Used Game Sales "Killing" Single Player Titles

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Grey Day for Elcia:
I view people who buy and trade in used games as leeches--not really harming the growth of the beast, but doing nothing to help it grow and reaping the rewards all the same. Alone, not an issue. Just a parasite. On mass? Problem.

I don't like them much.

Because I really give a crap about this "beast"'s growth and it's pile of money? This is the problem with your argument, you (and the publisher's) assume I care about how well there business is doing, well I don't. They make bad decisions? I ain't going to rush out and buy all their games new just so they don't go under, It's their responsibility not to push themselves under.

To use your own analogy the beast needs to evolve to survive this onslaught of "parasites" doesn't it? Otherwise it'll go extinct while others who did evolve flourish...

lacktheknack:

gideonkain:
Movies still come on DVD/BluRay and Music still comes on CDs - so saying that Video Games being sold for 3 times the price of a movie and 6 times the price of a music CD aren't profitable is absurd.

Uh... compare the budgets of movies/music to video games. Notice that video games have hilariously larger budgets.

Also compare the audiences of movies/music to video games. Notice that the audience of video games is immensely smaller.

Which of course is NOT the consumer's fault. If a company builds a product that costs them too much to ever see a profit it deserves bankruptcy as the people in charge are idiots. They should be designing on a realistic budget for what returns they expect so they can see a profit without turning on their own customers for not giving them enough money. A small budget, well designed game doesn't need all the graphics and other money sinks to be enjoyable and make major money. The big games are struggling because they can outsell the small game 20 times and still only just breaking even. That isn't the people who buy the game's fault (no matter how they buy it), that is the person who overvalues what they were doing's fault.

If VW, BMW, Mercades, Chevvy, Ford or any other car manufacturer built an amazing vehicle that had the best of everything for like $10 million they'd never sell it for a profit, however build a small hatch or saloon with good compromises for $5k, sell it for $10k (base model) and boom massively profitable model. Games companies actually have an advantage over these too that a game is built then replicated cheaply a car isn't.

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:

gideonkain:
Movies still come on DVD/BluRay and Music still comes on CDs - so saying that Video Games being sold for 3 times the price of a movie and 6 times the price of a music CD aren't profitable is absurd.

Uh... compare the budgets of movies/music to video games. Notice that video games have hilariously larger budgets.

Also compare the audiences of movies/music to video games. Notice that the audience of video games is immensely smaller.

Which of course is NOT the consumer's fault. If a company builds a product that costs them too much to ever see a profit it deserves bankruptcy as the people in charge are idiots. They should be designing on a realistic budget for what returns they expect so they can see a profit without turning on their own customers for not giving them enough money. A small budget, well designed game doesn't need all the graphics and other money sinks to be enjoyable and make major money. The big games are struggling because they can outsell the small game 20 times and still only just breaking even. That isn't the people who buy the game's fault (no matter how they buy it), that is the person who overvalues what they were doing's fault.

If VW, BMW, Mercades, Chevvy, Ford or any other car manufacturer built an amazing vehicle that had the best of everything for like $10 million they'd never sell it for a profit, however build a small hatch or saloon with good compromises for $5k, sell it for $10k (base model) and boom massively profitable model. Games companies actually have an advantage over these too that a game is built then replicated cheaply a car isn't.

Fair enough.

AAA should implode and indie/AA should reign supreme for a while. It would really shake things up.

lacktheknack:
snip

Fair enough.

AAA should implode and indie/AA should reign supreme for a while. It would really shake things up.

I think that is exactly what needs to happen. It is the only way we're going to get out of the rut of zero innovation we've fallen into. The industry seems to have become too bloated with shareholders, anything other than massive profit margins being branded a failure and comity design. True we wouldn't get our big blockbusters and gaming would have to take a step back from graphics up the ass for a while but I think it'd turn out positive in the long run.

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:
snip

Fair enough.

AAA should implode and indie/AA should reign supreme for a while. It would really shake things up.

I think that is exactly what needs to happen. It is the only way we're going to get out of the rut of zero innovation we've fallen into. The industry seems to have become too bloated with shareholders, anything other than massive profit margins being branded a failure and comity design. True we wouldn't get our big blockbusters and gaming would have to take a step back from graphics up the ass for a while but I think it'd turn out positive in the long run.

