BioWare "Falsely Advertised" Mass Effect 3

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AnarchistAbe:
Jokes on the gamers! Now, we'll get the same exact ending to every fucking game. The safe, happy ending that nobody has grounds to complain about. Thank you, "retakers". Thank you for your entitled douchebaggery.

Alright, firstly, if you do not understand the word that is Entitled or Entitlement and any variation there of then you should not use it in any circumstance. I am entitled to a product that is fit-for-purpose, thus if I am un-happy with it I am entitled to complain or return the product for compensation. Being entitled is not a insult due to the way the word can be used is almost always in a way of stating a right of a person.

Secondly, if you do not understand what you are arguing against, don't even argue about it. The Retake Mass Effect's movement's goal from the very start was to get Bioware to make a DLC, free or not to make the ending less shitty or to have more closure, not to change it to where everybody lives happily ever after.

As many have pointed out, the ending makes no sense. If we want to get into a very much deeper look at it, in order for Joker to escape the planet with Shephard's teammates who were with him no less then ten minutes earlier, he would have to travel down, convince them to come with him and then leave. Not only would this be completely outside of the character's set motives, no one on the crew would willingly Shepard behind. Mind you this is within a span of ten minutes until you can make your choice. I'm not sure how fast that ship can go but simply convincing them to follow would take something like twenty minutes at least not counting time dodging and / or killing reapers.

Next one is that people randomly appear on the citadel that couldn't have possibly gotten there without Shephard meeting them first before reaching their desired destination.

Last is the God-Child who was never hinted at earlier in the series or even the same game that essentially hands you a Deus Ex Machinima and also rips the options straight from Deus Ex.

Honestly, you don't know enough to comment if you only know what Bob Chapman has been saying for the past few episodes. You come off as someone who doesn't know the situation at all and doesn't even know what word he is using as a insult.

If you wanted better grounds for what you were saying you could have very easily picked up a valuable argument from the internet. The best one I came across was very shallow and essentially just saying that corporations can do no wrong.

In the future, evaluate your points to actually suit what you dislike. This isn't something of personal taste as it is something is being pointed out as shoddy and thousands agree, while thousands jump in front of bullets to protect the publisher from any hate, despite being simultaneously fucked by the publisher in many different aspects. Why couldn't you have made a sensible arguement like Mr or Mrs VMK did?

VMK:
I think Bioware should just stop making RPG games and start making sport-sims and multiplayer FPSes. At least fans of those games are not as rage-filled as RPG ones, and are more grateful.
And it will bring them more money.

I understand that they could have done it better. I understand that everyone (including me) wanted to see the impact of their actions. But this is just ridiculous. Such ammount of rage and complaints is but a tantrum. Legal complaint? Are you kidding me?!

They [Bioware]have already said, that they, well, "feel us" (On this I trust Bioware); They have already stated that they are making an Extended cut DLC (which, I assure You, will be free: EA won't dare make us pay for it after the whole scandal).
What else do you want? You want them to buy your copies from you and replace it with the "right" ones for free? Maybe a fellatio from Ray Muzyka himself, just for the sake of it?

You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

Thank you for this for actually providing a little bit of sense on this. Although its completely different between Mass Effect and Star Wars. In Star Wars the scene was perfectly fine and was ultimately hypocritical of George Lucas since he himself preached about the evils of allowing people to change their works. In Mass Effect its a terrible scene that, overall is just not good enough to pass any inspection.

----------------------------------------------------

I called this a while ago that Mass Effect's scandal could very well be brought up with legal action if need be. I wouldn't blame anyone if they did take legal action against Mass Effect 3, due to this actually being truth now, apparently. It has nothing to do with what fans want when it comes to legal shit, it is about what is legal and not illegal, and this just so happens to fall off into the illegal category.

irishda:

I'm going to write two sentences. One is my life/death metaphor; the other is the point I'm trying to make. Let's see where the overlap is.

When you die, regardless of the fact that everyone's state is exactly the same (dead), your life's story is not defined solely by the end result of that life (i.e. you being dead) because of the many different actions or events in your life.
When the game ends, regardless of the fact that there are only three possible endings, the story is not defined solely by those three endings because of the many different actions and decisions the player made in the game.

Endings can very much make or break a story (like that movie Warrior fucking sucks because of those last five minutes), but the quality of the story is not what I'm arguing for. I'm arguing that even though a lot of people have the same endings to their Mass Effect stories, not everyone has the same story, which is exactly why their decisions and choices still mattered even after the ending.

Absolutely. I would be in agreement that very few people had the exact same story. For that extent, the choices mattered.

I am disappointed with Mass Effect 3 for more than the ending. If the ending was adequate I would have just shrugged it off. The Rachni queen was one place where the anticipation was high and a dudd was given. I liked part of ME3, and I disliked parts of ME3. Regardless of the ending for some reason I was hating the London boards.

