Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 . . . 35 NEXT
 

While I think these comments are vile, I'm not surprised in the least. Look at any random article about...well, ANYTHING on Yahoo and you will see comment sections pack full of hateful comments about women, minorities, and gays. It's by no means the majority of people and I think most gamers would find this behavior insulting and crude. I also know that most gamers love to see thought-provoking studies, films, etc. about women in games (anything to lend out hobby credibility, lol).

In other words...don't feed the trolls. Ignore their ridiculous comments and press on. They're not going away, especially not on the internet where the Gabe's "Greater Internet F-wad Theory" still reigns supreme.

Chemical Alia:

Father Time:

If she wanted discussions she could interview someone who makes those characters or is involved with game marketing or something.

It might surprise you how few of these people ever think about such things.

How do you want to fight the problem if you don't make an effort to understand the causes?

If you don't hear the marketers, the players who like those games (as myself), the other side, it becomes just a one sided speech where you tell a group of people to shut up. And nobody likes to be told to shut up, specially when it is said that they are the cause of misoginy or some other kind of evil.

Father Time:

JerrytheBullfrog:

Father Time:

Prove that they cause shifts in attitudes (and don't give me some study that only shows short term effects).

And people joke about all sorts of horrible things.

Genocide, 9/11, death etc.

Look up dark humor sometime

capcha: get over it

How appropriate

Nobody says that the victims of genocide are at fault for what happened to them, or that they should have done more to fight the genocide, or doubts that there was any such genocide that actually took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_denial

Also I don't see why I should stop telling jokes just because other people (people I'm not telling the jokes too) believe stupid things.

I don't actually know any rape jokes that have victim blaming.

Those are denied by a handful of lone crazies who are ostracized by society.

Rape victims are challenged BY society.

Try again.

Blablahb:

JerrytheBullfrog:
From what I've read of your "arguments" here, I most certainly know enough about you to judge that you are, in fact, supporting rape culture

Then you are shameless, without any form of decency, out of your mind, and not worth responding to. Go away and take your accusations of people supporting rape elsewhere.

But as it happens, thanks for proving feminists are indeed insane.

Awwww, I'm sowwy, did I huwt your pwecious fee-fees? The idea that your actions and words could be indirectly supporting a culture that trivializes rape sucks, doesn't it? You know what sucks more? Being on the other end of that culture.

You just keep digging your hole deeper, bucko. And btw, thanks for inserting "rape" where I say "rape culture" to twist my words into an argument you can more easily defend against with indignation. That's not underhanded at all.

I am telling you. I have fucking seen the consequences of my actions. As a guy who used to be as fucking willfully blind as you, I have seen rape culture for a fact. That you refuse to listen and consider becoming a better person is wholly on your shoulders, not mine.

Clearing the Eye:

TheKasp:

Clearing the Eye:
Because Bungie was well known for their sexism? Preaching to the choir sure is productive.

Actually, yes. Creating actual female character who are not just there to drive forward the story of the male counterpart is a thing where media is lacking (I say media, not only gaming). So yes, showing the developers the loopholes they fall into is productive.

They have to create female characters and create them in the certain way that you like? How sexist of you.

Somebody doesn't know what sexist means!

Smilomaniac:
My projecting?
Let me guess, you're not even ten, no make that five years into your current relationship. Am I right?
If you are; then look at my previous post.

There doesn't exist a single relationship in the world, I will bet my life and every friend and family member I have on this, where something hasn't annoyed one of the two people, about the other. It's there. In every relationship. The question is how big an issue it is, and often you'll be blind to it because you're willing to see past flaws when you're in love.
And it goes both ways. Perfect relationships are just not possible, because we're all just wired that way. If you haven't realized this yet, then you might as well start accepting it and seeing past it, before it gets to you.

Every. Relationship. Call me negative, call me a misanthrope, it doesn't matter; It's how it is.

Every relationship has problems, but not every relationship has problems consisting of the woman demanding unequal amounts of time from the man. Again, what you said is:

Smilomaniac:
The other ting is that any man who's had a girlfriend or wife, knows the feeling of them encroaching on your territory, your place of silence and focus. When girls like Anita make an accusing video like that, men take it personally, because it's another one of those annoying cries for attention(Not saying it is, I'm saying it LOOKS like it).

