Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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Oskuro:

Blablahb:
What about the causes that the good ones among those studies who actually look for causality ussually find? Those are generally that women don't negotiate for a raise as hard as men do, are too soft or pushy in management, more prone to interupt their careers and want to work in parttime more often and other personal factors.

All those things are personal choice, not some form of oppression.

No, you justifying that because individuals have diferent outlooks in life they shouldn't be treated equally is a form of opression. You linking individual choices to gender is straight-out discrimination.

Welcome to the world of misogyny.

Come to think of it I've never really encountered any study which proven institutionalised discrimination against women on a labour market in any egalitarian western society [snip]
So my first question ussually is: Discrimination against women? Nice. Be the first to show us where it is please?

Sure, simple Google search returns this in the top of the list:

http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm

And a quote:

Despite a sense of continued progress toward gender equality in the workplace, the federal government has confirmed that the workplace earnings gap between men and women still persists today.

According to Government Accountability Office (GAO) Report GAO-04-35, the weekly earnings of full-time working women were about three-fourths of men's during 2001. The report was prepared from a study of the earnings history of over 9,300 Americans for the last 18 years.

Found that among others, on the top of the list. But if that is too complex, here's a simplified global vision: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality

You also said:

Don't please don't respond with general statements if you fail to turn up said examples okay? It happens too often people search, can't find evidence of institutionalised discrimination, and then resort to 'but don't you know I'm right?!' type of statements because they can't admit that they were just assuming the existance of such discrimination.

If you couldn't find these as simply as I have, I'm betting you either didn't look, or didn't care for results that didn't fit your wordlview, so you resort to general statements as you cannot provide examples.

Welcome also to being a hypocrite.

I personally just love how belligerant men are in this thread about the evils of women and their secret agendas. Last time I checked, all your mothers, sisters, nieces daughters or girlfriends/wives happen to be women. That's really how you feel about them?

We're talking about people here, not some strange alien species with mishapen torsos. Start showing some empathy, or just lock yourself away where you can't hurt anyone else with your venomous attitudes.

History has been unkind to women, and that is proven fact. If attempts to rectify these historical attitudes somehow threathen you... Then your self esteem is really worthless.

the reason the wage gape exists is because of the different choices that men and women make regarding their careers.

http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf

SUMMARY:

Extant economic research has identified numerous factors that contribute to the gender wage gap.
Many of the factors relate to differences in the choices and behavior of women and men in balancing
their work, personal, and family lives. These factors include, most notably, the occupations and
industries in which they work, and their human capital development, work experience, career
interruptions, and motherhood. Other factors are sources of wage adjustments that compensate specific
groups of workers for benefits or duties that disproportionately impact them. Such factors for which
empirical evidence has been developed include health insurance, other fringe benefits, and overtime
work.
It is not possible to produce a reliable quantitative estimate of the aggregate portion of the raw gender
wage gap for which the explanatory factors that have been identified account. Nevertheless, it can
confidently be concluded that, collectively, those factors account for a major portion and, possibly,
almost all of the raw gender wage gap.

It baffles me that anyone can look at all of this and still not think the subject of the treatment of women in games/this community still isn't a topic worth discussing.

Trekkie:
those factors account for a major portion and, possibly, almost all of the raw gender wage gap.

Just want to chime in about the wage gap. Taken as an aggregate, the various studies conclude that (at least in America) there's about a 25% wage gap, 50%-20% is unaccounted for even when correcting for factors like lifestyle choice, education, etc. So, while we have thus far been very successful in closing the wage gap, it would be overstating the conclusions of most research on the subject to say we have been completely successful.

OtherSideofSky:
I'm interested in hearing what she has to say for the "man with boobs" episode. I've heard this criticism leveled before, but I've never heard anyone back it up in any meaningful way. It usually strikes me as the people who are invested in complaining about female characters finally getting one who isn't shoved into the usual female stereotype boxes and realizing how shitty most male characters actually are.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence. I'm not saying people shouldn't be talking about how female characters are portrayed, but why is no one doing the same for male characters? The closest I've ever heard someone come to that was as an aside during that PAX "women in games" event.

Does anyone think that their might be a direct relation between female characters getting stuck in these stereotypical roles and the same happening with male characters? Is there any merit to a more holistic approach? "Gender roles in video games" as to just "women in games" or "men in games"?

good point i'll say what it most likely is BAD Writing. Honestly stereotypes continue to exist because bad writer exists(heres an experiment outside of Bioware and Obsidian how many games can you say where written well then compare them to games that where badly written) As for the reason why we never hear complaints about male stereotypes if i had to take a guess is because that would fall under a men rights organization while they no doubt do exist(in this day in age i pretty sure their is a group campaigning for the rights of cupcakes). Its just that they are auto label mysigonics. That and most of the time its often times auto counter with men complaining about sexism towards men is like a white guy complaining about racism towards white men. Finally if you polled 100 people how many of them would honestly take you seriously when you say "Sexism exists towards men too". As i said at the start the relation to women getting stuck in stereotypical roles and men having the same thing happening to them too is due to bad writing.

ayvee:
It baffles me that anyone can look at all of this and still not think the subject of the treatment of women in games/this community still isn't a topic worth discussing.

