Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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Kahunaburger:

Buretsu:

Show me a web series that costs $70,000. It can be about anything you want, it just has to not be a "professional" effort. Go on, try.

Presumably the $70,000 extra money is going to be spent on something other than camera equipment. Likely a charity or some type of education-related product involved with the documentary.

But I can give you a couple examples of vidya gaem related webseries with budgets well in excess of this project's requested $6,000.

Neither of those series required +6,000. Penny Arcade simply required a website and a loose definition of the word 'talent.'

And Yahtzee? He made two of these videos before being picked up by the escapist when he was, as he describes, poor.

There is a difference between a webseries that COSTS money to create and a webseries that GENERATES money and expands into different territory.

I still think we should approach gender equality through making male characters sex objects for women, have games where characters like Dante, Nathan Drake and all the other ruggedly handsome can unlock a topless option.

Even though Juliet Starling is dressed as a cheerleader I think they have the right idea in having the male character as the helpless one being protected by his girlfriend, that doesn't sound too sexist to me.

TheKasp:

Buretsu:

Show me a web series that costs $70,000. It can be about anything you want, it just has to not be a "professional" effort. Go on, try.

Did I claim that there are webseries that require 70k$ to make ~12 episodes + additional stuff? Even disregarding that:

She did not estimate the need for 70k$, she asked for 6k$. Like many pointed out: For a series with episodes of such length on the same quality as she produces it is a reasonable number.

6k is at least somewhat reasonable. 70k is a a video series, a new car, a new boat, and a couple years worth of throwing around money. There's a reason she chose Kickstarter and didn't just solicit donations through her website. She's reading the negative comments and laughing all the way to the bank because every single one of them puts more money in her pocket.

Angryman101:

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

Khazoth:

Neither of those series required +6,000. Penny Arcade simply required a website and a loose definition of the word 'talent.'

Remember the Extra Credits/Escapist controversy? Particularly the part that related to the money due to EC (considerably more than $6,000) that hadn't been paid to them?

Khazoth:
And Yahtzee? He made two of these videos before being picked up by the escapist when he was, as he describes, poor.

And I'm sure he'd totally be able to make them at the current rate and production value if he wasn't compensated.

Khazoth:
There is a difference between a webseries that COSTS money to create and a webseries that GENERATES money and expands into different territory.

What does that even mean?

Scars Unseen:

To be fair, your sentiment is countered by three things:

1) The same could be said of (nearly) every other project on Kickstarter. People tend to start small and, if they're very very lucky, bring in enough money that their next project can be bigger. And if they somehow beat the odds, or manage to predict the markets and intentionally create The Next Big Thing, they'll have the money and the clout to make their dream project after 10 to 20 years of hard, often thankless work.

2) The entire point of Kickstarter is to give people a chance to break from the investor controlled world that makes the above true.

3) If people didn't want her to succeed she would not have been able to raise the funds. Vote with your wallet and leave others to vote with theirs.

1. I kind of support kickstarter projects that ACTUALLY require money to be started, like the Schaffer game. That being said, I'm not a fan of kickstarter in general, as people should have to produce quality content BEFORE people start throwing money at them. Proving your worth is something that should be done. This woman has not proved her worth, she just recycles tired arguments about dumb shit. Schaffer produced quality content in Day of the Tentacle and Psychonauts.
2. Pretty much answered with 1.
3. People want their views validated with other people who share their views. This is more why she's succeeding than anything she's produced. That and I'm convinced the last $20k she's raised is to spite the idiots on youtube and the like.

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

No, people wouldn't be throwing $70k at this documentary if there hadn't been as much publicity about the negative comments she was receiving about it. I doubt most of the people who threw money at her had even HEARD of her blog before.

Eamar:

Jiggy:
snip

I would like to clarify that I honestly wasn't trying to attack you personally. Really. I'm not trying to "cover my ass to avoid moderator wrath." You can choose to believe that if you like, but believe me that's not how it was meant. I apologise if I misinterpreted what you meant in the original post re: sexualisation and women as sex objects. If you weren't implying what I thought you were implying then my subsequent comments were groundless. I got the wrong end of the stick.