You clearly aren't making a generic point here about how relationships in general have their ups and downs; you're clearly saying that WOMEN in all relationships (with men, at least) are almost incapable of asking for a reasonable amount of attention. Which is only further proven by the fact that you state that men don't like this girl's video because she looks like she's doing that very thing (craving attention she doesn't deserve).

Which is problematic because not all women even do this (and if you truly think all women ask for too much attention, you're being sexist, plain and simple). Just like not all men are introverts who crave alone time and therefore face the same problems that you did in your relationships (and if you think all men are like this, you're also being sexist, plain and simple). Men and women who don't fit those categories may face other problems in their relationships, surely; but to genericise the problems that ALL men face at the hands of women based on your past relationships is ridiculous. Not all men have problems because their female partners want too much attention.

I don't know whether you're conflating the issue of having relationship problems in general (which you literally only just described) and having issues because some women want too much attention on purpose or not. Or whether you're going back on that part I took issue with, or whether you're using this post as an explanation of the former. I'm hoping this post is a retraction of the previous one, but in the event that you are conflating the two and you do see this post as clarification of the part I quoted: by implying that this is the main issue all relationships have, you're putting all the blame for relationship trouble on women, which is unfair and incredibly sexist. Just like if a woman were to claim that all relationship problems stem from men being too horny, it would also be an unfair generalization and incredibly sexist. Because not all women demand too much from their partners, and not all men are sex-obsessed animals. That is the point I've been making.

Do me a favor, don't bother replying.

Well I did anyway, so...

A) A white knight, unable to fathom that a woman can be as big a douchebag as a man

You still have yet to actually quote the part where I said women are incapable of being terrible people (which I did ask you to do with my last response). I stated that you can't claim that all women are terrible and require more attention than is fair, which is extremely different from saying that women are perfect.

tehweave:
Five things.

1. It's youtube commenters. They're 13-17 year old boys who have never touched a boob before. It's the same commenters who drastically hated the male shepherd sex scene from Mass Effect 3.

2. It looks like she got her project funded, so... Good.

3. She's completely right. Video games are overly sexist.

And two counters:

1. This isn't just a problem with games, its a problem with media in general. See also: Hollywood and any commercial on a major network dealing with: food, laundry, yogurt, beer, cars, and any kind of yardwork tool or garage tool.

2. Why does she need money for a video blog series? Not to agree with the third guy you quoted, but... What does that money go towards?

Good sir, I take offense to that, I have also met youtube commenters older than 13 years old.
I myself indulge in posting comments on youtube every once in a while and whilst I am male, I am not 13-17 nor do I take offense to homosexual Shephard.

Also, I don't know any good rape jokes.
NONE, so could someone please give me an example of what is considered a rape-joke?
Will trade for dead baby jokes.

On topic:
I fail to see what's so bad about this video, the video series or her wanting money.
The fact that she reached her goal, and more, shows us, that she has an audience willing to pay money for her work.
And hell, what's so bad about wanting money?
I want money, and I bet all of you on here want money as well. She found a way to make money, doing something many people apparently believe she should do, so who am I to tell her what she can and can't do? And if she wants to discuss women in video games, let her do that. It has been don before, many many times, but maybe she will provide some new insights.

This is pretty much a scam. Asking for donations for a vlog? Man, people will try anything to get rich.

Anyway, this whole thing is an artificially constructed issue because video games are full of tropes, not just women specific. Its actually pretty sexist to ignore the ridiculous male tropes, but w/e.

The MAIN issue, however, is that it is impossible to create a good female character for a few reasons:
1. The things that define a woman are either considered sexist or have no possible application in gaming
2. A good female character is often ignored by the feminists because she's not "female" enough.
3. Look at # 2, then #1, and you'll see this closes out any possibility of females being happy with women in games.
4. As a result, developers focus on the male demographic, which :
A. Has consistent taste and purchase habits vastly outnumbering female gamers.
B. When games with strong women characters WERE released, they were ignored by BOTH communities. The industry has extended its hand a few times already, and each time they were utterly ignored. Its the fault of female gamers themselves and the white knights for not purchasing these games and PROVING that they sell.