Yeah but it's not the right jumping off point. If and it has been the jumping off point in women in games has been more about why women aren't as involved in the video game industry where as the subject would heavily involve traveling and actually interviewing hiring managers or publishers and developers then it actually would be a topic discussing.

However the jumping off point and pre-drawn conclusion of the project is this...

The video game industry is sexist today and I'm going to use tropes to demonstrate how women are oppressed.

Seems harmless but then you have to actually consider the people who were actually involved in creating or at the very least using said tropes. Simply put by her video series if you sat down and watched it this youtuber likes to paint very broad strokes when calling people misogynistic from movie directors so it wouldn't be too far off of a stretch for her to say this.

"Miyamoto, the creator of Mario and Zelda is sexist"

Now will she actually say that? No, but when she wants to use Princess Toadstool/Peach or Zelda as the "damsel in distress" it would be intellectually dishonest for her to simply give a pass at the very people responsible for designing and creating the game in the first place that uses a very negative trope that oppresses women.

Also do note that this is an example of a game series created in the 1980's not in 2012.

One of the big problems with her project is that while she wants to talk about tropes she is going to pussy out(see what I did there?) and not actually hold the actual people involved and call them sexist. Now note that she has no problem calling the internet sexist and even baited her video description as this: "If you post a troll comment it will only affirm that there is sexism in video games". Now note that she actually hasn't done any of the work and has a pre-drawn conclusion just from people who were baited and trolled by the person who created the project in the first place. Which is also ironic considering if she was actually a feminist she wouldn't play the victim either. So there are certainly moments that have already been proven by her own actions that she has a clear cut bias without any actual hesitation to address her bias.

If anything the real problem here is that she really isn't doing anything to help the video game industry but instead harm the video game industry. Imagine if she actually could model the video game industry her way. So we get rid of all these negative tropes that oppresses women what do we really have left? Okay so no Mario, Zelda, Lara Croft, Hammer(from Fable 2), Mai, Chun-li, Amy Rose, Faith, Elika, every other female fighting character(including poison), and the list can simply go on if I really wanted to. Needless to say we would be wiping out a good core of the foundation that made the video game industry the video game industry and more importantly we would be essentially tying the hands of publishers and developers on what actual content they would like to create. Want to make any more damsel in distress characters? Newp can't have that. Want to have unrealistic heroes and villains both good looking and ugly? Newp can't have that.

Wanna know what we are left with in terms of games and even that game would be banned due to sexism? Lester the Unlikely.

I'm sorry but I'd much rather for better or for worse have the good and the bad when it comes to the video game industry and allow developers and publishers to make what games they want and have every single tool available and every single narrative tool possible when creating a whole new world. I'd much rather be roaming the Mushroom Kingdom rescuing a princess and being told that Miyamoto and I are oppressing women than having to ask this youtuber what games I'm allowed to play is okay. Hell if it were up to her the Japanese video game industry and the H-game market wouldn't even exist. As much as it makes people cringe when they hear the title rapelay but when it comes to H-Games and the massive amount of narration involved in creating those games it takes a lot of work and there is a demographic that wants it.

Now if you will excuse me I'm off to play Recettear and Chantelise. Where I get to play little girls on big adventures.

Tenmar:

ayvee:
snip

snip

Yes, your clever anatomy jokes are terribly impressive. First of all, have you actually seen her video series? It's hardly aggressive and is made of mostly very positive, constructive criticism delivered in a calm, rational, and by no means condescending way. She also goes out of her way in each episode to point out that tropes are not inherently harmful but that their overuse makes them cliche. Which is still not inherently harmful but is creatively bankrupt. So no one is opting for the full removal of these things, but rather to have other options. That's all anyone wants when we're calling for change in the videogame industry. Beyond that, I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Presupposing she won't address creators in a show about videogame deconstruction? "Playing the victim" when she's the recipient of everything that happened on YT, wikipedia vandalism by way of pornography, and more threats on Facebook, twitter, etc? Those things not being indicative of sexism? Deeper and/or more varied characters being harmful rather than helpful to the industry? And you accuse her of addressing this issue in the wrong way, which seems to suppose that the discussion of writing tropes has no value? I'm sorry, but you just seem to be misguided here.

Trekkie:
my problem with it is that everyone seems to assume that just because the person is female then they cant be capable of anything bad and whatever she says must be the truth.

We both have the same problem: cases not being tried solely on their own merits. However, we are citing different influences, you the societal notion that women are more trustworthy and I the societal notion that women are less trustworthy. Both of these are things that ought to be nullified in the course of a case, but I think the societal notion that women are less trustworthy may be the more prevalent one, owing to the prevalence of Christianity (women are rarely virtuous, and when they are it is seldom of their own intentions), though yours may be present as well (probably more due to a patronizing sense that women are somehow less capable of misdirection)

I also agree that women who sexually predate on men are equally culpable and ought to be punished, but alas, there is still sexism in the world.

