BioWare Defends Mass Effect 3 Launch-Day DLC

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BaronIveagh:

SajuukKhar:
@BaronIveagh
Functioning as DRM =/= being DRM. I can make something functions as a car would but that doesn't make it a car.

Actually, under the law, there is no difference. Either in the case of the car nor in the case of DRM. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a chicken.

I'm, sure both Valve and EA could come up with some legal reason as to why their respective services are not REALLY DRM, they just do similar functions to DRM.

WOO 39 pages now, its posts like this that make me want to delete my account. March 6th can't come soon enough...

BaronIveagh:

animehermit:

He even tried to refute it, but only addressed it's cursory elements, not how the content gets made.

Yes, because the fact it bares no actual resemblance to how EAs studios work should clearly be dismissed utterly. Granted, they do have three or so stages of development, but that seems to be where resemblance leaves off. (at least if statements from inside EA are to be believed)

Personally, I think he's right for the wrong reasons and have cancelled my CE preorder. This is as good a time as any to start standing up to game companies. I mean, seriously, to acquire 100% of the currently announced DLC is over $260.

Ladies and gents, TB is most likely talking out his ass, but I see this as an excellent opportunity. For a long time now we've been taken for granted by game companies. They assume that you, the consumer, are little better then a crack whore, who will happily blow hobos if they give you whatever game it is that is your personal poison.

They shove horribly one sided EULAs down our throats, they force DRM upon us, because we, the consumers, cannot be trusted. They lie to us and cheat us.

Now, I know many of you are saying 'Well, why should I give a shit? I got what I want, the rest of you can burn!'

Because it doesn't end there. If we keep giving, they keep pushing. Will you give a damn when you have to give a blood sample to use your games? When you have to buy the end of the game as DLC so you can finish it? When the game companies can legally put a camera in every room of your home?

Where do you draw the line?

Most of that DLC is either skins for your squadmates or some stuff in the multiplayer. None of it is essential to enjoy the full game(including the prothean).

I would like to see you prove that accusation that this is, not, in fact how Bioware operates. This is how they develop content for TOR as well, which they've been fairly open about. Which is why content that they've been working on for over a year is just now making it's way into TOR just 3 months after release.

SweetLiquidSnake:
WOO 39 pages now, its posts like this that make me want to delete my account. March 6th can't come soon enough...

when march 6th comes people will be complaining that

Mass Effect 3 = Gears of war
Mass Effect 3 has less RPG features then ME2
That Mass Effect 3's plot makes no sense
That ME3 HAD no plot
That Bioware FORCES you into relationships
that no plot choices carried over
Etc. etc.

Which are all various levels of BS.

SajuukKhar:

BaronIveagh:

SajuukKhar:
@BaronIveagh
Functioning as DRM =/= being DRM. I can make something functions as a car would but that doesn't make it a car.

Actually, under the law, there is no difference. Either in the case of the car nor in the case of DRM. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a chicken.

I'm, sure both Valve and EA could come up with some legal reason as to why their respective services are not REALLY DRM, they just do similar functions to DRM.

I would say Origin is less DRM-like than even Steam is. I don't need to launch Origin to play most of the games I own through the service, I can more easily set it to offline mode, and I can access my account on multiple computers much more easily.

SweetLiquidSnake:
WOO 39 pages now, its posts like this that make me want to delete my account. March 6th can't come soon enough...

Wait.. you hate that.. on a game based website.. people are being passionate about an issue they feel strongly passionate about, on a game based website?

"man due, I hate that all these people that come to this bar just to drink beer and hang out with friends, it just make me want to stop coming here."

animehermit:

SajuukKhar:

BaronIveagh:

Actually, under the law, there is no difference. Either in the case of the car nor in the case of DRM. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck... it's probably not a chicken.

I'm, sure both Valve and EA could come up with some legal reason as to why their respective services are not REALLY DRM, they just do similar functions to DRM.

I would say Origin is less DRM-like than even Steam is. I don't need to launch Origin to play most of the games I own through the service, I can more easily set it to offline mode, and I can access my account on multiple computers much more easily.

I find Origin's account access to be flimsy personally.

I love Steam guard and it sending you a email to make SURE it is you loging in on a new computer. If I am going to have hundreds of dollars worth of games tied to one thing I want to make sure my account is safe.

also you can turn it off.

Well congratulations people, this thread is now one of the hottest threads of the year, we let ourselves get this worked up over a single 10$ DLC.

erttheking:
Well congratulations people, this thread is now one of the hottest threads of the year, we let ourselves get this worked up over a single 10$ DLC.

