BioWare Supports Beleaguered Writer

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samsonguy920:

Agente L:
Let's face it. Saying in a interview that she hates the gameplay of the video games (hates the video games overral actually) wasn't the smartest move a person in the industry could've made, even not being an actual developer.

That doesn't excuse people from acting like complete immature bullies. There is never an excuse for that. I don't care if her writing was bad or good. What is important is her devotion to her job, and considering she is still there and her boss is standing up for her, I would say she deserves recognition regardless of her what she enjoys outside of her work.
As far as I am concerned, those people who acted out against her are no better than racists and bigots.

Search where I said that what she did gave permission to reddit mess with her.

Did you?

Good.

Now search where I said she was a bad writer, she was or wasn't devouted to her job, if she achieved or not the objectives in her work.

Good.

Now search where I said reddit claims and accusations are legit, or actually back up those claims and said I shared their view

Great.

Feeling a bit bad for all this finger pointing, aren't you?

All I did was post something that happened, and a opinion of mine. Hell, most people would agree with what I said, if this was taken off this context.

"Hey, I got a friend working in the video game industry!"

"Holy shit, that's cool! What she does?"

"She's the writer of a pretty big company. Unfortunaly, she's not really into videogames, only into writing."

Let me give you a few options of possibles answer, you and point to me the one you think it's more plausible:

Option 1:

"Really? Why she doesn't just write books/stories/novels then?"

Option 2:

"Oh, can't be happy with everything."

Option 3:

"Maybe she likes writing for videogames instead of novels".

I, sincerely, would pick option 1. I bet most of people would too.

Spot1990:

Agente L:
Let's face it. Saying in a interview that she hates the gameplay of the video games (hates the video games overral actually) wasn't the smartest move a person in the industry could've made, even not being an actual developer.

She never once said that. So you have just lost any credibility you may have had in this thread by the simple fact you don't know the first thing about the topic at hand.

"What is your least favorite thing about working in the industry?

Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly -- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition."

Unfortunaly, the original site which the interview was posted (and the interview itself) was taken down for some reason, so here's the time machine link of it:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061108014116/http://www.killerbetties.com/killer_women_jennifer_hepler?page=0%2C1

Page 2, 4th question from top to bottom.

Seems like I didn't lost any credibility, and you ended looking silly at the end of it.

draythefingerless:

OniaPL:
Can't one of you be the bigger man and let it go? This thread has sunk so low already.

I second this. Not cool seeing a professional journalist/columnist/whatever steep to their level. As for the poster...meh.

Do I get a cookie? Also, just meh? My heart is broken :'(

Tanakh:

Spot1990:
-snip-

Haha, put a bunch of theoretical scientits on a building for 50-60 years with tenure and students to make (part of) their work and let the soap opera drama flow!! Melrose place and dawsons creeck (or whatever the soap opera is this days) can suck the balls of the sience departments and institutes (for some reason they don't show this fully in Big Bang Theory).

Dammit, ha now you've made me realise I need to expand my reading because I don't know what the big soap is these days.

But the parts that she want to skip are the playing parts! If i understand her right she would much rather read a book with the narrative of lets say mass effect than play mass effect, which is up to her, but saying that in a videogame interview when you work for a videogame dev is a very naive move at best.

I think what she likes is forming the character yourself and engaging with the narrative personally. Controlling the outcome of the narrative. Because if it's not that then yeah, she should just read a book.

C'mon mate, you dont dislike reading the sports section every freaking day? Not even a little?

I'm definitely not constructing my points well, the sports section kills me. I don't know who any of those people are and I don't understand the sports they play. Have you ever tried to follow a cricket match? It doesn't make sense.

Also, mind posting or PMing a list of which newspapers you read aaaand (beggar with a shotgun) a small description of it? Pleaaaaaaase? Pretty please with sunday on top?

Yeah no bother.

Tanakh:

draythefingerless:

OniaPL:
Can't one of you be the bigger man and let it go? This thread has sunk so low already.

I second this. Not cool seeing a professional journalist/columnist/whatever steep to their level. As for the poster...meh.

Do I get a cookie? Also, just meh? My heart is broken :'(

thats what i meant at least.

Zen Toombs:
Good on them, I really appreciate Bioware doing that for Hepler.

I may be just be crazy, but I really don't see why she's getting so much flak over this.

i think its the whole letting people skip action sequences thing. it probably is hitting that gamer nerve that reacts to anything that may "dumb down" or "over simplify" games.
though i kinda like the idea, it certainly helped me get through LA noire (i got stuck on the rooftop gunman bit, went back and beat it later but at the time it just bugged the hell outta me)

Agente L:

samsonguy920:

Agente L:
Let's face it. Saying in a interview that she hates the gameplay of the video games (hates the video games overral actually) wasn't the smartest move a person in the industry could've made, even not being an actual developer.

