Oh sure, it's VIDEO GAMES that are the problem.

Oh boy, here come the atheist quotes from the Bible and the theist 'you're misinterpreting it' posts...

Makes sense, religion is an easy target. And not in the sense of the modern day debate around it, but that it's really easy to construct an 'evil' faction focused around faith. Think about it, you can basically have your villains ignore legitimate reasoning and use their religion as a justification for all their actions. Take Seymour from Final Fantasy 10, his plan is completely bat-shit insane and stupid when viewed from an objective, secularist viewpoint. But then throw in that wacky state religion and all of a sudden 'he's just a religious wacko' seems like legitimate character motivation to some players (not me, but some).

RaikuFA:
He forgot SMT2 where you try to kill God. He'd have a field day with it.

Actually yeah...how could I have forgotten about the SMT series...

Everything else is just the tip of an iceberg >_>

Treblaine:
I will say the central tenement of Christianity (at least) is based on violence; that is you don't follow their dogma then you will be horribly tortured for all eternity.

Yep, TOOOOOTALLY based around violence. >_>

OT: I myself am religious and while I do not deny that a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion (which is also overblown and used as a scapegoat for other motivations; power, wealth, non-religious hatred, etc.), it is rather disheartening to see a near-absence of positive religious characters. Is it too much to ask for a good shepherd every so often? I'm not asking for religion to be crammed down the player's throats, but it would be nice to run across someone with religious beliefs who wasn't part of some antagonistic organization or didn't have negative ulterior motives.

Any bets on how long it'll be before this study is being waved around on Fox News?

Azuaron:

Treblaine:
I will say the central tenement of Christianity (at least) is based on violence; that is you don't follow their dogma then you will be horribly tortured for all eternity.

You've been reading too much Dante and too little Bible to be able to speak on this matter with authority.

Oh, so you are telling me there is no concept of Hell as a place of eternal torture in the Bible? And how you will be sent there if you don't do certain arbitrary things beyond just being a good person?

Anyway, I'm not using the bible for this basis because NEITHER DOES CHRISTIANITY! Almost every denomination (including my former denomination) not only picks and chooses which part of the bible they want to follow but every translation has been hugely and unscrupulously adulterated. From all this I was told by a priest that hell awaits those who don't follow the guidance of the bible, THAT is where I get this from.

If Christianity was JUST about the bible, then why do churches exist for priests to give sermons? Why isn't the sole message just "read the bible"?

They hide behind the bible, cherry picking what supports their organisations contemporary whims and defend the bible as infallible. It's artificial legitimacy. The homophobia seen in the modern church does not come from god. It comes from people, who look for excuses in the bible.

If you want to turn a reasonable Christian atheist, get them to actually read the entire bible rather than have select passages read to them and "interpreted" by the priestly hierarchy.

I have not read the entirety of the modern English translations of the bible as used by the Anglican Church. I have not read the Torah either. Nor the Qu'ran, nor Sruti of Hinduism, nor Svetambara of Jainism. Nor the Homeric Hyms of greek mythology, nor Dianetics of Scientology. All claim to have universal significance but none have a shred of evidence to convince me to read them. I read Dan Brown's Da Vinci Code and decided that was a waste of my time, so why bother with all those?

He probably failed to notice religion being portrayed normally or positively because it doesn't fucking stand out when it does.

Did he not notice the fact that The Nines are openly worshipped in Cyrodill and most of the world of the Elder Scrolls? And nothing really bad comes of them? Hell, you even get bonuses for praying at their Shrines? As opposed to the main cult who worships the Deadra Lord of Assholes and Douches?

Assassin's Creed the 1st is set during the damn Crusades. They were carried expressly for the purpose of religious violence. Derp. And if he paid attention, the Templars aren't actually religious in AC - they just use the Church because it became one of the most effective means of achieving their goal.

FF13....the religion isn't the problem. Its that the Big Head God and his main lackey are jealous, insecure Mommy-issue jerkasses who have to force others to do their bidding in order to get things done, which in turn causes the other gods to have to try and stop them...by being jerkasses themselves........
......
....
Ok, maybe FF13 does make it an issue.

