Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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JerrytheBullfrog:

Trekkie:

conflictofinterests:

Mostly because rapists are known to be repeat offenders, and while it only takes one woman to come forward to put him into jail, he can get away with numerous rapes before that one woman comes forward. And while many women will tell SOMEONE else about what occurred, a good number of them can't find the courage to come to court with evidence, or when they do, the hesitation on their part reflects not a deep inner turmoil (to do with religious perceptions of purity, and American perceptions of self-sufficiency, and a questioning of whether there was anything more she could have done to stop it) to the judge and jury, but dishonesty. Your statement, that women can lie, reflects this blame-the-victim bias so common in rape cases.

It is odd to me, that someone can accuse someone of measurable physical abuse, and when the measurements are taken and it proves that no physical abuse has occurred, that person is labled a liar or a madperson, but when that physical abuse happens to be rape, and the supposed victim happens to be a woman, it is not just that person who is the liar or the madperson, but everyone of that gender as well. Why not everyone of that complexion, or haircolor, or eyecolor, or stature?

I said women can lie not that every woman is a liar if one of them dose. my problem with it is that everyone seems to assume that just because the person is female then they cant be capable of anything bad and whatever she says must be the truth. like how if a male teacher sleeps with one of his purples he, as he should, goes to prison. However if a female teacher (Sarah Jones in this case) sleeps with one of her purples then dose she go to prison... nope.... she gets set free and gets a playboy shoot instead. same crime vastly different consequences.

And another thing, the whole less than 10% of rapists never see prison thing..... wouldn't that be because the court didn't find enough evidence to be able to convict the suspect. Maybe some of those rape cases where false accusations? (and it happens quite a lot, http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html) maybe they got the wrong man ETC, what I find troubling is this assumption that if a man is accused then he must be guilty. why would someone lie?

also when someone step forward, for any crime, and says they did that to me.... 3 years ago, then we should take that with some salt because there will be minuscule to no evidence of that actually happening and frankly, if someone doesn't have evidence, why should i believe them? unless you have proof then you should not say that that crime was committed i don't care if its in court or stats it is not right to say something happened when you have little to no proof that it did. Frankly the whole 95% of rape isn't reported thing, doesn't hold water, because even a year or so down the line, you have no proof that it happened apart from what the alleged victim says and that isn't proof, that's an accusation.

and im sorry but asking for proof is NOT blaming the victim its trying to dercern the truth.

Asking for proof is not blaming the victim. Trying to undermine her credibility at every turn is. (She shouldn't have had a drink / she had agreed to sex with him before / she was kissing him, etc)

Also, it's estimated that the number of false rape accusations is around 6% or so. About the same amount as false accusations for any other crime.

Frankly if i slept with a women when i was drunk and i regretted it the morning after no-one would be saying "oh you poor thing" they would be saying "well maybe next time you'll take more responsibility for you r action next time and you'll think twice next" as it should be.

if a women gets drunk and she tells a man she wants to have sex with and they do then in his mind she has given her consent to have sex with her. if she had said no however then they wouldn't have had sex. if you give someone the ability to tell someone they want to have sex with them and then take that away after the deed is done, then what is to stop someone abusing that system? you are basically giving people the ability to put whoever they want in jail by pointing a finger and saying three words.

if I agree to have sex with someone when i am drunk then whether I like it or not I am telling that person that I am consenting to have sex with them. If I regret it the next morning then i should learn from that experience and never go home with someone when i am drunk. for me to then take away that persons freedom because i agreed to something stupid is incredibly unfair and shows that i am nothing more than a child because i cannot take accountability for my own actions and saying that is not undermining anyone's credibility, it is simply pointing out the fact that once you give someone your consent then male or female taking that away after the deed is done is wrong and you should not be able to convict someone for the felony of rape because you regret having sex with them.

Also regarding a women who is drunk as not accountable for herself is sexist in itself as it treats them as children who cant think or act for themselves.

furthermore what if that man is drunk? is he still a rapist? because under your logic people cant be held accountable for what they do when their drunk. and what if someone mugs someone? or shoots someone when their drunk? should they be held accountable for their actions then? or is it only if they have a penis?