That doesn't excuse people from acting like complete immature bullies. There is never an excuse for that. I don't care if her writing was bad or good. What is important is her devotion to her job, and considering she is still there and her boss is standing up for her, I would say she deserves recognition regardless of her what she enjoys outside of her work.
As far as I am concerned, those people who acted out against her are no better than racists and bigots.

Search where I said that what she did gave permission to reddit mess with her.

Did you?

Good.

Now search where I said she was a bad writer, she was or wasn't devouted to her job, if she achieved or not the objectives in her work.

Good.

Now search where I said reddit claims and accusations are legit, or actually back up those claims and said I shared their view

Great.

Feeling a bit bad for all this finger pointing, aren't you?

All I did was post something that happened, and a opinion of mine. Hell, most people would agree with what I said, if this was taken off this context.

"Hey, I got a friend working in the video game industry!"

"Holy shit, that's cool! What she does?"

"She's the writer of a pretty big company. Unfortunaly, she's not really into videogames, only into writing."

Let me give you a few options of possibles answer, you and point to me the one you think it's more plausible:

Option 1:

"Really? Why she doesn't just write books/stories/novels then?"

Option 2:

"Oh, can't be happy with everything."

Option 3:

"Maybe she likes writing for videogames instead of novels".

I, sincerely, would pick option 1. I bet most of people would too.

Spot1990:

Agente L:
Let's face it. Saying in a interview that she hates the gameplay of the video games (hates the video games overral actually) wasn't the smartest move a person in the industry could've made, even not being an actual developer.

She never once said that. So you have just lost any credibility you may have had in this thread by the simple fact you don't know the first thing about the topic at hand.

"What is your least favorite thing about working in the industry?

Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly -- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition."

Unfortunaly, the original site which the interview was posted (and the interview itself) was taken down for some reason, so here's the time machine link of it:

http://web.archive.org/web/20061108014116/http://www.killerbetties.com/killer_women_jennifer_hepler?page=0%2C1

Page 2, 4th question from top to bottom.

Seems like I didn't lost any credibility, and you ended looking silly at the end of it.

Yep, I posted that quote here earlier myself. Point to the part where she said she hates playing games and that she hates them in general. Because what I see is someone saying they like the interactive narrative part of videogames but they find it difficult to play games because they're so very bad at them.

Quazimofo:
[
i think its the whole letting people skip action sequences thing. it probably is hitting that gamer nerve that reacts to anything that may "dumb down" or "over simplify" games.
though i kinda like the idea, it certainly helped me get through LA noire (i got stuck on the rooftop gunman bit, went back and beat it later but at the time it just bugged the hell outta me)

I kindof hear that, but I'm not so certain that "skip target action sequence" is all that much different from easy mode for a game with a lot of story. Just my opinion.

Spot1990:
]Yep, I posted that quote here earlier myself. Point to the part where she said she hates playing games and that she hates them in general. Because what I see is someone saying they like the interactive narrative part of videogames but they find it difficult to play games because they're so very bad at them.

She said she likes the interactive part of the video game.

You know what's the interactive part of the video game, right? The gameplay. And alas, she say

I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory

I know she meant "I like the story, etc". It's not my fault she worded that wrong. And again, the part I put in parentheses  was a commentary of mine. I'm sorry, if someone dislike a hamburguer, but likes the tomato in it, I think it's safe to say she dislikes the hamburguer in general. (As strange that may sound)

Also, next time, word your reply correctly then. Was it so hard to say "She never said she hated video games in general"? Because quoting my entire post and saying "That's wrong, you idiot" is really, REALLY vague.

draythefingerless:
-snip-

Ohh, :D

Now i won't feel bad, thanks ;)

Well... She kinda got all the flack for Dragon Age 2.

What I do find interesting though was that she wrote the Dwarf origins and campaigns in Dragon Age: Origins (Which is regarded as one of the better written parts of the game).

Also: Who the hell chose the name "Bullying Canada". It sounds like it's a public fund set up that tries it's best to bully Canada

Spot1990:

Also, mind posting or PMing a list of which newspapers you read aaaand (beggar with a shotgun) a small description of it? Pleaaaaaaase? Pretty please with sunday on top?

Yeah no bother.

And the list of (just) titles? Or just the most amazing 2-3 newspapers and maybe a good blog? Really want to find some decent journalism outside my country, but having little to do with it, it's almost impossible to see that content without developing a handful of skills i currently don't have :'(

Gather:
What I do find interesting though was that she wrote the Dwarf origins and campaigns in Dragon Age: Origins (Which is regarded as one of the better written parts of the game).