I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones. It appears the videos by this lazy scammer female gamer will be no different; she'll destroy every female character seen thus far, and offer ZERO tips on making a good one.

To be fair, probably most of the users commenting on the project just saw the title "something vs. women" which, in itself, sounds misogynistic so they commented thinking they're the just ones. It's a classic "i'm commenting on this even though i have no idea what i'm talking about and thus have nothing of value to say" scenario.

I don't honestly understand the need for the project, but I'm guessing it's one of those "we r independent" things that people cling to all the time.

Seriously, has anyone here ever treated a woman badly based on the fact that women are cliches in video games?

Hell, men are cliches in video games too. Where's the kickstarter representing my manly independence?

gotta say, the insult 'ovendodger' is new to me...

snowplow:

A. Has consistent taste and purchase habits vastly outnumbering female gamers.

48% of game purchases are done by females. 4% more is not "vastly outnumbering".

The rest of your post: This person actually already hold curriculums, her videos are shown in universities and she already had contact with game developers on that subject.

And if you don't have ad revenue and make most of your living through vlogs then 6k$ is a reasonable sum of money to ask for if creating a series of videos 15-20 minutes long with both positive as negative examples for tropes.

I dunno about this project really. On paper I think that it is mostly pointless - I can't see it changing a god damn thing.

OR AT LEAST THAT WAS UNTIL ALL THE ABUSE CAME ROLLING IN...

If everyone, acted like decent human beings and let the project raise the target of 6K. Then create the videos for a niche audience to be view and be intrigued by them. And nothing would change.

However, for some reason an unfortunately large vocal group of 'gaming males' have decided to be voice they're opinion of how pointless the video is by making vile, disgusting, pathetic remarks about her based purely on her gender.

I am myself a male gamer and before this issue, didn't really care for gender equality on games (I play only with friends and don't insult other players, period.

BUT this vocal group of assholes makes me ashamed to be a part of the gaming community and in no way does the video warrant this hate.

So ironically the haters have highlighted this issue for me, much more than the videos themselves would have. CONGRATULATIONS, job done.

[/rant] and sorry for the bad grammar

snowplow:

The MAIN issue, however, is that it is impossible to create a good female character for a few reasons:
1. The things that define a woman are either considered sexist or have no possible application in gaming
2. A good female character is often ignored by the feminists because she's not "female" enough.
3. Look at # 2, then #1, and you'll see this closes out any possibility of females being happy with women in games.

Um... seriously? Please can you enlighten me on what 'defines a woman'.

Do you have some examples of your second point?

snowplow:
I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones. It appears the videos by this lazy scammer female gamer will be no different; she'll destroy every female character seen thus far, and offer ZERO tips on making a good one.

Anita Sarkeesian says in her video that she's also going to be pointing out positive female characters in games to show how it should be done. I'll reserve judgement on the content of her videos until I've actually SEEN her videos. I think that's just common sense.

Personally, I've just finished playing Beyond Good and Evil and I thought the female protagonist was excellent.

TheKasp:

snowplow:

A. Has consistent taste and purchase habits vastly outnumbering female gamers.

48% of game purchases are done by females. 4% more is not "vastly outnumbering".

The rest of your post: This person actually already hold curriculums, her videos are shown in universities and she already had contact with game developers on that subject.

And if you don't have ad revenue and make most of your living through vlogs then 6k$ is a reasonable sum of money to ask for if creating a series of videos 15-20 minutes long with both positive as negative examples for tropes.

Source for that statistic please, I have as of yet not seen anything remotely close to your number, not even statistics including Wii and facebook games. Unless you provide a source I'll assume you're making it up.

As to the second point, listing her credentials does not invalidate anything I said.

snowplow:
Source for that statistic please, I have as of yet not seen anything remotely close to your number, not even statistics including Wii and facebook games. Unless you provide a source I'll assume you're making it up.

As to the second point, listing her credentials does not invalidate anything I said.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp

There is also the PDF with further numbers about this. What I forgot to mention is that this covers the US and in other regions it can be a little of.

