Japan Ready To Ban "Gacha" Gameplay Pages PREV 1 2 3 NEXT | |
Because personal responsibility and parents actually raising their children is too hard, I guess. | |
that's like... EVERY game that uses a skill or experience system. | |
It's called "credit card application" and "lying about your age". You rank up huge debts and credit cards companies don't stop this because they know their parents will pay off the huge debts either willingly or by court order. I don't think the parents are seriously giving the money to their kids every month, the kid did it secretly for months and then once discovered the parents are paying interest on debts for many months or years. | |
Wow. And I thought "buy your way to victory" games like Farmville and its ilk were bad. But seriously people... if you're going to waste money on a prize with tiny odds of winning, buy a damn lottery ticket or three. Cheaper, and if you win you get something REAL, not just a silly virtual object that is worth nothing. | |
WindKnight is correct. The ME3 multiplayer packs do run on a gacha concept. The pricing may be different (ME3 packs can be bought with in game or real money currency, while many of the targeted Gacha games are real money only), but that is not what is being outlawed. What is being outlawed is a system were something like the following is going on: Gacha Set 1- 1% chance of pulling Special Super Armor Set Voucher A Each pull costs $2.50 to $3.00 or more of real money currency. Bring 1 each of Voucher to specific a NPC and get the Special Super Armor Set. | |
Oh, I meant cheap in value, not necessarily cheap in price.
I'd say my point still stands. Regardless of how or where the money is coming from, banning these "gacha" systems isn't the same as stopping these kids from being able to fraudulently rack up huge amounts of debt for their parents. It would seem to me that making the credit card companies liable for money spent by minors using credit cards that they shouldn't have been allowed to acquire would very rapidly encourage them to tighten up their policies about preventing that sort of behaviour. | |
I can't make it too much farther than this because my brain is having trouble accepting the fact that kids are spending hundreds to thousands of dollars monthly on online gaming. My brain can't accept the fact that so many children are spending that kind of money on anything, let alone online games. Are they all stealing their parents credit cards? Is everyone in Japan just rich?! I don't understand... Maybe they meant hundreds of thousands of yen? Still a very hefty sum but not out of the question? Edit: broke the quote somehow, sorry =p | |
I am becoming of the opinion that this kind of game design really needs to go: the coupling of Skinner-box gameplay with real-money transactions. You want to talk electronic crack-cocaine, that's exactly how you implement it. I don't have a clear opinion about the legality of it, that is, whether it should be made illegal, but I do have a clear opinion that the game community, as a whole, needs to shun this kind of game design completely and send a strong message to game companies that this kind of game design is not appropriate by refusing to ever buy or play such a game. Honestly, the entire Skinner-box design, as a whole, really needs to be removed from gaming. It's a cheap-ass, lazy way of creating compelling game design without creating any real depth or substance in the game. It's just bad design and bad form on the part of game companies, in my opinion. | |
Online gambling and children. Yeah, I can't possibly see what could go wrong there. Methinks its goes a bit beyond the "good parenting" category when these Gacha (essentially gambling) games are clearly being marketed directly at children to begin with.
Exactly. | |
The kids don't need a credit card. They are billed through their keitai. Remember, Japan is the land of the obsessive-compulsive collector. | |
It's late so I don't have time to do any deep searching so I can't verify my idea, what if these gacha games were a charge added to the phone bill, negating the need for ready access to a credit card in the first place? Edit: Ninja'd by Leadfinger | |
[Accidental double post] | |
That's not going to happen, the people that run the world are entirely in favour of operant conditioning of the masses. Pull that lever and be satisfied with what treats they might throw you. | |
And that's why we, as gamers, need to not buy into such a game design. Fortunately, Skinner-box game design seems to have one easily recognized property: gear, item, and wealth progression is heavily dependent on randomly generated loot. There's no real skill involved in progressing, only the amount of time you spend repeating the action. While it's not a guaranteed indicator, it's probably a pretty strong one. | |
I wasn't disputing the fact that it is a similar system at it's core. What i'm saying is that even though they're similar, the way me3 does it is almost infinitely more fair, almost to the point where you can't really compare them. For 1 you don't need to spend real money (removing the problem of people spend thousands on Gacha games) and 2 the % chance of getting something good is MUCH higher and 3 you don't need the entire set for it to actually be of use. More like Recruit pack 100% chance of getting a weapon or class (with 10% chance of getting weapon A, B, C etc or class A, B or C etc) The chance in me3 comes in which normal/uncommon/rare thing you will get. | |
This is what I would call progress. Even if a lot of people will probably be arguing about the suitability of these policies I think there is something much more important taking place. A government is actually aware and reacting to changes happenning in their country which makes japanese politicians quite less retarded than politicians of any country I could speak for. I've always had a degree of respect for japanese law and they haven't failed to impress me yet again. | |
so are they going to ban capsule toys as well?? That might as well be considers gambling since you are taking a chance to get limited edition figure from a machine based on luck and they only keep sets of figures of in-stock for a limited number of times. | |
Well good, that's gambling. Kids shouldn't be allowed to gamble. Duh. | |
Actually, you're not really limited in crates. From my understanding crates drop on a seperate timer from items themselves and don't have the limitation of 'only drop x number in y amount of time.' Not to mention that crates are incredibly cheap to get a hold of. You can trade a single scrap for 5 pretty easily. Since crates are something many people have plenty of just sitting around, you could likely even just ask. So it's not like they are available whenever someone wants one. It may be set where you only have a relatively small number every week, but they make it incredibly easy to get more when you want them.