Furthermore concerning the instances of rape which are unsubstantiated due to the victim not speaking out soon enough, the statistic may be exaggerated, but are you really saying that no crime occurs that is not reported, or that doesn't have enough evidence to win at trial? Especially with something as emotionally charged as rape, I could see at least half of the occurrences of it going unreported or failing at trial due to time elapsed.

Professor James:
A bit off topic but can someone tell me why people are using judaism as a derogatory term?

because people are jackass honestly welcome to the internet where most of the time this is the place where common decency go to die.

Eh I dont like this kickstart idea. What we need is to fund THIS kickstart video project that is going research how men are portrayed in video games.

Seriously I am tired of us guys being portrayed as bloodthirsty fucking machines.

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

JerrytheBullfrog:

Father Time:

JerrytheBullfrog:

Those are denied by a handful of lone crazies who are ostracized by society.

Rape victims are challenged BY society.

Try again.

Awwww, I'm sowwy, did I huwt your pwecious fee-fees? The idea that your actions and words could be indirectly supporting a culture that trivializes rape sucks, doesn't it? You know what sucks more? Being on the other end of that culture.

You just keep digging your hole deeper, bucko. And btw, thanks for inserting "rape" where I say "rape culture" to twist my words into an argument you can more easily defend against with indignation. That's not underhanded at all.

I am telling you. I have fucking seen the consequences of my actions. As a guy who used to be as fucking willfully blind as you, I have seen rape culture for a fact. That you refuse to listen and consider becoming a better person is wholly on your shoulders, not mine.

Society and the media seem to jump on their side a lot. See duke lacrosse where everyone immediately assumed the college kids were guilty until it became painfully clear they weren't. I can't think of a big shitstorm where everyone sided with the accused.

Also saying you support something is saying you are actively rooting for it which he is not.

So soon we forget the lessons of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, eh?

Most people believed the woman iirc, I think there was a guy on Fox who said differently and that's it.

hentropy:

Father Time:

hentropy:
instead of an older woman who might be just as capable, or even a small group of people. Why not a story about a mom trying to lead her kid(s) through the end times? It feels wrong to most people because guys can be the only ones who are strong and resilient enough to provide leadership in such a situation, where women always have to be under their wing.

I hate the implication that fiction needs quotas in their characters.

Having the protagonist be a women (and especially her mother) would change their relationship and how they interact with each other. It would be a different story.

It would probably make the story something fresh, interesting, and more enjoyable to sit through than another game about a male leading a girl through a dangerous world. It's not about quotas and doing things for the sake of it, it's about going over uncovered territory and progressing the medium.

Just because it's using a new formula doesn't mean it'll be good and likewise if something is using an old formula that doesn't mean the story will be bad.

Look at GTA, they've had the same formula for most of their recent games. A financially poor man reluctantly joins/is pushed into the world of crime and must climb the ladder of the criminal underworld to get into a better spot in life.

And yet the writing in some of them is awesome! The GTA IV mission "that special someone" is by far my favorite moment in the game and that mission had no challenge and was just pure story (and if you haven't played the game it has nothing to do with romance).

Hell I've seen game stories about people with plot convenient amnesia that were done really well.

All that said I'd be more likely to consider a game if it did have a new idea, but you can still have great writing while relying on a formula (like Tarantino).

Marik2:
Eh I dont like this kickstart idea. What we need is to fund THIS kickstart video project that is going research how men are portrayed in video games.

Seriously I am tired of us guys being portrayed as bloodthirsty fucking machines.

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

Nice satire.

Well except for this part
"Double standards- Why is it okay to see women killing men, but the other way around is met with criticism?"

I'm guessing this is a response to the Hitman trailer. Nobody had a problem with 47 killing women, the problem was all the women were in sexy outfits for no real reason.

Beyond that I don't know what he could be talking about. Maybe it's the "men are the expendable gender" trope but that looks like it's covered in cannon fodder.

You know I went and watched some of this lady's other videos and while she makes some good points in some of them, she is waaay off base in others.

She also appears to censor the comments on her other videos to control the debate and allows pretty much only comments that reinforce her ideas.

Mygaffer:
You know I went and watched some of this lady's other videos and while she makes some good points in some of them, she is waaay off base in others.

She also appears to censor the comments on her other videos to control the debate and allows pretty much only comments that reinforce her ideas.

See that's what most people who actually give a proper dissent find obscure about this situation.

If she her standard method is so reliant upon censorship then why now the ONE time she starts a kickstarter project does she suddenly allow complete free commentary from Youtube?

Also I find it odd that she expected people to be volatile but here is where things get even more suspicious.

NOTE ON COMMENTS & TRIGGER WARNING: I've left the comments open on this video as a way of showing why this topic is so important. I apologize in advance for the hate speech and ignorance that will inevitably be left below. So don't feed the trolls - they are just proving to everyone that sexism in gaming is indeed a huge problem.