Of course we portray it as violent. Organized Imaginary Friend Stores (Churches, Mosques, Synagogues) have never done any good in history. These businesses have spent thousands of years trying to sell ignorance and an invisible product, all whilst telling people that their friends with different values, views or imaginary friends are wrong and in some cases need to die.

To be fair how do you represent religion in a non-violent game? You'd probably have to resort to a mass simulator.

It's because they are? Even Buddhism, the religion that is based around the ENTIRE idea of peace and harmony has some really, really violent history.

Just research one of the enlightenment methods, that requires you to either bury yourself alive, set yourself on fire, that kind of stuff.

All religions suck in the violence department, nobody can even deny this... I don't care how pro religion you are.

Iron Criterion:
To be fair how do you represent religion in a non-violent game? You'd probably have to resort to a mass simulator.

I see it as less of "let's put religion in a non-violent game" (and trust me, VERSE-MEMORIZING GAMES ARE BORING!), but more "let's put religion in a violent game and use them as GOOD guys."

There are no surprises with this finding. The three big religions in western culture are ridiculously violent. All one must do is read any random page in the Bible to verify this. These video games are reflecting reality.

Sandytimeman:
I can't seem to recall the correct verse but in Deuteronomy in the Old testament there is detailed instructions on how to rape and marry a woman against her will.

Hey bro. Bro! Bro! Guess what bro? Did you know that during wars, a lot of rape happens? Like, tons?
This was to set up a precedent for marriage, rather than rape. Of course the woman's feelings aren't taken into account, 1) because she's a prisoner, and 2) because you're assuming she would be against the whole idea.

You're forgetting that whenever one country conquered another, it's women were ALWAYS sold as slaves and prositutes. The prisoners would know this very well, so marriage would no doubt be an easy way out for them. That said there would be cases of marital rape, of course.
Just like there were cases of marital rape all around the world, and lots of cases of rape and murder by soldiers - like there is in every single war since the beginning of time.

You have a Fox News vs. Videogames view of the Bible - you take everything out of context, act like it lets you do the most unspeakable acts, and then bash it for it like the narrow minded scum that you are.

Sandytimeman:
it's pretty funny their are also verses that say the sun orbits around the earth.
"The earth is fixed at (or near) the center of the universe. The sun and other planets travel around it. That is what the Bible plainly says [Ps. 93:1, Ps. 19:1-6, Joshua 10:12-14] and what the evidence indicates. "

I call bullshit.

Guess why:

1) The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Ps. 93:1

2) (The sun) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. Psalm 19:6

3) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Joshua 10:13

These are your precious evidence, right? Congratulations, retard, you just read too much into the Bible - if you were a theologian you would be laughed out of your job.

1) The world is established - cannot be moved, just means you can't fuck with it cos it's too big and heavy. Not that it literally doesn't move in space. Cannot be moved =/= does not move.

2) At first glance this seems to be saying the sun orbits the earth. Except that's first glance from a narrow minded retard - who doesn't bother to actually evaluate it on it's own merits. It's obviously talking about the sun from a perspective of someone on the earth. To someone on the earth, it clearly looks like the Sun goes round the earth - it moves from East to West, and it's only if you become an astronomer that you realize the difference.
This isn't a problem with the Bible, this is a problem of perspective on a completely normal scientific issue.

3) This was classed as a special miracle. The sun didn't move in the sky for a whole day. So what. A miracle is a miracle. That's another problem for another day.

Mod list. Check all that apply:

[X] Given Warning
[ ] Given Ban
[X] Slammed with my mighty hammer.

Kimarous:

Treblaine:
I will say the central tenement of Christianity (at least) is based on violence; that is you don't follow their dogma then you will be horribly tortured for all eternity.

The Ten CommandmentsPHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cucndmMjAwMC5jb20vZ2lmcy8xMC1Hb2QtTWFuLmpwZyIgYWx0PSJpbWFnZSIvPjwvcD4=

Yep, TOOOOOTALLY based around violence. >_>

OT: I myself am religious and while I do not deny that a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion (which is also overblown and used as a scapegoat for other motivations; power, wealth, non-religious hatred, etc.), it is rather disheartening to see a near-absence of positive religious characters. Is it too much to ask for a good shepherd every so often? I'm not asking for religion to be crammed down the player's throats, but it would be nice to run across someone with religious beliefs who wasn't part of some antagonistic organization or didn't have negative ulterior motives.

