Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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The way women are depicted in video games is a non-issue.

One of my favorite video games as a kid was Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. My parents would have never bought me such a game, so I always went to my cousin's house to play it on his PlayStation 2.
It was honestly some of the most fun I had with video games at the time; and it is definitely one the factors that drove to becoming a gamer rather than someone who just plays games occasionally.
I would sit in his room and play it for hours upon hours until it was time to go home. It was so fun to run around in a consequence-free world, doing whatever I felt like doing to whomever I felt like doing it to. I never once tried to advance the plot in anyway, hell - I probably didn't even know how to do such a thing.

I did things in that game that I would never do in real life. I did things in that game that I would never want to do in real life. But that was kind of the point. In that video game - I was free to enjoy any kind of pleasure I desired. The reason was very simple; the whole world of GTA holds no moral value. I wasn't actually killing anyone or damaging anything. It was all fantasy. Because it was fantasy - I could enjoy it.

When I see video games being yanked away from their proper place, it really makes me sad. It seems as time goes on, the "gaming community" continues to create issues and controversies over what I see as devices of fantasy. I ask myself, "How could anybody feel genuinely hurt over something like this?" "Why would anybody want to destroy fantasy and condition it for reality? Isn't that the point of fantasy, to be consequence free - to be detached from reality?"

Why would anyone want to make fantasy moral?

Trekkie:

*snip*

You are incoherent, rambling, and loaded with false statements and deep exaggerations. Seriously, one of the benefits of the position you are arguing is that it doesn't require that kind of exaggeration. A quick proofread never hurts either, some of what you wrote gave me a headache trying to figure it out. Also, FRS doesn't receive the majority of the posts these days -- they've largely moved to http://cotwa.info , the Community of the Wrongly Accused; there's a huge image link to it at the top of the FRS page.

Kahunaburger:

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Yet, somehow, women are not responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk, while men remain responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk. Funny how that works, isn't it?

Just ask yourself this: Two people get drunk at a party, go somewhere more private and have sex. Was it rape/sexual assault? If so, who was the victim and who was the perpetrator?

I honestly expect that eventually given the Dear Colleague letter that in one of those mutually drunken cases that the accused man will argue that he, being intoxicated himself and unable to consent, was victimized by the woman, and otherwise agree with the order of events as claimed, and lodge his own complaint. Then follow it up with a threat to sue under Title IX if his case isn't treated fairly, which since both cases would be presenting more or less identical evidence aside from which of them is perpetrator and which is victim should mean identical treatment (realistically they'd give her the minimum sanction for sexual assault and the man the maximum sanction for rape then argue that is not discriminatory because "sexual intercourse performed through force, the threat of force, or while the victim is unconscious, intoxicated, or otherwise incapable of consent" is typically "not rape" unless the perpetrator is male). The fallout from that would be spectacular, and the man in question would have basically nothing to lose and everything to gain by doing so.

Kahunaburger:

Trekkie:

Kahunaburger:

I can't think of any jurisdiction where the problem is rape being over-prosecuted.

duke lacrosse. enough said.

Did they get convicted? No? Sounds like the system worked (for them.)

Really? Had their case not got the massive degree of national attention that it did (and the equally massive amount of attention on the fact it was a false accusation), these guys' lives would have been effectively permanently ruined. Why? Because they would be plastered all over the media as rapists, and no one ever gives the "actually innocent" part the same kind of attention in the media unless it's proof of corruption or some other problem with a bigger, flashier villain. So guess what happens when someone tries to look them up (say, as a potential applicant)?

If you'd like a better and more recent example, how about Brian Banks? 5 years in prison, 5 years on probation with an ankle monitor and registered on the sex offender registry. Oh, and his false accuser made a ton of money off the school system. She'll probably never see any kind of punishment for that, it was only a decade of a man's life taken from him and a lot of money fraudulently taken from the school system. Even if she were to be prosecuted for it, the punishment for a false accusation is a fine in the same general range as a speeding ticket, plus whatever might arise from the fraud.

Trekkie:

and you want evidence, VAWA, title 9 and its dear colleague letter are federal legislations that hold laws to reverse the burden of proof onto the accused, deny him his right to face and question his accuser and even the right to a trial by his peers among others.

They don't do all that. They certainly have their share of "let's shit on civil rights" text in them, but none of them reverse the burden of proof (though they do drastically lessen it for college internal policies). Title IX says nothing about how rape charges should be processed in and of itself. The Dear Colleague letter however *does* state that colleges must use the "preponderance of the evidence" standard (which means even slightly more proof that it happened than not is sufficient to demonstrate guilt, and in which questioning victim testimony is generally disallowed [with a trend to give it extra weight, as well], it's also often not permitted to involve a lawyer) when doing internal evaluation of accusations of sexual assault or rape, or else they are engaging in sex discrimination and are subject to being sued via Title IX. This is not a criminal trial, and remedies are limited to those the school has the capacity to enforce (such as effectively ending your education in a permanent sense, since data is shared between institutions). College internal proceeding have never come with a right to a jury trial.

Trekkie:
if you think false rape accusations are rare, then why did Orlando PD put out a press release asking women to stop making false allegations.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/orlando-false-rape-epidemic.html

This was a poor thing to use as an example, because the reply will be something like "Yes, that was a great example of rape culture!"

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Yet, somehow, women are not responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk, while men remain responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk. Funny how that works, isn't it?

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place*, regardless of whether they've got a Y chromosome or not.

*in most jurisdictions.

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Yet, somehow, women are not responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk, while men remain responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk. Funny how that works, isn't it?

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place*, regardless of whether they've got a Y chromosome or not.

*in most jurisdictions.

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

One guy gave an example of an Orlando cop talking about their rise and he specifically mentioned 3 cases. That hardly counts.