My point. I believe you've missed it. Let me start out by saying that trying to make an arguement based on how enjoyable a game is and quoting Metacritic scores isn't a good way to make a point. Just because some, or even many, people like something doesn't mean everyone does. Some people are literally just in TF2 for the items. This is for any number of reasons. They look nice, you can trade them for games, etc. But that's unimportant because I wasn't talking about that at all. You didn't seem to grasp what I was speaking of before. My point hadn't been directed at the random drop system, nor at the store. It had been pointed at the crates. Those things many people get and never use. The ones you have to pay $2.50 every time you want to open one. And the ones that hold the ultra-cool looking hats that you can't get any other way other then trading, where they normally cause anywhere from about $30 to hundreds. And that's not an exaggeration. Try looking at how much people are buying a Stormy Storm Team Captain for. I just looked it up, and the standard Price Check for it seems to be AT LEAST $700 dollars. These are not items you can just buy from the store. The only way to get unusual hats besides trading, or even strange items if you want them (though those are very cheap to get, but it'd still take your standard play a weeks worth of item drops to get one), is to open up crates. Hence the type of system being discussed in the article. It's a lottery at it's most base form. Where you have a 1% chance of getting anything really worthwhile, and a tiny, tiny, tiny chance of actually getting the hat you want with the effect you want. The weapons and such do make a difference though. While it is well balanced, the thing about it is that different weapons work better for different playstyle that each individual has. Most don't play the spy the exact same way for example. Their goals are the same, but their methods are normally different. For one person, the dead ringer might be an amazing asset which helps them a lot... but they might not be able to get it without buying it from the store or risking the trade market, which is really not a fun place to be anymore. As I said, I agree that they are overall well-balanced to the game as a whole. But that doesn't mean having them or not having them changes how well a person will do. | |
Well I chose metacritics because how can you get a more objective measure of worth? Metacritic isn't good for distinguishing a 85% from a 92% but it is good from distinguishing a 90% game from a 50% game. I'm not using metacritic to indicate that is it "great" simply that it is not-shit. It functions as a game and I added the 2007 qualifier for how this was before any alternate items or random drops were implemented. I'm not saying EVERYONE likes TF2, I'm saying you can enjoy it just for the gameplay, the fragging and point capturing and so on. It isn't entirely dependent upon spending loads of money for a miniscule change of getting anything other than nothing as in Gacha games. All the other items add variety to what is an inherently good game for those who suits it's tastes. Give me any documented example of someone who logs onto TF2 just for the random drops of items and when they get then NEVER uses them. That would be "just there for the items" and I have to ask, what is the cost to them? It uses up their system memory running their program idling and takes up a valuable slot on servers but it doesn't cost them anything as not only does TF2 have no subscription fee, it doesn't cost a penny to get started. OK, you do have to put a minimum of £4 in you wallet to buy ANYTHING to increase the size of your inventory but that's hardly comparable to the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Hmm, the crates is interesting but the odds of what you find in every crate is listed. You know the odds and aren't lied to "oooh, if you're lucky - and you should be - you'll get it" http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Mann_Co._Supply_Crate Everything else you can get by random drop, the difference is the Strange Attribute, now that's only useful for gameplay, tracking kills and various other point contributions. Paying for a gameplay enhancement that does NOT give any unfair advantage... what is the problem? There is no chance you will pay and get NOTHING, you'll always get something but which? It's like a random sweet mix you buy with your friends, if you like the green ones and hate the red ones you don't have to buy another random mix, just trade sweets with your friends. What kind of person buys a dozen random sweets and only eats the 1/6th they like and discard the rest?!?!? Then there is the TRADING aspect. Say you open Crate #43, you want the Strange Shortstop but instead get the Strange Tribalman's Shiv. Well you didn't get something worthless, you can trade with someone who got the Strange shortstop who want the Strange Tribalman's Shiv. Yes, certain weapons suit certain playstyles, hence the trading system. That's how I got The Original (I like how the rocket fires straight down the crosshairs) I traded it with someone who didn't like playing soldier so I gave him one of my extra items from one of my less used classes. Trading to suit each's playstyle. Trade with your friends or if traing with strangers then enter into trading with reasonable terms and the right mindset like: ...be efficient.... ...and have a plan to trade with everyone you meet! | |
Alright, I'm going to start with the only place that matter since my original post was only about how the TF2 crate system can fall under the same 'Gacha' laws that are impacting these Japanese social games. It's not entirely based around those things. I understand that. But the central mechanic behind it could still be considered a large enough part where it could possibly be looked at when deciding what action to take with that law. My posts was not an attack on TF2, just making a comment that it can easily be considered similar when looking at the games this article actually talks about.