Also the false rape statistic is a farce because they don't count it as false rape unless the accuser admits it was and the accusation was obviously false, like if the person they said who raped them doesn't exist. instead they count it as "unfound charge" because proving that it didn't happen is next to impossible thanks to legislation like VAWA and the title 9 dear colleague letter that put into place legislation that shifts the burden of proof onto the accused, lowers the amount of evidence need for conviction by a university board to zero stain a mans name in the academia circles forever, the removal of the mans right to face and question his accuser in court (something in the bill of rights by the way) and that's not counting the dear colleague letters suggestion to remove the police from the equation all together when regarding an accusation on collage grounds.

http://www.theforensicexaminer.com/archive/spring09/15/

Plus if rape culture exists then why is a rape a crime and held up above murder as on of the worst things someone can do and why dose it carry life sentence?

on a separate note, the threads gone past 1000 posts don't you think its time we leave it to rest? gota be some kind of record.

Trekkie:
snip

"Rape culture doesn't exist! Also, it's your own fault of you get raped when you're in a state of mind where you're legally unable to give consent!"

Really?

You wanna know the reason this is an issue?

Men look at, for example Batman, and see a rolemodel of some sort.
Women look at, for example Catwoman, and see something that they find better than themselves.

Ofcourse this doesn't apply to all women, and the scenario I sketched is quite bland, but this is exactly why men don't give a damn about men being portrayed cliché-like (muscled, using fighting as their main way of problemsolving, etc.) and women do.

Example:
- Men watch a movie about 300 Spartans with ripped bodies fighting valiantly against their enemies and they'll enjoy the movie.

- Women watch a movie about 300 of the hottest bikini models (for a fair comparisson) playing beachvolleyball and they'll go home with a minoritycomplex.

Again, a stereotypical example, but you'll find this to be true most of the time. This is why women being portrayed as perfect (by stereotypical standards) in a videogame is an issue, and men being portrayed in a videogame as perfect (by stereotypical standards) isn't.

SimpleThunda':
You wanna know the reason this is an issue?

Men look at, for example Batman, and see a rolemodel of some sort.
Women look at, for example Catwoman, and see something that they find better than themselves.

Ofcourse this doesn't apply to all women, and the scenario I sketched is quite bland, but this is exactly why men don't give a damn about men being portrayed cliché-like (muscled, using fighting as their main way of problemsolving, etc.) and women do.

Example:
- Men watch a movie about 300 Spartans with ripped bodies fighting valiantly against their enemies and they'll enjoy the movie.

- Women watch a movie about 300 of the hottest bikini models (for a fair comparisson) playing beachvolleyball and they'll go home with a minoritycomplex.

Again, a stereotypical example, but you'll find this to be true most of the time. This is why women being portrayed as perfect (by stereotypical standards) in a videogame is an issue, and men being portrayed in a videogame as perfect (by stereotypical standards) isn't.

So your point is that the pinnacle of male achievement would be someone like Batman/Gerard Butler (heroic, strong, a good leader, moral, conflicted and also sexy) and the pinnacle of female achievement is being... a bikini model.....

Jesus effing Christ

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:
snip

"Rape culture doesn't exist! Also, it's your own fault of you get raped when you're in a state of mind where you're legally unable to give consent!"

Really?

read this carefully, If you GIVE YOUR CONSENT to have sex and have CONSENSUAL sex with someone then drunk or not and no matter what gender you are you HAVE Given your CONSENT to have sex with them. To take that away AFTER you have sex is unfair and a perversion of justice.

THEY GAVE THEIR CONSENT THIS MEANS THAT ITS NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE!

also notice how the definition of rape is written so that only men can be rapists so if it happens to a man then its not rape. couple that with the ability to change your mind afterwards and take away consent then we have a world where every man has a metaphorical gun to their head.

and here's my rebutle to the rape culture argument:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmHETvyk6eA&feature=plcp

Hollyday:

SimpleThunda':
You wanna know the reason this is an issue?

Men look at, for example Batman, and see a rolemodel of some sort.
Women look at, for example Catwoman, and see something that they find better than themselves.

Ofcourse this doesn't apply to all women, and the scenario I sketched is quite bland, but this is exactly why men don't give a damn about men being portrayed cliché-like (muscled, using fighting as their main way of problemsolving, etc.) and women do.

