Piracy, Not Consoles, Killed the PC Exclusive

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Well they say that the Witcher 2 was pirated as much as it was paid for. I'm fairly confident that a few of the people that pirated it either bought it later or used it as a demo.

Here's the sad and unavoidable truth though! there's NO WAY of knowing that for sure! even with a survey, people would just lie.
As a Publisher, what are you to do? Because frankly you never really know.

Treblaine:

LiquidSolstice:

Treblaine:

17 games in 13 years. Pretty good for one studio.

"The only games on those list that they've actually made themselves are the first two"

Incorrect, all of those are developed by people employed in and integrated with Valve. If you are employed by valve and you make a game for them... that makes it a Valve game. Without any ambiguity. It's a blatant falsehood to state otherwise.

Valve don't steal ideas from modders THEY HIRE THE MODDERS! That is the RIGHT THING TO DO! Hire the talent and employ their good ideas into a game more refined that would be reasonably practical as a mod made in spare time distributed for free.

Activision did the same thing, they hired the developers who made Medal of Honor: Allied Assault, who would go on to form Infinity Ward and make the Call of Duty series. No one objected to Activision doing that. They objected to other things activision did, but not that.

It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood". I'm done arguing with you, you just refuse to see Valve for what they are (which you can see at the same time as loving their games, it's not an either-or thing). I'm not saying Valve is bad, I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about their lineup, and you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies.

I get it, Valve is a gaming God to you. That's awesome, but every single time someone tries to point out to you the obvious, you always have an excuse ("They're using the same engine, so what" , "they charge WAY less" , "they don't STEAL IDEAS FROM MODDERS", "their games are unique" etc etc).

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

"I don't like the way you see my games. Ergo. your thoughts are worthless. YOU JUST IGNANT!"

This just proves my point from my above post. Newsflash, buddy? I've played every single fucking Valve game, each time expecting something fresh, and only finding it within Portal. So you can shove your holier-than-thou attitude back up from whence the fuck it came, because I'm getting a little tired of your entire point consisting of you belittling anyone who does not think Valve is amazing and godly and unique and awesome.

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

You'll have to forgive me if I sound short at all in this post (I'm not sure if I do), while having this civil discussion with you, I'm also arguing with someone who is incredibly stubborn and loyal to their dev of choice, and it's getting more and more irrational as we go.

AhumbleKnight:

I was referring to people talking about the pirating of the 'Humble Bundle'. Sorry, I should have been more specific. I don't like to talk about or even hear about how many pirate because of X reason because it is all theoretical based of unknown variables or guess work. My point was, people pirate for various reasons. Convenience, ease and accessibility can be improved.

I can certainly agree with that.

AhumbleKnight:

It happens frequently enough for it to be an issue and it is bloody annoying when it happens. People tend to make a lot of noise when they have paid money for a product that does not work (arguably faulty). There is no return policies for games. I would happily shut up about DRM forever if I could take my game back or contact my digital distribution vendor and say 'this game isn't working for me, I wont my money back'... like you can with everything else you spend money on.

I suppose I have to disagree with you on this. The ratio of number of sales vs amount of complaining I hear (which granted, I can't hear it all) seems to be in favor of sales, and I say this because I do not believe gamers would have continued loyalty to a publisher of the DRM if it consistently failed to work properly. I stand by my original stance; those who vocalize their issues with DRM, and furthermore, those who actually have issues with DRM are even less (because people like to bitch about things that don't affect them)

Fair enough, except for the 'hell of a lot' easier part. It will be a bit easier. I don't see how piracy being easy compared to piracy being very easy will make much if any difference.
Edit: DRM makes things slighly more difficult for the paying customer while DRM free makes it slightly easyer for the pirater. I like the option that has the paying customer happy.

Well, I made that statement with the following assumption based off your original list (at least, I think it was you) of steps to pirate a game. If the game was simply distributed as a setup file, that needed nothing more than the usual "Location" and "Pick which components to install" dialogs, it would certainly be easier than have to crack a game. Also, the update process would probably be equally easier, because rather than wait for the pirated update to come out, you could do it officially. There is no downside for a pirate, especially when the pirate realizes all of this is "free".

Treblaine:

If It is your my OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're my own weird opinion but and it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

Fixed your quote to show the complete irony.

I am sorry I can't respond to each and everyone of you who replied to me earlier but that is just to much work.

You all seem to think I am somehow defending piracy and am also a pirate just because I am stating a fact. Some pirated games are equal to a lost sale but not 100% and it is certainly not what is "killing" the pc exclusive.

Yes it is entirely possible for people to not be interested in a game and pirate it. This is how steam sales work something is a marked price and then drops and suddenly at $5 you look at that game and buy it on an impulse only in this case the sale price is free.

Now I urge you all to step off your high horse for a moment and actually think. If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

Hisher:
If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

Actually, in economics, we have a concept for that called "Tragedy of the Commons".
It's a theory that explains the marginal thinking for uncontrolled resources and public goods, though it can also be used for any goods that behave like the above ("Freeloaders" for public goods are similar in practice to pirates, though not quite the same).

