BioWare's Lead Writer Resigns

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SpiderJerusalem:

The_root_of_all_evil:

Mike Kayatta:
but it's their robustly developed stories and characters that seem to define them.

Now, where did I put my Xerox?

A lot of those aren't just limited to Bioware, but any and every form of epic story telling. Also, I'm not entirely sure if the person that wrote that knows what the term "cliché" actually means. They also got a bunch of stuff wrong from the games, making their point even more flimsy.

Is this thing even supposed to be taken seriously ?
I always assumed it was made by someone who realized that Bioware had a certain tendency to utilize certain tropes and themes (just like every author or team of authors in the history of ever) and then whipped up the chart to take the piss.
Yes, as actual literary criticism it's very weak (less because of the inaccuracies, but more because the existence of reoccurring structures of such broad scope in and off itself isn't even a point of criticism. Otherwise Goethe would have to be automatically regarded as shit and Hesse beaten to death with a shovel.), but I refuse to believe it is really meant that way.

Edit: Also, I just noticed your nick.
Combined with your current title, that's fucking awesome ^^

Woodsey:

Irridium:
That's a shame. And doesn't bode well to me. Recent Bioware games, apart from The Old Republic, haven't exactly been stellar narrative-wise. But hopefully the current writers improve over time.

Hopefully.

Fingers crossed they keep the Twilight fans exclusive to the Dragon Age team.

/partiallyfacetiouscomment

What was more concerning was the guy who left last year (?) because he felt they had no interest in making the type of games they'd used to anymore.

LiquidGrape:
I just love how people immediately break out their conspiracy hats.

"EA did it! BioWare is out of control! I didn't like Dragon Age II and I won't rest until everyone hears about it!"

The guy has been working on what is, in writing terms, an incredibly exhausting medium for over a decade now. I wasn't surprised to hear these news at all.

But I'd have to say, I found Karpyshyn a fairly mediocre writer. Better than Mac Walters, but not very enticing at all.
The real writing talent at BioWare is the core team consisting of David Gaider, Sheryl Chee and Mary Kirby, as well as Lukas Kristjanson and Patrick Weekes.

Gaider's the one who went on the forums and said it was fine for them to retcon continuity at the expense of player choice and consequence (ala the Dragon Age 2 ending), so no, not him.

Also the Dragon Age Book he wrote was terrible.

Susurrus:

The Crotch:

Susurrus:

True, but there's a fair amount of cross-over...

Well, let's see. Dropping the Black Isle and Obsidian games from the list, we have:

BG1 Imoen
BG2 Nalia and Imoen
NWN Sharwyn
DAO Leliana

All female rogue-ish characters with red-ish hair, albeit mostly with different personality notes.

Now look at the many, many other "rogues" that they have made that are not on your list. Safana, Kasumi, Isabella, Varric, Alora, Montaron, Jan, Sky, Mission Vao, Zevran, and a few others. Some backstabbing murderers, some fun-loving adventurers, some hardened idealists, some cautious opportunists...

Now, there's undeniably a majority: female thing going on there. And MAYBE a plurality of them have red/pink hair; I haven't looked into it too closely. Bioware definitely runs hard with some tropes, but "all their rogues are alike" is a big oversimplification.

Anyway. Good luck to Karpyshyn. If ya ever come back home, Drew, I owe you a beer for BG2.

Er. I don't know who Kasumi is. I didn't play DA2, so Varric/Isabella are out. You also missed Yoshimo from BG2. My point was not that all rogues are women with red hair. My point was that when they make a female rogue, its usually very much the same one. And they always make one. Also, Safana's portrait has red hair. I think it was Skye (and she's useless, anyway).

wat

"This is pertinent to the point, but I don't know about it, so it doesn't count" does not work. Confirmation bias is a beast that must be hunted and slain, and four women with similar hair colours and skill-sets and differing personalities (At what point is Sharwyn like Imoen?) are not a proper pattern.

You want to argue that Shale was a retread of HK-47? Go for it. Tali turned in to Liara 2.0? I'm with ya. Bastilla and Aribeth were separated at birth? Of course. But you seem to be arguing that there is some recurring archetypal rogue character without defining any characteristics aside from appearance. That I can not get behind, and that I will argue against if I don't have anything better to do at the particular moment like right now because it's 8:30 on a Sunday and none of my friends are online to play Tribes.

fuckin yeah! improvement through changes!

Warachia:
Okay. I will do it:

You are the member of an old and powerfull organization called the: Jedi/Grey Warden/Specters/Spirit Monks. An ancient evil threatens to destroy: the Republic/Ferelden/Known galaxy/Neverwinter. You must gather a band of adventurers(The same 5-6 personalities) and go to a few hubs to: look for the Star Map/Gather allies/thwart Saren/find a cure for the plague/look for the Spirit Monk amulet.

OT: Good. Now they only need to fire Helper and Gaider and then maybe they will start writing good stories and dialog

Warachia:
the grey wardens and spectres are NOT an old powerful Organization.

The grey wardens are, but they, like the Jedi are Special individuals and more powerfull than other people(Jedi and Wardens because they Have the force/are killing machines, Specters because they are above the Law). So it still stands.

Warachia:
The characters have more depth to them than just 5-6 personalities.

What depth? You mean Emo-boys Carth Onasi and Kaidan Alenko. Alistairs and Morringans "were fighting and arguing over stupid things like we're children" personality. To avoid confusion: There are some nicely written characters, but they still feel too similar to companions in other games. Also, the cringe inducing romance don't help. I will give you the characters, but what about the same old "The chosen one saves the world from the big evil" bullshit that they always write in desperate attempt to make the game epic.