Now, are you putting your money where your mouth is? I am. I haven't bought a AAA game since Portal 2, and nothing for a loooooong time since that.

It's the increasing greed of the games industry. They lose absolutly nothing from used game sales, since they still get paid for every unit they move and do not wind up supporting more than the number of units they sold to begin with. Claiming that they lose money from used games sales is a gigantic lie reinforcing an industry temper tantrum over how billions of dollars in profits aren't enough, and they see even more money they wish they had too.

Claiming that the kinds of games we want aren't viable anymore is not exactly correct. More honestly it could be said that the kinds of games players want aren't as profitable as puking out casual games and multiplayer titles. It's a way of trying to justify the loss of quality in the game industry and profiteering without it making it look like they are just being greedy.

In the end even if the games industry was to get everything it wanted here, and ended the used game market, ended piracy, and all of those things which it grew into a multi-billion dollar industry despite the existance of, they still wouldn't produce that many epic single player games for serious games, because in the end puking out another deritive shooter based off of "boxed" mechanics and physics, or other form of casual game, is always going to be cheaper. Multiplayer which lets them say create a dozen maps and recycle them endlessly as oppoised to scores or even hundreds for a good single player game is going to remain a great way of making money off of a game for minimal investment in resources.

Overall we're looking at a sort of "carrot and a stick" approach here with the implication being that if we give the industry what they want right now, we'll get what we want, but in the end once they get what they want they will just keeping doing the same thing because that's where the most money is going to be made. Any promises inherant in such a nebulous "deal" might as well not exist.

That's my thoughts at any rate. I think we need an industry that is about the games first and the money second, rather than vice versa. I understand this is a "for profit" business and you can't expect the industry to take constant losses, but at the same token I think trying to squeeze every possible dime out of things is going too far. Capitalism is fine, but really the problem is that a few greedy morons always wind up ruining it for everyone else. The game industry needs to focus on making great games that happen to turn a profit, not pursueing the biggest possible profit, with a game happening to turn out being great being a relatively minor concern in the big picture.

I know many will disagree with me, but again, that's what I think.

Even in the absence of an arbitrage/used market, prices on games would not have gone down anyway. Rising development costs combined with virtual price-hikes ensure that much.

Independent developers* get away with much lower prices, because they have more in say in their prices and generally operate on a much lower budget. Yet they're doing booming business despite the OTHER form of widespread digital arbitrage looming over their heads (piracy..yes I had to go there, and I'm sorry).

(assuming PC platform of course, as that's the one I'm most experienced with. I'm aware that a great many indies publish on consoles too, though many port to PC later. Just look for the "DirectX 9.0c" label under requirements and chances are high that it was ported from XBLA)

To put it more bluntly: If publishers know that customers are willing to pay 60 bucks for a relatively short single-player game (usually around 10 hours, plus a possible grind coefficient), they will charge at least 60 bucks regardless of what the rest of the market does.
That's an oligopoly, and given how few Big Publishers there are now, they don't really have much of a reason to change that.

Around 2000-2005, there were more viable game publishers in the defacto "AAA market" (there are technically more today, but a lot of them are strictly-casual, and I'm omitting self-published games). Incidentally, game prices competed just a bit more, relative to both their production cost, and competition. Even re-releases sometimes came at a strong discount. I could buy Greatest Hits versions of PS1 games, brand new for example.

While piracy wasn't quite as rampant (due to dial-up still being the dominant internet connection for the US), the used market was still there and they were still exploitative.

I remember walking into a Gamestop in 2004 with my friend looking to sell his Pokemon Ruby, and I walked out of the store with said game for a little more the 1 dollar Gamestop offered (I offered 1 dollar and ten cents, and sold to the highest bidder. And it was painfully obvious how big of a sham it was when you could look down through the display case and see Pokemon Ruby, used, sitting there for 35 bucks).

In 2000, I remember walking into Babbage's and seeing a used Armored Core: Master of Arena for a few bucks less, sitting right next to a brand new one. They didn't even try to hide the price difference.

lacktheknack:

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:
snip

Fair enough.

AAA should implode and indie/AA should reign supreme for a while. It would really shake things up.