It if wasn't trivial, it wouldn't be THIS popular.

God i love the internet.

erttheking:
Well congratulations people, this thread is now one of the hottest threads of the year, we let ourselves get this worked up over a single 10$ DLC.

Should we wait to get outraged when Day-One DLC is $20... $30... $40?

Oh great king, please tell us, when will it be acceptable to get "worked up over"?

I mean, I have plenty of expendable income to buy games, but I'm not sure that I'm absolutely ready to hand over a couple hundred dollars just because the publisher says that's how much a single game is worth.

Not that we are there yet, but if we "shouldn't" voice our opinion at $10, when will we be able too?

You should only get mad at DLC if it is content NEEDED to get a complete game. All evidence points to this not being case.

Getting mad over Fallout 3:Broken Steel is ok because it was them selling you the ending to the game.

SajuukKhar:

I find Origin's account access to be flimsy personally.

I love Steam guard and it sending you a email to make SURE it is you loging in on a new computer. If I am going to have hundreds of dollars worth of games tied to one thing I want to make sure my account is safe.

also you can turn it off.

Ease of access for security. I actually like the way it's setup on Origin, I gave my account info to a buddy so he could play Dragon Age on it, he could access the account at the same time I was and he got to download the game and play it without a hitch.

I would still argue that Steam really isn't all that much better than Origin. I find that Steam breaks a lot, where you won't be able to download things from it, or be able to play certain games if their servers are too busy. Both of them have horrible support though.

Murmillos:

Should we wait to get outraged when Day-One DLC is $20... $30... $40?

Oh great king, please tell us, when will it be acceptable to get "worked up over"?

I mean, I have plenty of expendable income to buy games, but I'm not sure that I'm absolutely ready to hand over a couple hundred dollars just because the publisher says that's how much a single game is worth.

Not that we are there yet, but if we "shouldn't" voice our opinion at $10, when will we be able too?

How many times are people going to use the slippery slope argument in this thread?

People buy DLC because it's cheap and it adds to the enjoyment of the game. If DLC were expensive no one would buy it.

SajuukKhar:
You should only get mad at DLC if it is content NEEDED to get a complete game. All evidence points to this not being case.

Getting mad over Fallout 3:Broken Steel is ok because it was them selling you the ending to the game.

Again.. how do you defend "the ending of the game". Granted the original was bland/pointless and somewhat - "huh, thats stupid", and that Broken Steel had a "better that's a real ending". But both were "endings". Arguably, the first ending is still the real ending as the game was 1) finding your father and 2) restarting the project. Broken Steel just added 3) stopping the Enclave; which was more of a side project - not the main quest.

Just because one ending was better, doesn't mean that the other lesser ending wasn't the real ending.

Your ending of game requirement may be just as important to somebody elses included characters and lore. Are you "infallibly" right and they "entitlemented" wrong on the issue.

You are aware Broken Steele was made because NO ONE like the ending and Bethesda said they would make a better one because even they realized the original ending sucked?

If its something so bad that even they have to admit they screwed up, it should be free.

animehermit:

How many times are people going to use the slippery slope argument in this thread?

People buy DLC because it's cheap and it adds to the enjoyment of the game. If DLC were expensive no one would buy it.

That we understand, but everybody has a different comfortable price point. Some people are comfortable up to $5, unless its a really big expansion, others are comfortable up to $10..$15.

Nobody can say getting worked up over $10 is trivial and childish. Is $15 trivial? Is $20 trivial.

Everybody has a different breaking point. Just because many people find $10 uncomfortable and you may not doesn't make those people wrong.

Murmillos:

erttheking:
Well congratulations people, this thread is now one of the hottest threads of the year, we let ourselves get this worked up over a single 10$ DLC.

Should we wait to get outraged when Day-One DLC is $20... $30... $40?

Oh great king, please tell us, when will it be acceptable to get "worked up over"?

I mean, I have plenty of expendable income to buy games, but I'm not sure that I'm absolutely ready to hand over a couple hundred dollars just because the publisher says that's how much a single game is worth.

Not that we are there yet, but if we "shouldn't" voice our opinion at $10, when will we be able too?

How about when it's actually needed to get the full story and experience, how is that? Assassin's creed two actually crossed this line, taking out sequence 13 and 14 (I think those were the ones), ME3 has not.

SajuukKhar:
You are aware Broken Steele was made because NO ONE like the ending and Bethesda said they would make a better one because even they realized the original ending sucked?

If its something so bad that even they have to admit they screwed up, it should be free.

I am fully aware of it. But that doesn't change the argument. A replacement ending DLC just because the first one sucked doesn't get it any more right to be "free" over a cut/held-back squad mate.