Example:
- Men watch a movie about 300 Spartans with ripped bodies fighting valiantly against their enemies and they'll enjoy the movie.

- Women watch a movie about 300 of the hottest bikini models (for a fair comparisson) playing beachvolleyball and they'll go home with a minoritycomplex.

Again, a stereotypical example, but you'll find this to be true most of the time. This is why women being portrayed as perfect (by stereotypical standards) in a videogame is an issue, and men being portrayed in a videogame as perfect (by stereotypical standards) isn't.

So your point is that the pinnacle of male achievement would be someone like Batman/Gerard Butler (heroic, strong, a good leader, moral, conflicted and also sexy) and the pinnacle of female achievement is being... a bikini model.....

Jesus effing Christ

No, you ponce. My point is that men and women cope differently with their gender being sexualized. I already stated that the examples were bland.

Father Time:

If she wanted discussions she could interview someone who makes those characters or is involved with game marketing or something.

She actually was recently invited to talk with the developers at Bungie.

And if this videos can be used to point out the most common tropes in game writing with examples how not to fall into those back then I see those videos as quite usefull.

SimpleThunda':

No, you ponce. My point is that men and women cope differently with their gender being sexualized. I already stated that the examples were bland.

Again, you compare a fleshed out character to eyecandy. "Looking good" =! sexist. Just looking good without any other redeemable qualities is one other page on itself. If we took just another superheroine with roughly the same amount of background story (Wonderwoman, Hawkgirl or even Catwoman from some comics) you'd get a better comparison how a female aequivalent to Batman would look like. Sadly, most writer mistake (in movies, comics, books and games) that to write a good female character is not as easy as writing a man and slapping boobs on him.

hey look someone's doing a male one aswell. now lets watch eveyone switch sides for a page or so :P

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

SimpleThunda':

No, you ponce. My point is that men and women cope differently with their gender being sexualized. I already stated that the examples were bland.

Are you mistaking the word 'bland' for the word 'ridiculous'?

I would argue that the problem isn't that men and women cope with sexualised characters in different ways, but that the characters are sexualised in different ways. As has already been discussed at length in this thread, there is a big difference between a power fantasy and sexualisation. Batman or one of the Spartan soldiers are certainly sexy since they are played by handsome actors, have good bodies etc. but they are also powerful characters who have agency. Their muscles give them strength to fight so they transcend merely being eye-candy. Giant breasts serve no purpose except as possible buoyancy aids and the cause of back problems. In your example you mentioned that the spartan soldiers were fighting valiantly, while the bikini models were playing volleyball. I know you were deliberately using extremely stereotypical examples but that's exactly the point.

TheKasp:

SimpleThunda':

No, you ponce. My point is that men and women cope differently with their gender being sexualized. I already stated that the examples were bland.

Again, you compare a fleshed out character to eyecandy. "Looking good" =! sexist. Just looking good without any other redeemable qualities is one other page on itself. If we took just another superheroine with roughly the same amount of background story (Wonderwoman, Hawkgirl etc) you'd get a better comparison how a female aequivalent to Batman would look like. Sadly, most writer mistake (in movies, comics, books and games) that to write a good female character is not as easy as writing a man and slapping boobs on him.

300 perfect-looking men fighting is pretty sexualized and sexist, yet it poses very little of a problem for most men. Then again, it's not about the damn example that I gave, it's about the different way men and women look at a percieved perfect version of their gender.

Edit:
The male stereotype of perfection includes heroism and leadership besides muscles and good looks, whereas the female stereotype of perfection usually doesn't go further than her looks.

Hollyday:

SimpleThunda':

No, you ponce. My point is that men and women cope differently with their gender being sexualized. I already stated that the examples were bland.

Are you mistaking the word 'bland' for the word 'ridiculous'?