Oh, I also did not want to contradict most of your post because especially the list can't be proved wrong by me because from this standpoint we only have her previous work as the only example how we can expect her take on the subject to be. Where I don't agree with is that this is just a scam due to the quality of her previous work (financed by other sources or donations) and her credentials.

Oh dear Lord. Maybe this thread should be renamed "Feminist commentator has opinion, internet has conniptions".

Seriously, I bet if I started a thread entitled "Maybe the feminists are right...", I would get a couple of hundred views in a matter of minutes.

Hollyday:

snowplow:

The MAIN issue, however, is that it is impossible to create a good female character for a few reasons:
1. The things that define a woman are either considered sexist or have no possible application in gaming
2. A good female character is often ignored by the feminists because she's not "female" enough.
3. Look at # 2, then #1, and you'll see this closes out any possibility of females being happy with women in games.

Um... seriously? Please can you enlighten me on what 'defines a woman'.

Do you have some examples of your second point?

You tell me. What, exactly, makes a good FEMALE character? Oftentimes when examples are brought up, they're accused of being good characters but their gender might as well be male, or their accused of pandering to the male demographic.

As for specific examples, I don't remember since I don't play most of the games where the examples were from, also these threads were a while ago. I do remember Alyx Vance and Samus Aran were considered to be the same as fetish characters from the semi naked women with boob physics from soul caliber. Unfortunately those are the only two examples I remember. I think the protagonist of the longest journey was one of the handful of "good" female characters the community agreed upon.

http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf here's the PDF.
Just Dance 3 is the second most sold game,who knew?

marche45:
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2012.pdf here's the PDF.
Just Dance 3 is the second most sold game,who knew?

Not that big of a surprise if you give the top selling charts a look now and then. I can't remember when Just Dance 3 was never in the top 10.

Grahav:

Chemical Alia:

Father Time:

If she wanted discussions she could interview someone who makes those characters or is involved with game marketing or something.

It might surprise you how few of these people ever think about such things.

How do you want to fight the problem if you don't make an effort to understand the causes?

If you don't hear the marketers, the players who like those games (as myself), the other side, it becomes just a one sided speech where you tell a group of people to shut up. And nobody likes to be told to shut up, specially when it is said that they are the cause of misoginy or some other kind of evil.

I don't follow the point you're trying to make, based on what I said.

snowplow:
This is pretty much a scam. Asking for donations for a vlog? Man, people will try anything to get rich.

Anyway, this whole thing is an artificially constructed issue because video games are full of tropes, not just women specific. Its actually pretty sexist to ignore the ridiculous male tropes, but w/e.

The MAIN issue, however, is that it is impossible to create a good female character for a few reasons:
1. The things that define a woman are either considered sexist or have no possible application in gaming
2. A good female character is often ignored by the feminists because she's not "female" enough.
3. Look at # 2, then #1, and you'll see this closes out any possibility of females being happy with women in games.
4. As a result, developers focus on the male demographic, which :
A. Has consistent taste and purchase habits vastly outnumbering female gamers.
B. When games with strong women characters WERE released, they were ignored by BOTH communities. The industry has extended its hand a few times already, and each time they were utterly ignored. Its the fault of female gamers themselves and the white knights for not purchasing these games and PROVING that they sell.

I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones. It appears the videos by this lazy scammer female gamer will be no different; she'll destroy every female character seen thus far, and offer ZERO tips on making a good one.

Really? I've heard that Alyx from Half Life 2 was a decent female character.

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

Chemical Alia:

It might surprise you how few of these people ever think about such things.

How do you want to fight the problem if you don't make an effort to understand the causes?

If you don't hear the marketers, the players who like those games (as myself), the other side, it becomes just a one sided speech where you tell a group of people to shut up. And nobody likes to be told to shut up, specially when it is said that they are the cause of misoginy or some other kind of evil.

I don't follow the point you're trying to make, based on what I said.

The point is that it seemed to me that you think that what the "misogynistic" game producers thoughts about the issue are either irrelevant or non-existent. If you don't know why they make such games, how do you want to convince them to stop making them or making "gender positive" games?

More, it weakens your position if the target of your discourse discovers that you consider them as just non-thinking idiots.

snowplow:

I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones.