Problem is after being disappointed with DA2, and ME3 building anticipation and not following through for many people, I am not sure if Bioware stories are worth investing in anymore. That is all plain and simple.

if Bioware changes their ending, that is great. If they don't I have not given it much thought except for these threads. My faith in them as a consumer however is shaken. Where before I looked to Bioware for the genre games I can really get into, Now they are becoming a company that makes 'just another' RPG.

Brad Shepard:

AnarchistAbe:

dogstile:
No, they're getting sued for false advertising, not because the ending sucked (even though it did) but because the choices that you had at the ending achieved nothing. Hell, is it even possible to fail mass effect 3? If I rushed through the game and didn't collect war assets, picking the worst choices, I would still beat the reapers.

There wasn't meaningful choices. At all.

Do you REALLY feel they deserved this? Games marketing ALWAYS promises more than the game could deliver. Why is Bioware being singled out?

Because they lied? They promised so much, like us not getting a A B C choice ending, and that's what we got, we got promised that our choices mattered, they did not, there going down the road that capcom has been on for years, and this is coming from a Mass Effect fan, if you cant tell by my Screen Name.

Exactly. When you GIVE SPECIFIC DETAILS about a product, and those SPECIFIC DETAILS ARE INCORRECT it's called FALSE ADVERTISING.

Project Director Casey Hudson:
"Yeah, and I'd say much more so, because we have the ability to build
the endings out in a way that we don't have to worry about eventually
tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end
with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At
this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made
as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way
like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a
lot more sophistication and variety in them."

...do they now? Because what we were given is exactly, EXACTLY what this entire blurb said we were specifically NOT getting. This, children, is false advertising, and the BBB is correct in their statement.

Aprilgold:

VMK:
You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

I'm suing Disney! It is NOT the happiest place on earth. Who's with me? Let's report them to the BBB!!! Down with their tyrannical empire of lies!!!!

AnarchistAbe:

Aprilgold:

VMK:
You played the game, you enjoyed it until the very end, which they will fix.
So stop it. Just stop it. This is literally crazy. It is as if litlle spoiled kid got a fresh, home-made chocolate cookle from his/her grandma, and saw a bit of raw dough on the side:
-UWWAAAAAAAAAAHH!!!!!!! This cookie is bad!!!!
-Honey, please calm down, grandma will fix it.
-No!You messed it up! I hate you!- screamed the child, while eating one cookie after another, for they were delicious, every single one of them. Exept for the one with the dough.

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

I'm suing Disney! It is NOT the happiest place on earth. Who's with me? Let's report them to the BBB!!! Down with their tyrannical empire of lies!!!!

Man your missing points all over the place today. You alright man? Eating healthy and all the water you need is being drank?

I never said Mass Effect couldn't have a depressing ending, or that every ending had to be depressing, but your just widely shouting out accusations. Disney can be as happy as long as it wants, because they are good at making movies, Mass Effect can be as grim as it wants, but if its written horribly then its bad. I guess its like comparing a pixar movie to what a kid wrote in english class in Gradeschool. Obviously Pixar is going to be better in every way to that little kid. Pointing out that the kid should try again isn't like telling Pixar to remake a movie.

Damn, Bioware really fucked themselves over by not making several endings to a game that would sell millions. The only ending was utter shit to top it all off. Bioware deserves the flak to be honest. If there was only one ending and it wasn't a load of horseshit then maybe people wouldn't be AS mad.

Aprilgold:
Man your missing points all over the place today. You alright man? Eating healthy and all the water you need is being drank?

I never said Mass Effect couldn't have a depressing ending, or that every ending had to be depressing, but your just widely shouting out accusations. Disney can be as happy as long as it wants, because they are good at making movies, Mass Effect can be as grim as it wants, but if its written horribly then its bad. I guess its like comparing a pixar movie to what a kid wrote in english class in Gradeschool. Obviously Pixar is going to be better in every way to that little kid. Pointing out that the kid should try again isn't like telling Pixar to remake a movie.

And, I'm saying that DisneyLAND advertises itsself as the "happiest place on earth". I don't think it is. I'm going to report them to the BBB, because that is obviously false advertising. No?

Also, no need for personal insults. Thanks.

AnarchistAbe:

Aprilgold:
Man your missing points all over the place today. You alright man? Eating healthy and all the water you need is being drank?

I never said Mass Effect couldn't have a depressing ending, or that every ending had to be depressing, but your just widely shouting out accusations. Disney can be as happy as long as it wants, because they are good at making movies, Mass Effect can be as grim as it wants, but if its written horribly then its bad. I guess its like comparing a pixar movie to what a kid wrote in english class in Gradeschool. Obviously Pixar is going to be better in every way to that little kid. Pointing out that the kid should try again isn't like telling Pixar to remake a movie.

And, I'm saying that DisneyLAND advertises itsself as the "happiest place on earth". I don't think it is. I'm going to report them to the BBB, because that is obviously false advertising. No?

Also, no need for personal insults. Thanks.