I would argue that the problem isn't that men and women cope with sexualised characters in different ways, but that the characters are sexualised in different ways. As has already been discussed at length in this thread, there is a big difference between a power fantasy and sexualisation. Batman or one of the Spartan soldiers are certainly sexy since they are played by handsome actors, have good bodies etc. but they are also powerful characters who have agency. Their muscles give them strength to fight so they transcend merely being eye-candy. Giant breasts serve no purpose except as possible buoyancy aids and the cause of back problems. In your example you mentioned that the spartan soldiers were fighting valiantly, while the bikini models were playing volleyball. I know you were deliberately using extremely stereotypical examples but that's exactly the point.

men and women find different things sexy. this is often phrased as women are human-being and men are human-Doings. what it means is that women are sexualised through their looks whilst men are sexualised by what they contribute, how much money they earn, what car they drive, what job they have, how well groomed they are ETC. this is why allot of women find men in suits sexy because a suit shows wealth and what he can do for her. its called hypergamy and it came through evolution. men looked for healthy, women with good genes (wide hips ETC ) whilst women looked for protection a resources.

my point is just because a man finds a feature about a women sexy then that doesn't mean a women will find the same thing sexy on a man.

Trekkie:

read this carefully, If you GIVE YOUR CONSENT to have sex and have CONSENSUAL sex with someone then drunk or not and no matter what gender you are you HAVE Given your CONSENT to have sex with them. To take that away AFTER you have sex is unfair and a perversion of justice.

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Trekkie:
couple that with the ability to change your mind afterwards and take away consent then we have a world where every man has a metaphorical gun to their head.

I dunno, I've only had sex when not impaired with people who aren't impaired. I always assumed making sure potential sexual partners actually want to fuck was a basic human decency thing.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

read this carefully, If you GIVE YOUR CONSENT to have sex and have CONSENSUAL sex with someone then drunk or not and no matter what gender you are you HAVE Given your CONSENT to have sex with them. To take that away AFTER you have sex is unfair and a perversion of justice.

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Trekkie:
couple that with the ability to change your mind afterwards and take away consent then we have a world where every man has a metaphorical gun to their head.

I dunno, I've only had sex when not impaired with people who aren't impaired. I always assumed making sure potential sexual partners actually want to fuck was a basic human decency thing.

If you get drunk, have sex with someone and regret it in the morning, you really should have no right to complain. This goes for men AND women.

SimpleThunda':

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

read this carefully, If you GIVE YOUR CONSENT to have sex and have CONSENSUAL sex with someone then drunk or not and no matter what gender you are you HAVE Given your CONSENT to have sex with them. To take that away AFTER you have sex is unfair and a perversion of justice.

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Trekkie:
couple that with the ability to change your mind afterwards and take away consent then we have a world where every man has a metaphorical gun to their head.

I dunno, I've only had sex when not impaired with people who aren't impaired. I always assumed making sure potential sexual partners actually want to fuck was a basic human decency thing.

If you get drunk, have sex with someone and regret it in the morning, you really should have no right to complain. This goes for men AND women.

What is with the internet and not understanding consent law? If someone's impaired by alcohol, they cannot (in most jurisdictions) consent to sex. So if someone is impaired by alcohol (or by any drug) and is raped, they in fact have the right to press charges.

Trekkie:

men and women find different things sexy. this is often phrased as women are human-being and men are human-Doings. what it means is that women are sexualised through their looks whilst men are sexualised by what they contribute, how much money they earn, what car they drive, what job they have, how well groomed they are ETC. this is why allot of women find men in suits sexy because a suit shows wealth and what he can do for her. its called hypergamy and it came through evolution. men looked for healthy, women with good genes (wide hips ETC ) whilst women looked for protection a resources.

But your point hinges on the idea that only men are watching and enjoying these sexualised depictions of women, and only women are watching and enjoying the sexualised depictions of men. We're not talking about porn, we're talking about mainstream media. Everyone of all genders and sexualities are consuming this media. Men (and women) can get something positive out of the character of Batman - yes you can argue that he's sexualised, but that's a very small part of his character. He is fully-rounded. Women in the media often aren't - they're just this sexualised ideal that men want (as you pointed out in your post, just 'being' sexy and not 'doing' anything). I think that that's a pretty harmful message to send to women on a daily basis.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

read this carefully, If you GIVE YOUR CONSENT to have sex and have CONSENSUAL sex with someone then drunk or not and no matter what gender you are you HAVE Given your CONSENT to have sex with them. To take that away AFTER you have sex is unfair and a perversion of justice.

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Trekkie:
couple that with the ability to change your mind afterwards and take away consent then we have a world where every man has a metaphorical gun to their head.