Excellent point. It is easy to be destructive, but difficult to be creative.

An effort shold be made in this direction.

OBJECTION......the metroid franchise with the exepction of other M

Blablahb:

Eamar:
But tell me: I'm a feminist. According to your rules I must be a "crazy." Find evidence of this: go!

Well, for one thing you cannot accept what I say, while a big missing link is any evidence on your part.

Which would be fairly hypocritical, because if I came in yelling fire and murder about supposed discrimination which you don't know to exist, you'd like me to at least show some indications of it actually happening before you jump on any bandwagons. I do the same and you cry I'm not interested in hearing it.

I'm not interested in hearing preconceived myths about supposed conspiracies to oppress women. I'll also tell you why: The reason for those is to dismiss any component of own choice and inevitability, just because that's uncomfortable for the author, and it has nothing to do with finding out what is true and correct. It's basically a form of religion.

I'm always open to hearing factual information, just don't blame me for not going along in some silly mythology without any proof.

On the topic of feminist mythology, do you know what's a fun topic to read about with feminists? Female rape fantasies. There's a pretty sharp divide in feminist and psychological litature, with the feminists obviously going for some fairy tale about a conspiracy of men have conditioned women to be used to rape and even fantasize about it, while the actual scientific literature weighs all sorts of explanations carefully.

For instance here:
http://www.clinica.divisionescolpsic.org/articulos-docs/Womens_Erotic_Rape.pdf

Note how they dismiss the feminist conspiracy theory. Review of said feminist book they refer to shows the empirical quality of it is questionable at best. It's bound together from baseless assumptions.

Also note how they dismiss the feminist claim that rape fantasies and actual rape are alike. They are in fact very different scenarios.


And the Huffington Post offers us a small insight into just how powerfull the politically correcy lynchmob of feminists has become towards any and all who reveal information they dislike. They bring this story about female rape fantasies, which is uncomfortable to feminists because it dismisses their 'rape culture' myth.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/dr-raj-persaud/womens-sexual-fantasies_b_1511322.html?ref=uk

Note the first sentence: "A team of psychologists led by a woman has uncovered". Why would the HuffPost write that? The gender of the team's leader is irrelevant? Well, if it had been a man, there'd have been a feminist lynchmob to dismiss the story as a part of a male conspiracy to oppress women. It's gotten that ridiculous.

Thank you sir.

Oops! Who ever was in charge of assembling this openly gynemasculinistic project's head montage haplessly included a Princess Peach illustration from no less than 'Super Princess Peach'. That would be the one in which she heroically advents to rescue the helpless Mario and Luigi from Bowser, decimating his army on the way. Also fearless tomb raider Lara Croft, among others.

snowplow:

Hollyday:

snowplow:

The MAIN issue, however, is that it is impossible to create a good female character for a few reasons:
1. The things that define a woman are either considered sexist or have no possible application in gaming
2. A good female character is often ignored by the feminists because she's not "female" enough.
3. Look at # 2, then #1, and you'll see this closes out any possibility of females being happy with women in games.

Um... seriously? Please can you enlighten me on what 'defines a woman'.

Do you have some examples of your second point?

You tell me. What, exactly, makes a good FEMALE character? Oftentimes when examples are brought up, they're accused of being good characters but their gender might as well be male, or their accused of pandering to the male demographic.

As for specific examples, I don't remember since I don't play most of the games where the examples were from, also these threads were a while ago. I do remember Alyx Vance and Samus Aran were considered to be the same as fetish characters from the semi naked women with boob physics from soul caliber. Unfortunately those are the only two examples I remember. I think the protagonist of the longest journey was one of the handful of "good" female characters the community agreed upon.

Interestingly though what people think is good by feminist standards doesn't sell to either men or women. "The Longest Journey" was nowhere near the success of things like Metroid or Half-Life.

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I'll also say that people keep tossing statistics around in this. Oddly you'll find this is a good example of how statistics are meaningless as you can find or modify statistics to say whatever you want. No matter what you think, someone probably created a statistic to "prove" what you want to believe at some point. You'll find that in arguements about women in games those taking a feminist approach of demanding industry change will either approach it from female gamers being "locked out" and pointing out how few of them there are, or saying that there are tons of female gamers, representing a substantial percentage of the market, who should be given more of a voice in what is created... depending on the needs of the moment. Is 30-50% of the gaming audience women, or is it only 4% as marked by someone's claim about sales?