Hisher:
Now I urge you all to step off your high horse for a moment and actually think. If somebody sees a box labeled free shit they might just take it and it might not have been something they ever wanted but it was free so they took it.

The box isn't labeled "free". Some cheap kid came over to it with a sharpie and wrote "free" on it.

LiquidSolstice:

Treblaine:

If It is your my OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're my own weird opinion but and it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

Fixed your quote to show the complete irony.

The irony is with YOUR expectations, not mine.

I have shown OBJECTIVELY how distinct they are:

-Half life 2: Single-player story driven FPS adventure through a multi-hour contiguous campaign fighting futuristic SWAT forces, giant alien insects and slow tough zombies, set in a future earth overtaken by an alien power.

-Left 4 Dead: online co-op (and counter-op) multiplayer game, playing through a series of short hour-long campaigns set in a present day zombie apocalypse shooting through thousands of fast moving zombiefied people as well as powerful mutations.

-Team Fortress 2: fantastical abstract retro-futuristic 1960's, team-based competitive multiplayer with 9 very distinct classes and varying weapons loadout fighting over objectives such as King-of-the-hill, capture the flag Intelligence, and payload escorting a bomb into the enemy base.

-Portal: no firearms or direct weapons, just a portal gun that can bend space, forced to solve puzzles in a test facility that a sadistic and all powerful artificial intelligence has taken over.

-Counterstrike: small competitive teams in modern day setting terrorist vs counterterrorist confrontation, to rescue hostages or plant bomb or till the entire enemy team is eliminated. Each round earns money that allows more and better weapons and equipment to be bought for each subsequent round.

-Alien Swarm: top-down sci-fi shooter, teams advance through futuristic installations against waves of insect like aliens

-Dota 2: top-down fantasy arena fighter, individuals fight with magic and medieval weaponry agaisnt other player controlled opponents.

These are not opinions. These are facts.

Name one GAMEPLAY aspect all Valve games have in common?

LiquidSolstice:

Treblaine:

LiquidSolstice:

It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood". I'm done arguing with you, you just refuse to see Valve for what they are (which you can see at the same time as loving their games, it's not an either-or thing). I'm not saying Valve is bad, I'm just pointing out a well-known fact about their lineup, and you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies.

I get it, Valve is a gaming God to you. That's awesome, but every single time someone tries to point out to you the obvious, you always have an excuse ("They're using the same engine, so what" , "they charge WAY less" , "they don't STEAL IDEAS FROM MODDERS", "their games are unique" etc etc).

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

"I don't like the way you see my games. Ergo. your thoughts are worthless. YOU JUST IGNANT!"

This just proves my point from my above post. Newsflash, buddy? I've played every single fucking Valve game, each time expecting something fresh, and only finding it within Portal. So you can shove your holier-than-thou attitude back up from whence the fuck it came, because I'm getting a little tired of your entire point consisting of you belittling anyone who does not think Valve is amazing and godly and unique and awesome.

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

"You have ZERO facts in your post"

Not true. I have presented plenty of facts, that are relevant too.
.

"I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth."

I never did. Read what I said properly.
.

"an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine"

I'm not disputing that they use the same engine!

I dispute that using-the-same-engine means the games are indistinct! I bring in Unreal 3 as a perfect example of how your reasoning is wrong, that "same engine = same game" as all those VERY DISTINCT games use the same Unreal 3 engine.

You don't seem to understand what Rationalization, Straw man nor Pathetic means... or you are deliberately misusing them.

Let's get this out there. Valve games ARE unique (with Portal being the most unique). Their FPS's with hugely different playstyles, tone, structure and challenge across single-player, co-op, and multiplayer. All built on a highly Source engine, highly modified for each game. They feel totally different, with a completely different shooting or fighting challenge. They have branched out of FPS style many times and successfully. I dare you to find a single developer that has more varied game styles in the games they put out. Not a publisher (who can commission a dozen outside studios) a single developer.

Look, lets make this simple:

Tell me in what WAYS all of Valve's games are indistinct from Half Life 2?

Don't just say "the shooting is the same", describe how shooting in Valve games is more similar to each other THAN ANY OTHER GAME.

Yes, describe how the shooting in Left 4 Dead is more similar to Half Life 2, that shooting in L4D is similar to FEAR.

LiquidSolstice:
You'll have to forgive me if I sound short at all in this post (I'm not sure if I do), while having this civil discussion with you, I'm also arguing with someone who is incredibly stubborn and loyal to their dev of choice, and it's getting more and more irrational as we go.

Thats fine. I have been watching your argument with interest but I have refrained from getting involved with it because it is oh so off topic. *struggles to contain opinion*

LiquidSolstice:

AhumbleKnight:

It happens frequently enough for it to be an issue and it is bloody annoying when it happens. People tend to make a lot of noise when they have paid money for a product that does not work (arguably faulty). There is no return policies for games. I would happily shut up about DRM forever if I could take my game back or contact my digital distribution vendor and say 'this game isn't working for me, I wont my money back'... like you can with everything else you spend money on.