I dunno, I've only had sex when not impaired with people who aren't impaired. I always assumed making sure potential sexual partners actually want to fuck was a basic human decency thing.

i can guarantee you that you will be hard fucking pressed to find people who think the same way if it was a man and not a woman. and unless someone has slipped you something which is rape then you have decided to drink that beer or smoke that pot and you should know what it dose to your body and you should take steps to make sure you don't do anything stupid like jump into bed with someone when your drunk. the whole too drunk to give consent thing is bullshit because it reduces people to the level of children who cant and or wont take responsibility for their own actions.

and that's the thing, you don't need to be drunk you just have to say you regret it and point a finger. the system is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for a man to prove he didn't do anything.

and also what if they are both drunk? what then? is he still a rapist?

Trekkie:
and that's the thing, you don't need to be drunk you just have to say you regret it and point a finger. the system is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for a man to prove he didn't do anything.

I can't think of any jurisdiction where the problem is rape being over-prosecuted.

Hollyday:

Trekkie:

men and women find different things sexy. this is often phrased as women are human-being and men are human-Doings. what it means is that women are sexualised through their looks whilst men are sexualised by what they contribute, how much money they earn, what car they drive, what job they have, how well groomed they are ETC. this is why allot of women find men in suits sexy because a suit shows wealth and what he can do for her. its called hypergamy and it came through evolution. men looked for healthy, women with good genes (wide hips ETC ) whilst women looked for protection a resources.

But your point hinges on the idea that only men are watching and enjoying these sexualised depictions of women, and only women are watching and enjoying the sexualised depictions of men. We're not talking about porn, we're talking about mainstream media. Everyone of all genders and sexualities are consuming this media. Men (and women) can get something positive out of the character of Batman - yes you can argue that he's sexualised, but that's a very small part of his character. He is fully-rounded. Women in the media often aren't - they're just this sexualised ideal that men want (as you pointed out in your post, just 'being' sexy and not 'doing' anything). I think that that's a pretty harmful message to send to women on a daily basis.

You still are missing/avoiding the point.
When (most) men look at the percieved perfection of their gender, -WHATEVER THIS PERCEPTION MAY BE-, it does not make them doubt themselves.
The opposite is true for (most) women and that is why women are bothered by sexualization in videogames and sexualization in general, and men aren't.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:
snip

"Rape culture doesn't exist! Also, it's your own fault of you get raped when you're in a state of mind where you're legally unable to give consent!"

Really?

Are you not responsible for what you do while drunk?

Hollyday:

Trekkie:

men and women find different things sexy. this is often phrased as women are human-being and men are human-Doings. what it means is that women are sexualised through their looks whilst men are sexualised by what they contribute, how much money they earn, what car they drive, what job they have, how well groomed they are ETC. this is why allot of women find men in suits sexy because a suit shows wealth and what he can do for her. its called hypergamy and it came through evolution. men looked for healthy, women with good genes (wide hips ETC ) whilst women looked for protection a resources.

But your point hinges on the idea that only men are watching and enjoying these sexualised depictions of women, and only women are watching and enjoying the sexualised depictions of men. We're not talking about porn, we're talking about mainstream media. Everyone of all genders and sexualities are consuming this media. Men (and women) can get something positive out of the character of Batman - yes you can argue that he's sexualised, but that's a very small part of his character. He is fully-rounded. Women in the media often aren't - they're just this sexualised ideal that men want (as you pointed out in your post, just 'being' sexy and not 'doing' anything). I think that that's a pretty harmful message to send to women on a daily basis.

really because I cant think of one game where the female chars arent seen as strong and independent and who don't need help from anyone. Samus, alex Vance, Lara croft, Ashley Williams, catwoman, Jennifer Mui, Liara T'soni, Shaundi... seriously i can go on for a really long fucking time but the fact of the matter is this, they are all strong female characters and whenever you say a female char that isn't strong and independent its always peach a char from a game where the PC didn't have his own personality beyond plumber.

and so we get to the point where we constantly get bombarded with the statement that games are sexist because the women look sexy. yeah well so do the men and dont pretend they dont.

plus what dose the human-doing message do for men besides tell us were nothing but an appliance to be used to extract resources?

...Is there anyone who is currently confused as to why the gaming community is not considered mature or ready to be accepted as a grown and refined cultural phenomenom?