Warachia:
and that last point has you doing COMPLETELY SEPERATE THINGS, even generalizing it becomes stupid and you see how it all comes apart. How is looking for a map the same thing as stopping a villain?

The still go to four or five hubs(there's nothing wrong with that type of design, but when you constantly do it then it becomes repetitive).

Warachia:
Incidentally, they made other games like Baldurs Gate 1+2 (and that sonic game that nobody remembers) that don't fit what you're trying to point out.

And those games are good(A bit overrated, but still good).I don't know about sonic though.

Warachia:
By your logic every single final fantasy game is the same because the have the same classes, a villain, and you explore an overworld.

I think you can easilly see that games whose story is "The chosen one saves the world from the big evil" are more similar to each other, than games where you have a villain and you explore a world. For instance: Jon Irenicus is a diffrent villain than, say Malak or the Reapers.

Warachia:
Why not compare Monkey Island and kings quest

I haven't played king's quest.

Warachia:
every FPS is a ripoff of DOOM.

But... ,but Doom is a ripoff of Wolfenstein. /sarcasm

So is he the one responsible for butchering Revan's character in the old republic?

Reading through some of these comments, you'd forget that hundreds of people work on these projects. I don't say that to minimize Drew (or Brent, or Kevin Martens, or any of the other known-to-the-community talents who have left) and his accomplishments, he certainly put a lot of himself into his work and helped shape their successes, but when hundreds of people work on projects, it's easy to continue on when a handful of them leave. If you're looking for the glue that holds BioWare together, as well as the source of BioWare's continued evolution, I'd be more inclined to look to guys like James Ohlen, as well as the other core staff like Ray & Greg, etc. They're making the games they want to make and the games that they enjoy playing. This really doesn't have much to do with EA or anything else.

Imbechile:
the same old "The chosen one saves the world from the big evil" bullshit that they always write in desperate attempt to make the game epic.

So, I take it you've played only one Bioware game then? Not Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2? Or haven't just read any epic fantasy in the first place.

SurfinTaxt:

Worr Monger:
I'm just glad that Mass Effect is finished. That's all I really care about. This doesn't exactly spell doom for Bioware, but possibly a change... which could be a good thing.

You really think Mass effect is finished? Ahaahahahaha Mass effect is finished like call of duty is finished

I'm not talking about all the future spin-offs within the same universe... that's inevitable of course... and I'm fine with that because Mass Effect has an awesome universe.

I'm talking about the main trilogy involving Shepard.... Call of Duty doesn't have a story.

It's more like Halo 4 (though I don't care much for Halo's universe)... The main games are done. Now come the spin-offs by different writers.. etc.

If they take a bad direction with Mass Effect after ME3.... I'll be ok with that, because the trilogy that matters would have been finished.. I can ignore anything else if need be.

Worr Monger:

SurfinTaxt:

Worr Monger:
I'm just glad that Mass Effect is finished. That's all I really care about. This doesn't exactly spell doom for Bioware, but possibly a change... which could be a good thing.

You really think Mass effect is finished? Ahaahahahaha Mass effect is finished like call of duty is finished

I'm not talking about all the future spin-offs within the same universe... that's inevitable of course... and I'm fine with that because Mass Effect has an awesome universe.

I'm talking about the main trilogy involving Shepard.... Call of Duty doesn't have a story.

It's more like Halo 4 (though I don't care much for Halo's universe)... The main games are done. Now come the spin-offs by different writers.. etc.

If they take a bad direction with Mass Effect after ME3.... I'll be ok with that, because the trilogy that matters would have been finished.. I can ignore anything else if need be.

thats fine but how can you ignore all the sign that ME3 is just going to be an over hyped cash grab?

Here are just some of the plethora of reasons Im skipping the "conclusion" if you want to call it that.

1) DLC. Now Im fine with good, well though out DLC like the way Rockstar does DLC. I however despise the way EA has gone about it, Day one DLC, DLC already on the disc you need to "unlock", and just take a look at this; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/23/mass-effect-figures-include-mass-effect-3-dlc.aspx

That is MF action figure DLC. And the DLC rewards are randomized at that . . . so real collection obsessed fans can buy multiple sets of the same action figure, or so Ive heard.

2)The auxiliary characters are pathetically badly designed. Chobot? Freddie prinze? The fuck outta here. Rasta Prothean? Theyre 0 for 3 right out of the gate, and I have no faith in EA (yes it is EA wearing Bioware's skin) to make the others any better. This would be great if I wanted to play Mass Effect the comedy special, but to me that not the appeal. Fuck freddie prinze jr. poser bitch.

3)forced emotional manipulation. The human kid getting blown up in the demo? what the hell was the point of that? Are we supposed to feel bad about some dumbass kid we see for 5 seconds, that runs away from us like a retard? Just ham fisted drama, and I dont see it getting less hamfisted

I could literally go on and on about every single thing that sets off alarm bells . . . Horde mode, create your own single player mode, the obvious laziness from what ive seen in the demo (shit textures for one, and the uncanny valley problems), male shephard running like he has a perpetually dirty ass, the lead writer leaving the company for MAC FUCKING WALTERS to take over is enough evidence alone to make me avoid this game.

I think when fans play this game, well, im hoping they look back at ME2 and realize that that game isnt all that.