So not only was she expecting them but she uses them as a proof that for some reason ad hominem attacks are legitimate that sexism in gaming is a problem. I'm sorry but that doesn't many any sort of logical connection and if it was so important then does that mean all of her previous work wasn't so important when women were being oppressed as she calls directors and toy companies sexist? Things just don't add up. Also the last sentence is basically her baiting people to intentionally act like an asshole to just act like an asshole. It's basic reverse psychology. Finally if the ad hominem attacks are proof that video games are sexist then why does she need to bother doing this video series anyway? Okay video games and the video game industry from Miyamoto and Nintendo to Sony and Microsoft and video game developers are all sexist companies cause random people of the internet insulted her. I really doubt anyone here is actually going to side with her and if they actually meet people like Cliff Blezinski, Miyamoto, Kojima to actually call them sexist to their face especially this woman.

A lesson in logic she needs.

There are just too many contradictions with the way she runs her channel and her attitude up until now. Basically to me she just played with the hearts of people who play video games and played the intentional victim for money.

Trekkie:

conflictofinterests:

Trekkie:

first off, how do you record something that isn't reported? because don't you need to report something in order for someone to know its happened? or can you read minds now.

Mostly because rapists are known to be repeat offenders, and while it only takes one woman to come forward to put him into jail, he can get away with numerous rapes before that one woman comes forward. And while many women will tell SOMEONE else about what occurred, a good number of them can't find the courage to come to court with evidence, or when they do, the hesitation on their part reflects not a deep inner turmoil (to do with religious perceptions of purity, and American perceptions of self-sufficiency, and a questioning of whether there was anything more she could have done to stop it) to the judge and jury, but dishonesty. Your statement, that women can lie, reflects this blame-the-victim bias so common in rape cases.

It is odd to me, that someone can accuse someone of measurable physical abuse, and when the measurements are taken and it proves that no physical abuse has occurred, that person is labled a liar or a madperson, but when that physical abuse happens to be rape, and the supposed victim happens to be a woman, it is not just that person who is the liar or the madperson, but everyone of that gender as well. Why not everyone of that complexion, or haircolor, or eyecolor, or stature?

I said women can lie not that every woman is a liar if one of them dose. my problem with it is that everyone seems to assume that just because the person is female then they cant be capable of anything bad and whatever she says must be the truth. like how if a male teacher sleeps with one of his purples he, as he should, goes to prison. However if a female teacher (Sarah Jones in this case) sleeps with one of her purples then dose she go to prison... nope.... she gets set free and gets a playboy shoot instead. same crime vastly different consequences.

And another thing, the whole less than 10% of rapists never see prison thing..... wouldn't that be because the court didn't find enough evidence to be able to convict the suspect. Maybe some of those rape cases where false accusations? (and it happens quite a lot, http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html) maybe they got the wrong man ETC, what I find troubling is this assumption that if a man is accused then he must be guilty. why would someone lie?

also when someone step forward, for any crime, and says they did that to me.... 3 years ago, then we should take that with some salt because there will be minuscule to no evidence of that actually happening and frankly, if someone doesn't have evidence, why should i believe them? unless you have proof then you should not say that that crime was committed i don't care if its in court or stats it is not right to say something happened when you have little to no proof that it did. Frankly the whole 95% of rape isn't reported thing, doesn't hold water, because even a year or so down the line, you have no proof that it happened apart from what the alleged victim says and that isn't proof, that's an accusation.

and im sorry but asking for proof is NOT blaming the victim its trying to dercern the truth.

Asking for proof is not blaming the victim. Trying to undermine her credibility at every turn is. (She shouldn't have had a drink / she had agreed to sex with him before / she was kissing him, etc)

Also, it's estimated that the number of false rape accusations is around 6% or so. About the same amount as false accusations for any other crime.

Father Time:

JerrytheBullfrog:

Father Time:

Society and the media seem to jump on their side a lot. See duke lacrosse where everyone immediately assumed the college kids were guilty until it became painfully clear they weren't. I can't think of a big shitstorm where everyone sided with the accused.

Also saying you support something is saying you are actively rooting for it which he is not.

So soon we forget the lessons of Dominique Strauss-Kahn, eh?

Most people believed the woman iirc, I think there was a guy on Fox who said differently and that's it.

Oh come on. You don't remember the dozens of people trying to dig up SOME dirt on her, impugning her character as though it makes her accusations of rape any less valid? You don't remember the hundreds of people leaping to DSK's defense? You don't remember that the case was dropped before ever fucking seeing court despite a preponderance of evidence?

I completely agree with you Tenmar. I almost bought into it until I dug a little deeper.

animehermit:

Therumancer:

Interestingly though what people think is good by feminist standards doesn't sell to either men or women. "The Longest Journey" was nowhere near the success of things like Metroid or Half-Life.