Also: Who the hell chose the name "Bullying Canada". It sounds like it's a public fund set up that tries it's best to bully Canada

That's what makes me say she is a good or decent witer (would need to read more from her to have a definitive opinion). Liked the city, liked the lore, liked most of the campaign and the flavour; but, even though i liked Branka as a character, also felt she would do important things here and there totally out of character, and i really disliked the end of that whole stuff with the anvil. Being vage due the dislike of this forum to spoilers.

"Bullying Canada"? Isn't membership on that a prerequisite for being american?

Agente L:

Spot1990:
]Yep, I posted that quote here earlier myself. Point to the part where she said she hates playing games and that she hates them in general. Because what I see is someone saying they like the interactive narrative part of videogames but they find it difficult to play games because they're so very bad at them.

She said she likes the interactive part of the video game.

You know what's the interactive part of the video game, right? The gameplay. And alas, she say

I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory

I know she meant "I like the story, etc". It's not my fault she worded that wrong. And again, the part I put in parentheses  was a commentary of mine. I'm sorry, if someone dislike a hamburguer, but likes the tomato in it, I think it's safe to say she dislikes the hamburguer in general. (As strange that may sound)

Also, next time, word your reply correctly then. Was it so hard to say "She never said she hated video games in general"? Because quoting my entire post and saying "That's wrong, you idiot" is really, REALLY vague.

Anyway, No Right Answers did this debate, Gameplay vs Story, "I prefer the story elements" is a perfectly legitimate stance. If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens? Nope. Writing is just as important to videogames as the gameplay.

You said she said something and I said "She never once said that" it's not really that confusing...

Tanakh:

Spot1990:
Remember Paul Christoforo? Yeah that's what happens when your employers think you're the one in the wrong. If they felt vitriol was justified Bioware would have thrown her to the wolves by now.

Yeah, but the case is very different. Paul was an outsourced individual that picked a fight with penny arcade, this is a person in senior status inside the (arguably) most important section of Bioware wich did herself a disservice with an interview and trolling with the mindless hordes of the net.

In the first case by firing him you at most have to pay a small breach of contract (not even then if your layer is good), in the second you lose face to customers and create a paranoid ambient in a key part of your company. I do think what Bioware did was the best he could have at that moment for the sake of Bioware, i also think it was the right thing to do, but that's tangent.

Yeah you might be right there. There is a bit of a difference. I just think that if most companies are getting bad PR because of one of their employees they'd probably sooner turn on them than generate more bad PR by siding with them. I know it's hard to believe based on the actions of the likes of EA, Ubisoft and Activision but most companies want you to like them and know pissing off customers is a bad move. But you might be right, might cause them more headaches to deal with it.

Spot1990:
Anyway, No Right Answers did this debate, Gameplay vs Story, "I prefer the story elements" is a perfectly legitimate stance. If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens? Nope. Writing is just as important to videogames as the gameplay.

You said she said something and I said "She never once said that" it's not really that confusing...

I'm sorry, if for you "I prefer the story elements" equals to "The only thing I like is the story elements", you really need to take some interpretation classes.

And please, read what you just wrote.

If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens?

What is that even supposed to mean? That I need to like the entire game to enjoy it, or that developers need to like doing things they don't do for a game to be good?

You said she said something and I said "She never once said that" it's not really that confusing...

But she said she dislikes the gameplay of the video games. And that's what I said.

Then I added a commentary that she hates the video games in overral.

See the difference?

I would have probably made an ass of myself if I read her quote before this situation erupted.

I think if I read Hepler's comment without any hindsight I might've said "Then why are you working for a game company?" and maybe have been a little offended that other better writers that love gaming would never have the opportunity she did. It smacks as a little ungrateful for the job she landed.

But that does NOT justify the reaction she received to a long dead article in which time she might have changed her mind since then, and everyone that had a part in harrassing her should be ashamed. This is a very sad episode in gamer culture ethics.

Spot1990:
Writing is just as important to videogames as the gameplay.

That's where we disagree, and it's just a matter of taste. My favourite games right now are Skyrim over Deus Ex, Withcer, DA:2 (also skyrim is probably the PC AAA RPG with the weakest story last year), and DotA 2 where story is for carebear noobz.

Curiously enough the only video game where I wished I could skip the horrible gameplay for the story was made by Bioware, God i HATED playing that game but wanted to see what would happen with the escapee from Jon Irenicus. This days i wouldn't even bother to play it, back then i had more endurance to bad or boring gameplay (loved Dragon Quest for example).