I suppose I have to disagree with you on this. The ratio of number of sales vs amount of complaining I hear (which granted, I can't hear it all) seems to be in favour of sales, and I say this because I do not believe gamers would have continued loyalty to a publisher of the DRM if it consistently failed to work properly. I stand by my original stance; those who vocalise their issues with DRM, and furthermore, those who actually have issues with DRM are even less (because people like to bitch about things that don't affect them)

My comment was less about how much complaining there is, because this is the internet and it has more bitching that it has lol catz, and more about the viability of legitimate complaints about DRM being a disadvantage to the customer. In my opinion, a company should be concerned about any percentage of its customers having problems with their product, regardless of how small a percentage that my be. Especial when it's not the product, but the product protection. I dislike using shitty metaphors but hey, here goes... it would be like a electronics company selling TV's that had a lock on the product to stop thieves using it, except sometimes the key that the customer received didn't work with their lock, so the customer has to ass about contacting the supplier trying to get a key that does work (sometimes being called a thief in the process).

LiquidSolstice:

Fair enough, except for the 'hell of a lot' easier part. It will be a bit easier. I don't see how piracy being easy compared to piracy being very easy will make much if any difference.
Edit: DRM makes things slightly more difficult for the paying customer while DRM free makes it slightly easier for the pirater. I like the option that has the paying customer happy.

Well, I made that statement with the following assumption based off your original list (at least, I think it was you) of steps to pirate a game. If the game was simply distributed as a setup file, that needed nothing more than the usual "Location" and "Pick which components to install" dialogs, it would certainly be easier than have to crack a game. Also, the update process would probably be equally easier, because rather than wait for the pirated update to come out, you could do it officially. There is no downside for a pirate, especially when the pirate realizes all of this is "free".

Yes it was my list. Yep, fair enough assumption.
I stand by my point that 'they' should be trying to make things easyer for the customer, not harder for the pirate. Because harder for the pirate = harder for the customer as well.

Again, I feel like pointing out that it is not PC exclusives that are on the decline as much as it is ALL exclusives on the decline. This is because the amount of games being sold cross platform are increasing. This is a great thing. We are also starting to see games being sold with licences for all platforms (ie. you buy the game once, and play it on every supported device). Next I hope we see games being networked across platforms. That would be awesome (but extremely difficult to do well). All this has nothing to do with piracy. Just good and bad games.

Treblaine:

LiquidSolstice:

Treblaine:

"It seems your strategy when presented with any kind of inconvenient truth blatant falsehood is to simply call it a "blatant falsehood"."

Fixed.

I have proven what you have said is false. You ignore that proof and continue to assert your baseless untruth. Truth is a matter of evidence, not a matter of badgering people repeating your assertions till accepted.

And I never said nor indicated Valve was "perfect", you saying that I do is both inaccurate and irrelevant personal attack that dodges the objective refutation. Your claims of Valve games being indistinct remain untrue and I proved that without subjectivity. That is, it doesn't matter what my stance is, my argument stands on its own. YOUR assertion is entirely based on your word being worth more than facts, or worse, your word alone is fact.

To reiterate:
-HL2: futuristic fantasy-realism action-adventure First person shooter
-Team Fortress 2: Class-based, objective centred competitive-teams multiplayer retro-abstract-aubsurdist FPS on closed maps
-Left 4 Dead: gritty co-op zombie killing FPS through short campaigns with special-character counter-op.
-Portal: puzzle first-person game using space bending devices in test complex with homicidal AI program that has total control

Your game-engine logic is also flawed as you don't seem to realise how many different, varied and distinct games can use the same game engine, like for example the Unreal Engine 3:
-Batman: Arkham Asylum (third-person predatory stealth + beat-em-up)
-Gears of War 3 (third person cover shooter)
-Borderlands (First person stylised shooter RPG-lite)
-Kinect Aventures (third person waggle game)
-Mirror's Edge (Bright/clean First Person Platformer/Parkour)
-Shadow Complex (2.5D side scrolling Metroidvania game)
-Tom Clancy's Endwar (RTS)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games#Unreal_Engine_3

You say all Valve games are indistinct just because they all use the Source engine... it is undeniable that by the same logic all these games are indistinct because they all use the Unreal 3 engine!

"you're taking it as though I've just stabbed your children and then took a dump on their dead bodies."

That's irrelevant and disgusting. Your posts are totally out of order.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/7.343687.13831889

I'm not belittling anyone, you're the one hurling insults and referencing scatological infanticide.

I call you ignorant because you are, not as an insult. You really do seem to be ignorant of game design.

You post made-up quotes from me in attempt at a personal attack. I use your ACTUAL QUOTES to demonstrate how flawed your logic is something self-evident.