Okay, well what if the director of Disneyland came out with a specific press release and told you you'd get things for coming to a park, and that turned out to be blatently incorrect? That WOULD be false advertising. See quote by Project Director of Mass Effect 3 above.

AnarchistAbe:

Aprilgold:
Man your missing points all over the place today. You alright man? Eating healthy and all the water you need is being drank?

I never said Mass Effect couldn't have a depressing ending, or that every ending had to be depressing, but your just widely shouting out accusations. Disney can be as happy as long as it wants, because they are good at making movies, Mass Effect can be as grim as it wants, but if its written horribly then its bad. I guess its like comparing a pixar movie to what a kid wrote in english class in Gradeschool. Obviously Pixar is going to be better in every way to that little kid. Pointing out that the kid should try again isn't like telling Pixar to remake a movie.

And, I'm saying that DisneyLAND advertises itsself as the "happiest place on earth". I don't think it is. I'm going to report them to the BBB, because that is obviously false advertising. No?

Also, no need for personal insults. Thanks.

Caring about your personal health is now a insult?

Opinions is different then legal actions, I covered this in my first reply. A opinion can not be the only force behind a lawsuit, there has to be something legal behind it. Disagreeing with something does not entitle you to gain money from a lawsuit. Disney Land, if they promised to give you many items such as a ton of Mickey Mouse Dolls if you came on a specific day, publicly and they did not do so then that could very well be false advertising, since you would have most likely not gone there otherwise.

You have so little understanding of everything that your either need to gain a more healthy appetite and grab a good book or your current age has made you ignorant to other things except for your own opinion. My suggestion is to understand what your arguing before you argue it, since you don't even know what qualifies as false advertising.

tangoprime:

Okay, well what if the director of Disneyland came out with a specific press release and told you you'd get things for coming to a park, and that turned out to be blatently incorrect? That WOULD be false advertising. See quote by Project Director of Mass Effect 3 above.

I was promised a good time. I did not have it.

AnarchistAbe:

tangoprime:

Okay, well what if the director of Disneyland came out with a specific press release and told you you'd get things for coming to a park, and that turned out to be blatently incorrect? That WOULD be false advertising. See quote by Project Director of Mass Effect 3 above.

I was promised a good time. I did not have it.

Okay, well if you can't comprehend the argument, it's not my fault.
Very specific objective things mentioned about a product that are specifically not delivered is different than all the movie advertisements that say it's the best movie of the summer, as that's subjective.

No matter if you still don't understand this line of reasoning, because the BBB does. Good luck with your complaint against Disneyland.

tangoprime:

AnarchistAbe:

tangoprime:

Okay, well what if the director of Disneyland came out with a specific press release and told you you'd get things for coming to a park, and that turned out to be blatently incorrect? That WOULD be false advertising. See quote by Project Director of Mass Effect 3 above.

I was promised a good time. I did not have it.

Okay, well if you can't comprehend the argument, it's not my fault.
Very specific objective things mentioned about a product that are specifically not delivered is different than all the movie advertisements that say it's the best movie of the summer, as that's subjective.

No matter if you still don't understand this line of reasoning, because the BBB does. Good luck with your complaint against Disneyland.

You're trying to discredit me, but you do not understand either. We are talking about the SAME THING. Seriously. You can bitch all you want, but I promise you that your point is just as ridiculous as mine.

I'm just going to nail down a few points...

sravankb:
I haven't posted on the Escapist in a while, and thank God I continued to stay off this place.

This shit depresses me to no end. Good job, guys. You've single handedly made us gamers look like a bunch of whiny brats.

You know how every week or so, we hear of a woman/man using 911 because a fast food place wouldn't refund their cheeseburger because they forgot to take the tomato's off? Is that one person the poster child of everybody who then complains to the store on a wrong order? No? Yes a few people went over board.. But that in no way makes every body else look like whiny brats. The really few who really whined, do not even make for the small percentage of people who have spoken up, who still make up a small percentage of people who even care.

So the 1%, is not the 99%.

There's criticism, and then there's whining.

If by whining you mean using or voice of our concerns to a company, that we expected to do better?
So let me guess, you have never "whined" in your life; and anytime you don't get what you order you only state "I expect next time that you get it right" instead of them fixing it then and there? Because guess what, anytime you want an immediate fix, by your words, its "whining".

Topping that off with attempting to ruin a company just fucking draws the line.

So if a company no longer delivers on its promise on goods, we should just say thats perfectly fucking ok that they don't deliver, because its a bad that that a company that doesn't deliver on what they goes out of business.
Companies that make crappy produces and don't fix it go out of business. If BioWare no longer wishes to provide games that players feel value of playing, then why should we continue to support them? They no longer provide a value, we find somebody else who does.

Thats the nature of business; if a restaurant continued so serve you undercooked/cold food (thats expected to be warm). Would you continue to eat there, or would you go somewhere else that served you well cooked / warm food? You still must love bad food, because oh no.. because it would be bad if that restaurant goes out of business.