The problem with this logic is that, while an external source does give you the odds, the game itself only lists 'an exceedingly rare special item.' It does say exceedingly rare, but it doesn't really give the player any sort of idea how much of a chance they really have. Which is something I'm fairly confident you could do with most other Gacha-based systems. So you don't 'know the odds' if your someone new to the game. Now, for the rest of the post, just because I'm somewhat bored. I likely won't take it much past this post though because it's not really the point I was trying to make to begin with.
My point against that was that giving numbers which are based solely on the opinions of reviews is not really a good method of providing proof for someone when it's entirely based on opinion. It may not be dependant on that system where you are spending quite a lot for a very small chance at anything decent/worthwhile, but that system is there. That's not really a stab at the game as much as saying that it does have a similar, if less central, system in it's gameplay.
There are a lot of people who idle just to get items. Many of these people are traders who will never use them. They melt the weapons into scrap, and trade the hats to the highest bidder. I know this because I do it myself, as do many traders. You see, each hat is worth at least about a Refined. A refined is worth roughly $.60 last time I check. You normally get enough weapons if you don't get a hat to make about a refined, even if you have to scrap-bank. So the people who do this have no interest in the items themselves, only in selling them for either Steam games or straight cash. And you're right, it's not one person spending hundreds of thousands of dollars. But adding atogether the number of people who buys keys, not to mention having to put $5 (or four pounds judging by your post) in order to get a premium membership, the money put into it to have the better random drops and have the chance for the big items adds up quickly. Hell, I once saw a person with I believe 50 keys unbox 50 crates. He got one low-tier hat with a low-level effect and a bunch of stranges. The reason I mention this is because those 50 keys translate into $125 spent on keys for one person for the crate system alone. It might not sound like much, but I'm sure that Valve makes a LOT of money off keys.
Quick question: When did I ever mention this Gacha system giving anyone an unfair advantage? I have stated that it's there, because it is. But you're right, having a strange item doesn't make a lick of difference. That's why in terms of trading they're basically considered worthless before very long after release (a few exceptions being stranges from rare crates like #30). You're right that you never get nothing at all. Well, depending on your definition, you aren't getting anything because it's a virtual item, hence the law's problem with these social games instead of, say, Magic or Yugioh cards. But I agree you don't get nothing. But the value of what you get differs wildly depending on what you manage to draw.