I think that is exactly what needs to happen. It is the only way we're going to get out of the rut of zero innovation we've fallen into. The industry seems to have become too bloated with shareholders, anything other than massive profit margins being branded a failure and comity design. True we wouldn't get our big blockbusters and gaming would have to take a step back from graphics up the ass for a while but I think it'd turn out positive in the long run.

Now, are you putting your money where your mouth is? I am. I haven't bought a AAA game since Portal 2, and nothing for a loooooong time since that.

Last AAA I bought new was... gotta look at collection a second... Skyrim, followed by F1 2010! I've been surviving off indie (minecraft mainly) and retro (just finished FF8 again).

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:

cookyy2k:

I think that is exactly what needs to happen. It is the only way we're going to get out of the rut of zero innovation we've fallen into. The industry seems to have become too bloated with shareholders, anything other than massive profit margins being branded a failure and comity design. True we wouldn't get our big blockbusters and gaming would have to take a step back from graphics up the ass for a while but I think it'd turn out positive in the long run.

Now, are you putting your money where your mouth is? I am. I haven't bought a AAA game since Portal 2, and nothing for a loooooong time since that.

Last AAA I bought new was... gotta look at collection a second... Skyrim, followed by F1 2010! I've been surviving off indie (minecraft mainly) and retro (just finished FF8 again).

WE WILL KILL AAA TOGETHER! >:D

One question.

Why is this our problem?

it's shitty gamestop and Best buy that are screwing you guys.

Seriously. I don't see why I should be responsible for ensuring you get 90% of the profit. That's your problem. My issue here is the overall decline in quality gaming. period.

When you fix that problem, then we'll talk. Until then, I hope gamestop saps you dry.

lacktheknack:

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:

Now, are you putting your money where your mouth is? I am. I haven't bought a AAA game since Portal 2, and nothing for a loooooong time since that.

Last AAA I bought new was... gotta look at collection a second... Skyrim, followed by F1 2010! I've been surviving off indie (minecraft mainly) and retro (just finished FF8 again).

WE WILL KILL AAA TOGETHER! >:D

I really doubt that will happen. Although I am hopeful that all these new avenues for indie developers to sell will help. Also the fact that today's graphics have reached the point where huge amounts of money would be required to push it further, I can see indie games looking like AAA games in 5 years due to AAAs not been able to push the graphics much further and the technology of today being more accessible to everyone. We just need to hope that today's indies and small devs don't become tomorrow's EA...

david &%#*ing braben ? the guy is a self-aggrandising knobhead who thinks the world owes him a living and he should be due a knighthood or something because he wrote one game in the 80s the vast majority of which he didn't really write (seriously ask Ian Bell sometime...).

sorry but i can't take anything the guys says without a very health dose of scepticism and neither imo should any self styled games journalist who should be easily privy to the very unflattering tales of how Bell and braben (and Chris Sawyer and braben) parted ways.

he's like Britains shit version of Steve Jobs but without the actually going anywhere in life and one of the very last people i want to hear from about "The Future of Games" because, and i'm absolutely sure of this, he won't have any part in it.

cookyy2k:

Grey Day for Elcia:
I view people who buy and trade in used games as leeches--not really harming the growth of the beast, but doing nothing to help it grow and reaping the rewards all the same. Alone, not an issue. Just a parasite. On mass? Problem.

I don't like them much.

Because I really give a crap about this "beast"'s growth and it's pile of money? This is the problem with your argument, you (and the publisher's) assume I care about how well there business is doing, well I don't. They make bad decisions? I ain't going to rush out and buy all their games new just so they don't go under, It's their responsibility not to push themselves under.

To use your own analogy the beast needs to evolve to survive this onslaught of "parasites" doesn't it? Otherwise it'll go extinct while others who did evolve flourish...

Pretty sure someone posting on a video game website cares about the beast by virtue of them, you know, enjoying the products it produces, lol.

Grey Day for Elcia:

cookyy2k:

Grey Day for Elcia:
I view people who buy and trade in used games as leeches--not really harming the growth of the beast, but doing nothing to help it grow and reaping the rewards all the same. Alone, not an issue. Just a parasite. On mass? Problem.

I don't like them much.

Because I really give a crap about this "beast"'s growth and it's pile of money? This is the problem with your argument, you (and the publisher's) assume I care about how well there business is doing, well I don't. They make bad decisions? I ain't going to rush out and buy all their games new just so they don't go under, It's their responsibility not to push themselves under.