SurfinTaxt:

1) DLC. Now Im fine with good, well though out DLC like the way Rockstar does DLC. I however despise the way EA has gone about it, Day one DLC, DLC already on the disc you need to "unlock", and just take a look at this; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/23/mass-effect-figures-include-mass-effect-3-dlc.aspx

That is MF action figure DLC. And the DLC rewards are randomized at that . . . so real collection obsessed fans can buy multiple sets of the same action figure, or so Ive heard.

It's stuff for the multiplayer. Even better it's stuff you could unlock from just playing the multiplayer. It's not on-disc DLC. Everyone gets access to all the stuff you get from the action figure stuff.

SurfinTaxt:

2)The auxiliary characters are pathetically badly designed. Chobot? Freddie prinze? The fuck outta here. Rasta Prothean? Theyre 0 for 3 right out of the gate, and I have no faith in EA (yes it is EA wearing Bioware's skin) to make the others any better. This would be great if I wanted to play Mass Effect the comedy special, but to me that not the appeal. Fuck freddie prinze jr. poser bitch.

considering you have absolutely no idea how any of those characters are implemented, I think you're jumping the gun here a bit. Right now you sound like the people who found out about legion being in ME2 before they played the game.

"WHAT?!?!? WHY WOULD SHEPARD WORK WITH THE GETH!? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!" Oh wait it's explained really well within the game.

SurfinTaxt:

3)forced emotional manipulation. The human kid getting blown up in the demo? what the hell was the point of that? Are we supposed to feel bad about some dumbass kid we see for 5 seconds, that runs away from us like a retard? Just ham fisted drama, and I dont see it getting less hamfisted

It's called context. It's there for a very specific reason; to give emotional weight to what's currently happening to Earth. It seems really fast now, but I mostly think that is due to the poor pacing of the first part of the demo. Bioware said they had to cut loads of stuff from the demo because of 2 gig download limit imposed by XBL.

SurfinTaxt:

I could literally go on and on about every single thing that sets off alarm bells . . . Horde mode, create your own single player mode, the obvious laziness from what ive seen in the demo (shit textures for one, and the uncanny valley problems), male shephard running like he has a perpetually dirty ass, the lead writer leaving the company for MAC FUCKING WALTERS to take over is enough evidence alone to make me avoid this game.

I think when fans play this game, well, im hoping they look back at ME2 and realize that that game isnt all that.

Dude, it's a demo. It's based a 3-4 month old build of the game (which just went gold like a week and a half ago). Things like textures and animations get refined right up until it goes gold.

Drew left about halfway through Mass Effect 2 to work on SW:TOR by the way, he turned it over to Mac Walters then.

Also, the multiplayer is probably the best horde mode I've ever played. It actually takes teamwork and skill to beat a game, which is not something you see with a lot of multiplayer modes lately. Constantly changing objectives and brutal difficulty make the game a real challenge.

There's also a really cool progression system with interesting character development choices.

Awww.I rather liked his work.

He wasn't Tolkein or Asimov or anything like that, but he did write entertaining novels and scripts. And damnit if Mass Effect isn't my favorite sci-fi universe, so kudos to you, Drew.

animehermit:

SurfinTaxt:

1) DLC. Now Im fine with good, well though out DLC like the way Rockstar does DLC. I however despise the way EA has gone about it, Day one DLC, DLC already on the disc you need to "unlock", and just take a look at this; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/23/mass-effect-figures-include-mass-effect-3-dlc.aspx

That is MF action figure DLC. And the DLC rewards are randomized at that . . . so real collection obsessed fans can buy multiple sets of the same action figure, or so Ive heard.

It's stuff for the multiplayer. Even better it's stuff you could unlock from just playing the multiplayer. It's not on-disc DLC. Everyone gets access to all the stuff you get from the action figure stuff.

SurfinTaxt:

2)The auxiliary characters are pathetically badly designed. Chobot? Freddie prinze? The fuck outta here. Rasta Prothean? Theyre 0 for 3 right out of the gate, and I have no faith in EA (yes it is EA wearing Bioware's skin) to make the others any better. This would be great if I wanted to play Mass Effect the comedy special, but to me that not the appeal. Fuck freddie prinze jr. poser bitch.

considering you have absolutely no idea how any of those characters are implemented, I think you're jumping the gun here a bit. Right now you sound like the people who found out about legion being in ME2 before they played the game.

"WHAT?!?!? WHY WOULD SHEPARD WORK WITH THE GETH!? THAT MAKES NO SENSE!" Oh wait it's explained really well within the game.

SurfinTaxt:

3)forced emotional manipulation. The human kid getting blown up in the demo? what the hell was the point of that? Are we supposed to feel bad about some dumbass kid we see for 5 seconds, that runs away from us like a retard? Just ham fisted drama, and I dont see it getting less hamfisted

It's called context. It's there for a very specific reason; to give emotional weight to what's currently happening to Earth. It seems really fast now, but I mostly think that is due to the poor pacing of the first part of the demo. Bioware said they had to cut loads of stuff from the demo because of 2 gig download limit imposed by XBL.

SurfinTaxt:

I could literally go on and on about every single thing that sets off alarm bells . . . Horde mode, create your own single player mode, the obvious laziness from what ive seen in the demo (shit textures for one, and the uncanny valley problems), male shephard running like he has a perpetually dirty ass, the lead writer leaving the company for MAC FUCKING WALTERS to take over is enough evidence alone to make me avoid this game.