Players are only stating if BioWare can't deliver on good stories, then they have no reason to continue to buy their games (because mostly, game play wasn't great, but you played BioWare games for the mostly above average game story -- RPG players anyways).

If people just said that the ending wasn't good, sure, that's fine. That's just expressing your opinion, which you have every right to do. What makes people dumb is an over exaggeration of the problem. You haven't been cheated here, you just didn't like a small aspect of the game (namely, the 10 minute ending of a 25 - 30 hour game).

Its a ENDING of a trilogy. Just not a 25-30 hour game, but for most people 120 hours. And just not one 120 hours, normally most people had 2-5 Shepard's; each with major differences. Then end result is 0 of those choices matter. Only the score of that choice matters, which can be completely over written by MP. You don't invest 120 hours into something, to let somebody else just stomp all over it and you go "oh lol.. you got me good... ha haa.. this is pure crap.. but oh well.. good show, good show. Lets do it AGAIN!".

Here's a tip, free of charge - if you don't like the game, don't support Bioware in the future.

Thats what we are doing, but we are telling them, "Hey, Fix this, or we won't support you in the future" but wait.. isn't supporting them in the future also risk the chance of ruining a company.. I mean, if enough people don't support them.. then they get shut down.

Hypocrite much?

Plus, most of you guys need to take a step back and say this to yourself - "it's just a game". It seems heavily counterproductive to spend this much time being pissed off at an entertainment product.

So you love all music, all movies, all books and haven't criticize one single aspect of "personal" entertainment, ever?

Yes some people have taken this one issue a little over-board; but those crazy few is not EVERYBODY; nor even "most".

As for the forums, I'm sure no one here cares - but I'm leaving this place for good. Fuck all this negativity and cynicism and wannabe-pessimistic bullshit. I'm just gonna be here to see some weekly videos and the MLP group.

As for The Escapist - "The last bastion of intelligence", my ass. The worst kind of idiots are the ones who think they're smart.

Sounds like you need a hug. Doesn't MLP teach tolerance? Haven't you learned anything from MLP? Sounds like you need to rewatch all of MLP.. 20x. You have a cold cold heart.

Mournblade94:

VMK:

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

MovieBob is quite often wrong, or just whining. He is a film critic. His analysis is usually less than scientific.

The difference is George Lucas did not botch his original work. Bioware Botched their original work.

yes they are changing their art for customers who PAY money for their art. Their art was a success visually. The writing of Mass Effect 3 was sub par.

If Bioware cannot write good endings (as evidenced by Dragon Age II, and Mass Effect 3) then I will not PAY money for their art. I won't participate in their art. I am not entitled to a good ending. If I don't get good endings I will cease being a bioware customer. If all the 'retake mass effect fans' feel the same way then THEY will stop being a bioware customer. This will cause Bioware to lose money. In turn they will then realize they have to make the art the customer wants. I am OK with this arrangement.

This is how many people who are upset over the ending feel. The mass effect 3 ending Ruined the otherwise good art. Therefore as a customer I have lost faith in Bioware.

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

AnarchistAbe:

tangoprime:

AnarchistAbe:

I was promised a good time. I did not have it.

Okay, well if you can't comprehend the argument, it's not my fault.
Very specific objective things mentioned about a product that are specifically not delivered is different than all the movie advertisements that say it's the best movie of the summer, as that's subjective.

No matter if you still don't understand this line of reasoning, because the BBB does. Good luck with your complaint against Disneyland.

You're trying to discredit me, but you do not understand either. We are talking about the SAME THING. Seriously. You can bitch all you want, but I promise you that your point is just as ridiculous as mine.

How so? Disneyland said it was the happiest place on earth and I wasn't happy =/= valid complaint against Disneyland to the BBB. Whereas "Disneyland press release indicates I'd get a day pass and get a 2nd free and when I bought my day pass I didn't get a second free" WOULD be a valid business complaint.

Again- see my earlier post, there were specifics mentioned during the advertising cycle by the project director which turned out to be blatantly and unequivocally incorrect. Also valid product complaint =/= bitching.

tangoprime:

AnarchistAbe:

tangoprime:

Okay, well if you can't comprehend the argument, it's not my fault.
Very specific objective things mentioned about a product that are specifically not delivered is different than all the movie advertisements that say it's the best movie of the summer, as that's subjective.

No matter if you still don't understand this line of reasoning, because the BBB does. Good luck with your complaint against Disneyland.

You're trying to discredit me, but you do not understand either. We are talking about the SAME THING. Seriously. You can bitch all you want, but I promise you that your point is just as ridiculous as mine.

How so? Disneyland said it was the happiest place on earth and I wasn't happy =/= valid complaint against Disneyland to the BBB. Whereas "Disneyland press release indicates I'd get a day pass and get a 2nd free and when I bought my day pass I didn't get a second free" WOULD be a valid business complaint.