To use your own analogy the beast needs to evolve to survive this onslaught of "parasites" doesn't it? Otherwise it'll go extinct while others who did evolve flourish...

Pretty sure someone posting on a video game website cares about the beast by virtue of them, you know, enjoying the products it produces, lol.

Not in the slightest, it can keel over and die for all I care. There will always be games being developed and produced without the lumbering beast of the producers and this over bloated industry. I don't care one little bit for the producers/businesses/industry, I care about the end product. Why would I care in the slightest about their bottom line? I'm not a shareholder or employee, I owe them no loyalty. As long as there is someone, somewhere who knows how to program and can make a reasonable experience I'm fine.

cookyy2k:

Grey Day for Elcia:

cookyy2k:

Because I really give a crap about this "beast"'s growth and it's pile of money? This is the problem with your argument, you (and the publisher's) assume I care about how well there business is doing, well I don't. They make bad decisions? I ain't going to rush out and buy all their games new just so they don't go under, It's their responsibility not to push themselves under.

To use your own analogy the beast needs to evolve to survive this onslaught of "parasites" doesn't it? Otherwise it'll go extinct while others who did evolve flourish...

Pretty sure someone posting on a video game website cares about the beast by virtue of them, you know, enjoying the products it produces, lol.

Not in the slightest, it can keel over and die for all I care. There will always be games being developed and produced without the lumbering beast of the producers and this over bloated industry. I don't care one little bit for the producers/businesses/industry, I care about the end product. Why would I care in the slightest about their bottom line? I'm not a shareholder or employee, I owe them no loyalty. As long as there is someone, somewhere who knows how to program and can make a reasonable experience I'm fine.

Games you play on Xbox: Saints Row 3, Skyrim, Halo, Fallout 3, Mass Effect 2. Every single one of them produced and made available from the largest companies in gaming, all costing millions to make.

But you don't care at all if they go bust, right?

lololol

lacktheknack:

cookyy2k:

lacktheknack:
snip

Fair enough.

AAA should implode and indie/AA should reign supreme for a while. It would really shake things up.

I think that is exactly what needs to happen. It is the only way we're going to get out of the rut of zero innovation we've fallen into. The industry seems to have become too bloated with shareholders, anything other than massive profit margins being branded a failure and comity design. True we wouldn't get our big blockbusters and gaming would have to take a step back from graphics up the ass for a while but I think it'd turn out positive in the long run.

Now, are you putting your money where your mouth is? I am. I haven't bought a AAA game since Portal 2, and nothing for a loooooong time since that.

The person you quote is a hypocrite.

They say they dont buy them new, so they really want the AAA games, they are just cheapskates that dont want to pay full price and support those who made the games.

You I can respect if you stick to your guns, but the people I just laugh at and expect to drool on themselves are the ones who buy those games used like its some kind of statement.

They are no better than pirates.

Yet another weak excuse from the game industry, Let me get this straight you charge $120 to 140 bucks for a new game and then act all surprised when we go looking for a second hand copy and then you have the nerve to tell us, the consumers its all our fault.

Publishers greed has put them in this position and their answer to this problem is more greed, schemes like project ten dollar for example. It's no wonder game sales are falling, we as consumers are simply sick of this bull and are looking for other options. They really have no one to blame but themselves.

Zeel:
One question.

Why is this our problem?

it's shitty gamestop and Best buy that are screwing you guys.

Seriously. I don't see why I should be responsible for ensuring you get 90% of the profit. That's your problem. My issue here is the overall decline in quality gaming. period.

When you fix that problem, then we'll talk. Until then, I hope gamestop saps you dry.

It's a problem they can approach any way they wish, seeing how its their problem.

Their approach is to strangle the used market out of existence.

I assume you're OK with this, seeing that it's not your problem?

FelixG:

Trippy Turtle:
Prices wouldn't have gone down the amount you resell the game for.
Game stores could say the same thing about them not making enough profit without pre-owned games.

"Enough profit"? Fuck gamestop, all they do is keep from drooling on themselves when they put the box up then swipe it under a laser.

They have nothing to do with making the game and are leeches.

Just to clear it up, I do think that they make enough profit. It was just that the argument works both ways.

God damn this fucking nonsense spewing up again.

The games that get returned in a day are the shitty games no one wants.

