steam that are a form of DRM which don't slap paying customers in the face.

The arguments for game piracy seem a bit flimsy in response to stories like CD Projekt's DRM-less Witcher 2 being pirated more than it was purchased or this abominable list of pirated games from TorrentFreak. The games industry can't just ignore these thefts, and no amount of backwards logic can argue the impact of piracy away.

Permalink

What happens when the lawyers get it wrong?

What's funny about CD Projekt, is that they're doing their convictions in Germany, where people are guilty until proven innocent. When the law firm that committed this shakedown got in trouble in the UK, they headed right to a country where a woman who had no internet has to pay over 600 Euros for a crime she didn't commit.

Let's not forget that IP addresses aren't a real name and may not collect the person who did the infringement. But I guess this lawyer's argument was the part actually destroyed, since he has yet to respond to TF's more accurate reporting of the problems of stopping this infringement on people's civil liberties.

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