I think when fans play this game, well, im hoping they look back at ME2 and realize that that game isnt all that.

Dude, it's a demo. It's based a 3-4 month old build of the game (which just went gold like a week and a half ago). Things like textures and animations get refined right up until it goes gold.

Drew left about halfway through Mass Effect 2 to work on SW:TOR by the way, he turned it over to Mac Walters then.

Also, the multiplayer is probably the best horde mode I've ever played. It actually takes teamwork and skill to beat a game, which is not something you see with a lot of multiplayer modes lately. Constantly changing objectives and brutal difficulty make the game a real challenge.

There's also a really cool progression system with interesting character development choices.

that kid thing btw? brilliant. if it is what i think it is, its brilliant. at first you think oh its just a kid, and he dies to show that earth is really getting fucked, but then i remember something they ask you in the character creator that got me thinking. plus how the kid comes n goes. if, IF bioware does this, itll show people they can still make good stuff. and btw, if that stuff didnt blwo up, you wouldnt take the invasion seriously. it serves to establish, emotionally, that the planet is literally being raped in the ass.

and lol emotional manipulation...do yu even know what you meant to say with that? pretty much anything you read see or play that causes an intentional emotion on you is manipulation.

I thought this guy had already resigned. As in, several months ago.

Also, yeah, Karpyshyn's prose is not exactly the greatest thing around. He should stick to games if you ask me.

SpiderJerusalem:
So, I take it you've played only one Bioware game then?

If by only one Bioware game you mean "every bioware game is the same due to the things I listed" then yeah. I've played only one Bioware game.

SpiderJerusalem:
Not Dragon Age or Mass Effect 2?

Dragon age 2 could have been a step in the right direction story-wise, but it was rushed, so the story is disjointed.

SpiderJerusalem:
Or haven't just read any epic fantasy in the first place.

I think we can agreen that if a lot of people do the same thing, that thing doesn't become good all of the suddenly. It might be influental, but it still remains shit.

Imbechile:

SpiderJerusalem:
So, I take it you've played only one Bioware game then?

If by only one Bioware game you mean "every bioware game is the same due to the things I listed" then yeah. I've played only one Bioware game.

So, that's a no then? Because as others have also pointed out, the whole "they're all the same!" argument doesn't hold water unless you're willing (which it seems you are) to grasp at straws and bend the truth quite liberally to bring forth the outcome that suits your express purposes.

darth gditch:
Awww.I rather liked his work.

He wasn't Tolkein or Asimov or anything like that, but he did write entertaining novels and scripts. And damnit if Mass Effect isn't my favorite sci-fi universe, so kudos to you, Drew.

I concur. I rather like his novels, I finished reading "Revan" recently and at least for those who played and loved Kotor & Kotor 2 it's a great story (also I can not for my life understand why they didn't let him write "ME Deception", now they will have to remake the book cause it had so many flaws).

You should note however that mr. Karpshyn said he may "focus more on his novels in the future" so I think we will get more books from him yet. Allthough since the doesn't work for Bioware anymore he probably won't write any novels taking place in their gameworlds, which is sad.

Bioware's future is mostly dependent on EA so loosing one writer, even the lead writer, probably won't make much difference. If EA keeps on with their retarded DRM systems, rushing games out on the market half made, releasing the other half of it in DLC packs togheter with another dozen minior DLC:s...well if they keep this up Bioware is going to loose many fans.

PS. Please tell me this is a fucking april fools joke or something; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/23/mass-effect-figures-include-mass-effect-3-dlc.aspx

Gennadios:
Not that I care because I'm not playing any more of their games after ME3.

Can I ask why? They might release something really good in the future!

For example...

gof22:
Perhaps it would be a good time for Bioware to hire Neil Gaiman. The next ME game will be called Mass Effect: Galactic Gods. Shepard is hired by someone named Mr. Friday who turns out to be a Turian god.

That I might actually buy!

A thought: If you disagree with Bioware/EA's business practices strongly enough to declare that you will never consider a game by them again, then don't support those business practices by buying ME3. ;)

SpiderJerusalem:
Because as others have also pointed out, the whole "they're all the same!" argument doesn't hold water unless you're willing (which it seems you are) to grasp at straws and bend the truth quite liberally to bring forth the outcome that suits your express purposes.

Care to clarify who these "other people" are? So far I've only saw you and another poster try to prove me wrong. The_root_of_all_evil presented a not very good diagram and people have pointed it out, but only two people tried to prove me wrong(someone who written his thoughts, not copied someone a diagram from someone).
Funny enough, I've also encountered a lot of people on this site who agree with me.

SpiderJerusalem:

Imbechile:

SpiderJerusalem:
So, I take it you've played only one Bioware game then?

If by only one Bioware game you mean "every bioware game is the same due to the things I listed" then yeah. I've played only one Bioware game.

So, that's a no then? Because as others have also pointed out, the whole "they're all the same!" argument doesn't hold water unless you're willing (which it seems you are) to grasp at straws and bend the truth quite liberally to bring forth the outcome that suits your express purposes.

I'll agree that the claim that all BioWare games are exactly the same is a bit of a stretch, though I do think it's worth acknowledging that they do have a formula. A forumula that works well, mind you, but it's not exactly innovative.

However! 'KotOR' and 'Mass Effect', Karpyshyn's two big successes, are fundementally the same story. A lot of the flavour is changed, but almost beat for beat, it's the same tale.