If you manage to find someone who wants your Strange Shiv and has a Strange Shortstop. The problem is that stranges aren't all equally valueable. You might get lucky and find someone who has the item/s that you want, but what do you think the chances are that you'll find someone who has exactly what you want and wants exactly what you have? Now, you might have a friend who has something you want. Maybe they don't need and will trade you. But I've run into plenty of times when I've had something I've needed, my friend has had it, but he wouldn't trade it to me because he liked it and was still using it. I don't fault him for that of course. But it does mean that I had to delve into the trading areas for what I wanted and never managed to find one for a good deal. The better bet is to look for traders. That's why sites like tf2outpost exist. But the problem with that is that many people are asking for absurd items. Most won't take items for items. Many want metal, keys, Bills, buds, Max heads, etc. Things that are considered the basic 'currency' for the TF2 market. Now, most standard items are easy to get. Your run of the mill weapon will cost you 1 scrap most of the time. But when you get into harder to find items, then the cost begins to rise. As it should mind you. TF2 is one of the best examples of a free market, though Valve does have control over it to some degree (A good example of some traders getting screwed over is the Paper Hat ordeal). But this leads to the fact that a lot of people who go into trading without knowledge of what they're doing get ripped off pretty quickly. Someone might walk away happy they got standard hat x by trading the glowy one they didn't care for, but not realize the glowy one was worth about $60 and the one they got is worth about $.60. But to be clear about one thing, all of that doesn't matter to my original point. Those are problems with the trading system. And they are going to happen pretty much no matter what. People were trading stuff long before the actual trading system was in place. The problems of the trading system really don't influence my point on the crate system all that much. They are two seperate sections of the game with their own benefits and faults. | |
Yeah, actually when I saw the article I thought it was engrish. Kind of like "Geddan" as engrish for "Get down". | |
my friends, this is a world where adults are so ineffective that when children are spending thousands of their parents dollars EVERY MONTH, the government thinks the solution is to target the people who are exploiting the children, and not the dumbass parents who are so worthless as to be consistently robbed by their own kids. the fact that japan ever got to this point is hilarious. the fact that the government has to step in with a plan that completely misses the point is a fucking tragedy. oh man, the zombie apocalypse cant begin soon enough. | |
Nobody ever said it was the parent's money that was being spent. Those kids could be working hard to earn that money themselves, which in my opinion is even worse. | |
/shrug can't be helped. The fact that there was no law against mind-screwing players for money (level-treadmilling is a great example), and therefore unethical companies jumped on the concept to such an extent that it's now established as a predominant mechanic in MMOs, doesn't mean it's ok. Laws always lag behind innovation. | |
It's not an external source, it's Valve's Official Wiki, it's within the www.teamfortress.com domain that Valve owns. It's the De-facto game manual. I can't see how you'd spend any amount of money without going there to check everything out. Gacha and gambling casinos are all about keeping its odds secret and implying you have better odds than you actually do have.
Whatever, it was a throw away line, I've explained myself enough already. It's not "just a number" but a number that represents the opinions of over a dozen professional game critics in relation to other games, and that's a lot more relevant than my personal opinion.
You idle? But when you get the hats do you NEVER wear them in game? DO you just have the hats to have them and go immediately back the idling some more? Now if you are a trader in it for the money you aren't being exploited, you are the one exploiting Valve: filling up their servers and getting given valuable things (whether it is defined as goods or services) they can sell for cash or other games. It's money for free, I'm amazed the WaW gold farmers haven't moved in yet. Perhaps it's a matter of time. Hmm, pretty extreme example though, $125 worth of keys but if he'd put $125 into a slot machine or on the blackjack table (or Gacha) he could easily have walked away with absolutely NOTHING. But instead he has 50 items varying in price (by mann-co store price) as high as $4.99 such as the Liberty Launcher but with added value of being "Strange" and he knew the precise odds on every transaction if he cared to look. Remember, it's the OFFICIAL Wiki, not external, it's practically the Team Fortress 2 game manual. Do you have a list of all the items? It'd be very interesting to see if adding up their price (of what they are in Man-co store at time of crate drop), what that number adds up to. Anywhere close to $125 possibly? And they'd all of course have strange attribute that must add some value. See, this is where it is really distinct from casino gambling or Gacha, you put money in and you get SOMETHING out.
I mention gameplay balance just to head off the idea Valve is running a "Pay 2 win" model, the strange-weapons won't give an advantage against opponents. But it does have value beyond competitive advantage, and that is the personal pride of tracking your kills or buildings smashed in game. The law needn't be far behind, "virtual item" is analogous to channels on a TV service or some other access, you are paying for access to a service, not for an actual item. The law is well versed on right of ownership on goods and services.
Why not go in agreeing to trade like for like. Look at the mann-co store and any two items that are the same price should be a straight trade so Liberty Launcher wouldn't be traded with Loch n Load as one is much more expensive in Mann-co store and you don't have to get into an argument about TF2 tactics of which is more valuable, the store price settles that issue. Going into if without knowledge is a bad situation even if it's the other party as though you may make rich you make them mad and spoil the community. NEVER TRADE WITH ANYONE unless you both agree on what its mann-co store price is. Every time you trade with someone, insist they check out the OFFICIAL (responsibility of Valve) wiki for now and all future trades. ... Also you must impersonate this man throughout: | |
I want it banned everywhere Gacha is a f-ing a-hole tactic it usually works by play shiny Gacha collect useless items a though f and get this shiny game nearly game breaking item Z!! | |
It's endoursed and hosted by Valve, but the content is created and made by individuals. Now, most attempts at sabatoge would be met pretty quickly, as well as punished with a ban, but that also means that not all of the information will be 100% accurate all the time. Mind you, the wiki is a better source then many sites. And it's better then relying on individuals calculations of probablity, but in the end it's not perfect. By external I'd meant more along the lines that you have to access a source out of the game for the information. The chances aren't in the game, even though it wouldn't be difficult to put them there. It's obvious that people should look into things before spending money. But we both know that that isn't always (or normally if you ask me) the case of what happens.