Playing Valve games does not mean you can post ignorance and untruths about them without being challenged. If you don't like intellectual challenge then just ignore me, when you see my replies in your feed, just delete them if you don't like them, but don't think you can censor me. I'm not PM'ing you, I'm posting for the wider forum discussion. And I'm not the only one, others have challenged you as well.

If it is your OPINION that all valve games are indistinct, well that's you're own weird opinion but it doesn't really add any discussion value. It is certainly not fact nor indicative of anything.

So much rationalization over an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine, and although there was potential for them to be dramatically different, they aren't.

Pathetic. You can't deny that all the Source/Half-Life engine games are the same, so you bring Unreal 3 into the mix? Hmmm, not liking my stance, creating an alternate stance (that I think all game engines are the same), and then attacking that instead?

What's that called again? It has something to do with straw...

No, Unreal 3 is used to make genuinely different games, not rehashes that are sold for cheap to a crowd that will gladly eat anything that their godly dev puts on their plates (even if it was last night's leftovers with a bit of cheese sprinkled on).

Nothing you've said has changed anything I've said, so while you keep repeating "blatant falsehood" like a broken record while simultaneously using a completely different engine and set of games as a comparison, I'll just be sitting here laughing at you.

Also, I'm not a coward. I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth. So far you're the only one who's trying to defend Valve, and in fact, someone else tried to explain to you the same thing that I did.

You have ZERO facts in your post (except what seems to be the tagline that Steam advertises said game with), and your stance just consists of nothing more than you getting offended that someone isn't praising Valve.

Let's get this out there. Valve games are not unique (with Portal being the exception). They're all FPSes with small gimmicks added to them and they're all built on the same engine. They feel the same, you're just shooting at something different in each one.

"You have ZERO facts in your post"

Not true. I have presented plenty of facts, that are relevant too.
.

"I never have and never will ask anyone to "PM me" to finish a discussion, don't put words in my mouth."

I never did. Read what I said properly.
.

"an indisputable fact; they all use the same engine"

I'm not disputing that they use the same engine!

I dispute that using-the-same-engine means the games are indistinct! I bring in Unreal 3 as a perfect example of how your reasoning is wrong, that "same engine = same game" as all those VERY DISTINCT games use the same Unreal 3 engine.

You don't seem to understand what Rationalization, Straw man nor Pathetic means... or you are deliberately misusing them.

Let's get this out there. Valve games ARE unique (with Portal being the most unique). Their FPS's with hugely different playstyles, tone, structure and challenge across single-player, co-op, and multiplayer. All built on a highly Source engine, highly modified for each game. They feel totally different, with a completely different shooting or fighting challenge. They have branched out of FPS style many times and successfully. I dare you to find a single developer that has more varied game styles in the games they put out. Not a publisher (who can commission a dozen outside studios) a single developer.

Look, lets make this simple:

Tell me in what WAYS all of Valve's games are indistinct from Half Life 2?

Don't just say "the shooting is the same", describe how shooting in Valve games is more similar to each other THAN ANY OTHER GAME.

Yes, describe how the shooting in Left 4 Dead is more similar to Half Life 2, that shooting in L4D is similar to FEAR.

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

AhumbleKnight:

My comment was less about how much complaining there is, because this is the internet and it has more bitching that it has lol catz, and more about the viability of legitimate complaints about DRM being a disadvantage to the customer. In my opinion, a company should be concerned about any percentage of its customers having problems with their product, regardless of how small a percentage that my be. Especial when it's not the product, but the product protection. I dislike using shitty metaphors but hey, here goes... it would be like a electronics company selling TV's that had a lock on the product to stop thieves using it, except sometimes the key that the customer received didn't work with their lock, so the customer has to ass about contacting the supplier trying to get a key that does work (sometimes being called a thief in the process).

I can absolutely understand the indignity of DRM (as well as the inconvenience). I don't doubt that it's an issue, I guess in my eyes I feel the amount of successful installs outweigh the unsuccessful ones. Do I think DRM could be improved? Absolutely. At least, if nothing else, customer service should be based on some sort of proof of purchase that cannot be disputed to prevent headaches during support requests.

Yes it was my list. Yep, fair enough assumption.
I stand by my point that 'they' should be trying to make things easyer for the customer, not harder for the pirate. Because harder for the pirate = harder for the customer as well.

I agree with that sentiment, but surely you can also agree that it goes both ways; the easier it is for the consumer, the easier it is for the pirate. I suppose it just depends on your outlook of it all.

LiquidSolstice:

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

-I do not remember saying I intend to put you on any ignore list
-I do not advertise for Valve nor anyone, my motivation is countering untruths
-I am not unduly loyal to any video game company.
-I have not been making granular if differentiations, I have presented facts of the large and fundamental differences

OK? What you've said about Valve is incorrect. And I've proven that you are wrong on this matter using facts.

I hope you can accept the facts of the matter and lets try to not make this personal.