If Broken Steel should have been free, then so should From Ashes* to all new copies of the game.

*fixed

1. It's From Ashes, From Dust is a civilization/world building game

2. Lacking the from Ash's DLC isn't gonna cause a detriment to the games story.

erttheking:

How about when it's actually needed to get the full story and experience, how is that? Assassin's creed two actually crossed this line, taking out sequence 13 and 14 (I think those were the ones), ME3 has not.

I agree with you there. And just as you every easily pointed out, we have had content cut from games in the past to be sold from DLC later to get a more "full story and experience". And until From Ashes comes out to prove us right or wrong, many people are afraid that THIS DLC will be taking out important story elements and experience.

We've seen this very event happen in the past from lesser developers; so why is it a big deal people are worried that they are about to see it happen again from a company they have trusted in the past, but has started to shown its more willing to be used as EA money making slut, then holding up to their own principles of excellence toward gamers?

SajuukKhar:
1. It's From Ashes, From Dust is a civilization/world building game

2. Lacking the from Ash's DLC isn't gonna cause a detriment to the games story.

1) Doh' fixed.

2) Are you 100% absolutely sure that nothing of meaningful content related to the story and experience of the game is in the DLC from Ashes?

Murmillos:

animehermit:

How many times are people going to use the slippery slope argument in this thread?

People buy DLC because it's cheap and it adds to the enjoyment of the game. If DLC were expensive no one would buy it.

That we understand, but everybody has a different comfortable price point. Some people are comfortable up to $5, unless its a really big expansion, others are comfortable up to $10..$15.

Nobody can say getting worked up over $10 is trivial and childish. Is $15 trivial? Is $20 trivial.

Everybody has a different breaking point. Just because many people find $10 uncomfortable and you may not doesn't make those people wrong.

That wasn't the point you were making.

The point you were making was; what's to stop them from charging even more for DLC in the future?

That's the one I'm making the argument against. If you don't think the DLC is worth the $10, then don't buy it, no one is forcing you to. But don't sit there and tell me that this is only a slippery slope and that soon, if we don't do anything, that DLC will start costing more and more.

Murmillos:

erttheking:

How about when it's actually needed to get the full story and experience, how is that? Assassin's creed two actually crossed this line, taking out sequence 13 and 14 (I think those were the ones), ME3 has not.

I agree with you there. And just as you every easily pointed out, we have had content cut from games in the past to be sold from DLC later to get a more "full story and experience". And until From Ashes comes out to prove us right or wrong, many people are afraid that THIS DLC will be taking out important story elements and experience.

We've seen this very event happen in the past from lesser developers; so why is it a big deal people are worried that they are about to see it happen again from a company they have trusted in the past, but has started to shown its more willing to be used as EA money making slut, then holding up to their own principles of excellence toward gamers?

Well Bioware said that it's optional and it's been confirmed that he'll be in the game regardless, but I suppose that you're right and that we'll have to wait and see.

Murmillos:

SajuukKhar:
1. It's From Ashes, From Dust is a civilization/world building game

2. Lacking the from Ash's DLC isn't gonna cause a detriment to the games story.

1) Doh' fixed.

2) Are you 100% absolutely sure that nothing of meaningful content related to the story and experience of the game is in the DLC from Ashes?

According to a interview done with Jessica Merizan, Community Manager for Bioware, on reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/q2sl2/i_am_jessica_merizan_community_manager_for/?sort=hot

"[-]jessicamerizan[S] 295 points 3 days ago

I think there's a lot of misinformation out there and I wish the guy who made the initial video about it would have had an open mind before jumping to conclusions based on a leak we weren't ready to address. Since I'm a BioWare employee, I know people won't automatically trust me, but I hope people will consider that it wasn't cut content from the larger game. I was in Edmonton when we were finishing the game in November/December and I was in Edmonton again last month when they were working on the Day 1 DLC. It definitely was only possible to do because the main game was in certification (which means we had to wait for people to test it and make sure everything was good etc before we could get the greenlight to sell it). I also played the game WITHOUT the DLC in my first playthrough and honestly, it's an awesome addition but I was more than happy with what I was given in the game. It's bigger and more expansive than ever. Of course, I understand the concern but I hope we can all have an intelligent conversation about it and cover what the facts are in this situation.

Hope that helps a little bit. This is an awkward format to answer this question, but I know I could explain it if you were sitting next to me on a couch with some coffee/tea ;)"
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"[-]jessicamerizan[S] 44 points 3 days ago

Thank you for the thoughtful response. I wish I didn't have to worry about spoilers because I'd love to explain what clever things BioWare did to make the DLC a great addition without taking away from the main game.