Agente L:

Spot1990:
Anyway, No Right Answers did this debate, Gameplay vs Story, "I prefer the story elements" is a perfectly legitimate stance. If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens? Nope. Writing is just as important to videogames as the gameplay.

You said she said something and I said "She never once said that" it's not really that confusing...

I'm sorry, if for you "I prefer the story elements" equals to "The only thing I like is the story elements", you really need to take some interpretation classes.

And please, read what you just wrote.

If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens?

What is that even supposed to mean? That I need to like the entire game to enjoy it, or that developers need to like doing things they don't do for a game to be good?

You said she said something and I said "She never once said that" it's not really that confusing...

But she said she dislikes the gameplay of the video games. And that's what I said.

Then I added a commentary that she hates the video games in overral.

See the difference?

And I'm sorry if for you if

While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it.

Means I hate playing games. Considering she writes for Bioware, a company whose games focus quite a bit on character interaction, development and plot, I think it's fair to say that she's at least interested in a good chunk of the products they produce.

No, what I'm saying is games are made up of different elements. You don't have to care about them all to be good at the element that interests you. Hence, the guy in charge of AI might hate the storytelling aspect or every other gameplay element like inventory systems or maps but it doesn't mean a thing as long as he likes the combat elements.

Yes but you're commentary included the word "actually". So when you say she said something and then in brackets say a different thing and add actually you're implying that's what she actually said. Had you used "basically" instead of "actually" it would have been clear that that was your interpretation of what she said rather than what she "actually" said.

Spot1990:
If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens?

Of course i do. For example in Skyrim (yeah i am playing that a lot) the graphic designer in charge of Draugr dungeons cared more about making things look pretty and making easy to see enemies than about the lore and atmosphere, it was only trhough modding you could have creepy atmospheres there and that you actually needed to use nighteye or tourches (at some point nighteye AND tourches if you liked the game very dark like i do).

Of course it's not a sine qua non, but it is important.

As for the AI, of freaking course you care! Well, I do, for example another skyrim mod makes the companions act according to their personalities (ie coward or shy rogue won't take a shield and sword and charge towards the enemies). Edit: This was big for me, in my RPGs i am a carebear nerd, and i HATED when Aela, a hunter specialized in bows which other NPC says has never used anything bigger than a dagger (or something like that) suddenly went sword and shield to tank freaking bears...

Tanakh:

Spot1990:
If you're in a battle in DA:O do you really care if the guy in charge of AI doesn't like story, maps or inventory screens?

Of course i do. For example in Skyrim (yeah i am playing that a lot) the graphic designer in charge of Draugr dungeons cared more about making things look pretty and making easy to see enemies than about the lore and atmosphere, it was only trhough modding you could have creepy atmospheres there and that you actually needed to use nighteye or tourches (at some point nighteye AND tourches if you liked the game very dark like i do).

Of course it's not a sine qua non, but it is important.

As for the AI, of freaking course you care! Well, I do, for example another skyrim mod makes the companions act according to their personalities (ie coward or shy rogue won't take a shield and sword and charge towards the enemies).

I didn't say do you care if those elements are good I said do you care if the guy in charge of AI hates inventory systems and world maps, things that are irrelevant to his job. You care if the AI guy likes AI or not but not if he likes character creation screens.

Spot1990:

And I'm sorry if for you if

While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it.

Means I hate playing games. Considering she writes for Bioware, a company whose games focus quite a bit on character interaction, development and plot, I think it's fair to say that she's at least interested in a good chunk of the products they produce.

No, what I'm saying is games are made up of different elements. You don't have to care about them all to be good at the element that interests you. Hence, the guy in charge of AI might hate the storytelling aspect or every other gameplay element like inventory systems or maps but it doesn't mean a thing as long as he likes the combat elements.

Yes but you're commentary included the word "actually". So when you say she said something and then in brackets say a different thing and add actually you're implying that's what she actually said. Had you used "basically" instead of "actually" it would have been clear that that was your interpretation of what she said rather than what she "actually" said.

Sigh, this is getting repetitive.

Again, you misinterpreted. She said she has a hard time getting interested IN playing it.

See the difference between "Getting interested into playing it" and "Liking playing it"?

She didn't said she likes game as long as they have a good story. She said she hardly get INTERESTED in playing one if it doesn't have a good story.

And that can be summed into the "story" part of the game. Character interaction/development/plot isn't gameplay. It is what we call "story", atleast in videogames. Hepler herself said that is story, in the very own quote you used.

You keep picking the same two words. Two words I already explained their purpose and meaning. You keep hitting the same key, to no avail.

Go search in the video game industry who likes it. Most people who play on videogame industry LOVES videogames. Hell, even most CEO likes videogames because people found video games studios because they got a few friends together and decided to make video games. Only extremely huge company have CEOs that don't care for videogame.