Treblaine:

LiquidSolstice:

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

-I do not remember saying I intend to put you on any ignore list
-I do not advertise for Valve nor anyone, my motivation is countering untruths
-I am not unduly loyal to any video game company.
-I have not been making granular if differentiations, I have presented facts of the large and fundamental differences

OK? What you've said about Valve is incorrect. And I've proven that you are wrong on this matter using facts.

I hope you can accept the facts of the matter and lets try to not make this personal.

As I said before, your posts about Valve games are just broken-record advertisements that appear to be taken from a combination of an undying love for the games (which I respect) and the tagline that is given to entice people into buying the games. Fundamentally, they look, feel, (and with the exception of portal) play the same; no amount of granular detail from you will change that. You are not countering untruths, and you have no "proven" anything. You are simply attempting to counter the only fact that has been stated during this entire conversation; With the exception of few, every single game Valve makes is a variation of HL or HL2. It's just what the facts are. It's not a huge problem, and it's nothing to be ashamed about (although you seem to be), but trying to deny it, rationalize it, compare it to other game engines, or anything else you've tried is just sad.

Like I said, I'm done talking to you about it. If you really feel the need to fit in another "last-word" post to satisfy your ego, so be it.

Hisher:
I am sorry I can't respond to each and everyone of you who replied to me earlier but that is just to much work.

You all seem to think I am somehow defending piracy and am also a pirate just because I am stating a fact. Some pirated games are equal to a lost sale but not 100% and it is certainly not what is "killing" the pc exclusive.

So if piracy isn't killing the PC exclusive what is?
(And don't say DRM because Steam is the most prevalent DRM around and most people are willing to bend over and take it, while singing Valve's praises)

I'm honestly tired of pro-piracy arguments, like:
1. Not every download is a lost sale because some people would never have bought it
2. Some people who pirate the game buy it later
3. etcetera

What about the opposite
1. Some downloads ARE a lost sale
2. Many people who pirate and play a game DO NOT buy it later

No one ever mentions that side of the equation do they. Gee I wonder why.

LiquidSolstice:

Treblaine:

LiquidSolstice:

Your posts are nothing more than advertisements for Valve games based on what's obviously your loyalty to the dev. I'm actually done arguing with you. This is just circular reasoning. Each time you just try and get more granular about the differences in the games and I'm just going in the opposite direction.

Have fun playing Half Life.

Also, if you're going to put me on your ignore list, actually do it this time, kay? Cool.

-I do not remember saying I intend to put you on any ignore list
-I do not advertise for Valve nor anyone, my motivation is countering untruths
-I am not unduly loyal to any video game company.
-I have not been making granular if differentiations, I have presented facts of the large and fundamental differences

OK? What you've said about Valve is incorrect. And I've proven that you are wrong on this matter using facts.

I hope you can accept the facts of the matter and lets try to not make this personal.

As I said before, your posts about Valve games are just broken-record advertisements that appear to be taken from a combination of an undying love for the games (which I respect) and the tagline that is given to entice people into buying the games. Fundamentally, they look, feel, (and with the exception of portal) play the same; no amount of granular detail from you will change that. You are not countering untruths, and you have no "proven" anything. You are simply attempting to counter the only fact that has been stated during this entire conversation; With the exception of few, every single game Valve makes is a variation of HL or HL2. It's just what the facts are. It's not a huge problem, and it's nothing to be ashamed about (although you seem to be), but trying to deny it, rationalize it, compare it to other game engines, or anything else you've tried is just sad.

Like I said, I'm done talking to you about it. If you really feel the need to fit in another "last-word" post to satisfy your ego, so be it.

I'm sorry, you don't seem to understand what a "fact" is. You can't just say it is so and therefore it is a fact, where is YOUR evidence?

I give facts, evidence, solid and objective proof. What have you given other than repeat the same assertions? You say I'm a broken record when you've repeated the "advertising" accusation in the first sentence twice in a row now.

It is simply not true that Valve games play any more similarly to Half Life 2 to any other than other FPS game. Similarities between say L4D and HL2 are also seen between Half Life 2 and F.E.A.R. And I don't know if you really fail to comprehend or your are deliberately refusing to recognise the purpose of the Unreal 3 engine comparison.

I've deal with people like you before, how you will seemingly ignore and deny all evidence, it's quite extraordinary. Also common is the casual reference to vile acts like killing my children and defecating on them. WTF dude, where the hell did that come from?!? And don't try to deny you went there, you did. And littered with so many petty personal insults speculating that I am ashamed and outright calling me sad and pathetic and of course starting it all off with some good old Godwin's law style fascism labelling.

Do you think this is acceptable?

I'd like you to have the last word explaining your conduct.

LiquidSolstice:

--snip --

Yes it was my list. Yep, fair enough assumption.
I stand by my point that 'they' should be trying to make things easyer for the customer, not harder for the pirate. Because harder for the pirate = harder for the customer as well.