Again- see my earlier post, there were specifics mentioned during the advertising cycle by the project director which turned out to be blatantly and unequivocally incorrect. Also valid product complaint =/= bitching.

If I was promised these things MONTHS before DisneyLand was built, I would agree. You are trying to hold them to something they had intended to and WANTED to build. Time and budget didn't allow them to. Maybe even the tech. And now you want this awesome company, who made a franchise people obviously love, to have this stain on their record? Maybe a little selfish? Maybe?

Sutter Cane:

Mournblade94:

VMK:

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

MovieBob is quite often wrong, or just whining. He is a film critic. His analysis is usually less than scientific.

The difference is George Lucas did not botch his original work. Bioware Botched their original work.

yes they are changing their art for customers who PAY money for their art. Their art was a success visually. The writing of Mass Effect 3 was sub par.

If Bioware cannot write good endings (as evidenced by Dragon Age II, and Mass Effect 3) then I will not PAY money for their art. I won't participate in their art. I am not entitled to a good ending. If I don't get good endings I will cease being a bioware customer. If all the 'retake mass effect fans' feel the same way then THEY will stop being a bioware customer. This will cause Bioware to lose money. In turn they will then realize they have to make the art the customer wants. I am OK with this arrangement.

This is how many people who are upset over the ending feel. The mass effect 3 ending Ruined the otherwise good art. Therefore as a customer I have lost faith in Bioware.

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

Because it seems like you (like MovieBob) have missed the point, here's something to clear it up:

Mass Effect is a game series, sold to gamers on promises of what the product will be. These promises constitute as advertising, allowing us to buy the product based on this advertorial promises. They are not delivered and the game, as it stands, is unlike the content that we were told it was in an attempt to make us buy said product. Similar to having been advertised a large, well done steak and instead delivered a small, rare slab of it. You ask for this product to be changed.

Star Wars is a film. It was created by a number of people, of which, ironically, Lucas was on a relatively lower ladder. The majority of the masterful work was created in the editing room, after quite a few disastrous screenings. The film was released. It found an audience. The director held speeches about how art now belongs to the public. That is shouldn't be messed with. Years pass, Lucas goes and tampers with the original material, doing away with traces of the original work as extensively as he can. Altering history and the art that he claimed belonged to the public. The public cries out; don't mess with that, it's not broken. Or mess with it, fine, but leave us the originals. Lucas does not comply, but continues his alterations further - into the domain of films that are not even directed by him, thus going further against his previous statements. Again, the public calls him out on it.

Better now? Notice how such actions are not in fact against each other in the slightest, but actually follow a very similar logic?

Sutter Cane:

Mournblade94:

VMK:

P.S. Quoting I don't remember who, but probably MovieBob: "You want Bioware to make with ME the same thing you hate George Lucas for doing with Star Wars."

MovieBob is quite often wrong, or just whining. He is a film critic. His analysis is usually less than scientific.

The difference is George Lucas did not botch his original work. Bioware Botched their original work.

yes they are changing their art for customers who PAY money for their art. Their art was a success visually. The writing of Mass Effect 3 was sub par.

If Bioware cannot write good endings (as evidenced by Dragon Age II, and Mass Effect 3) then I will not PAY money for their art. I won't participate in their art. I am not entitled to a good ending. If I don't get good endings I will cease being a bioware customer. If all the 'retake mass effect fans' feel the same way then THEY will stop being a bioware customer. This will cause Bioware to lose money. In turn they will then realize they have to make the art the customer wants. I am OK with this arrangement.

This is how many people who are upset over the ending feel. The mass effect 3 ending Ruined the otherwise good art. Therefore as a customer I have lost faith in Bioware.

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

Correct.

I was going to post about lucas realizing art belongs to the public but the previous poster covered that.

I am saying changing the Greedo han solo exchange was wrong. it was already fine as is, and if you notice it does not look right in the new rendition. It made the work worse. It looks unnatural.

Changing the mass effect ending would be fine because the writers did a half job. It was botched.

It is easy to apply to the rest of the world. If a significant amount of customers were unsatisfied with a company's commercial art, the company risks sales in the future. Businesses have figured that out ages ago. See easy answer.

Yes people should be forced to regard me as the final arbiter of what is good and what is not.

Mournblade94:

Sutter Cane:

Mournblade94:

MovieBob is quite often wrong, or just whining. He is a film critic. His analysis is usually less than scientific.

The difference is George Lucas did not botch his original work. Bioware Botched their original work.

yes they are changing their art for customers who PAY money for their art. Their art was a success visually. The writing of Mass Effect 3 was sub par.

If Bioware cannot write good endings (as evidenced by Dragon Age II, and Mass Effect 3) then I will not PAY money for their art. I won't participate in their art. I am not entitled to a good ending. If I don't get good endings I will cease being a bioware customer. If all the 'retake mass effect fans' feel the same way then THEY will stop being a bioware customer. This will cause Bioware to lose money. In turn they will then realize they have to make the art the customer wants. I am OK with this arrangement.