In the end I maintain it's a non-issue, it exists only for people to try and get attention.

Generally speaking men are much better firefighters than women. Organic cultural perceptions are built around patterns that are generally true rather than exceptions. I prefer this organic viewpoint to PC tabula rasa nonsense.

http://kotaku.com/5886674/bioware-writer-describes-her-gaming-tastes-angry-gamers-call-her-a-cancer

http://kotaku.com/5889637/sexual-harassment-is-a-joke-to-these-fighting-game-fans

And now this. The cases of 2012 I can think on the fly. Yap, there is no problem with the gaming community being full of sexist, racist pricks, nope. *sigh*

May I point towards the comments on Kotaku as well as the comments that fell during discussing both cases on the Escapist: They give perfect examples of people protecting this behaviour. The gaming community seems to accept sexism and racism as an essential part of its culture and the few ones that try to speak out against it are thrown off with "white knighting".

Not only that, but this case here actually differs in the point that the actual goal of the woman is better intergration of female characters in the story (more than "vagina version of the action hero" or the disposeable motivation for the hero). So tell me, what did she do to offend you all so much.

Therumancer:

Interestingly though what people think is good by feminist standards doesn't sell to either men or women. "The Longest Journey" was nowhere near the success of things like Metroid or Half-Life.

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I'll also say that people keep tossing statistics around in this. Oddly you'll find this is a good example of how statistics are meaningless as you can find or modify statistics to say whatever you want. No matter what you think, someone probably created a statistic to "prove" what you want to believe at some point. You'll find that in arguements about women in games those taking a feminist approach of demanding industry change will either approach it from female gamers being "locked out" and pointing out how few of them there are, or saying that there are tons of female gamers, representing a substantial percentage of the market, who should be given more of a voice in what is created... depending on the needs of the moment. Is 30-50% of the gaming audience women, or is it only 4% as marked by someone's claim about sales?

In the end I maintain it's a non-issue, it exists only for people to try and get attention.

So you're saying that just because women write sexist characters that it's ok for sexist characters to exist? Just because women can write sexist characters is no excuse for them being as ubiquitous in games as they are.

SOCIALCONSTRUCT:
Generally speaking men are much better firefighters than women. Organic cultural perceptions are built around patterns that are generally true rather than exceptions. I prefer this organic viewpoint to PC tabula rasa nonsense.

Just because men CAN be better at firefighting, doesn't mean that we shouldn't allow women to also be firefighters. I'm sure every woman currently employed as a firefighter is better at it then I am.

Therumancer:

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I find it by far the most worrying point, and I'm willing to discuss it until the cows come home! Women are as much a part of the problem as men - by saying that I'm a feminist and that I want equal and balanced representation across all media for women, I'm by no means saying that it's men's fault that we don't have it now. You only have to look at fashion magazines which are written by and for women to know that we often do nothing to help ourselves. It's self-perpetuating: we grow up with stereotyped depictions of women in the media and so that's how we view ourselves. We then sell this back to the younger generation and the cycle goes on and on and on.... until people are educated about it. Enter Anita Sarkeesian...

snowplow:

You tell me. What, exactly, makes a good FEMALE character? Oftentimes when examples are brought up, they're accused of being good characters but their gender might as well be male, or their accused of pandering to the male demographic.

I still want to know what 'defines a woman' from your earlier post - don't back down now!

To me, a good female character is one that is made an integral part of the story and not decoration/a plot device (of course, there are many many male characters in stories who are only there for decoration/to be a plot device. My argument is that a disproportionately large number of female characters fall into this category)

Grahav:

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

How do you want to fight the problem if you don't make an effort to understand the causes?

If you don't hear the marketers, the players who like those games (as myself), the other side, it becomes just a one sided speech where you tell a group of people to shut up. And nobody likes to be told to shut up, specially when it is said that they are the cause of misoginy or some other kind of evil.