I agree with that sentiment, but surely you can also agree that it goes both ways; the easier it is for the consumer, the easier it is for the pirate. I suppose it just depends on your outlook of it all.

I can agree that it does go both ways. It really does depend on your outlook. It being a choice for the company to take a customer centric business model or a profit centric business model. These are not mutually exclusive. One will see less profits in the short term while receiving a higher rate of repeat custom and customer loyalty. The other will see higher profits in the short term and a reduced rate in customer loyalty. There are great examples of game dev's/publishers that fit snugly in both categories (Valve and EA respectively). If I was the CEO of an entertainment company I would be pushing for the former, not the latter.

Akalabeth:

Hisher:
I am sorry I can't respond to each and everyone of you who replied to me earlier but that is just to much work.

You all seem to think I am somehow defending piracy and am also a pirate just because I am stating a fact. Some pirated games are equal to a lost sale but not 100% and it is certainly not what is "killing" the pc exclusive.

So if piracy isn't killing the PC exclusive what is?
(And don't say DRM because Steam is the most prevalent DRM around and most people are willing to bend over and take it, while singing Valve's praises)

I'm honestly tired of pro-piracy arguments, like:
1. Not every download is a lost sale because some people would never have bought it
2. Some people who pirate the game buy it later
3. etcetera

What about the opposite
1. Some downloads ARE a lost sale
2. Many people who pirate and play a game DO NOT buy it later

No one ever mentions that side of the equation do they. Gee I wonder why.

Those pro-piracy arguments you mention are also anti-anti-piracy. That is to say, people mention them because they are sick of hearing about the anti-piracy aguments stating that all downloads are a lost sale etc.
And people do mention the opposite. Infact:
'Not every download is a lost sale because some people would never have bought it' = 'Some downloads ARE a lost sale'

If you read through every page of this thread you will find posts mentioning everything you said 'no one ever mentions'. A lot of people are starting to get shitty with all the absolutes flying around in this debate and feel the need to point out that things are not absolute and any claims as to numbers/percentages/odds/etc are mearly guesswork. The DRM vs piracy argument is (hopefully) finally starting to shift away from absolutes and into customer vs dev/publisher vs pirate.

Akalabeth:

So if piracy isn't killing the PC exclusive what is?
(And don't say DRM because Steam is the most prevalent DRM around and most people are willing to bend over and take it, while singing Valve's praises)

I'm honestly tired of pro-piracy arguments, like:
1. Not every download is a lost sale because some people would never have bought it
2. Some people who pirate the game buy it later
3. etcetera

What about the opposite
1. Some downloads ARE a lost sale
2. Many people who pirate and play a game DO NOT buy it later

No one ever mentions that side of the equation do they. Gee I wonder why.

No that's the only side of the argument that ever gets mentioned and every time someone like me comes around we get labeled as pro piracy.

Shitty DRM is certainly a problem there are quite a few games me and many others won't touch because of it. Steam may be DRM but it doesn't stop me from playing my games or limit how many times I can install or for how long.

And a partial quote of myself from earlier.

Hisher:

It is time that piracy stops being blamed for "killing" PC exclusives when it is far more likely to be the fault of laziness, bad game design, horrible DRM, and the fact that the console market is larger and easier to sell to.

Hisher:

Shitty DRM is certainly a problem there are quite a few games me and many others won't touch because of it. Steam may be DRM but it doesn't stop me from playing my games or limit how many times I can install or for how long.

Unless you don't have an internet connection in which case you cannot play your store-bought game at all. Which is damnable in my opinion. No company should ever put a box in a store that contains 95% of a game. If it's not playable out of the box, as is, it's a broken and incomplete product.

And a partial quote of myself from earlier.

Hisher:

It is time that piracy stops being blamed for "killing" PC exclusives when it is far more likely to be the fault of laziness, bad game design, horrible DRM, and the fact that the console market is larger and easier to sell to.

The thing is, if I were to ask you to qualify some of those points you would probably point to recent practices. But the decline of the PC is not a recent event, it's one that's been ongoing for years now. One has to wonder whether those points, even if valid today, were valid years ago when this decline started to happen.

DRM back in the day used to just be a code you put in. It used to be keeping the disc in the drive while you play the game. These are hardly "horrible" measures by any stretch. It's only compartively recently that we've seen nonsense like ubisoft's "always on" DRM and the like.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would suspect that the decline of the PC exclusive can be linked to the prevalence and speed of the internet. That being, the convenience of downloading content over previous years. And if that suspicion is indeed the case then the obvious correlation to the decline of the exclusive and PC gaming in general is piracy, because with increased download speeds and greater freedom comes greater accesibility.

Akalabeth:

Hisher:

Shitty DRM is certainly a problem there are quite a few games me and many others won't touch because of it. Steam may be DRM but it doesn't stop me from playing my games or limit how many times I can install or for how long.