Hepler herself said that saying such thing (I dislike etc etc) was a terrible thing to do.

And you forget one thing. The only think intrinsically bounded with video game is gameplay. There is no video game without gameplay. There are hundreds of games without story. Hell, there are even games without sound or graphics. But there's one thing that video games never lacks, and that's gameplay. A video game without gameplay isn't a video game. It may be a story, a music, a interactive program. But not a video game.

Is it that hard to acknowledge that you are wrong? If it is, you can simply not quote this with a answer, I don't need a declaration of how you were wrong.

Spot1990:
I didn't say do you care if those elements are good I said do you care if the guy in charge of AI hates inventory systems and world maps, things that are irrelevant to his job.

But they are not, graphic design, AI programming, story, game concept and a lot more go hand to hand to create a whole experience. Good games might fail in one of those and still manage to pull themselves together and work due being amazing in others, great games need to make all this right and blend them seamlessly.

I don't know what game you like, but let's take an universally acclamed title like Shadow of the Colossus, now, imagine that the graphic desinger thought that story was irrelevant, that he should make the game according to current tastes and thus he would make the protagonist look like this since it was the trendy thing to do and build the world to suit that desing. Would it still be a good game? Yeah. Would it lose part of it soul? For sure.

Quazimofo:

i think its the whole letting people skip action sequences thing. it probably is hitting that gamer nerve that reacts to anything that may "dumb down" or "over simplify" games.
though i kinda like the idea, it certainly helped me get through LA noire (i got stuck on the rooftop gunman bit, went back and beat it later but at the time it just bugged the hell outta me)

If anything their behavior suggests developers should be dumbing games down as low as they possibly can.

Spot1990:

Agente L:
snip'd

snip'd again

You should let this go. It's a discussion of language and wording but Agente L is clearly not that adept at English. This argument will never end.

Agente L:

Again, you misinterpreted. She said she has a hard time getting interested IN playing it.

Oh did I now? And it is entirely outside the realms of possibility that you may have misinterpreted it I suppose?

See the difference between "Getting interested into playing it" and "Liking playing it"?

She didn't said she likes game as long as they have a good story. She said she hardly get INTERESTED in playing one if it doesn't have a good story.

Which also doesn't mean she hates games. "I can't get interested in a game that doesn't have a good story" does not mean "I hate games". It just means that if it doesn't provide a good story she finds it hard to get interested. I really don't see how that's a bad thing. And again this is what she said:

While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it.

Nowhere does that say she hates gameplay (in fact it says "I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming"). Yes, she says it's her least favourite part of it, but that does not translate as "I hate videogames".

And that can be summed into the "story" part of the game. Character interaction/development/plot isn't gameplay. It is what we call "story", atleast in videogames.

Actually in videogames least of all can character interaction/development and plot be considered purely story. In films and books yes, but in games I control the character interaction. The dialog, the choices that effect the story later on. These are made by me playing the game. To me something happening because I chose to say something is just as much gameplay as something happening because I chose to shoot someone.

Hepler herself said that is story, in the very own quote you used.

Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly -- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition."

Really? Where does she say that, I don't see any reference to character development or interaction here, not even a vague allusion.

You keep picking the same two words. Two words I already explained their purpose and meaning. You keep hitting the same key, to no avail.

What two words are you talking about here? You're misuse of "actually" in the parenthesis?

Go search in the video game industry who likes it. Most people who play on videogame industry LOVES videogames. Hell, even most CEO likes videogames because people found video games studios because they got a few friends together and decided to make video games. Only extremely huge company have CEOs that don't care for videogame.

And? SO she doesn't LOVE videogames. She does LOVE writing and she's a writer, good enough for me.

And you forget one thing. The only think intrinsically bounded with video game is gameplay. There is no video game without gameplay. There are hundreds of games without story. Hell, there are even games without sound or graphics. But there's one thing that video games never lacks, and that's gameplay. A video game without gameplay isn't a video game. It may be a story, a music, a interactive program. But not a video game.

Yes but it still might not be a very good videogame. Putting a video camera into a sensory deprivation tank for two hours might still produce what can technically be called a film, but it won't be very good. Plus Heavy Rain and L.A. Noire would like to say hi. Games based mostly on those character interaction things you said weren't gameplay. Interrogation and questioning witnesses (character interaction) was one of the most important gameplay elements of L.A. Noire.

[quote]Is it that hard to acknowledge that you are wrong? If it is, you can simply not quote this with a answer, I don't need a declaration of how you were wrong.

Please, if you're going to act all high and mighty at least proof read your post so it's not full of typos.