This is why.

Is it really that surprising, then, that gaming culture tends to be reguarded fairly poorly when vermin like these runs about freely and mostly unopposed? No, it isn't. It can change, but evidently, too many prefer to remain apathic for that to happen. And gaming culture will continue to recieve the treatment that it honestly deserves at this time.

Yes, yes, haters gonna hate is practically a physical law, but... No, this is too far. These haters, specifically those aiming to shoot the project down and the ones threatening violence and rape, are utter scum. Utter, utter scum. No excuses.

Not everyone is like that, of course, but there comes a time when repeating a fairly obvious fact over and over again just isn't enough, and it's time to start acting like it, too.

Suppose I'm another bolshevik feminist. But I also suppose I'm fairly proud of that. It certainly beats the alternative.

Disgusting.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:
and that's the thing, you don't need to be drunk you just have to say you regret it and point a finger. the system is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for a man to prove he didn't do anything.

I can't think of any jurisdiction where the problem is rape being over-prosecuted.

duke lacrosse. enough said.

a case where the prosecution with covered up evidence that would have accused the three men so that they could get a prosecution.

and if you still don't believe me, this site is full of them:

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/

marche45:

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:
snip

"Rape culture doesn't exist! Also, it's your own fault of you get raped when you're in a state of mind where you're legally unable to give consent!"

Really?

Are you not responsible for what you do while drunk?

The question of if and how intoxication affects mens rea is complicated. The question of how an impairing amount of alcohol affects consent is considerably less so.

SimpleThunda':

You still are missing/avoiding the point.
When (most) men look at the percieved perfection of their gender, -WHATEVER THIS PERCEPTION MAY BE-, it does not make them doubt themselves.
The opposite is true for (most) women and that is why women are bothered by sexualization in videogames and sexualization in general, and men aren't.

I just flat-out don't agree. I think this is the point where neither of us is going to budge, because I can honestly say that I'm not threatened by depictions of sexualised women in the media. I look up to many of them, especially when 'being sexy' is not the only thing they have on their resume. I've never played a game/watched a film featuring a sexy female sidekick/villainess/heroine and thought 'wow, she's prettier than I am: I HATE THAT B****!' The worst I can say is that usually the sexualised depictions of women BORE me, because looking pretty isn't exactly the stuff meaty characters are made from.

I think that the sexualised depictions of men aren't threatening to men because they usually remain fully-rounded characters. This means that men have something to identify with except 'if I looked like him, women would like me'.

But again, this is my opinion seen from a female standpoint, yours is from yours. We may have to agree to very much disagree!

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:
and that's the thing, you don't need to be drunk you just have to say you regret it and point a finger. the system is set up in a way that makes it almost impossible for a man to prove he didn't do anything.

I can't think of any jurisdiction where the problem is rape being over-prosecuted.

duke lacrosse. enough said.

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

I can't think of any jurisdiction where the problem is rape being over-prosecuted.

duke lacrosse. enough said.

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

no they didn't but only because of a very very good defence team. how many other guys weren't so lucky? the point is that the prosecution tried to cover-up evidence to convict these guys as rapists when they knew they where not, that is a perversion of justice! that is wrong!

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

duke lacrosse. enough said.

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

no they didn't but only because of a very very good defence team. how many other guys weren't so lucky? the point is that the prosecution tried to cover-up evidence to convict these guys as rapists when they knew they where not, that is a perversion of justice! that is wrong!

You still aren't any closer to evidence that the US is a jurisdiction where the over-prosecution of rape is a bigger problem than the under-prosecution of rape, BTW.

hentropy:

Father Time:

hentropy:

It would probably make the story something fresh, interesting, and more enjoyable to sit through than another game about a male leading a girl through a dangerous world. It's not about quotas and doing things for the sake of it, it's about going over uncovered territory and progressing the medium.

Just because it's using a new formula doesn't mean it'll be good and likewise if something is using an old formula that doesn't mean the story will be bad.

Look at GTA, they've had the same formula for most of their recent games. A financially poor man reluctantly joins/is pushed into the world of crime and must climb the ladder of the criminal underworld to get into a better spot in life.

And yet the writing in some of them is awesome! The GTA IV mission "that special someone" is by far my favorite moment in the game and that mission had no challenge and was just pure story (and if you haven't played the game it has nothing to do with romance).