An Unexpected Battle:
- The Endar Spire gets ambushed in orbit around Taris in KotOR.
- Shepard and Company find themselves in the middle of the assault on Eden Prime in 'Mass Effect'.

An Ally Dies to Demonstrate the Stakes:
- Trask Ulgo is killed by Darth Bandon, after having taught Revan how to wear pants.
- Nihlus is murdered by Saren. No pants were involved.

A Mild Coma:
- Revan is knocked out and Carth drags him into the escape pod. While unconcious he experiances ominous visions.
- Shepard is knocked out after being caught in the energy of the prothean beacon, and is dragged back to the Normandy by Kaiden and Ashley. While unconcious, he experiances ominous visions.

Investigating and Gathering Allies:
- Revan runs around Taris assmebling a posse while trying to find Bastilla.
- Shepard runs around the Citadel assembling a posse while digging up dirt on Saren.

Status Bump:
- Revan is inducted into the Jedi order, despite some misgivings by the three members of the Jedi Council.
- Shepard becomes a Spectre, despite some misgivings by the three members of the Citadel Council.

Secrets from the Past:
- Reavan and crew cowboy around the galaxy, chasing Malak and looking for Star Maps, ancient technology left by a mysterious species long since dissappeared from the galaxy which give Revan visions. They help people along the way.
- Shepard and crew cowboy around the galaxy, chasing Saren and looking for ways to help Shepard interpret the vision he recieved from the prothean beacon, ancient technology left by a mysterious species long since dissappeared from the galaxy. They help people along the way.

Shocking Revelation:
- "You cannot hide from what you once were, Revan! Recognize that you were once the Dark Lord - and know that I have taken your place!"
- "Reaper? A label created by the Protheans to give voice to their destruction. In the end, what they choose to call us is irrelevant. We simply... are."

An Ally Lost:
- Saren's machinations result in the death of either Kaidan or Ashley.
- Malak's machinations result in the Bastilla falling to the Dark Side.

A World Forgotten:
- Through his visions, the Star Maps, and his connection to Bastilla, Revan is eventually able to locate Lehon, the ancient homeworld the the rakata.
- Through his visions imparted by the prothean beacon, and his connection to Liara, Shepard is eventually able to locate Virmire, the final resting place of the protheans.

Unlocking the Puzzle:
- On Lehon, Revan is able to gain access to ancient rakatan technology that will allow him access to the Star Forge.
- On Virmire, Shepard is able to gain access to ancient prothean technology that allows him to access the Conduit.

The Final Battle:
- Revan vs. Malak. Malak is powered by the energies of captured Jedi.
- Shepard vs. Saran. Saran is powered by the energies of Soverign.

Triumph:
- Triumph!
- Triumph!

That's more than just formulaic; Karpyshyn and BioWare managed to get paid twice for the same story.

The Crotch:
SNIP

Mostly, my point was that whoever writes rogues for bioware has a thing for redheads.

Also, I haven't played DA2 so I cant really comment, rather than its not relevant.

Aww man. Hoped it was gonna be Gaider.

SurfinTaxt:

thats fine but how can you ignore all the sign that ME3 is just going to be an over hyped cash grab?

Who said I was ignoring anything? Mass Effect obviously has a large fanbase, and many of people are looking forward to getting their hands on it... that's why you hear about it a lot. Of course EA is going to market-the-fuck out of something is a guaranteed hit. I'm not gonna troll forums saying "Don't buy it! They just want your money!"... I'm quite certain EA just wants my money... but it's what I get for my money that matters.

Just because I don't play along with everyone who is hell-bent on condemning Bioware or EA for their recent games doesn't make me some sheep that is only taken in by marketing schemes. I'm not buying ME3 because EA/Bioware, or any fans telling me how awesome it is. I'm getting it because I love the series, and largely enjoy Bioware's games in general.

SurfinTaxt:
Here are just some of the plethora of reasons Im skipping the "conclusion" if you want to call it that.

1) DLC. Now Im fine with good, well though out DLC like the way Rockstar does DLC. I however despise the way EA has gone about it, Day one DLC, DLC already on the disc you need to "unlock", and just take a look at this; http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2012/01/23/mass-effect-figures-include-mass-effect-3-dlc.aspx

That is MF action figure DLC. And the DLC rewards are randomized at that . . . so real collection obsessed fans can buy multiple sets of the same action figure, or so Ive heard.

While I agree.. I am no fan of Day 1 DLC... from a business standpoint, I can't fault EA for using something that has worked in bringing them extra dollars. I've only purchased the Collector's Edition.. I don't care about all that other DLC that is store-based or Action Figure-Based. It's usually just something like an extra skin or weapon that isn't needed to complete the game. After I get the game, I'll judge available DLC individually and figure out what I think is worth the money.. as with any game... it's quite simple.

SurfinTaxt:

2)The auxiliary characters are pathetically badly designed. Chobot? Freddie prinze? The fuck outta here. Rasta Prothean? Theyre 0 for 3 right out of the gate, and I have no faith in EA (yes it is EA wearing Bioware's skin) to make the others any better. This would be great if I wanted to play Mass Effect the comedy special, but to me that not the appeal. Fuck freddie prinze jr. poser bitch.

I keep hearing this "It's not Bioware anymore, it's EA" crap everywhere. So what? What does that really mean? Yes, "Bioware's" games haven't changed much since KOTOR... and yet "Bioware" is still a name that sells games (and yes, I know EA uses that to their advantage).. what matters is that there are a group of people (Call them EA, or call them Bioware) that is making games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, or TOR... if you still enjoy those games (you don't, I'm guessing)... then who "really" makes them doesn't matter.