Tanakh:

Spot1990:
I didn't say do you care if those elements are good I said do you care if the guy in charge of AI hates inventory systems and world maps, things that are irrelevant to his job.

But they are not, graphic design, AI programming, story, game concept and a lot more go hand to hand to create a whole experience. Good games might fail in one of those and still manage to pull themselves together and work due being amazing in others, great games need to make all this right and blend them seamlessly.

I don't know what game you like, but let's take an universally acclamed title like Shadow of the Colossus, now, imagine that the graphic desinger thought that story was irrelevant, that he should make the game according to current tastes and thus he would make the protagonist look like this since it was the trendy thing to do and build the world to suit that desing. Would it still be a good game? Yeah. Would it lose part of it soul? For sure.

Yes but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't you say that you liked the Orzimar section of DA:O. I think that section shows that maybe it won't happen all the time, but a deeper understanding of the other elements on the part of the writer doesn't mean they can't contribute something good to a game. By the way, did you get my PM about newspapers? Was it what you were looking for or do you wan more info on them? They all have websites if you're interested.

It's cute how many people keep saying she did anything to Mass Effect when she has had no part in the writing of Mass Effect whatsoever. The OP even states it.

Spot1990:
Yes but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't you say that you liked the Orzimar section of DA:O. I think that section shows that maybe it won't happen all the time, but a deeper understanding of the other elements on the part of the writer doesn't mean they can't contribute something good to a game. By the way, did you get my PM about newspapers? Was it what you were looking for or do you wan more info on them? They all have websites if you're interested.

Yeah, it's not needed and i did like Orzimar (again exept the paragon itself and what happens in the anvil room), but it helps a lot, like having the chef in charge of soup coordinate with the one in charge of the main dish, it's not required but by gooly one would be mad not to.

Also yeah, trying to find the Independent's politic section.

aftohsix:

Quazimofo:

i think its the whole letting people skip action sequences thing. it probably is hitting that gamer nerve that reacts to anything that may "dumb down" or "over simplify" games.
though i kinda like the idea, it certainly helped me get through LA noire (i got stuck on the rooftop gunman bit, went back and beat it later but at the time it just bugged the hell outta me)

If anything their behavior suggests developers should be dumbing games down as low as they possibly can.

thats the irony of it isn't it? so many act like children desiring to be treated as intelligent adults.

Brad Shepard:
I really couldn't care less, I get told to GTFO, im not going to read his post, simple as that.

Except he told you to GTFO towards the END of his post...

Andronicus:
See what I did there?

This user made some good points. I'm not quite sure why he received an infraction, unless the Escapist moderators did not read his post thoroughly.

CrazyBlaze:
Nope that is the whole story. Its is basically the Internet yelling "STOP NOT LIKING WHAT WE LIKE (insert appropriate derogatory insult). YOU ARE A HORRIBLE PERSON SO STOP EXISTING."

Thats it. Some gamers needed a new target to hate on so they attacked her. This is because us gamers contain the biggest, self entitled whiners on the Internet. I don't know any other community that feels as self entitled as gamers, and it makes me sad to see this. It slowly kills my hope in humanity. To be honest there is no reason to hate her just because she doesn't like video games. I don't hate people because they don't like tomatoes and I do.

Yeah. It's peculiar. Always figured gamers to be (comparably) soft-spoken, cautious to enter into confrontation, and sometimes almost docile in their lack of agressive social behaviour (traits which are often far more positive than the opposite, so I place no negative intrinsic values in the definition). It is a stereotype, oh yes, but one I've found to hold true for many encounters with real-life gaming afficionados. Online, however... if someone had told me 15 years back that gaming forums were to eventually be commonly known as some of the most vitriolic places on the net, I'd have smirked at the notion.

Perhaps people like us should just stay out of gaming forums altogether ;)

Spot1990:

Agente L:

Again, you misinterpreted. She said she has a hard time getting interested IN playing it.

Oh did I now? And it is entirely outside the realms of possibility that you may have misinterpreted it I suppose?

See the difference between "Getting interested into playing it" and "Liking playing it"?

She didn't said she likes game as long as they have a good story. She said she hardly get INTERESTED in playing one if it doesn't have a good story.

Which also doesn't mean she hates games. "I can't get interested in a game that doesn't have a good story" does not mean "I hate games". It just means that if it doesn't provide a good story she finds it hard to get interested. I really don't see how that's a bad thing. And again this is what she said:

While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it.

Nowhere does that say she hates gameplay (in fact it says "I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming"). Yes, she says it's her least favourite part of it, but that does not translate as "I hate videogames".