Believe it or not, I am more frustrated than you are, I think."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"[-]mifuyne 40 points 3 days ago

There's a theory going around that whatever you could've learned from this Prothean is already part of the core game, you don't need the DLC to get that content. What you do need this DLC for is to bring him along for the ride.

I'm inclined to believe this, to be honest. But we won't know for certain until the game comes out.

permalink
parent

[-]jessicamerizan[S] 69 points 3 days ago

No spoilers from me, but you may be on the right train of thought with that ;)"
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[-]jessicamerizan[S] 59 points 3 days ago

I hope you understand that I'm in a position where to reassure you, it would require me to reveal story spoilers, something that I don't think is acceptable.

Personally, I began my career as an archaeologist (for serious!) and the events surrounding this new character speak to me. However, if it wasn't DLC, it definitely wouldn't have been in the main game. There's other things that didn't fit in the main game that may end up as future DLC.

Again, I think this is a cool edition and definitely intended as a reward for serious fans (many of whom have purchased the collector's edition so this isn't even an issue for them). However, I have played the game without it and the lore surrounding the DLC is in the game already, this character just gives their own take on it.

Was that any less vague or helpful to anyone? :P

animehermit:
If you don't think the DLC is worth the $10, then don't buy it, no one is forcing you to.

Actually, by buying the CE months ago, they have already forced me to. It's kind of funny, and sad, if you think about it.

I'm just worried about the next time there is a game I like, but I don't drop the money for the CE (because of the physical goods are not attractive enough) and they bundle a "questionable" DLC into the CE edition.

It was mentioned, when the CE was announced, that the CE contained a special squadmate, and no one MADE you buy the CE.

So no, they didn't MAKE, or FORCE you to buy anything.

I guess in 12+ days we'll find out, just what the DLC bonus mission entails, and what having him in the squad differs from not able to.

This DLC may be innocent, I just don't like the presidence this sets for future games.

This isn't anything new at all, or anywere close to the first time something like this has happened, It isn't a precedent for anything

And why do you find people who pay more getting more scary?

SajuukKhar:
It was mentioned, when the CE was announced, that the CE contained a special squadmate, and no one MADE you buy the CE.

So no, they didn't MAKE, or FORCE you to buy anything.

Are you sure; This is the information I went off of back when I ordered the DLC from Amazon (and when I checked at Gamestop). It was identical to the information at Bioware and the forums at the time of announcement.

Premium metal case featuring commemorative artwork of Commander Shepard
70-page hardbound art book featuring hundreds of unique and gorgeous illustrations from the BioWare development team
Limited edition Mass Effect comic by Dark Horse Comics, complete with unique cover artwork
Join the ranks of the N7 with the premium fabric N7 patch
Exclusive 4x6 lithographic print featuring a one-of-a-kind piece of artwork

A full collection of in-game content that can't be found anywhere else:
N7 Arsenal Pack - Bring the firepower with the N7 Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, SMG, and Pistol
Robotic Dog - A faithful sidekick to keep you company on board the Normandy
Squadmate Alternate Outfit Pack - New appearances for your favorite squad members
N7 Hoodie - For Commander Shepard's casual days on board the Normandy
Mass Effect 3 with the digital soundtrack
Xbox LIVE Normandy prop for your avatar
A collection of forum and social badges, avatars, and perks

And yes, by including the special DLC character into the collectors edition, I have been forced to buy it. So now my only choice is to be complacent in its inclusion, cancel my CE and forgo all the other CE stuff I wanted, or boycott the game all together.

I'm not morally outraged enough to cancel my order, I just hate what this means for the future if this DLC is just as popular as every other damn track pack / weapons pack out there.

As somebody else said, "slippery slope". We are just sliding down it an inch at a time with every new game that comes out.

animehermit:

I would say Origin is less DRM-like than even Steam is. I don't need to launch Origin to play most of the games I own through the service, I can more easily set it to offline mode, and I can access my account on multiple computers much more easily.

That is changing with Me3, which, based on the Demo and Dev comments, shuts the game off if you lose your connection to the Origin servers. ME3 will not boot without Origin and requires Origin to be running the entire time, according to the devs on Origin's site.

BaronIveagh:

animehermit:

I would say Origin is less DRM-like than even Steam is. I don't need to launch Origin to play most of the games I own through the service, I can more easily set it to offline mode, and I can access my account on multiple computers much more easily.

That is changing with Me3, which, based on the Demo and Dev comments, shuts the game off if you lose your connection to the Origin servers. ME3 will not boot without Origin and requires Origin to be running the entire time, according to the devs on Origin's site.