This is how many people who are upset over the ending feel. The mass effect 3 ending Ruined the otherwise good art. Therefore as a customer I have lost faith in Bioware.

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

Correct.

I was going to post about lucas realizing art belongs to the public but the previous poster covered that.

I am saying changing the Greedo han solo exchange was wrong. it was already fine as is, and if you notice it does not look right in the new rendition. It made the work worse. It looks unnatural.

Changing the mass effect ending would be fine because the writers did a half job. It was botched.

Why am I saying that? Because the world is not black and white. What applies to one case does not apply to the other.

It is easy to apply to the rest of the world. If a significant amount of customers were unsatisfied with a company's commercial art, the company risks sales in the future. Businesses have figured that out ages ago. See easy answer.

Yes people should be forced to regard me as the final arbiter of what is good and what is not.

Sweet Jesus tap dancing Christ people it's just a video game.

Bioware ain't Burger King, you can't always have it your way..

I went out and got all three editions and play them just to see what the fuss is all about..

And you want to know what I have come to about it? I don't have a single issue with the way they ended the game.

Why?

IT'S THEIR GAME!

That's how they wanted to end it.

If you thought the end sucks well ok thats your opinion and many of you have made more than enough stink about it. Seriously its time to move on.

SpiderJerusalem:

Sutter Cane:

Mournblade94:

MovieBob is quite often wrong, or just whining. He is a film critic. His analysis is usually less than scientific.

The difference is George Lucas did not botch his original work. Bioware Botched their original work.

yes they are changing their art for customers who PAY money for their art. Their art was a success visually. The writing of Mass Effect 3 was sub par.

If Bioware cannot write good endings (as evidenced by Dragon Age II, and Mass Effect 3) then I will not PAY money for their art. I won't participate in their art. I am not entitled to a good ending. If I don't get good endings I will cease being a bioware customer. If all the 'retake mass effect fans' feel the same way then THEY will stop being a bioware customer. This will cause Bioware to lose money. In turn they will then realize they have to make the art the customer wants. I am OK with this arrangement.

This is how many people who are upset over the ending feel. The mass effect 3 ending Ruined the otherwise good art. Therefore as a customer I have lost faith in Bioware.

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

Because it seems like you (like MovieBob) have missed the point, here's something to clear it up:

Mass Effect is a game series, sold to gamers on promises of what the product will be. These promises constitute as advertising, allowing us to buy the product based on this advertorial promises. They are not delivered and the game, as it stands, is unlike the content that we were told it was in an attempt to make us buy said product. Similar to having been advertised a large, well done steak and instead delivered a small, rare slab of it. You ask for this product to be changed.

Star Wars is a film. It was created by a number of people, of which, ironically, Lucas was on a relatively lower ladder. The majority of the masterful work was created in the editing room, after quite a few disastrous screenings. The film was released. It found an audience. The director held speeches about how art now belongs to the public. That is shouldn't be messed with. Years pass, Lucas goes and tampers with the original material, doing away with traces of the original work as extensively as he can. Altering history and the art that he claimed belonged to the public. The public cries out; don't mess with that, it's not broken. Or mess with it, fine, but leave us the originals. Lucas does not comply, but continues his alterations further - into the domain of films that are not even directed by him, thus going further against his previous statements. Again, the public calls him out on it.

Better now? Notice how such actions are not in fact against each other in the slightest, but actually follow a very similar logic?

I fail to see a significant difference, as both are works of art. I'm not even saying that its wrong for bioware to change the ending, I'm just asking for a little consistency is all. Do you think it should be ok for an artist or groups of artists go go back and alter a creative work after its release to attempt to improve it?

If its ok to do so, then lucas has the right to continue to change star wars in any way he sees fit, no matter how much it seemingly damages the film, if its not ok, then bioware should have stuck with the original shitty ending.

Also just fir the record, I support bioware doing the extended ending. In fact my position before they announced it kinda fell in between the two extremes of the argument over changing the ending, which was "If bioware feels that a changed ending would improve the ending, then they should go right ahead and change it, but if they are happy with the released ending, they are not morally obligated to change it."

Sutter Cane:

SpiderJerusalem:

Sutter Cane:

So you're saying that in one situation changing the work is worng, but in the other it's perfectly ok, simply because YOU PERSONALLY DISLIKE the original work in ME's case? wut? How do we apply that to the rest of the world? Should everyone be forced to regard you (or any other individual person really), as the sole arbiter of what is good and what is not?

Because it seems like you (like MovieBob) have missed the point, here's something to clear it up:

Mass Effect is a game series, sold to gamers on promises of what the product will be. These promises constitute as advertising, allowing us to buy the product based on this advertorial promises. They are not delivered and the game, as it stands, is unlike the content that we were told it was in an attempt to make us buy said product. Similar to having been advertised a large, well done steak and instead delivered a small, rare slab of it. You ask for this product to be changed.