And that can be summed into the "story" part of the game. Character interaction/development/plot isn't gameplay. It is what we call "story", atleast in videogames.

Actually in videogames least of all can character interaction/development and plot be considered purely story. In films and books yes, but in games I control the character interaction. The dialog, the choices that effect the story later on. These are made by me playing the game. To me something happening because I chose to say something is just as much gameplay as something happening because I chose to shoot someone.

Hepler herself said that is story, in the very own quote you used.

Playing the games. This is probably a terrible thing to admit, but it has definitely been the single most difficult thing for me. I came into the job out of a love of writing, not a love of playing games. While I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming, if a game doesn't have a good story, it's very hard for me to get interested in playing it. Similarly, I'm really terrible at so many things which most games use incessantly -- I have awful hand-eye coordination, I don't like tactics, I don't like fighting, I don't like keeping track of inventory, and I can't read a game map to save my life. This makes it very difficult for me to play to the myriad games I really should be keeping up on as our competition."

Really? Where does she say that, I don't see any reference to character development or interaction here, not even a vague allusion.

You keep picking the same two words. Two words I already explained their purpose and meaning. You keep hitting the same key, to no avail.

What two words are you talking about here? You're misuse of "actually" in the parenthesis?

Go search in the video game industry who likes it. Most people who play on videogame industry LOVES videogames. Hell, even most CEO likes videogames because people found video games studios because they got a few friends together and decided to make video games. Only extremely huge company have CEOs that don't care for videogame.

And? SO she doesn't LOVE videogames. She does LOVE writing and she's a writer, good enough for me.

And you forget one thing. The only think intrinsically bounded with video game is gameplay. There is no video game without gameplay. There are hundreds of games without story. Hell, there are even games without sound or graphics. But there's one thing that video games never lacks, and that's gameplay. A video game without gameplay isn't a video game. It may be a story, a music, a interactive program. But not a video game.

Yes but it still might not be a very good videogame. Putting a video camera into a sensory deprivation tank for two hours might still produce what can technically be called a film, but it won't be very good. Plus Heavy Rain and L.A. Noire would like to say hi. Games based mostly on those character interaction things you said weren't gameplay. Interrogation and questioning witnesses (character interaction) was one of the most important gameplay elements of L.A. Noire.

[quote]Is it that hard to acknowledge that you are wrong? If it is, you can simply not quote this with a answer, I don't need a declaration of how you were wrong.

Please, if you're going to act all high and mighty at least proof read your post so it's not full of typos.

actually Hard Rain and LA Noire have gameplay. Hard Rain has a choice mechanics system, as well as character movement, world interaction, and quick time events. Wich btw, are very bad fucking game mechanics, and that is why a lot of people hate that game(not to mention the idiotic story). LA noire is muuuch more obvious. you can choose to solve crimes and look for clues using the game mechanic, explore the world using the movement, participate in shooting and chase challenges. really, if you say story is more important in a game than gameplay, youre being an idiot. if you say you prefer playing games for the story than to actually play them, thats fine, but dont go messing priorities. you wouldnt have mass effect or any RPG, OR ANY GAME, without gameplay, good or bad. what is essential comes before what is important.

Gameplay is player interaction and choice with the virtual software with the express purpose of entertainment.

maddawg IAJI:
I'm not gonna question Helper's ability to write in this thread, I will however question not only her's, but Aaryn Flynn's response to it. Flynn, in defense of her told several people to fuck off and called them 'fucking morons' (He didn't even have the hindsight to delete the tweets.) and Helper believes that the hate stems from jealousy and hate toward her career and vagina for some reason :/ I really wish I was making that up too. I don't care what the fuck anyone does to you. You're representing a business and if you're gonna throw a hissy fit like that as soon as someone insults you, you should be fired ASAP, especially if you're gonna start PR nightmares like Flynn did.

Not only that, but if you're in the entertainment business, regardless of position, isn't one of the key rules to 'think before speaking?' I don't know why she was surprised at the outrage. Gamers getting mad because you believe that skipping the part of the medium that defines it would be best? Who would have guessed! If you don't like the gameplay, you're working for the wrong industry.

Some of those insults included people asking her if she killed herself yet.

Im not surprised Bioware supported her. Most reasonable people would do the exact same thing in the face of such mindless childish abuse.

Tanakh:

Spot1990:
Yes but (correct me if I'm wrong) didn't you say that you liked the Orzimar section of DA:O. I think that section shows that maybe it won't happen all the time, but a deeper understanding of the other elements on the part of the writer doesn't mean they can't contribute something good to a game. By the way, did you get my PM about newspapers? Was it what you were looking for or do you wan more info on them? They all have websites if you're interested.