I don't follow the point you're trying to make, based on what I said.

The point is that it seemed to me that you think that what the "misogynistic" game producers thoughts about the issue are either irrelevant or non-existent. If you don't know why they make such games, how do you want to convince them to stop making them or making "gender positive" games?

More, it weakens your position if the target of your discourse discovers that you consider them as just non-thinking idiots.

Whoa, where the hell did all this come from? "Non-thinking idiots" and misogynists? These people are talented and amazing, and I talk with them all the time. That doesn't mean they don't sometimes fall into habits and forget to think outside of the box when it comes to variety in characters. It's a pretty narrow demographic among game developers, and it's easy to fall back to the default of what they personally think is "sweet" or "sexy", but it's not some evil conspiracy or even always done on purpose.

Grahav:

snowplow:

I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones.

Excellent point. It is easy to be destructive, but difficult to be creative.

An effort shold be made in this direction.

I explored this idea when I was still in school with a project I did. I looked at the design process for the TF2 cast and applied the same kind of decision making to model a couple playable female versions. I made the models downloadable to the general public, and the response I got on them has been overwhelmingly positive (even with my crappy first two ones, when I was still new to modeling.) I just finished up with the fourth one, and from the feedback I've gotten from the community, there's definitely an interest in having variety along with having straight up fan-service.

But making good female characters shouldn't be any different than making good characters of any kind. They deserve the same exploration, research and variety as any other thought-out character. Relying too hard tropes and derivative material makes for boring characters, male or female, and I think that's an area of game development that needs more creativity and broader backgrounds.

JerrytheBullfrog:

Father Time:

JerrytheBullfrog:

Nobody says that the victims of genocide are at fault for what happened to them, or that they should have done more to fight the genocide, or doubts that there was any such genocide that actually took place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_denial

Also I don't see why I should stop telling jokes just because other people (people I'm not telling the jokes too) believe stupid things.

I don't actually know any rape jokes that have victim blaming.

Those are denied by a handful of lone crazies who are ostracized by society.

Rape victims are challenged BY society.

Try again.

Blablahb:

JerrytheBullfrog:
From what I've read of your "arguments" here, I most certainly know enough about you to judge that you are, in fact, supporting rape culture

Then you are shameless, without any form of decency, out of your mind, and not worth responding to. Go away and take your accusations of people supporting rape elsewhere.

But as it happens, thanks for proving feminists are indeed insane.

Awwww, I'm sowwy, did I huwt your pwecious fee-fees? The idea that your actions and words could be indirectly supporting a culture that trivializes rape sucks, doesn't it? You know what sucks more? Being on the other end of that culture.

You just keep digging your hole deeper, bucko. And btw, thanks for inserting "rape" where I say "rape culture" to twist my words into an argument you can more easily defend against with indignation. That's not underhanded at all.

I am telling you. I have fucking seen the consequences of my actions. As a guy who used to be as fucking willfully blind as you, I have seen rape culture for a fact. That you refuse to listen and consider becoming a better person is wholly on your shoulders, not mine.

Society and the media seem to jump on their side a lot. See duke lacrosse where everyone immediately assumed the college kids were guilty until it became painfully clear they weren't. I can't think of a big shitstorm where everyone sided with the accused.

Also saying you support something is saying you are actively rooting for it which he is not.

Rock, Paper Shotgun published a good editorial about this issue.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/06/13/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games-vs-the-internet/

Two parts I thought to highlight:

rhizhim:

socialistmath:

Father Time:
Which reminds me I'm still waiting for you to prove that telling rape jokes to people who want to hear them does harm.

Because it perpetuates the rape culture. Because it perpetuates the harmful cultural attitudes that allow rape to happen so often and that make it difficult for rape victims to report their abuse. Because you don't fucking joke about rape.

you could add that the groping is ok attitude comming from games and anime in japan desensitized it

Prove that they became desensitized through the games.

It sounds like all those people claiming Doom must've desensitized the Columbine shooters.

And by the way just because the subway stations thought it was a big problem doesn't mean it's a big problem. Just like everyone else they aren't immune from overreacting.

The stats they had in the articles were better at showing the problem.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 . . . 35 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Register for a free account here