I wasn't trying to be passive aggressive with the Google comment, but I was exasperated and resorted to sarcasm. Again, apologies.

Now, to address your criticisms of each of the characters.

It's fine, you didn't offend me or anything, I just don't like it when people pretend they didn't mean to insult as a means to cover their asses. If that honestly wasn't your intention then I also apologize for accusing it of you.

Alyx: she's slim, yes, but not unhealthy looking. Plenty of women are naturally thin, and I certainly know more women who look like her than ones who resemble Bayonetta or old-school Lara Croft. I don't think the lack of the PC's personality is good grounds for criticising her: most first person games don't give the PC much personality. It's so the player can project themselves onto the template.

Alyx also seems pretty tall, slim and tall, give her a boob job and lose the jacket and swap the jeans for shorts and I don't think she would look that different from Lara. Bayonetta as to my knowledge (not a console gamer) is pretty much all about sexualization, doesn't really seem like a fair comparison. Anyway, regarding breast size (in reference to Lara) having large breats isn't exactly unnatural, my fiance has pretty large breasts, bigger then Laras, all natural. Alyx seems to be comparitively flat-chested...wait, I kind of lost track of what point I was going to make. Anyway, Alyx is fine, that's why it felt it worth bringing up other Valve Characters. If women can complain about stereotypes in games, I can too :P

And bringing the developer into this proves nothing. The point of me giving these examples was so I could demonstrate the sort of characters I'd like to see more of.

I didn't do so to prove a point, more to illustrate that Alyx pretty much has to be a good Character because none of the males that Valve makes could carry the game all too well.

Samus: I deliberately specified original Samus. That is, pre-Other M Samus. You say you're aware of the controversy, so you'll know the zero suit and her character in general in that game is considered an insult to the original character. So your comments are all valid, but do not relate to my example. And no she doesn't speak, she's another example of a silent protagonist. The point is that, once her gender was revealed, male players were not alienated by a female PC.

Which I don't find all that surprising considering that the better the ending the less Samus would be wearing.

Kat: I think you're scraping the bottom of the barrel here. That's not meant to be an insult, it just seems like you're reaching.

Actually that was a honest question, don't you think that the (in my eyes apparent) role reversal could be considered pandering?

Wynne: what sort of criticism is that? Yes, that's a woman. An old woman who hasn't been prettied up. What's your point?

Simply that she doesn't look like a woman, not like a woman that is old and hasn't been prettied up, simply not like a woman, more like a late change male to female transgender. Shouldn't a woman atleast look like a woman? She isn't simply ugly or something, she just doesn't seem to have a womanly face, that looks like a mans face to me.

"The girl" or "the chick" is a general trope in entertainment media. See here for many, many examples: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheChick
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FiveManBand/VideoGamesA-C

I'd read it, honestly, but TVTropes is probably the best site to distract me and I have a few 3D Models to finish.

As for your final comment, again yes I was annoyed, no I have no problem with you personally. Choose to believe it or don't. I've apologised, for what it's worth.

Like I said, it's fine, I apologize aswell, it wasn't exactly best form to go accusing you either.

Buretsu:
I'd say it's working perfectly.

She's already gone from "Who's that bitch?" to "Oh, that bitch."

If the aim of the outrage was to prove that the gaming community doesn't have a lingering problem with women, well ... good job, guys.

I'd say it's more a problem with her one-sided approach that rails against video-game women conforming to stereotypes, while completely ignoring that video-game men conform to stereotypes just as much. And the fact that she's crowdsourcing videos, videos just like the one she made to advertise her solicitations, videos she'll make even more money on the ad revenue and traffic they'll generate.

But, by all means, let's pay $50 so she can tell us we're all pigs for playing Super Mario Brothers, which has a princess who needs rescuing.

While I agree with your message in general, I think you're painting her more as a feminazi.

Buretsu:

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

No, people wouldn't be throwing $70k at this documentary if there hadn't been as much publicity about the negative comments she was receiving about it. I doubt most of the people who threw money at her had even HEARD of her blog before.