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I'll also say that people keep tossing statistics around in this. Oddly you'll find this is a good example of how statistics are meaningless as you can find or modify statistics to say whatever you want. No matter what you think, someone probably created a statistic to "prove" what you want to believe at some point. You'll find that in arguements about women in games those taking a feminist approach of demanding industry change will either approach it from female gamers being "locked out" and pointing out how few of them there are, or saying that there are tons of female gamers, representing a substantial percentage of the market, who should be given more of a voice in what is created... depending on the needs of the moment. Is 30-50% of the gaming audience women, or is it only 4% as marked by someone's claim about sales?

In the end I maintain it's a non-issue, it exists only for people to try and get attention.

So you're saying that just because women write sexist characters that it's ok for sexist characters to exist? Just because women can write sexist characters is no excuse for them being as ubiquitous in games as they are.

No, it's because the characters aren't sexist in the least. In the end both men and women wind up wanting the same basic things, the genders aren't as radically differant as many people want to pretend. When you get down to it, a feminist arguement comes down to anything that men like being inherantly wrong, or demeaning. At the end of the day women strive for a physical ideal the same way men do. With that physical ideal comes a desire to show it off, and this comes through in the characters that possess it. When it comes to fantasy you have both male and female characters doing the same basic things, and ultimatly in much the same way.

At the end of the day there really isn't much of a differance between Lara Croft and Indiana Jones for example, they both do pretty much the same thing albiet with somewhat differant underlying motivations. Both characters do the quintessential action thing, and are drop dead gorgeous to the opposite gender (and yes, Harrison Ford has been a sex symbol for a long time). Lara however gets flak because it's a female character and appealing to men, where you generally don't see men coming out and saying that the way how Indy/Harrison Ford is a sex symbol to women is demeaning to men.

The big differance is that women can get attention by going off about media, where guys generally can't. As a result, whenever someone wants a platform, or five minutes of fame, this is a decent target.

Understand also, it's not a case with a few women creating 'sexist' characters... it's simply about reality and what women actually want to see, and how little an issue there actually is. We're not talking about a fringe here, I'm pointing to some of the biggest and most prolific creators of women's fantasy there are out there. These are the ladies the define it, and are successful for giving the female audience what it wants. There isn't much room to argue, it makes it incredibly obvious that our rampaging vlogger is totally off base.

Hollyday:

Therumancer:

A point I keep making which people don't want to address since it pretty much shuts down every arguement is to look at what women create for themselves and aim at a female audience. You'll quickly notice that these "negative tropes" and some of the most criticized female characters are par for the course.

I find it by far the most worrying point, and I'm willing to discuss it until the cows come home! Women are as much a part of the problem as men - by saying that I'm a feminist and that I want equal and balanced representation across all media for women, I'm by no means saying that it's men's fault that we don't have it now. You only have to look at fashion magazines which are written by and for women to know that we often do nothing to help ourselves. It's self-perpetuating: we grow up with stereotyped depictions of women in the media and so that's how we view ourselves. We then sell this back to the younger generation and the cycle goes on and on and on.... until people are educated about it. Enter Anita Sarkeesian...

Actually the thing is there is no problem. The success of the creators I mentioned is due to the fact that they produce what the audience wants. I'm not talking about people on the fringes either, but some of the most prolific and popular creators aiming at women within the fantasy genere. This is what women want, not what they are being forced to consume, or brain washed into. At the end of the day it's all pretty straightforward, physical ideals from the protaganists, typically not being either shy or vain about that ideal, and going out and actively doing exciting things within the genere. It's exactly the same for both men and women. At the end of the day men and women really aren't all that differant, there is nothing sexist involved, it's just human.

The entire arguement being made here boils down to the position that if men like something or find it appealing, then it must be wrong.

What's more with women by the millions buying books, and supporting TV shows like True Blood to make the creators I mentioned what they are (we're not talking about a fringe) it's pretty obvious that the bottom line is people like our crusading Vlogger trying to pretty much tell the majority they are wrong, and that they should have a differant attitude, and want something differant. If taken seriously it's pretty much "I know better than you, so you should change to want what I say you should want", but in the final equasion I don't think it's even a genuine attempt to do that, so much as it is an attempt to get attention.

Women already have a balanced portrayal throughout the media. You have female characters doing all of the same stuff male chartacters are doing throughout science fiction and fantasy. Yes, female characters are generally portrayed as being drop dead sexy, but the same can be said of male characters. Lara Croft is a sex symbol, but so is Indiana Jones. Granted the sex appeal can be packaged a bit differantly, but it's still there. Harrison Ford, William Shatner, Tom Cruise, Sean Connery, all action/genere guys who owe a lot of their success to being eye candy for the ladies.

There is no issue here, women are just as fairly represented accross media as men are, movies, TV, video games, etc.. At this point if someone does not like the tropes that's a personal matter for them, not an issue that deserves a platform to call for massive reforms.

Also on a differant, but connected note, the issue of "physical ideals" in the media is something that affects both genders. Women get more press for the whole schtick of trying to force themselves to be slim and pretty to fit a fantasy ideal, but the problem is just as bad for guys and ties into the whole "steroid crisis" with guys trying to pump their muscle definition up to the level of movie or video game he-men and such. Women try and claim this as being something special that only applies to them, and it's not.