Star Wars is a film. It was created by a number of people, of which, ironically, Lucas was on a relatively lower ladder. The majority of the masterful work was created in the editing room, after quite a few disastrous screenings. The film was released. It found an audience. The director held speeches about how art now belongs to the public. That is shouldn't be messed with. Years pass, Lucas goes and tampers with the original material, doing away with traces of the original work as extensively as he can. Altering history and the art that he claimed belonged to the public. The public cries out; don't mess with that, it's not broken. Or mess with it, fine, but leave us the originals. Lucas does not comply, but continues his alterations further - into the domain of films that are not even directed by him, thus going further against his previous statements. Again, the public calls him out on it.

Better now? Notice how such actions are not in fact against each other in the slightest, but actually follow a very similar logic?

I fail to see a significant difference, as both are works of art. I'm not even saying that its wrong for bioware to change the ending, I'm just asking for a little consistency is all. Do you think it should be ok for an artist or groups of artists go go back and alter a creative work after its release to attempt to improve it?

If its ok to do so, then lucas has the right to continue to change star wars in any way he sees fit, no matter how much it seemingly damages the film, if its not ok, then bioware should have stuck with the original shitty ending.

Also just fir the record, I support bioware doing the extended ending. In fact my position before they announced it kinda fell in between the two extremes of the argument over changing the ending, which was "If bioware feels that a changed ending would improve the ending, then they should go right ahead and change it, but if they are happy with the released ending, they are not morally obligated to change it."

Agh, it seems you still continue to miss the point.

Mass Effect - product, sold on promises of a specific nature. Not delivered. Consumer voices complaint that said product did not deliver on what was promised and thus should either be rectified or addressed in some form - or said consumer will not buy products from manufacturer in the future.

Star Wars - a work of art, finished and presented to the public. Over the years placed in the congressional library as a work of importance and cultural significance. Two decades later, one person goes to edit the film needlessly, adding changes that neither improve the product nor are asked for. Said individual has himself claimed on prior occasions that such a work is uncalled for, barbaric and should be frowned upon.

In both cases the public, the consumers, voice their concerns on promises that have been broken and stances that have been changed for no apparent reason and for the material that has been delivered to be faulty and unwanted.

But there's also the difference that games, while they may strive to be art, are above all a form of customer service, so promises to the gamers are paramount in order to keep that particular service going. To betray that, as the BBB has noted, is bad form and false advertising at best.

But film is an entirely different medium, and in the case of Star Wars, a look at what happens when one of the people involved in making the material goes back some decades later to tinker with a piece of art that has been ingrained in the public consciousness. It's a part of childhood for some, for others it's a landmark in film. What it once was is not what it is now, and to tinker with it and say "I'm fixing it" by making adjustments that could have been made already in the year that it was released and then removing the availability of the original product is a betrayal of the public's trust.

So in short, it's all about trust and both Bioware and Lucas have gone to some lengths to break that trust between creator and consumer.

Diana Kingston-Gabai:

Chosen_Chaos:
It's possible that developers will push out bland, generic stories in an attempt to avoid the kind of backlash that's happened with ME3, deciding that the risk isn't worth it.

It's equally possible that developers will take greater care in crafting their stories so that they don't fall apart at the climax - since that's what prompted the backlash in the first place.

True enough, but I suspect that many - if not most - dev teams will go with the path of least resistance, especially if their corporate overlords are starting to get impatient.

tangoprime:
...
Project Director Casey Hudson:
"Yeah, and I'd say much more so, because we have the ability to build
the endings out in a way that we don't have to worry about eventually
tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end
with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At
this point we're taking into account so many decisions that you've made
as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. It's not even in any way
like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings
there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a
lot more sophistication and variety in them."

...do they now? Because what we were given is exactly, EXACTLY what this entire blurb said we were specifically NOT getting. This, children, is false advertising, and the BBB is correct in their statement.

Yeah; how is a different colour applied to the explosion "variety", and how is it more "variety" than the endings of the last 2 games?

I feel that the BBB probably should take this further than just making a statement. Most advertising "enhances" the truth, however EA was just outright LYING!

Chosen_Chaos:
True enough, but I suspect that many - if not most - dev teams will go with the path of least resistance, especially if their corporate overlords are starting to get impatient.

One might argue that BioWare choosing the path of least resistance is exactly what started this whole mess to begin with. :)

So we're using technecalities now, are we? Fine. Two can play that game. The player did have their decision matter. It just was a desicion to choose which ending you want that look too similar to each other so it just happen to look like the endings had no sense of doing anything different.

Also, since you just need to figure out what to do to cause which ending all games with multiple endings are games with A,B,C endings so saying ME3 has mutliple endings, people that bought the game should have known better should not have believed Bioware because it is TECHNICALLY impossible to make not turn a multiple ending game into a A,B,C ending game.