No, FF is pretty well-known. It's well-done, high production value online criticism with some pretty good social media support. I've linked to it, I've been linked to it. The kickstarter hit the budget goal less than 24 hours after it was posted.

Feminists and Stormfronters are both foulmouthed hothouse ideologues who deserve each other, they should totally date.

EDIT: They also tend to be white or self-hating Jewish.

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

Do you honestly believe that that many people have heard of this chick before this? No. I checked her series, she averaged around 60-70k hits as far as I could tell. Nowhere near enough exposure to draw this kind of backing. This money isn't a representation of her skills, this money is in response to the content. Feminists want their views validated, and want to spite those who they feel are repressing them.

Kahunaburger:

Khazoth:

Neither of those series required +6,000. Penny Arcade simply required a website and a loose definition of the word 'talent.'

Remember the Extra Credits/Escapist controversy? Particularly the part that related to the money due to EC (considerably more than $6,000) that hadn't been paid to them?

Khazoth:
And Yahtzee? He made two of these videos before being picked up by the escapist when he was, as he describes, poor.

And I'm sure he'd totally be able to make them at the current rate and production value if he wasn't compensated.

Khazoth:
There is a difference between a webseries that COSTS money to create and a webseries that GENERATES money and expands into different territory.

What does that even mean?

Well, let me start with number one, no, I don't. I don't remember because I never cared for Extra Credits, no offense to that lot but I never started watching their videos.

Number two, Yeah, yeah he would, go look at youtube, any part of it. No offense to Yahtzee but you can make his show with the simplest of video editing software, and that was his intention I believe. The problem is, Yahtzee was discovered for his talent, he was picked up and asked to join, he didn't ask for money.

Number 3. It means that your examples didnt cost six thousand to begin, no where near that much. I doubt it costed more then a hundred dollars. It GENERATED and EARNED money and then expanded into different territory like games for Penny Arcade, or merchandising for Yahtzee.

Khazoth:
snip

So, I watched now through most of them and none of them actually discusses the topic you can expect from this series (again, I base my argumentation on her already existing series: Tropes vs Women).

The topic won't be obejctifying women (well, not in that extent) or being sexist to other players. What will be discussed is how female characters in fall into certain roles in the story and fail to be actual female characters. Some of the tropes (I think you know the definition of it) can be looked up, some are rather specific and I failed to find any information on it on the site Angryman101 suggested. Basically: This series won't deal that much with depiction of females or the harassment of players but more how female characters are used in games.

Add to this: In comparison to the first series she not only wants to increase the duration (doubling it) but also add examples which avoid it (and really, those are even rare in movies which are more sophisticated than games).

A little sidenote: Of all the videos you linked only one came close to the same level of quality in sound and video.

6k... reasonable sum. Like I already wrote: I hope she'll answer me roughtly in what she wants to invest the 70k.

Angryman101:

Hahahaha, careful, missy, your mad is showing. Nice job turning to ad hominem when you couldn't rebuff my points.

1: Not a girl.
2: Not mad, only tired.
3: I failed to see any points I couldn't rebuff by pointing out that you still fail to give me actual examples of the thousands (by now hundresds if I've not misread) webseries covering the same topic as she wants to cover.

I really don't fucking get it. Granted, the response has been shameful. But... doesn't she put out videos on youtube about this very sort of thing?

Why is she now making a kickstarter to fund what she's been doing for ages already? Why has she been promised $73,000?

Maybe I should let Tobuscus or RayWilliamJohnson know of this little financial trick.

Edit: Just looked at some of the posts above, I may be stepping into a minefield with this one.

TheKasp:

Angryman101:

Hahahaha, careful, missy, your mad is showing. Nice job turning to ad hominem when you couldn't rebuff my points.

1: Not a girl.
2: Not mad, only tired.
3: I failed to see any points I couldn't rebuff by pointing out that you still fail to give me actual examples of the thousands (by now hundresds if I've not misread) webseries covering the same topic as she wants to cover.

You already saw the examples when you looked it up yourself. The other guy I quoted also posted examples. You're either willfully ignoring them or we are just not on the same wavelength.