Yeah, it's not needed and i did like Orzimar (again exept the paragon itself and what happens in the anvil room), but it helps a lot, like having the chef in charge of soup coordinate with the one in charge of the main dish, it's not required but by gooly one would be mad not to.

Also yeah, trying to find the Independent's politic section.

We use a lot of analogies don't we? Yeah, I think as long as she's working as part of a good team she'll do ok. Maybe it would be easier if she had more knowledge of gameplay but I think as long as she's kept in check it'll be ok. Still you're right, ideally she'd have a better grasp of how the two fit together herself.

Oh crap, forgot to mention The Pheonix, that's where I go for politics but the site is subscription based. The Independent just sort of integrates politics into "News". Hotpress has some pretty good political coverage though. Politico.ie has Vincent Browne as a contributor and is quite good. If I think of any others I'll let you know.

draythefingerless:

Spot1990:

Agente L:

Oh did I now? And it is entirely outside the realms of possibility that you may have misinterpreted it I suppose?

Which also doesn't mean she hates games. "I can't get interested in a game that doesn't have a good story" does not mean "I hate games". It just means that if it doesn't provide a good story she finds it hard to get interested. I really don't see how that's a bad thing. And again this is what she said:

Nowhere does that say she hates gameplay (in fact it says "I enjoy the interactive aspects of gaming"). Yes, she says it's her least favourite part of it, but that does not translate as "I hate videogames".

Actually in videogames least of all can character interaction/development and plot be considered purely story. In films and books yes, but in games I control the character interaction. The dialog, the choices that effect the story later on. These are made by me playing the game. To me something happening because I chose to say something is just as much gameplay as something happening because I chose to shoot someone.

Really? Where does she say that, I don't see any reference to character development or interaction here, not even a vague allusion.

What two words are you talking about here? You're misuse of "actually" in the parenthesis?

And? SO she doesn't LOVE videogames. She does LOVE writing and she's a writer, good enough for me.

Yes but it still might not be a very good videogame. Putting a video camera into a sensory deprivation tank for two hours might still produce what can technically be called a film, but it won't be very good. Plus Heavy Rain and L.A. Noire would like to say hi. Games based mostly on those character interaction things you said weren't gameplay. Interrogation and questioning witnesses (character interaction) was one of the most important gameplay elements of L.A. Noire.

[quote]Is it that hard to acknowledge that you are wrong? If it is, you can simply not quote this with a answer, I don't need a declaration of how you were wrong.

Please, if you're going to act all high and mighty at least proof read your post so it's not full of typos.

actually Hard Rain and LA Noire have gameplay. Hard Rain has a choice mechanics system, as well as character movement, world interaction, and quick time events. Wich btw, are very bad fucking game mechanics, and that is why a lot of people hate that game(not to mention the idiotic story). LA noire is muuuch more obvious. you can choose to solve crimes and look for clues using the game mechanic, explore the world using the movement, participate in shooting and chase challenges. really, if you say story is more important in a game than gameplay, youre being an idiot. if you say you prefer playing games for the story than to actually play them, thats fine, but dont go messing priorities. you wouldnt have mass effect or any RPG, OR ANY GAME, without gameplay, good or bad. what is essential comes before what is important.

Gameplay is player interaction and choice with the virtual software with the express purpose of entertainment.

I never said it was all they had. I just said character interaction was a huge and important part of the gameplay because you said character interaction isn't, in fact, gameplay. I also never said that story was more important than gameplay. Or am I just misinterpreting what I'm saying?

Spot1990:

draythefingerless:

Spot1990:

Please, if you're going to act all high and mighty at least proof read your post so it's not full of typos.

actually Hard Rain and LA Noire have gameplay. Hard Rain has a choice mechanics system, as well as character movement, world interaction, and quick time events. Wich btw, are very bad fucking game mechanics, and that is why a lot of people hate that game(not to mention the idiotic story). LA noire is muuuch more obvious. you can choose to solve crimes and look for clues using the game mechanic, explore the world using the movement, participate in shooting and chase challenges. really, if you say story is more important in a game than gameplay, youre being an idiot. if you say you prefer playing games for the story than to actually play them, thats fine, but dont go messing priorities. you wouldnt have mass effect or any RPG, OR ANY GAME, without gameplay, good or bad. what is essential comes before what is important.

Gameplay is player interaction and choice with the virtual software with the express purpose of entertainment.

I never said it was all they had. I just said character interaction was a huge and important part of the gameplay because you said character interaction isn't, in fact, gameplay. I also never said that story was more important than gameplay. Or am I just misinterpreting what I'm saying?

player interaction with characters is gameplay. character interaction independent of the player is just a story creation element. you can even NOT have characters in a game.

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