Seriously that is the problem with the endings. If they just showed more of what happen to the universe in each ending then the angery fans will stop and everyone will be happy with the endings.

Captia: harp on

-_- I already did somewhere else.

Would you say that the Fable games are falsely advertised too?

Gatx:
Would you say that the Fable games are falsely advertised too?

I would. I remember Peter Molyneux claiming that in Fable 2 the world would be vastly different based on your choices and that another player could drop in via co-op and see a completely different world from their own.

"foregone conclusion" was my captcha, nice.

Hollywood has been falsely advertising that it's putting out good movies for years, why hasn't anybody filed an FTC complaint against them? They deserve it more.

Im so sick of people complaing about ME3 Im going to start the "shut up about ME3 movemnt"

WHO'S WITH ME?!

Very interesting, things could get really bad for EA here especially seeing as the people making the complaints have generally not taken the "clarification of the ending" offer as an actual solution and the fires have continued.

The BBB is not a goverment agency but it does have a lot of power, largely because of the organized pressure it can put on companies via their distributers, the information they release, and other things they can do. They have literally decimated businesses, including some pretty big ones in the past. Truthfully I am surprised they agreed with this since digital products/games are a bit outside of what they generally handle.

At the very least the expert opinion of the BBB is going to probably influance the FTC which CAN take action on these grounds assuming the guys bringing the complaints decide to referance this (and they would be stupid not to) the BBB being experts who have been around for a verrrry long time, and exist for exactly this kind of thing. This means EA might very well be getting slammed by some huge penelties, even if it takes a year or two for this to all be sorted out (the wheels of justice move slowly). That "lulzeworthy" legal complaint just grew a nasty pair of fangs, since the BBB does know this area of law and how it's supposed to work (it's their thing).

I'll also say that it remains to be seen what action the BBB is going to take, it can be slow, but I wouldn't be shocked if we wind up seeing a lot of retailers start pulling EA/Bioware products from their shelves, and perhaps even a drop in stock price if the BBB starts calling EA/Bioware a bunch of liars in their distributed literature (where they review companies and such).

Don't expect the sky to fall tomorrow, but the BBB tends to carry more weight for more people than say your typical complaint about something being "racially insensitive" or potentially "bigoted towards homosexuals" and other divisive issues. If the BBB decides to actually start blasting companies like Gamestop, Wal*Mart, Target, or various digital distributors for being crooks by helping push the products of crooks... rather than fight the trend and wind up losing in a case like this when other people notice the press, they are going to comply. It won't be played out entirely in public, but don't be surprised that if EA doesn't satisfy the ME3 "Line" at least enough to end the rage, if say some Christmas you have a hard time finding EA's newest releases on the shelves of major retailers.

The big issue here of course is what the BBB can do digitally. Generally speaking there isn't much they are going to do to EA's own platform (Origin), but it does mean that if EA decides it wants to release more through other platforms again, they might find companies like STEAM hardly waiting for them with open arms given that this is yet more baggage they bring with them.

Time will tell, but this is potentially a big deal, the BBB is one of the best allies you can have in something like this.

It's been said before, but I hope this will cool Peter Molyneux's jets. I'm all for game devs trying to be be visionary or innovative, but don't you tell me a single game will revolutionize the entire industry. Especially when your last games failed to do so.

I mean, Molyneux is a decent enough designer, but as a PR person? He needs to swap a couple superlatives and try and use a little thing called honesty, once in a while. I'm not expecting every other game that comes out to be the Second Coming of the Flying Spaghetti Monster; I'm just expecting every other game to be decent and simple fun.

*sighs* If only the shareholders were gamers... If only the big-heads at EA or Activision actually cared instead of expecting the next quarterly statement and predictions for the sales of the newest inflated AAA title, we'd maybe get decent products. Not only that, but it might decrease the industry's propensity to use hyperbole to sell its stuff.

You know what's killing me is that BioWare keeps saying "We're listening." in one breath and in the other "We completely disagree and stand by our product." over and over again. The subtext seems to me from those two statements they reuse is "We're listening to your complaining and are releasing extended cut so you might be quiet about this, even though we think our customers are wrong.". Which is simply insulting. I really don't understand why Bioware thinks to compromise their integrity is to give the fans what they want. Well if they keep that up they won't have as many fans to compromise their integrity over after this madness.

This whole discussion has been going on since the games release. This is no longer about the series and creators integrity but maintaining the brand image of Bioware which by anyones measure is suffering immensely from this whole debacle.

ALSO I wish you people would stop calling each other whiners and such, it's childish way of arguing any topic and only hurts your position in my opinion. For people just wanting it to end it inflames emotions and for people that defend bioware it only causes people that disagree with you to shut out the rest of things you say when you insult them in such a way, even IF you have a actual point.

Pyrian:
Well thank you, BBB.

Here's the thing, as I see it: We should not let companies get away with directly lying about the contents of their products. Period. Not for food, not for cars, and even not for video games.

Well that's the thing. We only let them get away with it with games.

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