The do not worship any other god one... Yeah that's been used to excuse quite a lot of violence, both in the bible and in real life.

People keep talking about ulterior motives when it comes to abuses of religion and this might be true. However, I'm not a believer so both religion being the whole motive for something horrible and religion being used to justify it are horrible things, people can use the socital structures created by various religions to do wrong and the small scale benefits that these structures can bring do not outweigh the problems that only occur because of religious insitutions.

On the other bit of your post,more character variety in fiction is always nice :)

Wait, Castlevania LOS and Mass Effect 2?
I haven't played either of those in a while, but I can't remember either of them having conflict based on religious zealots.

He does raise a valid point-- I never noticed it before--and I like how he stays reasonable by saying games aren't making satanics out of all of us. Good job.

OT:
It's interesting to see how many people are commenting before they finished the article.

RaNDM G:

Andy Chalk:
A University of Missouri doctoral student says many modern videogames "problematize" organized religion by equating it with violence in their stories.

Nevermind the centuries of warfare, racism, intolerance, and bigotry spurred on by religious leaders. Videogames are the real problem.

I can kinda get where this guy is coming from, but his theory doesn't just pertain to games. All forms of media (comics, film, novels, tall tales, whatever) have themes of violence that take inspiration from historical conflicts. And it just so happens that faith and religion played a huge role in some of the biggest (the Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant War).

There's some pretty fucked up stuff in history. That's what makes these stories compelling.

And secularism/politics/political ideology has played its part in such recent conflicts as the Cold War and World War 2 (not to mention being the actual driving force behind pretty much every evil group in history), while atheism itself has some rather vicious purges to its name (not to mention a supporting role in both of the prior-listed events) But those have fallen out of vogue as "driving conflicts" for villains, having been replaced by "Religion," "Capitalism," and "Being a country dweller."

As a rule of thumb, any storyline/driving motivation/evil force that shows up in a single work or universe may be regarded as "for the sake of story." When one person does something, that thing is an interesting anomaly When everyone does it, it's an annoying trend. In this case, everyone and their mother seems determined to paint organized religion in general, and Christianity in particular, as some sort of breeding ground for evil - a notion which is quite simply not true, and is very close to offensive to someone who subscribes to both.

It's akin to the "Games are evil" bent in print media nowadays, only for something you probably don't personally like. Which, while it may make it OK from your point of view, doesn't make it OK overall, and certainly not for those of us who subscribe to the ideas being lambasted by game developers with chips on their shoulder.

Again, there is no need for Bible verses to be included as collectables in your standard FPS (as so-called "religious" games are wont to include); all I would like to see is a bit of moderation, a bit of fairness, and games in which the Church is portrayed with the full depth of character it actually has, from the multitude of sincere believers to the noble humanitarian causes championed by its members, in addition to the political power plays which marred it in the past.

Andy Chalk:
snip

Am I one of the few who remember "http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comics/critical-miss/9091-The-GameChurch," OT: I think it's an easy target, seriously, if you wanted to, you can make anything look like religion (Go God Go).

"So long as there are men, there will be wars." -Albert Einstein

The guy has a point, if there's a big religious organization in a video game 9 times out of 10 you want to kill their leader.

Kimarous:

Treblaine:
I will say the central tenement of Christianity (at least) is based on violence; that is you don't follow their dogma then you will be horribly tortured for all eternity.

The Ten CommandmentsPHA+PGltZyBzcmM9Imh0dHA6Ly93d3cucndmMjAwMC5jb20vZ2lmcy8xMC1Hb2QtTWFuLmpwZyIgYWx0PSJpbWFnZSIvPjwvcD4=

Yep, TOOOOOTALLY based around violence. >_>

OT: I myself am religious and while I do not deny that a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion (which is also overblown and used as a scapegoat for other motivations; power, wealth, non-religious hatred, etc.), it is rather disheartening to see a near-absence of positive religious characters. Is it too much to ask for a good shepherd every so often? I'm not asking for religion to be crammed down the player's throats, but it would be nice to run across someone with religious beliefs who wasn't part of some antagonistic organization or didn't have negative ulterior motives.