[incoherent rage]

This whole "used game" BS is all rendered invalid when you bring into play the fact that someone had to buy the game new in order for it to be put on the used market to begin with.

Its not the gamer's fault they don't feel like dropping $60 on a new IP and its not the gamer's fault that publishers make shitty games that no one wants to gamble $60 on.

Greg Tito:

"Prices would have come down long ago if the industry was getting a share of the resells," Braben stated.

No, they wouldn't have. Publishers are going to bleed us any way they can and if there were no used game sales, it just means more profit for them. Besides, if all used game sales and pirating in the world were abolished they'd just find a new boogeyman so they can victimise themselves. Mark my words, in 15 years time it'll be the people who don't buy day-one DLC that will be "killing" the game industry.

seriously??

since when are single player games dying? did I miss somthing here?

Yeah, and I'm sure the last Ice Age, as well as the Tunguska Event, were caused by used game sales, too.

Damn those evil used game sales.

Mark my words, in 15 years time it'll be the people who don't buy day-one DLC that will be "killing" the game industry.
report
Quote

No, it'll be indie games. These companies are already pushing heavily against crowd funding, a good source of capital for indie games, and there's already a law proposed to make it harder.

These companies simply are trying to kill any competition, that's it. Soon, we who like to play games with good gameplay instead of only good graphics will be accused of leeching and killing the game industry.

Irridium:
Yes, because that's why Skyrim, Fallout 3, New Vegas, Kingdoms of Amalur, Dragon Age Origins, Arkham City, and Mass effect 1 & 2 were all big failures.

Because they didn't have multiplayer components.

Also, perhaps Gamestop would be more open to sharing used game profits if Publishers were more open to not leaving only $3 or so in profit from new sales. Just a thought.

and Deus Ex...

becaue seriously Im not seeing single player going anywhere

NameIsRobertPaulson:

Senare:

I want as much money as possible to go to the people who made the game possible and the development of better titles. And when I view things from that angle, buying used games is no different from piracy.

Buying used games = piracy.

And there went your entire argument out the window.

Purchasing a product with earned money from a legitimite business = piracy...

Craigslist = piracy

Ebay = piracy

Wow, piracy IS a huge problem!

There were several points in my post, so I hope you do not disregard them all because you disagree with one.

Of course piracy is not the same as buying a used game in general. But when viewed in the context of financial support towards the ones who made the game possible they are interchangeable. So if I all I care about is to support the developer (and new games) then they are equally bad options.

Fuck the Industry. No seriously, fuck those Guys. There is no other Product where i'd have to be concerned in any way when i buy it used. Well except maybe for toilet Paper...

Videogame Developers are the only Industry i know of who openly whine about the used Sales and try to block them.
Pretty much everyone else is glad that you're at least having the brandname sitting around.
Developers should be glad the Games are out there.
If you can't buy used Games, the whole Market would be smaller. A new Title would be less of a Topic to talk about since half the People wouldn't be playing "Modern Warfare 3" but rather play MW2 some more or even MW1 because more People wouldn't bother to invest 60$ for what's in those Games. You can't trade in your used Copy of MW2 if the Store has difficulty reselling it because the Publisher has implemented Stuff to prevent that.

Imagine what it would be like if everyone had to buy mw3 with 60$, without trading in another Game? There wouldn't be as many Players around. Less People who'd buy a Sequel because they aren't willing to pump out that kind of Money for what little is new in the next Title, which will have Multiplayer Servers that may be Ghosttowns in a Year anyway. If you can't trade your Games in, People might as well play older Titles in Multiplayer because they're still there and may be better in some regards.

But seriously, what do i care? I want to play a Game and if i can get it cheaper, i may do so.

I buy the Game and that should be all i have to do to get the People who made the Game some Money.

If i buy a Game used and then have to go through Hoops, i may as well not bother.

The problem that I have withn it is availability, as they said in the article they don't restock new games and I dont know how many times I've come to gamestop a month later to pick up a game and it just usn't there new, so I in turn have to buy it used, I dont have many other stores available to buy games like walmart or best buy, and no car available to get to it, Also I don't have the space or internet connection to get downloadable titles. And it is really frustrating at times because sometimes you want the game new. They really need to keep restocking the game new after it comes out.

BULL. S***.