A bit off topic but can someone tell me why people are using judaism as a derogatory term?

TheKasp:

Khazoth:
snip

So, I watched now through most of them and none of them actually discusses the topic you can expect from this series (again, I base my argumentation on her already existing series: Tropes vs Women).

The topic won't be obejctifying women (well, not in that extent) or being sexist to other players. What will be discussed is how female characters in fall into certain roles in the story and fail to be actual female characters. Some of the tropes (I think you know the definition of it) can be looked up, some are rather specific and I failed to find any information on it on the site Angryman101 suggested. Basically: This series won't deal that much with depiction of females or the harassment of players but more how female characters are used in games.

Add to this: In comparison to the first series she not only wants to increase the duration (doubling it) but also add examples which avoid it (and really, those are even rare in movies which are more sophisticated than games).

A little sidenote: Of all the videos you linked only one came close to the same level of quality in sound and video.

6k... reasonable sum. Like I already wrote: I hope she'll answer me roughtly in what she wants to invest the 70k.

They might not be what she intends to cover, but that was a handful out of a couple thousand videos I didnt care to take the time to link.

The point is that the subject matter has been covered so many times people are tired of hearing it.

"We're men, we're horrible sexist people, yeah we get it can we stop taking about this subject now?"

Angryman101:

You already saw the examples when you looked it up yourself. The other guy I quoted also posted examples. You're either willfully ignoring them or we are just not on the same wavelength.

You made the claim, I won't do any research you won't do to back up your claims.

Wait a minute. She asked for money in order to make 5 videos? 5 videos about a subject everyone who's interested in is already familiar with? Subject already researched and analyzed by many other serious video game journalists?

AND PEOPLE FELL FOR THAT?!

I have to say I am impressed. Well done. She made people pay for something completely useless. She should be in politics.

Angryman101:

Furrama:

So, you're shaming her because you don't think she deserves anything, that the discussion has been had and that everything is over. Are things... better though after said discussion?

The discussion will be had again and again, and the same general points made over and over, with better and better quality, until things change. That's how change works. Very rarely do I hear someone make an original point never thought of before. Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't the first nor the last to talk about the issues surrounding race in America. Things are better than they were, but things are not where they could be, should be.

People donating, for the most part, have no ill feelings toward the things that are men. There are men donating after all, many women are married to them, have them as sons, so forth. People do have ill feelings to what they perceive as jerkbacks. That I can abide. The money has ceased to become mere funding and has become a statement: "Jerkbags. No. Stop it. We're tired of your crap."

I'm shaming her because she is making money off of this for not doing anything new or interesting. She's getting money because 'feminism, yay!'
I don't give a shit about 'jerkbags', as you so eloquently put it. And comparing some shitty writing and side boob exposure to the civil rights movement is pretty god damn blasphemous.

Side boob exposure? You made that blasphemous link, not me.

Look at women's issues of today. Look at yesteryear. Things are better. Look at civil rights issues for African-Americans of today and yesteryear. Better. But still broken when compared to the rights and privileges to men in America and Japan, the places where games are made. Sure, everyone has their kicks, but their kicks don't really limit them in such a drastic way.

Angryman101:

Scars Unseen:

To be fair, your sentiment is countered by three things:

1) The same could be said of (nearly) every other project on Kickstarter. People tend to start small and, if they're very very lucky, bring in enough money that their next project can be bigger. And if they somehow beat the odds, or manage to predict the markets and intentionally create The Next Big Thing, they'll have the money and the clout to make their dream project after 10 to 20 years of hard, often thankless work.

2) The entire point of Kickstarter is to give people a chance to break from the investor controlled world that makes the above true.

3) If people didn't want her to succeed she would not have been able to raise the funds. Vote with your wallet and leave others to vote with theirs.

1. I kind of support kickstarter projects that ACTUALLY require money to be started, like the Schaffer game. That being said, I'm not a fan of kickstarter in general, as people should have to produce quality content BEFORE people start throwing money at them. Proving your worth is something that should be done. This woman has not proved her worth, she just recycles tired arguments about dumb shit. Schaffer produced quality content in Day of the Tentacle and Psychonauts.
2. Pretty much answered with 1.
3. People want their views validated with other people who share their views. This is more why she's succeeding than anything she's produced. That and I'm convinced the last $20k she's raised is to spite the idiots on youtube and the like.