Unless you don't have an internet connection in which case you cannot play your store-bought game at all. Which is damnable in my opinion. No company should ever put a box in a store that contains 95% of a game. If it's not playable out of the box, as is, it's a broken and incomplete product.

And a partial quote of myself from earlier.

Hisher:

It is time that piracy stops being blamed for "killing" PC exclusives when it is far more likely to be the fault of laziness, bad game design, horrible DRM, and the fact that the console market is larger and easier to sell to.

The thing is, if I were to ask you to qualify some of those points you would probably point to recent practices. But the decline of the PC is not a recent event, it's one that's been ongoing for years now. One has to wonder whether those points, even if valid today, were valid years ago when this decline started to happen.

DRM back in the day used to just be a code you put in. It used to be keeping the disc in the drive while you play the game. These are hardly "horrible" measures by any stretch. It's only compartively recently that we've seen nonsense like ubisoft's "always on" DRM and the like.

If I were to hazard a guess, I would suspect that the decline of the PC exclusive can be linked to the prevalence and speed of the internet. That being, the convenience of downloading content over previous years. And if that suspicion is indeed the case then the obvious correlation to the decline of the exclusive and PC gaming in general is piracy, because with increased download speeds and greater freedom comes greater accesibility.

If you don't have an internet connection all you have to do is start steam in offline mode anything that hinders gameplay after that is not the fault of steam but of whatever DRM was packaged with it by the developer or publisher and that I agree is damnable.

To be completely honest I don't believe PC exclusives are really in decline at all it just seems so because consoles are a much bigger share of the market and that is the main focus of the industry right now.

Edit: If there is a decline of anything it is in game quality which in my opinion is being caused by to much focus on graphical capability and trying to make games appeal to a wider audience or more accessible.

Hisher:
If you don't have an internet connection all you have to do is start steam in offline mode anything that hinders gameplay after that is not the fault of steam but of whatever DRM was packaged with it by the developer or publisher and that I agree is damnable.

Um, incorrect. I bought the Half Life 1 collection for example, I think that's the first time I actually started using Steam. The box I bought didn't include the full game, only about 95% of it, if I hadn't had an internet connnection, I would've been unable to get the final 5% and play the game. While it is true that Steam allow you to play games offline, you do at some point need to be online to get the game running at all.

Akalabeth:

Hisher:
If you don't have an internet connection all you have to do is start steam in offline mode anything that hinders gameplay after that is not the fault of steam but of whatever DRM was packaged with it by the developer or publisher and that I agree is damnable.

Um, incorrect. I bought the Half Life 1 collection for example, I think that's the first time I actually started using Steam. The box I bought didn't include the full game, only about 95% of it, if I hadn't had an internet connnection, I would've been unable to get the final 5% and play the game. While it is true that Steam allow you to play games offline, you do at some point need to be online to get the game running at all.

Okay I see what you are saying now. With physical media you should definitely not be forced to connect to the internet at all to play your game the one time activation included with the disk was a much better solution and having to download the last part or activate it online with even something like project ten dollar should be frowned upon. For digital distribution I still don't think it gets much better than steam.

................

Legit101:
Well if the game is shit, I don't blame the piracy.
If they pirate the game and it's shit, it's not a lost sale since they'd probably return the game if they could.

You don't know that. That's the whole point. You don't know whether they would have bought the game or returned it.

The only thing you do know is that they are experiencing the game without compensating the developer for it at all. This isn't rocket science, but it appears to be an absolute playground for people to come out and play with the swingsets of rationalization and justification based on nothing more than assumptions.

When your game just isn't that interesting and it doesn't sell well, blame piracy!

Sylveria:

Sober Thal:
Poor Titan Quest...

Thanks PC gaming pirates... thanks for fucking that up.

I also find the last line interesting : "It's really, really hard to be profitable by concentrating only on PC," he said. "Unless you're an MMO."

Wasn't the idea of Kingdoms of Amawhatever supposed to be the intro for their MMO game?

Yeah, darn pirates, they ruin all the PC games, except for all those hugely successful ones.

Oh, hey, crazy thought, but maybe, just maybe, good games sell and bad games don't?

Titan Quest was a good game. And pirates all but literally gutted it.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

I was in the "good games sell, bad games don't" camp too for awhile. But then I realized that same argument can be flipped on its head. If a game you think is awful sells a bajillion copies on release day, it's still 'bad', which contradicts the notion that only 'good' games sell. And voila, we arrive at the reason this statement is a logical fallacy: Success and popularity =/= Quality and craftsmanship.

Kinda sounds like the ultimate irony.

The PC elites who so fuss about the decline of the PC games are the ones causing it with their piracy.

And then they defend their piracy too. Can't have it both ways.

hooksashands:

Sylveria:

Sober Thal:
Poor Titan Quest...

Thanks PC gaming pirates... thanks for fucking that up.

I also find the last line interesting : "It's really, really hard to be profitable by concentrating only on PC," he said. "Unless you're an MMO."

Wasn't the idea of Kingdoms of Amawhatever supposed to be the intro for their MMO game?