It's sad that gaming discussions have devolved into something like discussing politics... as if EA is Big Brother or something. I've resented EA since Westwood Studios went down the tank.. but I'll be damned if I'm going to avoid the Mass Effect series because "Big Brother" might be behind it. Gaming is for fun... EA isn't going to draft me into Iraq.

Oops.. OT: Yeah, Chobot is hideous, I don't care about Freddie Prinze either... I'll be too busy taking my preferred characters (Garrus, Tali, Liara, etc) with me to care. They're just another Kaiden or Jacob. I'll get over it.

SurfinTaxt:

3)forced emotional manipulation. The human kid getting blown up in the demo? what the hell was the point of that? Are we supposed to feel bad about some dumbass kid we see for 5 seconds, that runs away from us like a retard? Just ham fisted drama, and I dont see it getting less hamfisted

I haven't played the demo, so I can't judge yet. But I like how you refer to it as "forced emotional manipulation" (Big Brother EA at it again). As if they're trying to control your emotions. How about... they're presenting you with a situation.. and maybe it will get a reaction from you? It didn't work for you obviously... but that's ok, not everyone is affected by stimuli the same way. Some people are moved by images or events on films/games/books/etc... and some aren't. I might also feel the moment falls flat, just like you.. it happens.. guess we'll see.

SurfinTaxt:

I could literally go on and on about every single thing that sets off alarm bells . . . Horde mode, create your own single player mode, the obvious laziness from what ive seen in the demo (shit textures for one, and the uncanny valley problems), male shephard running like he has a perpetually dirty ass, the lead writer leaving the company for MAC FUCKING WALTERS to take over is enough evidence alone to make me avoid this game.

As opposed to figuratively?.... OT: I donno, maybe I just don't knit pick as much. None of the textures that I've seen so far have bothered me... but I'm not much of a graphics-nazi. I'm not getting it for the multiplayer. I'll admit, the changing of writers does have me worried... as it's never a good sign to change writers in the middle of anything. But demos usually aren't the best way to judge a final product. So I'll wait and see it for myself when it's out. All I know is... I don't hate what I've seen, and I love ME1 & ME2 so... that's why ME3 is a sure buy.

SurfinTaxt:

I think when fans play this game, well, im hoping they look back at ME2 and realize that that game isnt all that.

OH you're one of those.... ok well I guess I just wasted all my time here. I think ME2 was fantastic...

tl;dr - What bothers you, doesn't bother me. This is gaming, not politics... the world won't end if you purchase ME3 or choose not to....EA will still make bank on this... and I'm hoping they earned it.

Worr Monger:

Who said I was ignoring anything? Mass Effect obviously has a large fanbase, and many of people are looking forward to getting their hands on it... that's why you hear about it a lot. Of course EA is going to market-the-fuck out of something is a guaranteed hit. I'm not gonna troll forums saying "Don't buy it! They just want your money!"... I'm quite certain EA just wants my money... but it's what I get for my money that matters.

Just because I don't play along with everyone who is hell-bent on condemning Bioware or EA for their recent games doesn't make me some sheep that is only taken in by marketing schemes. I'm not buying ME3 because EA/Bioware, or any fans telling me how awesome it is. I'm getting it because I love the series, and largely enjoy Bioware's games in general.

You know, Im pretty sure Bioware was a profitable company that liked money (maybe not quite as much as EA) years before ea ever entered the equasion. What has me on edge specifically Dragon Age 2 and well, yes, Mass Effect 2. I loved the first game for the sense of wonder, of discovering hidden colonies on lost planets, digging for ancient treasure, and just roaming around in general. I loved the story that provided motivation with every single conversation, chasing after the mysterious and enigmatic Saren, who we get tantalizingly close too on several occasions throughout the game. ME2 to me is basically pointless, the plot hasnt been thought out well at all. Its like shepherd saves the entire citadel from a friggin reaper, and then by the second and third game, everyones got fucking amnesia and doesnt believe anything about the reapers . . . WHAAAA?? Anyway Ill save it for later, the point is, companies that only care about the short term success of a game, e.g. the blockbuster games that make investors cream their pants, their goal isnt to make the best game possible, its to make people think that they have the best game possible (aka hype). To me DA2 proved this; EA thought people wanted an awesome button, so they forced them to make an awesome button. It made combat more "cooler looking" sure, but they totally ignored what fans really loved about the game. The obvious laziness in level desgin didnt help either, but what can you really expect from a 14 month dev cycle. In turns out theyre going to be putting in deatchmatch arena mode in DA 3 I shit you not http://kotaku.com/5863668/surprise-dragon-age-getting-multiplayer

Worr Monger:

While I agree.. I am no fan of Day 1 DLC... from a business standpoint, I can't fault EA for using something that has worked in bringing them extra dollars. I've only purchased the Collector's Edition.. I don't care about all that other DLC that is store-based or Action Figure-Based. It's usually just something like an extra skin or weapon that isn't needed to complete the game. After I get the game, I'll judge available DLC individually and figure out what I think is worth the money.. as with any game... it's quite simple.

This is the kind of apathetic attitude toward the business practices of EA that allows them to get away with more and More and MORE DLC. Soon we'll all be paying 60 dollars just for the hub world and 10 bucks for every level.