Hell I've seen game stories about people with plot convenient amnesia that were done really well.

All that said I'd be more likely to consider a game if it did have a new idea, but you can still have great writing while relying on a formula (like Tarantino).

It's true that it could have a good story, but the story really isn't the issue in this case. I don't really know the story outside of "Extraordinarily Capable Grizzled Nathan Drake Clone Leads Cute Young Girl Through the Collapse of Civilization." Is it possible it could be a good game with good mechanics and an insightful story, I'm just not holding my breath or waiting for more trailers or a release date, to me it's just another hackneyed game about armageddon.

I wouldn't label GTAIV as a bastion of good storytelling (can you say forced melodrama?), but the thing about a game like that is that it can have its moments because it's a bit more open-ended. In this case I don't know what else they would talk about other than Nathan Drake teaching younger Zoey how to survive with subtext about younger Zoey grounding Nathan Drake in reality and making him realize there's still innocence in the world and things worth protecting. If it's radically different than that, I will be surprised.

My issue here isn't just one game, however. This whole argument has been about how games really aren't that bad on gender issues and people need to stop complaining about it and how the vast majority of gamers and developers have no lingering problems with women, over-sexualization, and reinforcement of negative stereotypes.

But yet we get the Hitman controversy, Lolipop Chainsaw, that dude who went on a sexist rant during that fighting game competition, and The Last of Us, which doesn't oversexualize anyone but pushes the other point: that females have to be led through hardship by Nathan Drake. And now we have a huge organized sexist outcry against someone who is simply trying to discuss the issue by privately raising money.

After seeing the ameplay video he doesn't strike me as a drake clone. Hell he'd be dead if that girl wasn't helping him. Also it's not saying women need to be led. She's a minor and an orphan, those two traits mean they would need to be looked after even today irl.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

no they didn't but only because of a very very good defence team. how many other guys weren't so lucky? the point is that the prosecution tried to cover-up evidence to convict these guys as rapists when they knew they where not, that is a perversion of justice! that is wrong!

You still aren't any closer to evidence that the US is a jurisdiction where the over-prosecution of rape is a bigger problem than the under-prosecution of rape, BTW.

Judges cops and juries are not a hive mind both problems can exist simultaneously in a country as big as this

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

no they didn't but only because of a very very good defence team. how many other guys weren't so lucky? the point is that the prosecution tried to cover-up evidence to convict these guys as rapists when they knew they where not, that is a perversion of justice! that is wrong!

You still aren't any closer to evidence that the US is a jurisdiction where the over-prosecution of rape is a bigger problem than the under-prosecution of rape, BTW.

so whats your evidence of the under prosecution of rape? you haven't given me any of that. and you want evidence, VAWA, title 9 and its dear colleague letter are federal legislations that hold laws to reverse the burden of proof onto the accused, deny him his right to face and question his accuser and even the right to a trial by his peers among others.

and if you want examples of cases where this shit happens, go here... again.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/

oh and not 100% of rape accusation leading to a prosecution is not proof of under prosecution. what it is, is the fact that courts have not found enough evidence to convict someone of a crime. being accused of rape dose not automatically make you a rapist, women are capable of lying, my brother Ex did about the guy she was with before him for example. but most places dont record false rape stats and places that do tend to only note the ones that are obvious. if you think false rape accusations are rare, then why did Orlando PD put out a press release asking women to stop making false allegations.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

no they didn't but only because of a very very good defence team. how many other guys weren't so lucky? the point is that the prosecution tried to cover-up evidence to convict these guys as rapists when they knew they where not, that is a perversion of justice! that is wrong!

You still aren't any closer to evidence that the US is a jurisdiction where the over-prosecution of rape is a bigger problem than the under-prosecution of rape, BTW.

so whats your evidence of the under prosecution of rape? you haven't given me any of that. and you want evidence, VAWA, title 9 and its dear colleague letter are federal legislations that hold laws to reverse the burden of proof onto the accused, deny him his right to face and question his accuser and even the right to a trial by his peers among others.

and if you want examples of cases where this shit happens, go here... again.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/

oh and not 100% of rape accusation leading to a prosecution is not proof of under prosecution. what it is, is the fact that courts have not found enough evidence to convict someone of a crime. being accused of rape dose not automatically make you a rapist, women are capable of lying, my brother Ex did about the guy she was with before him for example. but most places dont record false rape stats and places that do tend to only note the ones that are obvious. if you think false rape accusations are rare, then why did Orlando PD put out a press release asking women to stop making false allegations.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html

I'd like to add that not every innocent person accused of rape is there because the accuser lied. Sometimes innocent people are mistaken for real criminals. That and there's other things.