I played the PC demo, and it functions like Steam does. But you can go offline with it. I just tried this with the PC demo, I set the game offline and then played the first part of the demo. You're only required to go online for the the multiplayer.

and unlike Steam, Origin has an actually functioning offline mode.

animehermit:

BaronIveagh:

animehermit:

I would say Origin is less DRM-like than even Steam is. I don't need to launch Origin to play most of the games I own through the service, I can more easily set it to offline mode, and I can access my account on multiple computers much more easily.

That is changing with Me3, which, based on the Demo and Dev comments, shuts the game off if you lose your connection to the Origin servers. ME3 will not boot without Origin and requires Origin to be running the entire time, according to the devs on Origin's site.

I played the PC demo, and it functions like Steam does. But you can go offline with it. I just tried this with the PC demo, I set the game offline and then played the first part of the demo. You're only required to go online for the the multiplayer.

and unlike Steam, Origin has an actually functioning offline mode.

\

The steam offline feature works just fine for me.

Murmillos:

SajuukKhar:
It was mentioned, when the CE was announced, that the CE contained a special squadmate, and no one MADE you buy the CE.

So no, they didn't MAKE, or FORCE you to buy anything.

Are you sure; This is the information I went off of back when I ordered the DLC from Amazon (and when I checked at Gamestop). It was identical to the information at Bioware and the forums at the time of announcement.

Premium metal case featuring commemorative artwork of Commander Shepard
70-page hardbound art book featuring hundreds of unique and gorgeous illustrations from the BioWare development team
Limited edition Mass Effect comic by Dark Horse Comics, complete with unique cover artwork
Join the ranks of the N7 with the premium fabric N7 patch
Exclusive 4x6 lithographic print featuring a one-of-a-kind piece of artwork

A full collection of in-game content that can't be found anywhere else:
N7 Arsenal Pack - Bring the firepower with the N7 Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, SMG, and Pistol
Robotic Dog - A faithful sidekick to keep you company on board the Normandy
Squadmate Alternate Outfit Pack - New appearances for your favorite squad members
N7 Hoodie - For Commander Shepard's casual days on board the Normandy
Mass Effect 3 with the digital soundtrack
Xbox LIVE Normandy prop for your avatar
A collection of forum and social badges, avatars, and perks

And yes, by including the special DLC character into the collectors edition, I have been forced to buy it. So now my only choice is to be complacent in its inclusion, cancel my CE and forgo all the other CE stuff I wanted, or boycott the game all together.

I'm not morally outraged enough to cancel my order, I just hate what this means for the future if this DLC is just as popular as every other damn track pack / weapons pack out there.

As somebody else said, "slippery slope". We are just sliding down it an inch at a time with every new game that comes out.

A person is expected to do research of a product before he or she buys it, you should never take what ONE place like Amazon says to be 100% accurate information.

I hear this same argument applied with Steam games, "ohh they FORCED me to install Steam because they didn't tell me", which is false. One is expected to know that Steam is on the game before they buy it, it is listed in several places.

Personal responsibility to know what is in the product you are buying applies in this.

Darkmantle:

The steam offline feature works just fine for me.

Steam's offline mode is notorious for being selective on who it does and doesn't work for.

Valve has patched it at least 20 times increasing to total number of people it works for but not ever solving the underlining problem.

Darkmantle:

animehermit:

BaronIveagh:

That is changing with Me3, which, based on the Demo and Dev comments, shuts the game off if you lose your connection to the Origin servers. ME3 will not boot without Origin and requires Origin to be running the entire time, according to the devs on Origin's site.

I played the PC demo, and it functions like Steam does. But you can go offline with it. I just tried this with the PC demo, I set the game offline and then played the first part of the demo. You're only required to go online for the the multiplayer.

and unlike Steam, Origin has an actually functioning offline mode.

\

The steam offline feature works just fine for me.

it works fine if you set it to offline mode BEFORE you lose your connection. If you do lose it while connected it's a toss up on whether or not it's gonna actually work.

animehermit:

I played the PC demo, and it functions like Steam does. But you can go offline with it. I just tried this with the PC demo, I set the game offline and then played the first part of the demo. You're only required to go online for the the multiplayer.

and unlike Steam, Origin has an actually functioning offline mode.

See, I have no problem with Steam working in offline mode, but Origin closed ME3's demo every time it dropped, regardless of what mode I was using.

This has been the subject of some debate on Bioware's boards, but it's supposedly 'working as designed', so I'll go with that being who it works until it's not.

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