And what happens if you disobey those commandments?

You go to hell. An infinite punishment for a finite "transgression".

"Do not worship any other gods"

So all Hindus are going to hell. Or does Christian teachings say they are going to go somewhere else?

I think a reason that religious based altruism has less weight than inherent altruism as there is the sense they aren't doing it because they care about others more than themselves... but that they think this will get them the infinite reward of entry into heaven rather than the infinite punishment of hell. And even how some can "play the system" such as the system of codified forgiveness in the Catholic Church that played such a role in decades of institutionalised sexual abuse of children.

And in the back of everyone's minds we've seen where this logic can lead. It can lead 19 men to believing it's beneficial to hijack airliners and crash them into buildings, so they can go to heaven. It's motivated the Jim Jones People's Church to mass suicide and murder.

Why not take god out of the picture? Have the good shepherd help people because the think about what is the the more important thing for those around them, that maybe it's worth is leaping off the helicopter at the last moment to save the little girl, not because god will reward you but because she's a little girl and you can't bear to leave her.

Morality does not come from religion. Unless Piranhas are secretly Christian, as even on their basic level in the feeding frenzy on a carcass they do not to attack each other, even though one of them would get fatter by doing so, their group would fare worse.

While religion has been used as reasoning behind some shocking behaviour in the past (e.g. Christian Crusades), it does seem a bit childish somewhat for developers to use religion as the go-to place for reasoning behind the enemy's actions.

RaNDM G:

Andy Chalk:
A University of Missouri doctoral student says many modern videogames "problematize" organized religion by equating it with violence in their stories.

Nevermind the centuries of warfare, racism, intolerance, and bigotry spurred on by religious leaders. Videogames are the real problem.

I can kinda get where this guy is coming from, but his theory doesn't just pertain to games. All forms of media (comics, film, novels, tall tales, whatever) have themes of violence that take inspiration from historical conflicts. And it just so happens that faith and religion played a huge role in some of the biggest (the Crusades, the Catholic/Protestant War).

There's some pretty fucked up stuff in history. That's what makes these stories compelling.

He never once actually said anything was wrong with it, nor did he present any evidence that video games are the only medium that do it. He just said that it is prevalent, which is absolutely right.

For a perfectly moral man to do evil things, you need religion.

omicron1:

While atheism itself has some rather vicious purges to its name

I'm genuinely interested, give me examples of atrocities done in the name of an absence of belief.

KraGeRzR:

Sandytimeman:
I can't seem to recall the correct verse but in Deuteronomy in the Old testament there is detailed instructions on how to rape and marry a woman against her will.

Hey bro. Bro! Bro! Guess what bro? Did you know that during wars, a lot of rape happens? Like, tons?
This was to set up a precedent for marriage, rather than rape. Of course the woman's feelings aren't taken into account, 1) because she's a prisoner, and 2) because you're assuming she would be against the whole idea.

You're forgetting that whenever one country conquered another, it's women were ALWAYS sold as slaves and prositutes. The prisoners would know this very well, so marriage would no doubt be an easy way out for them. That said there would be cases of marital rape, of course.
Just like there were cases of marital rape all around the world, and lots of cases of rape and murder by soldiers - like there is in every single war since the beginning of time.

You have a Fox News vs. Videogames view of the Bible - you take everything out of context, act like it lets you do the most unspeakable acts, and then bash it for it like the narrow minded scum that you are.

Sandytimeman:
it's pretty funny their are also verses that say the sun orbits around the earth.
"The earth is fixed at (or near) the center of the universe. The sun and other planets travel around it. That is what the Bible plainly says [Ps. 93:1, Ps. 19:1-6, Joshua 10:12-14] and what the evidence indicates. "

I call bullshit.

Guess why:

1) The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Ps. 93:1

2) (The sun) His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. Psalm 19:6

3) And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. Joshua 10:13

These are your precious evidence, right? Congratulations, retard, you just read too much into the Bible - if you were a theologian you would be laughed out of your job.