1) People make games on shoestring budgets as well, so I'm not sure what the difference is. Regardless, you have no say over what I do with my money(I didn't help fund this project, but that's irrelevant to my argument) or what anyone else does with theirs. My point is that the industry(any industry) is a terrible thankless environment for anyone with creative aspirations. Creative aspirations aren't often profitable, you see. And that's the only reason people have to prove themselves in the first place: to protect investments. And Kickstarter takes that need out of the equation, as there are no investors to pay back.

2) Ditto.

3) That's as valid a reason to throw money away as any other(since there is no promise of success, any money pledged to a Kickstarter project is more or less a gift). As for the second part, well then maybe those haters should have remembered the first rule of publicity: There is No Such Thing as Bad Publicity.

Khazoth:

They might not be what she intends to cover, but that was a handful out of a couple thousand videos I didnt care to take the time to link.

The point is that the subject matter has been covered so many times people are tired of hearing it.

"We're men, we're horrible sexist people, yeah we get it can we stop taking about this subject now?"

Why should we stop talking about it? Especially if the series is made by a person who has yet to yell out that man (aka the consumers) are at fault. Ignoring the problem won't do jack. And if I'm looking at this thread: A lot of people here don't even know what the the topic of those videos will be, they do the same as you. Blocking as soon as they hear the word "feminist" and excusing any kind of behaviour.

But now: It's 1 am here so I'm off to bed, have stuff to do early in the morning (stuff including drunken sailors and captains daughters). Gnite.

Angryman101:

Kahunaburger:

Angryman101:

Yahtzee was offered money to do what he does after he created videos that were interesting and new-for free.

Which is exactly what happened with this kickstarter, as well. People wouldn't be throwing $70,000 dollars at this documentary if FF hadn't built up credibility.

Do you honestly believe that that many people have heard of this chick before this? No. I checked her series, she averaged around 60-70k hits as far as I could tell. Nowhere near enough exposure to draw this kind of backing.

She hit her kickstarter goal in 24 hours. So yeah, apparently pretty credible with people willing and able to make kickstarter donations. The difference between her 70K viewers and (say) xXx1337Noscopez420xXx's much larger "gameplay and commentary" viewer-base is that more of the FF viewer-base are employed, opinionated adults who have both money to pitch into a kickstarter fund and the desire to do so.

Furrama:

Side boob exposure? You made that blasphemous link, not me.

Look at women's issues of today. Look at yesteryear. Things are better. Look at civil rights issues for African-Americans of today and yesteryear. Better. But still broken when compared to the rights and privileges to men in America and Japan, the places where games are made. Sure, everyone has their kicks, but their kicks don't really limit them in such a drastic way.

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.
'Rights and privileges to men in America/Japan'
Hahahaha. Right. Divorce rape, alimony, child support, false rape claims, and a biased judicial and media system. It must be hard being a woman, seeing how other, more attractive women seem to drive men insane while they barely give a plain jane the time of day.

Stupid responses to that video, without a shadow of a doubt. I think a good portion of them are just trolling, though.

The thing is, I dislike this project too. Maybe I'm sexist? I'd acknowledge it could be taken that way, but I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games. I can understand why women are frustrated, but I'm just feeling that the medium is being clinicalised and rationalised too much. All of society is clean and pleasant these days, there's nowhere for any sort of base passions or beliefs to be expressed and enjoyed.

In short, I'd say this tropes project is a noble goal that will inevitably aid gaming's slide into being really fucking boring, dull, and civilised.

Susan Arendt:

Phasmal:

Richardplex:

True, and I don't dispute that it isn't called for and it makes me embarassed to associate my gender with these people, but I mean, why make a news report for this? If there was a news report every time a bunch of misogynists were being scum, we'd never learn anything outside of youtube/xbox live. Sure it's unacceptable, but we aren't fixing anything, and we aren't learning anything - anyone who saw this project knew right away this was going to happen.