Worr Monger:

I keep hearing this "It's not Bioware anymore, it's EA" crap everywhere. So what? What does that really mean? Yes, "Bioware's" games haven't changed much since KOTOR... and yet "Bioware" is still a name that sells games (and yes, I know EA uses that to their advantage).. what matters is that there are a group of people (Call them EA, or call them Bioware) that is making games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age, or TOR... if you still enjoy those games (you don't, I'm guessing)... then who "really" makes them doesn't matter.

It's sad that gaming discussions have devolved into something like discussing politics... as if EA is Big Brother or something. I've resented EA since Westwood Studios went down the tank.. but I'll be damned if I'm going to avoid the Mass Effect series because "Big Brother" might be behind it. Gaming is for fun... EA isn't going to draft me into Iraq.

Oops.. OT: Yeah, Chobot is hideous, I don't care about Freddie Prinze either... I'll be too busy taking my preferred characters (Garrus, Tali, Liara, etc) with me to care. They're just another Kaiden or Jacob. I'll get over it.

Dude... you're knowledgeable enough to know about Westwood, you should be able to connect the dots yourself. Cant you see the parallels? Cant you see thats whats happening to bioware this very minute, has already happened to westwood? While the two situations are by no means identical, looking at ea's history should be enough to tell you how this "love story" is going to end.

SurfinTaxt:

I could literally go on and on about every single thing that sets off alarm bells . . . Horde mode, create your own single player mode, the obvious laziness from what ive seen in the demo (shit textures for one, and the uncanny valley problems), male shephard running like he has a perpetually dirty ass, the lead writer leaving the company for MAC FUCKING WALTERS to take over is enough evidence alone to make me avoid this game.

Worr Monger:

As opposed to figuratively?.... OT: I donno, maybe I just don't knit pick as much. None of the textures that I've seen so far have bothered me... but I'm not much of a graphics-nazi. I'm not getting it for the multiplayer. I'll admit, the changing of writers does have me worried... as it's never a good sign to change writers in the middle of anything. But demos usually aren't the best way to judge a final product. So I'll wait and see it for myself when it's out. All I know is... I don't hate what I've seen, and I love ME1 & ME2 so... that's why ME3 is a sure buy.

What I had meant to say was "literally go on and on all day", i forgot to add the all day. So yes, as opposed to figuratively going on all day. Let me ask you, did you prefer the writing in 1 or 2? Because if you said 2, then get ready for a story that goes much further in that direction then then how it was in the first game.

Worr Monger:

OH you're one of those.... ok well I guess I just wasted all my time here. I think ME2 was fantastic...

tl;dr - What bothers you, doesn't bother me. This is gaming, not politics... the world won't end if you purchase ME3 or choose not to....EA will still make bank on this... and I'm hoping they earned it.

Im one of those? Whatever the hell that means. I just want people to wake up and realize that ME1 deserved far better than ME2. Dragon Age Multiplayer. That is all

Imbechile:

Warachia:
The characters have more depth to them than just 5-6 personalities.

What depth? You mean Emo-boys Carth Onasi and Kaidan Alenko. Alistairs and Morringans "were fighting and arguing over stupid things like we're children" personality. To avoid confusion: There are some nicely written characters, but they still feel too similar to companions in other games. Also, the cringe inducing romance don't help. I will give you the characters, but what about the same old "The chosen one saves the world from the big evil" bullshit that they always write in desperate attempt to make the game epic.

When I say depth I mean that you can get to know the characters, their backstories, and even if their personalities seem similar (a point I'll give you) the characters themselves have different reasons for those personalities. To me, being similar is X caused Y, which the characters themselves don't have. I'll also give you that bit about saving the world, it is pretty annoying, which is one of the reasons I like DA2 (despite its problems) and ME2.

Imbechile:

Warachia:
and that last point has you doing COMPLETELY SEPERATE THINGS, even generalizing it becomes stupid and you see how it all comes apart. How is looking for a map the same thing as stopping a villain?

The still go to four or five hubs(there's nothing wrong with that type of design, but when you constantly do it then it becomes repetitive).

I agree there, but a better argument to make in the beginning would be that no matter the objective, you accomplish it the same way. I guess this is where I like Bioware games best, with the sidequests to fully flesh out the places you visit, as I feel they add a lot to the game and help the areas. Can't argue if that's not your thing though.

Imbechile:

Warachia:
Incidentally, they made other games like Baldurs Gate 1+2 (and that sonic game that nobody remembers) that don't fit what you're trying to point out.

And those games are good(A bit overrated, but still good).I don't know about sonic though.

I won't debate about the games being overrated (your opinion) but the sonic one is pretty good, I''d highly recommend it if your looking for a good turn based RPG on the DS. The weird thing about it is how much work that went into the characters and dialogue, it's like hiring an oscar winner to do a childrens film.

Imbechile:

Warachia:
By your logic every single final fantasy game is the same because the have the same classes, a villain, and you explore an overworld.

I think you can easilly see that games whose story is "The chosen one saves the world from the big evil" are more similar to each other, than games where you have a villain and you explore a world. For instance: Jon Irenicus is a diffrent villain than, say Malak or the Reapers.

Yes, I see how those are similar, but the locations and methods as well as environments and characters that help you are also different, and it seems wrong to throw those out for the sake of generalizing.

Imbechile:

Warachia:
Why not compare Monkey Island and kings quest

I haven't played king's quest.

Decent games if you don't mind incredibly unforgiving puzzles and controls.