At the end of the day physical ideals exist in the media because they are fun, and that's what entertainment is all about. Sure, not many guys or girls are going to look like that, which is why it's impressive, and helps create the suspension of disbelief that they can do whatever crazy things the fantasy requires to work. People embrace the media to get away from the ordinary and argueing that the media should only involve ordinary people kind of defeats the purpose. When your dealing with billions of people on the planet, and the population increasing every day, it's not surprising that a few are going to be absolute freaks and destroy themselves doing stupid things. With so many bloody people on the planet "a few"
can amount to some pretty staggering numbers. That is not to say that striving for an ideal is "stupid", it only becomes so when people take it to the point of self destruction, self improvement is generally a good thing. Just becayuse there are girls who kill themselves with purging and botox, and guys who explode their hearts with 'roids trying to look like a He-Man action figure does not mean there is actually an issue... just that there are stupid people, whose deaths will be exploited for purposes of sensationalism.

Wait...am I wrong or is the sexist portrayal of some women in video games used to exploit a male demographic? Wouldn't that mean its using sex appeal of artificial characters to exploit men for bigger profit and making men a victim as well?
Thus the image of women has been damaged but is used to trick real men out of real money and also providing them with a possible biased/sexist view of women. I do realize this works both ways but games are marketed more towards men making us the intended victims.

In this regard Men are also a victim of male gender stereotypes in games as well. It is depressing that I don't have the physique of any of the male video game heroes. Probably the same for women.

I don't want to start a fight but I am curious about this.

Also what can actually be done about it other than a direct boycott or asking them nice to stop, even the most impressive speech or rant about a problem without a viable solution is just whining right?

Wow, more than 1001 posts arguing about gender issues.
I believe we do need that documentary...

Therumancer:
snip

You put your argument really persuasively but I really couldn't disagree with you more. I don't see how anyone can say that the portrayal of women across the media is balanced.

There are too many possible examples to look at this through, but one which illustrates the point well is this:

There is one female character in the top 20 (Ripley at number 9).

Don't you think that's, well, really really odd? Surely there should be a pretty 50/50 split? Even if it was mostly men voting (which I believe it was) it's still possible to identify with female characters. Why such the vast difference?

I think it's because there just aren't as many memorable roles written for women in films. Female characters are often portrayed as tired cliches in even the most worthy, interesting, fun films. I voted in this poll - you had to submit your 5 favourite characters - and all my choices were men. I'm finding it really hard even now to think of any female characters who might deserve a place on this list. Is that because women aren't as interesting as men? aren't as heroic? aren't as easy to identify with? of course not. It's because these great, iconic roles just aren't written for women. A woman in the vast majority of films is there to be eye-candy, to provide momentum for the plot (like her being kidnapped/attacked/killed), to be a love-interest or just be there as a token nod to prove that they are aware that women exist.

This isn't the situation because we want it to be - how could anyone think that it's normal to ignore/marginalise 50% of the earth's population in this way? - it's the way it is because this is the way it's always been and no one is trying to change it. Your comment that everything is fine as it is and by making writers include more women we would somehow take away from the experience is absurd: how can we possibly know that until we try? As a woman I know that I want this to change - however, I know that many other men and women don't see a problem at all. That's fine. There will always be these types of films for you to enjoy. But surely equal representation is not just entitled whining, it's what needs to happen?

On a quicker note, your point about male stereotypes, with muscles and steroids etc. is valid up until a point but there is a big difference between a sexualised character and a power fantasy. Early posts on this thread explain that much better than I could though.

I saw this Kickstarter with my girlfriend the other day and I in many ways agree, we need better female characters in video games. I'm an avid gamer and I'm intrigued to watch the standard female characters deconstructed to their archetypes. We also watched many of her videos, very few times did I feel that I disagreed with Anita Sarkeesian. She puts quite a lot of work into getting the info for many of her videos and I'm very glad that the (hopefully) minority wont scare her into backing down!

I would argue it's wrong to focus on one particular set of sterotypes. Women? Nah, men, blacks, whites, old and young all get stereotyped. To focus on just gender is narrow-minded. And there is the danger of reading too much into things, not to discourage careful observation and investigation.

The example of over-analysing shown in my psychology class, for instance, was researchers deeply looking into the meanings of song lyrics and then realising upon polling the students listening to them, they didn't even make out the lyrics or really care about them half of the time, they just liked the beat.

If you're taught to see sexism, racism as particular things... you might see them everywhere, even in some cases, when they're not there.

Spearmaster:
Wait...am I wrong or is the sexist portrayal of some women in video games used to exploit a male demographic? Wouldn't that mean its using sex appeal of artificial characters to exploit men for bigger profit and making men a victim as well?
Thus the image of women has been damaged but is used to trick real men out of real money and also providing them with a possible biased/sexist view of women.