I for one am glad it's been featured.
I've had people tell me sexism is no longer a problem in our community, with a straight face. Which is just bizzarre to me. Obviously as a girl I've seen my fair share, and there are times where I begin to think there is no point trying to change anything.

But I don't think it should ever be something we should just accept. Gaming sites/gamers saying this is not acceptable is a positive thing, and I'm happy to see it. People who don't participate in it but sit quietly as it goes on don't help.

Exactly. The comments, for the most part, don't discuss whether or not her point of view is valid, or whether the documentary would be worthwhile, they just come out swinging about how she's a Jew that needs a good dicking...except she's a lesbian and the commenters wouldn't fuck her, anyway.

Disagreeing with her point of view is fine, as is thinking her Kickstarter is a lousy idea. This isn't about whether or not her point of view is correct, it's about the sheer level of vitriol being directed at her. People frequently claim there's no sexism in gaming communities...well, take a look, gang. It's out there and it's ugly. Just saying "we knew this would happen" and shrugging it off isn't enough. Maybe some readers aren't "learning anything" because they're aware this goes on, but perhaps we educate some who truly didn't know it got this bad.

I think the reaction is more akin to one about a car being stolen in a bad neighborhood when the keys are left in the ignition. We know how it is. It sucks but surprising or news-worthy it is not.

Bringing it up and letting people know something that they are already aware of is hardly productive and its only effect is to make the news-barer feel righteous and useful.

Kahunaburger:
She hit her kickstarter goal in 24 hours. So yeah, apparently pretty credible with people willing and able to make kickstarter donations. The difference between her 70K viewers and (say) xXx1337Noscopez420xXx's much larger "gameplay and commentary" viewer-base is that more of the FF viewer-base are employed, opinionated adults who have both money to pitch into a kickstarter fund and the desire to do so.

Hello, baseless claim!
Also, if it were only $6k, I would be somewhat perturbed, but would give less of a shit than I do now. She has over $70k, though, because she's in the middle of a clash between a notoriously self-righteous, frivolous-spending ideology and the fucking monkeys on youtube. She is gaining money because of people's dumbfuckery and it steams my ass to the extent of qualifying my position and engaging in debate on an online gaming forum.

Angryman101:

Things are BETTER? Things are worse than fucking every. More women are unhappy, and more are on antidepressants than ever before. The only people things today are good for are attractive, intelligent men. Why is that? Because feminism. So, good job to feminists, I guess. lol.

Aaaaaand let's all stop feeding this guy. Any semblance of credibility has been lost. Good job.

Oh no people are being mean on the internet!.. Pretty pointless article imo.

CosmicCommander:
Stupid responses to that video, without a shadow of a doubt. I think a good portion of them are just trolling, though.

The thing is, I dislike this project too. Maybe I'm sexist? I'd acknowledge it could be taken that way, but I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games. I can understand why women are frustrated, but I'm just feeling that the medium is being clinicalised and rationalised too much. All of society is clean and pleasant these days, there's nowhere for any sort of base passions or beliefs to be expressed and enjoyed.

In short, I'd say this tropes project is a noble goal that will inevitably aid gaming's slide into being really fucking boring, dull, and civilised.

Great response. Yea most seems to just be trolls for the fun of it I mean kitchen jokes.. how can you take theses seriously..

And female are stereotypes because of marketing reasons. Plus there isn't that much female main characters (because demographic) so most are side characters and thus can't reach has much depth.
It's already a debated to death and understood issue...

Di-Dorval:
Oh no people are being mean on the internet!.. Pretty pointless article imo.

And female are stereotypes because of marketing reasons. Plus there isn't that much female main characters (because demographic) so most are side characters and thus can't reach has much depth.
It's already a debated to death and understood issue...

Pointless implies sexism doesn't get views and money.

I don't intend for the following to be mean, or hurtful, but honest criticism. But if not for the sexism this honestly boring body of work wouldn't have netted anyone giving her the money to make her series.