The Innocence Project has more details I think, well they do have a large list of people convicted of rape that they helped prove were innocent.

So yeah the non-conviction rate does not equal the number of rapists who got away with it.

Father Time:

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

well yeah but there will always be problems with the justice system. loopholes criminals getting away from lack of evidence ETC. but the justice system was built on the idea of innocent until PROVEN guilty.

You still aren't any closer to evidence that the US is a jurisdiction where the over-prosecution of rape is a bigger problem than the under-prosecution of rape, BTW.

so whats your evidence of the under prosecution of rape? you haven't given me any of that. and you want evidence, VAWA, title 9 and its dear colleague letter are federal legislations that hold laws to reverse the burden of proof onto the accused, deny him his right to face and question his accuser and even the right to a trial by his peers among others.

and if you want examples of cases where this shit happens, go here... again.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/

oh and not 100% of rape accusation leading to a prosecution is not proof of under prosecution. what it is, is the fact that courts have not found enough evidence to convict someone of a crime. being accused of rape dose not automatically make you a rapist, women are capable of lying, my brother Ex did about the guy she was with before him for example. but most places dont record false rape stats and places that do tend to only note the ones that are obvious. if you think false rape accusations are rare, then why did Orlando PD put out a press release asking women to stop making false allegations.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html

I'd like to add that not every innocent person accused of rape is there because the accuser lied. Sometimes innocent people are mistaken for real criminals. That and there's other things.

The Innocence Project has more details I think, well they do have a large list of people convicted of rape that they helped prove were innocent.

So yeah the non-conviction rate does not equal the number of rapists who got away with it.

yes the system need fixing, but you cant just make proving your innocence so difficult that if a man is accused then he must be guilty. that is wrong on so many levels. and the whole its better to be safe than sorry ideal sported by feminists and prosecutors alike is complete bullshit. if you put an innocent man away for the rest of his life and ruin his future then that itself is a grave injustice and no amount of "well he could have been a rapist, you dont know, its better to be safe than sorry" is ever going to cover over that.

as a great man once said:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Trekkie:

Father Time:

Trekkie:

so whats your evidence of the under prosecution of rape? you haven't given me any of that. and you want evidence, VAWA, title 9 and its dear colleague letter are federal legislations that hold laws to reverse the burden of proof onto the accused, deny him his right to face and question his accuser and even the right to a trial by his peers among others.

and if you want examples of cases where this shit happens, go here... again.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/

oh and not 100% of rape accusation leading to a prosecution is not proof of under prosecution. what it is, is the fact that courts have not found enough evidence to convict someone of a crime. being accused of rape dose not automatically make you a rapist, women are capable of lying, my brother Ex did about the guy she was with before him for example. but most places dont record false rape stats and places that do tend to only note the ones that are obvious. if you think false rape accusations are rare, then why did Orlando PD put out a press release asking women to stop making false allegations.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html

I'd like to add that not every innocent person accused of rape is there because the accuser lied. Sometimes innocent people are mistaken for real criminals. That and there's other things.

The Innocence Project has more details I think, well they do have a large list of people convicted of rape that they helped prove were innocent.

So yeah the non-conviction rate does not equal the number of rapists who got away with it.

yes the system need fixing, but you cant just make proving your innocence so difficult that if a man is accused then he must be guilty. that is wrong on so many levels. and the whole its better to be safe than sorry ideal sported by feminists and prosecutors alike is complete bullshit. if you put an innocent man away for the rest of his life and ruin his future then that itself is a grave injustice and no amount of "well he could have been a rapist, you dont know, its better to be safe than sorry" is ever going to cover over that.

as a great man once said:

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

Oh yeah, that and putting an innocent man away means the real criminal got away with it and is still out there.

exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

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