Yeah, darn pirates, they ruin all the PC games, except for all those hugely successful ones.

Oh, hey, crazy thought, but maybe, just maybe, good games sell and bad games don't?

Titan Quest was a good game. And pirates all but literally gutted it.

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

I was in the "good games sell, bad games don't" camp too for awhile. But then I realized that same argument can be flipped on its head. If a game you think is awful sells a bajillion copies on release day, it's still 'bad', which contradicts the notion that only 'good' games sell. And voila, we arrive at the reason this statement is a logical fallacy: Success and popularity =/= Quality and craftsmanship.

The pirates didn't give it a 77% metascore rating (professional reviewers review legit copies), nor reputation as a generic Diablo clone at a time when Diablo 2 was still so highly lauded, nor the extreme lack of marketing. Nor did piracy cause them to spend a lot of money developing a sequel that they didn't release which was ultimately what caused the company to default.

Titan Quest may have been a good game, but back in 2006 to much of the market looking to buy the game it did NOT look like a safe bet.

Treblaine:
The pirates didn't give it a 77% metascore rating (professional reviewers review legit copies), nor reputation as a generic Diablo clone at a time when Diablo 2 was still so highly lauded, nor the extreme lack of marketing. Nor did piracy cause them to spend a lot of money developing a sequel that they didn't release which was ultimately what caused the company to default.

Titan Quest may have been a good game, but back in 2006 to much of the market looking to buy the game it did NOT look like a safe bet.

Describe 77% to me. What does that even MEAN? If they need a percentile rating system to tell them whether or not they're allowed to enjoy a game, then I weep for humanity. And how is the lack of marketing their fault? They can only hype their game as much as their publishers can afford, and since a pitiful amount of people actually bought TQ, the reason they couldn't push their product is because everyone fucking stole it, not because they were working on a sequel. I'm sorry, but I really can't find fault with a studio making a follow-up before their first game has even had time to crash and burn. If anything, that just shows how hard they're willing to work and how dedicated they are as a creative team despite the atmosphere of utter hopelessness. If your first game is stillborn and the second one is a miscarriage, you better believe you're still gonna remember it when making the third.

hooksashands:

Treblaine:
The pirates didn't give it a 77% metascore rating (professional reviewers review legit copies), nor reputation as a generic Diablo clone at a time when Diablo 2 was still so highly lauded, nor the extreme lack of marketing. Nor did piracy cause them to spend a lot of money developing a sequel that they didn't release which was ultimately what caused the company to default.

Titan Quest may have been a good game, but back in 2006 to much of the market looking to buy the game it did NOT look like a safe bet.

Describe 77% to me. What does that even MEAN? If they need a percentile rating system to tell them whether or not they're allowed to enjoy a game, then I weep for humanity. And how is the lack of marketing their fault? They can only hype their game as much as their publishers can afford, and since a pitiful amount of people actually bought TQ, the reason they couldn't push their product is because everyone fucking stole it, not because they were working on a sequel. I'm sorry, but I really can't find fault with a studio making a follow-up before their first game has even had time to crash and burn. If anything, that just shows how hard they're willing to work and how dedicated they are as a creative team despite the atmosphere of utter hopelessness. If your first game is stillborn and the second one is a miscarriage, you better believe you're still gonna remember it when making the third.

77% doesn't mean anything about the game itself.

It just doesn't look very good to people who HAVEN'T tried the game, it doesn't mean the game is ACTUALLY bad, it just means on average the critics were pretty harsh on it. It already looks like a Diablo clone, and metascore just means on average the critics were harsher to it.

I recommend Titan Quest, but you can see why a lot of people might have skipped it.

It's not their "fault" they have a lack of marketing, but is IS a factor.

JonnWood:

Doom972:
It seems companies like Valve, CD Projekt (I'd mention Blizzard but they do run an MMO) and many indie developers manage just fine even with the piracy.
If you make a good game, people will buy it. If you just make a clone of another successful game (like Titan Quest), don't expect too many people to buy it. Especially if you include annoying DRM.
Yes, the PC does have a piracy problem, but it's not big enough to make developing for it not worth it.

Clearly, developers disagree. See also; Crysis. People are more likely to pirate popular/good games, not less, DRM or not (The Witcher 2). DRM's actual effect is negligible, and no one is responsible for people choosing to pirate their game. That's he equivalent of "She was asking for it, your Honor!"

Crysis 2 was a short, and not very innovative. Some people won't buy a game for 6 hours of single player (remember when demos were as long as that?), but would still like to give it a go.
Witcher 2 was very successful. CDP said that about for every 1 copy sold 2 were pirated IIRC - but I think they took into account countries where where you can almost only get pirated copies (There's an excellent article about such a situation in Brazil, here on the Escapist). Anyway, the game still was a big commercial success.
You can't deny games of good quality (long playing time, replayability, immesion, storytelling, etc) that appeal to the PC audience do become commercial successes.

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