Men are not slaves to their libido they can still decide not to buy porn and/or sexy pictures of women.

bat32391:
What the hell is "rape culture" anyway?

The idea that our culture encourages or causes rape or is cruel to rape victims or whatever.

In practice when they some piece of fiction supports rape culture it's the "violent video games desensitize people to violence" argument, only now it's about rape and they're using different terminology.

Father Time:

bat32391:
What the hell is "rape culture" anyway?

The idea that our culture encourages or causes rape or is cruel to rape victims or whatever.

In practice when they some piece of fiction supports rape culture it's the "violent video games desensitize people to violence" argument, only now it's about rape and they're using different terminology.

It's more about normalizing Rape, the constant reference to rape for not that bad things ("oh man i got raped in Sunwell last night" etc) or the idea that rape victims probably deserved it by dressing slutty etc. Making the Victims have a much MUCH harder time dealing or even admitting that they were raped. I have personally experienced something like this happening to a friend of mine, It did NOT end well.

TBH "Rape Culture" is an issue but because every time someone mentions anything close to it shit like this happens its one that will continue on. Also I on a lesser problem, Off topic for this thread.

Marik2:
Eh I dont like this kickstart idea. What we need is to fund THIS kickstart video project that is going research how men are portrayed in video games.

Seriously I am tired of us guys being portrayed as bloodthirsty fucking machines.

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

Why not simply donate to both? They're essentially doing the same thing.

Father Time:

bat32391:
What the hell is "rape culture" anyway?

The idea that our culture encourages or causes rape or is cruel to rape victims or whatever.

In practice when they some piece of fiction supports rape culture it's the "violent video games desensitize people to violence" argument, only now it's about rape and they're using different terminology.

I generally buy into the argument that society trivializes rape a little too often, but one thing I've never understood is how feminists consider popular fiction to be pro-rape. In almost every depiction of rape I've seen in a game or a film, it is portrayed as detestable, horrific crime. I don't see how that contributes to the claim that society encourages rape. Rape is certainly overused in fiction as a cheap, hackneyed way to motivate a "strong woman" and establish villains, but I don't see that as quite the same thing.

Goodness me, this must be one of the longest threads I've ever participated in.

Oskuro:
Sure, simple Google search returns this in the top of the list:
http://usgovinfo.about.com/cs/censusstatistic/a/womenspay.htm

Correlation and causality are not the same.

Like I wrote: Please don't respond with general statements if you fail to turn up said examples okay?

Ok, just finished watching all of feministfrequency's videos. I must say the creep factor on the creep-o-metre has gone WAY up. Why this person is garnering $100,000 plus from donations, it just doesn't seem right.

Since someone mentioned it:

Good female characters in movies:

Ripley

Nurse Ratchett

Ursula (The little Mermaid)

Arielle

Maleficia (also Disney)

Natural Born Killers, the female protagonist

The Bride, Kill Bill

The asian mob leader, Kill Bill

The girl that escapes Landa and later on torches the Führer - Inglorious Basterds

The female spy that leads Brad Pitt to the movie theater with the Führer - Inglorious Basterds

Sein oder Nichtsein - female lead

Hermione Granger

The mother from "The Shining"

(I am really bad with names, it's got nothing to do with them being women, I simply can not remember names...)

How did this get to be such a thing? : | Both on youtube and in this 29 page thread. I don't see the fuss either way, the 'documentary' looks harmlessly bland and a little bit of an exercise in listing and finger-wagging than an actual documentary but there are loads of these out there. Kickstarter is full of content like this and its not really a problem for anyone apart from people donating.

I don't see what's got people so riled up. I can see why people are getting a little concerned about the comments, i guess that's the real story here, but i don't see why anyone would care enough about this to write about it. Barring the actual response its a non story.

Booze Zombie:
I would argue it's wrong to focus on one particular set of sterotypes. Women? Nah, men, blacks, whites, old and young all get stereotyped. To focus on just gender is narrow-minded. And there is the danger of reading too much into things, not to discourage careful observation and investigation.

The example of over-analysing shown in my psychology class, for instance, was researchers deeply looking into the meanings of song lyrics and then realising upon polling the students listening to them, they didn't even make out the lyrics or really care about them half of the time, they just liked the beat.

If you're taught to see sexism, racism as particular things... you might see them everywhere, even in some cases, when they're not there.

Isn't that like saying that you shouldn't study the second world war in a history lesson because it's only one small part of history and that's narrow-minded. You should study ALL HISTORY in this lesson! Hey, the lesson is only an hour, but I'm sure we can squeeze everything in.

It would be a narrow-minded view if only stereotypes of women were acknowledged. They're not. At no point does the video-maker say that the only problem in video games is sexism against women. But in a short series of videos it isn't possible to cover all the stereotypes which are present in the industry, or the media as a whole, and it would be extremely daft to try. I'm interested to see these videos, just as I'd be interested to see a video series on homophobia, racism, elitism, ageism or any other -ism you care to mention.