So pointless? Naaaaaah. Escapist is raking in the views today.

I wonder how much shouting about this subject there has to be before mainstream game publishers start to think that maybe they should have a go at making games that reflect a broader emotional range than just horny teenage boy. I don't suppose this video will reach any of the right people but it's worth a try...

nasteypenguin:

orangeban:
These stereotypes revolve around this idea of men being the ultimate ideal.

I think I understand what you mean by the "ultimate man" archetype, being big and tough and unemotional; but is that not just the easiest way to portray a capable, independent and strong willed character? I personally would assume it is, and it would mean the "burly female stereotype" is not born of sexism but from inherent lack of originality in story telling.
I would suggest that some of the sexism your seeing in games isn't about ignorance or prejudice, it's simply another consequence of poor writing in mainstream games.

You raise an interesting point, and I will answer it. I have no doubt that a lot of the sexism is rooted in laziness, I don't think the whole, say, Bethesda writing team are all sexist woman haters, I just think they're pulling on common tropes. What's interesting is why these tropes exist and the implicit meanings behind the tropes.

And your probably right that strong and unemotional is an easy trope and lazy writing. I hadn't considered this, and you're probably right, this stereotypically male persona is a pretty easy thing to write.

Also, I think your whole evil guy stereotype is a bit flawed; wizards are abundant in protagonists and good guys, even being a standard class in most rpgs. Most of them are portrayed as wise and intellectual people, both very good attributes. Take Gandalf for example; he doesn't seem to fit into this manly ideal, but he's a hugely well received and idealised male character.

Again, fair enough, I didn't look at this point enough. Villains in stories (though not so much in videogames since videogames need a good boss fight), usually human villains, are weak, not very good fighters. The idea is that if they'd face the protagonist like a "real man", then they'd lose. Think of classic villains, The Joker, (usually! Don't kill me Batman lovers!), doesn't fight, if we go back to LotR, then Saruman, he doesn't fight while Gandalf does (in the movies at least, I haven't read the books). An unwillingness to fight, or to get others to do your fighting rather than do it personally, is generally correlated with villainy in stories.

Is it not just a case of trying to portray a women's figure in a physically exceptional way, which is what muscles are well known to do, that the "burly" image appears. It just so happens that men also need muscles to be shown as physically strong as well. Athletic bodies would seem to fall into the sexy category, being one of the most sexualised figures.

Burly doesn't just mean muscly, I admit I chose the category title rather poorly. It's about being tough, brooding, as close to the ULTIMATE MAN stereotype from the men's list. And yes, athletic bodies can be both sexy and burly, it depends on how they are portrayed.

I'm a guy, so I obviously have much less understanding of sexism against females than any woman, but I don't believe the "women needing to be manly to be accepted" concept exists. Indeed, I don't think the term "manly" exists, surely since men and women are of equal capabilities, distinguishing something as unwomanly because men are known to portray it is the very definition of sexism. You seem to be suggesting women need to be portrayed as something utterly different in order to be shown as equal.

I'd say manly most definitely exists, society is really very clear on it. From the very early ages, dolls are for girls, toy swords are for boys, because fighting and swords are manly. Distinguishing things as unwomanly because men are stereotypically known for doing it is the the definition of sexism, but I'm not the first to do it. Rather, I'm commenting on the fact that society has internalised these distinctions between manly and womanly and expresses them in the form of stereotypes.

And our current views of what is manly is not the only way to portray heroes. You mention unemotional, but why can't we have a very emotional hero? Why don't we see more poets or musicians as heroes? Why must they be big and strong, the less strong can still fire guns or command troops or work out puzzles? Why are their very, very few disabled heroes?

"fucking ovendodger," he adds

I don't know whether to find this man and prevent him from procreating and passing on such views or give him some sort of congratulations on coming up with an insult so absurd in its hatefulness that it made me smirk
Oh, no, wait, its the first one. Its definitely the first one

CosmicCommander:
I'm just tired of egalitarianism, tolerance, and respect making their way into games.

This is a thing now? Please point me to all these games you're apparently playing that respectfully portray individuals of a wide range of backgrounds.

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