Alright, I need to address a few things. The first is simple. You keep putting words in my mouth. I never said TF2 had a "Pay 2 Win" system or even implied it. I never said that Valve was 'exploiting' people using the crate system. Do I think it's the same, or at least similar, type of chance-based system that these Gacha systems run on? Of course. Do I think it's the exact same? No, because they aren't required to actually play the game or win. Does that mean it's not a Gacha system? No. Do I think that Valve is 'wrong' or 'evil' for using these systems? No. Do I think these systems need to go away? Not really. While I have seen people spending a lot on TF2 items, that's their choice. I don't think the government should step in unless it's a major problem as the social games mention have shown to be. For your question of 'do I ever wear them?' No, I don't. I have a number of hats I do wear. Namely my tower of hats and my Western Wear. Holding onto my dragonborn helmet because I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it. Most of the rest (which is right now a Copper's Hard Top) will be sold whenever I'll need some metal. But the biggest problem with your post is something that makes it obvious to me you haven't done much serious trading in TF2. Nobody really goes by the store prices. Nobody even goes close to the store prices for most items. The weapons you mentioned are worth five or so cents in terms of trading. Strange weapons are worth more, but normally don't go over about sixty cents. This is a better place to get an idea of what people use for trading prices on average: http://tf2spreadsheet.blogspot.com/ (when looking at it, keep in mind that refined are worth roughly 50-60 cents). The reason for this is availability. Many of the things you talked about are readily available to buy. You can get pretty much any standard weapon for a scrap without much trouble. And, looking at prices, most strange weapons are only going for a reclaimed now. That's because there are a lot of them. Weapons because they're dropped the most often, and stranges because there are a lot of people hunting the unusual hats since they can be worth a lot of money. Most of the stranges that are worth more are from the rare crates (crate #30 being very rare). Availability drives down the price so that neither is worth much. Hats, which are less common, are worth at least a refined if not bought from the store (if bought from the store and therefore uncraftable, they're only worth a couple of reclaimed) because a lot of people use them to craft other hats hoping to get more valuable ones. Availability is also the reason new items are worth a decent amount but their value quickly drops. | |
I've always associated Gatcha with Korean MMOs. | |
Looks like the same peopel that commented about bad parenting and whatnot when the US mom tried to do the same are now praising the goverment for doing exactly that in japan. Hypocracy much? | |
Perhaps it is because many of the gamblers in this case are children, who probably don't understand how the odds work. I'll be glad if the game system get banned. There is something very unscrupulous about marketing gambling towards children. Oh won't somebody PLEASE think of the children! | |
You know that last sentence where you deliberately use bad grammar for ironic purposes? The effect is diminished when you accidentally use terrible spelling and grammar throughout the comment. Which US mom are you talking about? Which people are you talking about? What are you talking about? | |
I'm not sure how to respond to this. Let them blow their money however they want, I say. It isn't a fraudulent practice par se, it's just another form of gambling - to which I am not opposed. This is more an issue of kids having access to their parents' debit/credit cards. Terrible, lazy, money grubbing game design, but not something which I think should be illegal. Would this also apply to Team Fortess 2 box keys? They don't guarantee that the player will receive a prize. Although someone seems to have addressed that already. | |
Don't fall into the relative-comparison trap. CCGs pull the same shit, and people use the same flimsy justification there. Except in practice, it's not. Only when both parties have spent a ridiculous amount of cash does it become a game based on execution. Until that point, whoever has the better cardpool will always have higher odds of winning, by far. It's "pay2win" and gambling no matter how one rationalizes it.
From what I see, s/he's calling out those imaginary US Moms who posted on this forum. | |
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The difference between what EA and this Gacha system is that even though you can spend real money it is entirely unnecessary to do so if you want to stay competitive. I can buy a spectre pack every 2 games on silver which takes a total of 30-40 minutes. Even if you don't get what you want you just play the game some more, which is what you would be doing anyway.
with Gacha it seems you NEED to buy dozens of these with real money and even if you do there is a good chance you'll be no better off.
Basically people paying real money for packs in ME3 are making the choice to get a pack quickly, whereas in Gacha games, the game IS buying these packs.
True but the main different being those are TRADING card games. The idea being you trade the ones you don't want with your friends. That's not to say that it isn't a tad exploitative but cards you don't want still retain value. There's been a few times where i've bought boosters for the explicit reason of having cards to trade with friends.