1) The world is established - cannot be moved, just means you can't fuck with it cos it's too big and heavy. Not that it literally doesn't move in space. Cannot be moved =/= does not move.

2) At first glance this seems to be saying the sun orbits the earth. Except that's first glance from a narrow minded retard - who doesn't bother to actually evaluate it on it's own merits. It's obviously talking about the sun from a perspective of someone on the earth. To someone on the earth, it clearly looks like the Sun goes round the earth - it moves from East to West, and it's only if you become an astronomer that you realize the difference.
This isn't a problem with the Bible, this is a problem of perspective on a completely normal scientific issue.

3) This was classed as a special miracle. The sun didn't move in the sky for a whole day. So what. A miracle is a miracle. That's another problem for another day.

Check all that apply.

[ ] Correct after all
[ ] Had indisputable evidence
[X] Pwned
[X] Told like a bitch

Number one: I thought God's morality was universal and absolute? If he is so flexible to the mores of today to permit and prescribe RAPE OF PRISONERS OF WAR but somehow doesn't apply today, then how is Christianity unable to accept adult homosexuals who consensually and mutually love each from marrying?

Number two: So why was Galileo Galilei vilified by the church for giving evidence that the Earth was not the centre of the universe?

Remember, the bible is JUST A BOOK! The religion is what the the hierarchy says is god's word. If religion was JUST the scripture, then people would just read the scripture and there would be no such thing as priests nor churches. Christianity interpreted the text that way.

Treblaine:
snip

Look, I'm not here to debate Christianity. If you want to understand us without reading holy books, go here.

I'm just trying to support positive portrayals of religion in general, not specifically Christianity. I'm not arguing things like "religious altruism is better than regular altruism" or that many horrible things have been done in the name of religion. What I am arguing for is an increase of "religious + good" characters.

Is it really so bad to have a character in a game who is clearly of a particular faith who isn't trying to oppress the world and is just a decent person who happens to be religious?

Kimarous:

Iron Criterion:
To be fair how do you represent religion in a non-violent game? You'd probably have to resort to a mass simulator.

I see it as less of "let's put religion in a non-violent game" (and trust me, VERSE-MEMORIZING GAMES ARE BORING!), but more "let's put religion in a violent game and use them as GOOD guys."

Good point.

Say that though he did use Castlevania: Lords of Shadow as an example of his theory. And outside of the demons I am sure there are no evil religious characters in that game (though I didn't finish part the first disc).

ElPatron:
This just in: it took a doctoral student to find that water is wet!

Draconalis:

GrandmaFunk:

He didn't say anything that's controversial, anti-gaming or pro-religion.

He didn't really take a stance at all. It made his entire argument seem more like a pointless observation than anything else.

This.

Umm... Does anyone actually expect a doctoral student to make an original finding that is novel, controversial and well defended? If so, those people probably don't have a very good grasp on the nature of academia. Writing something exciting and original is a good way to be ripped to shreds because it attracts the attention of what is essentially a nation of critics.

Evilpigeon:

omicron1:

While atheism itself has some rather vicious purges to its name

I'm genuinely interested, give me examples of atrocities done in the name of an absence of belief.

Before Hitler got all "Valhalla" in his regime a lot of his propaganda and party platform was based on the science of Eugenics. The Jew was "scientifically" an inferior race. Whether or not you think Hitler misrepresented Eugenics is not the issue, it's a very concrete example of science being used to instigate one of the most horrible events of human history.

For a more pointed example of problems caused "in the absence in belief", western Europe has long had trouble with Anarchist movements rioting at every event possible. These Anarchist movements are (kinda of hilariously in the grand picture) pretty organized/experienced at fighting the police. I would argue that this constant undermining of authority causes a lot of social issues, but doesn't really count as "atrocities."

Before you get offended, remember: this article was written, edited, and published by a multicultrual team of various religious faiths and beliefs.

NpPro93:
Before you get offended, remember: this article was written, edited, and published by a multicultrual team of various religious faiths and beliefs.

+1 - I loved that "ass-covering" disclaimer at the start of AC :D

*Study Says Reality Problemizes Religion as Violent