If they can charge 120 dollars for a game, and people will buy it for 120 dollars, they will damn well charge the 120 dollars. You know what would happen if they got a percentage of used game sales? They'd roll in it. Then make the next game, as they were going to anyway.

It really annoys me that game companies think their products aren't subject to the sale rules governing every other product. Automotive and clothes manufacturers don't care about this sort of thing, but gaming has just gotten itself into a spiral of DLC and pre-order bonuses and special editions and multiplayer codes, it's like a race to see how much money they can get out of their players before they start to wake up to themselves. I refuse to believe that game developers are continuously struggling on the edge of existence, oh, they need that extra dollar just to put food on the table.

What's more, even if it is a problem, which it isn't, if the retail prices were reasonable, I'm sure people would buy the game new. As it is, the larger franchises have their hype to keep the buyers buying, but even unknown and not necessarily cutting-edge games are shooting for the same price range, and I think it's ridiculous. So you end up with large games selling by the boatload regardless of their price, and smaller games overestimating their quality and losing customers.

Probably my most favourite point, I have quite a few gaming friends, and not a single one of us keeps all our games. But perhaps more intriguing, not a single one of us keeps the money from a used game sale very long; it goes almost straight in to buying new games. And that helps the industry, because if it didn't happen, I would probably buy 1 game a year, and maybe get one for Christmas and my birthday as well. So that's a pitiful three sales of games amongst a whole family. Good luck turning a profit out of that.

Last but not least, SKYRIM. A single player game that outlasts most multiplayer ones tenfold. Maybe if people thought about making their single player games interesting, people would buy them. 0_0

Senare:

Of course piracy is not the same as buying a used game in general. But when viewed in the context of financial support towards the ones who made the game possible they are interchangeable. So if I all I care about is to support the developer (and new games) then they are equally bad options.

In a similar way, paying for someone's relative to go on a holiday for 5 weeks is the same as kidnapping them for an equal amount of time, provided they are returned at the end and the 'someone' doesn't know.

RoseArch:
Protip: Don't sell games at sixty bucks, then.

Worgen:
Ironically its the high price of games that make for such a large used game market.

I call bollocks. Even if the price of games is low, you're never going to stop people that are going to go for the lower, used price. Had someone or some company that actually gave back to the developer for used sales killed GameStop in its early years, we might not be in this mess. It's like how the introduction of nuclear weapons put the world in a proverbial Mexican standoff, except the game publishers are disarmed, and except for digital distribution, there's little developers can actually do to defend themselves against GameStop, who for all their inaction and deliberate blindness in this matter, are killing the financial gains of publishers, and ultimately, the industry, little by little.

Grenge Di Origin:

RoseArch:
Protip: Don't sell games at sixty bucks, then.

Worgen:
Ironically its the high price of games that make for such a large used game market.

I call bollocks. Even if the price of games is low, you're never going to stop people that are going to go for the lower, used price. Had someone or some company that actually gave back to the developer for used sales killed GameStop in its early years, we might not be in this mess. It's like how the introduction of nuclear weapons put the world in a proverbial Mexican standoff, except the game publishers are disarmed, and except for digital distribution, there's little developers can actually do to defend themselves against GameStop, who for all their inaction and deliberate blindness in this matter, are killing the financial gains of publishers, and ultimately, the industry, little by little.

Bupkis, bupkis I say. Games have always been priced very high compared to most media but they are also one of the most sought after forms of entertainment, there is a market for used movies and such but its much smaller, partly because its not hard to find a bluray movie for only 10 bucks and when a movie only costs 10 bucks you probably aren't going to get more then a dollar or two for it used from a store. But if you trade in a game after beating it shortly after it comes out then you could be looking at getting 30-40 bucks for that game and that is more then enough to justify selling it back, plus games are getting more and more expendable, back in the day if you didn't have the box or booklet for a game that would take 5-10 dollars off the trade in price but now, really the only thing you get with a game is a disk, you'r saves are linked to your system so the value of the game is only worth as much as the disk, it makes more sense to just trade in a game and if you really liked it to just buy it back later once it gets cheap.

The subject of this thread: rich, greedy corporations getting mad that people are doing what's best for the people, and not for them.

Protip: just make a game people don't want to sell, like bathesda has been telling you works just fine for them. I've never sold a game I own, because I don't buy games I want to play once.

*deleted*

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