Your over-analysing point is spot-on and it happens a lot. However, ignoring things does nothing. What's worse: bringing legitimate issues to people's attention and risk a couple of people over-analysing, or never saying anything and letting things go on as they always have. As long as we have intelligent people critiquing the media and the critics themselves I don't feel that 'over-analysing' is as big of a problem as many others do.

Father Time:

hentropy:

Father Time:

I hate the implication that fiction needs quotas in their characters.

Having the protagonist be a women (and especially her mother) would change their relationship and how they interact with each other. It would be a different story.

It would probably make the story something fresh, interesting, and more enjoyable to sit through than another game about a male leading a girl through a dangerous world. It's not about quotas and doing things for the sake of it, it's about going over uncovered territory and progressing the medium.

Just because it's using a new formula doesn't mean it'll be good and likewise if something is using an old formula that doesn't mean the story will be bad.

Look at GTA, they've had the same formula for most of their recent games. A financially poor man reluctantly joins/is pushed into the world of crime and must climb the ladder of the criminal underworld to get into a better spot in life.

And yet the writing in some of them is awesome! The GTA IV mission "that special someone" is by far my favorite moment in the game and that mission had no challenge and was just pure story (and if you haven't played the game it has nothing to do with romance).

Hell I've seen game stories about people with plot convenient amnesia that were done really well.

All that said I'd be more likely to consider a game if it did have a new idea, but you can still have great writing while relying on a formula (like Tarantino).

It's true that it could have a good story, but the story really isn't the issue in this case. I don't really know the story outside of "Extraordinarily Capable Grizzled Nathan Drake Clone Leads Cute Young Girl Through the Collapse of Civilization." Is it possible it could be a good game with good mechanics and an insightful story, I'm just not holding my breath or waiting for more trailers or a release date, to me it's just another hackneyed game about armageddon.

I wouldn't label GTAIV as a bastion of good storytelling (can you say forced melodrama?), but the thing about a game like that is that it can have its moments because it's a bit more open-ended. In this case I don't know what else they would talk about other than Nathan Drake teaching younger Zoey how to survive with subtext about younger Zoey grounding Nathan Drake in reality and making him realize there's still innocence in the world and things worth protecting. If it's radically different than that, I will be surprised.

My issue here isn't just one game, however. This whole argument has been about how games really aren't that bad on gender issues and people need to stop complaining about it and how the vast majority of gamers and developers have no lingering problems with women, over-sexualization, and reinforcement of negative stereotypes.

But yet we get the Hitman controversy, Lolipop Chainsaw, that dude who went on a sexist rant during that fighting game competition, and The Last of Us, which doesn't oversexualize anyone but pushes the other point: that females have to be led through hardship by Nathan Drake. And now we have a huge organized sexist outcry against someone who is simply trying to discuss the issue by privately raising money.

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

Chemical Alia:

I don't follow the point you're trying to make, based on what I said.

The point is that it seemed to me that you think that what the "misogynistic" game producers thoughts about the issue are either irrelevant or non-existent. If you don't know why they make such games, how do you want to convince them to stop making them or making "gender positive" games?

More, it weakens your position if the target of your discourse discovers that you consider them as just non-thinking idiots.

Whoa, where the hell did all this come from? "Non-thinking idiots" and misogynists? These people are talented and amazing, and I talk with them all the time. That doesn't mean they don't sometimes fall into habits and forget to think outside of the box when it comes to variety in characters. It's a pretty narrow demographic among game developers, and it's easy to fall back to the default of what they personally think is "sweet" or "sexy", but it's not some evil conspiracy or even always done on purpose.

Well, it seems I misinterpreted your phrase. So you are saying that the portrayals used among developers are something born more out of habit?

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

snowplow:

I've seen numerous complaints about bad female characters, but ZERO tips on making good ones.

Excellent point. It is easy to be destructive, but difficult to be creative.

An effort shold be made in this direction.

I explored this idea when I was still in school with a project I did. I looked at the design process for the TF2 cast and applied the same kind of decision making to model a couple playable female versions. I made the models downloadable to the general public, and the response I got on them has been overwhelmingly positive (even with my crappy first two ones, when I was still new to modeling.) I just finished up with the fourth one, and from the feedback I've gotten from the community, there's definitely an interest in having variety along with having straight up fan-service.

But making good female characters shouldn't be any different than making good characters of any kind. They deserve the same exploration, research and variety as any other thought-out character. Relying too hard tropes and derivative material makes for boring characters, male or female, and I think that's an area of game development that needs more creativity and broader backgrounds.

That's progressive. Keep up the good work.

One thing I noticed about design in fighting games. There is almost always a freak or ugly character, but they are always male. I remember one arcade fighting game with a (very) old woman and nobody used her. People said that they were bad with her, although the AI was hellish with her. I don't know if this is relevant.

About the project. I hope she discuss the tropes reasons of use instead of just rambling about the damages. Going to the roots of the problem are the most pratical to solve it, and, hey, it can delve into the society's psyche which is always interesting.

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