Imbechile:

Warachia:
every FPS is a ripoff of DOOM.

But... ,but Doom is a ripoff of Wolfenstein. /sarcasm

Yes Wolfenstein came first, but everyone says Doom ripoff, so I went with it anyway. Besides, Wolfenstein is a ripoff of Maze War.

There are tropes and themes common to several Bioware games.
Apparently that means that the stories/games are the same.
Or that writers were lazy/inept/bad.

Allow me to sum up Bioware games:
1: You make a character
2: You go through a tutorial period involving some kind of battle
3: You gather your party before venturing forth
4: You venture forth
5: You gather your party whilst venturing forth
6: Some characters fill thematically similar roles
7: There is an adventure with high stakes
8: There is an antagonist character
9: There is a plot twist
10: The game ends with some sort of victory

Now add "OMG BALDUR'S GATE AND MASS EFFECT ARE THE SAME GAME" to the end of each of those points.

Ponder whether pointing out vague similarities between games indicates the quality of writing.

a> IT TOTALLY DOES - You're qualified to post hate topics on internet forums. Congratulations.
b> NO NOT REALLY - Maybe you are a person who can read TVTropes without complaining about how everything just copied everything else.

I quite enjoy his Darth Bane books, not thrilled with Revan. He's done good work with Bioware, but I'm ready for a new direction.

Calatar:
There are tropes and themes common to several Bioware games.
Apparently that means that the stories/games are the same.
Or that writers were lazy/inept/bad.

Allow me to sum up Bioware games:
1: You make a character
2: You go through a tutorial period involving some kind of battle
3: You gather your party before venturing forth
4: You venture forth
5: You gather your party whilst venturing forth
6: Some characters fill thematically similar roles
7: There is an adventure with high stakes
8: There is an antagonist character
9: There is a plot twist
10: The game ends with some sort of victory

Now add "OMG BALDUR'S GATE AND MASS EFFECT ARE THE SAME GAME" to the end of each of those points.

Ponder whether pointing out vague similarities between games indicates the quality of writing.

a> IT TOTALLY DOES - You're qualified to post hate topics on internet forums. Congratulations.
b> NO NOT REALLY - Maybe you are a person who can read TVTropes without complaining about how everything just copied everything else.

I love you. Great point, and I could apply that same list to a lot of games (while I was reading it I tested your list against Final Fantasy X and it worked).

4173:
I quite enjoy his Darth Bane books, not thrilled with Revan. He's done good work with Bioware, but I'm ready for a new direction.

With Revan it's not the full story (you'd have to play TOR to get that) and I don't just mean the 4 flashpoints he's involved in (2 for each faction). Drew wrote the Jedi Knight story so it has direct ties to both KOTOR and Revan. The Jedi Knight story is pretty much KOTOR 3.

SurfinTaxt:
http://kotaku.com/5863668/surprise-dragon-age-getting-multiplayer

You do realize it says rumor at the top of that right? As in, nothing has been set in stone for anything, nor has it been confirmed by Bioware.

Also, a lot of people said the same thing about Multiplayer in Mass Effect 3. Turns out they were wrong, as the multiplayer is actually really freaking good.

Also: Bioware isn't going anywhere. They have 4 game studios now. They have a massive MMO, and two really successful video game franchises under their belt. Westwood wasn't exactly doing great before EA shut them down. Bioware is going really strong right now and they aren't going anywhere.

animehermit:

4173:
I quite enjoy his Darth Bane books, not thrilled with Revan. He's done good work with Bioware, but I'm ready for a new direction.

With Revan it's not the full story (you'd have to play TOR to get that) and I don't just mean the 4 flashpoints he's involved in (2 for each faction). Drew wrote the Jedi Knight story so it has direct ties to both KOTOR and Revan. The Jedi Knight story is pretty much KOTOR 3.

My impression was that the Jedi Knight story was pretty much incurably stupid. If that was in fact his work, it makes me suspect that all the incoherence of ME2 belongs solidly at his feet.

Starke:
My impression was that the Jedi Knight story was pretty much incurably stupid. If that was in fact his work, it makes me suspect that all the incoherence of ME2 belongs solidly at his feet.

It's often quoted as one of the best ones in the entire game, right up next to Imperial Agent.

animehermit:

Starke:
My impression was that the Jedi Knight story was pretty much incurably stupid. If that was in fact his work, it makes me suspect that all the incoherence of ME2 belongs solidly at his feet.

It's often quoted as one of the best ones in the entire game, right up next to Imperial Agent.

Which goes to show how bad the writing in that game really is.

Starke:

animehermit:

Starke:
My impression was that the Jedi Knight story was pretty much incurably stupid. If that was in fact his work, it makes me suspect that all the incoherence of ME2 belongs solidly at his feet.

It's often quoted as one of the best ones in the entire game, right up next to Imperial Agent.

Which goes to show how bad the writing in that game really is.

I didn't think so, I just completed it the other day. Got anything else to say other than Bad writing? I just feel that that's a lazy excuse for people who don't really have any ground to stand on in a discussion.

animehermit:
I didn't think so, I just completed it the other day. Got anything else to say other than Bad writing? I just feel that that's a lazy excuse for people who don't really have any ground to stand on in a discussion.

No, that's a fact, not an "excuse". The Jedi Knight story is about as coherent and well thought out as a drunken frat boy making a pass at you. Come to think of it, about as original and respectful of source material as well. If you call that good writing, you really need to stop playing games and learn to read something that was written by a competent writer.

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