Trekkie:
hey look someone's doing a male one aswell. now lets watch eveyone switch sides for a page or so :P

http://www.indiegogo.com/misandryinvideogames?c=home

Have these guys made videos before? We know FF has all the equipment, what about these guys?

Other than that same issues. Once you have the equipment this could be done for free and all those other things people brought up. I like the idea as a response though.

Trekkie:

plus what dose the human-doing message do for men besides tell us were nothing but an appliance to be used to extract resources?

Personally I'd rather be an 'appliance', who is able to show their worth through intelligence, strength, will power, loyalty (and general ability to hold down a job) than as a doll. Can you imagine feeling like your entire self worth comes from an accident of genetics? IT SUCKS! I think I have a pretty healthy self-image but even I get worried when I put on a little bit of weight. Women who treat men like walking talking wallets disgust me, but you can't compare men's attraction coming from actions to women's attraction coming from looks. In this sense men are active and in charge of their destinies and women are completely passive and dependent on genetics/possible future plastic surgery.

For a bit of a laugh, check out a glimpse of what it would be like if men were sexualised in the same way as women are all the time:

Trekkie:

really because I cant think of one game where the female chars arent seen as strong and independent and who don't need help from anyone.

....... now that was just silly, wasn't it :)

Some may be strong. Some may even be independent. But good god are they cliched. You did name some characters I really like - Ashley Williams and Liara T'Soni for example, but for every Ashley there are 3 Bayonettas, Ivys, troops of DOA girls and a coachload of sexy demon villainesses (oh, and a Miranda, EDI, Samara and Morinth. Though actually I do really like Mass Effect!). It's not that these portrayals of women are a problem in and of themselves, but when it becomes the norm I think that it is.

Oh, and reading through this thread to catch up on what's being discussed I feel sick to my stomach. The attitudes of some posters regarding rape and its under/over-prosecution is unbelievable. I can't even begin to fathom some people's views on this, and I really don't want to.

Father Time:

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Yet, somehow, women are not responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk, while men remain responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk. Funny how that works, isn't it?

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place*, regardless of whether they've got a Y chromosome or not.

*in most jurisdictions.

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

One guy gave an example of an Orlando cop talking about their rise and he specifically mentioned 3 cases. That hardly counts.

And if you can't trust the opinion of one cop in a red state, who can you trust?

Hollyday:

Trekkie:

plus what dose the human-doing message do for men besides tell us were nothing but an appliance to be used to extract resources?

Personally I'd rather be an 'appliance', who is able to show their worth through intelligence, strength, will power, loyalty (and general ability to hold down a job) than as a doll. Can you imagine feeling like your entire self worth comes from an accident of genetics? IT SUCKS! I think I have a pretty healthy self-image but even I get worried when I put on a little bit of weight. Women who treat men like walking talking wallets disgust me, but you can't compare men's attraction coming from actions to women's attraction coming from looks. In this sense men are active and in charge of their destinies and women are completely passive and dependent on genetics/possible future plastic surgery.

For a bit of a laugh, check out a glimpse of what it would be like if men were sexualised in the same way as women are all the time:

Trekkie:

really because I cant think of one game where the female chars arent seen as strong and independent and who don't need help from anyone.

....... now that was just silly, wasn't it :)

Some may be strong. Some may even be independent. But good god are they cliched. You did name some characters I really like - Ashley Williams and Liara T'Soni for example, but for every Ashley there are 3 Bayonettas, Ivys, troops of DOA girls and a coachload of sexy demon villainesses (oh, and a Miranda, EDI, Samara and Morinth. Though actually I do really like Mass Effect!). It's not that these portrayals of women are a problem in and of themselves, but when it becomes the norm I think that it is.

Oh, and reading through this thread to catch up on what's being discussed I feel sick to my stomach. The attitudes of some posters regarding rape and its under/over-prosecution is unbelievable. I can't even begin to fathom some people's views on this, and I really don't want to.

So some people believe there's a lot of false accusations, there are some out there and now it's just an argument over statistics.

Where's the disgusting part come in?

Kahunaburger:

Father Time:

Kahunaburger:

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place*, regardless of whether they've got a Y chromosome or not.

*in most jurisdictions.

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

One guy gave an example of an Orlando cop talking about their rise and he specifically mentioned 3 cases. That hardly counts.

And if you can't trust the opinion of one cop in a red state, who can you trust?

Why feminist bloggers obviously. [/sarcasm]

This is pathetic, he's a cop, he's had experience dealing with those accusations and you trying to us he's untrustworthy just because he's from a red state?

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place.

Yet, somehow, women are not responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk, while men remain responsible for sexual encounters had while drunk. Funny how that works, isn't it?

People who are impaired by drugs or alcohol can't consent in the first place*, regardless of whether they've got a Y chromosome or not.

*in most jurisdictions.

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

Technically, yes. In practice, not so much. Again, two people get drunk at a party, go somewhere private and sexual intercourse occurs. Was it a sex crime? If so, who is the perpetrator and who is the victim?

How many false accusations does it take to believe that they, you know, sometimes occur and throwing innocent people in jail is a bad idea. There's a reason we set the bar at "beyond a reasonable doubt" and it's not to throw the innocent in jail if we can possibly avoid it. What would constitute not "isolated incidents"? You need one or more studies as to the rate of false reporting? They range from 1.5% to as high as 90% depending on whose study is being discussed [1]. There is a tendency to either ignore or look for reasons to discount studies that suggest the rate is not at worst equal to that of other crime.

Father Time:

Kahunaburger:

Father Time:

One guy gave an example of an Orlando cop talking about their rise and he specifically mentioned 3 cases. That hardly counts.

And if you can't trust the opinion of one cop in a red state, who can you trust?

Why feminist bloggers obviously. [/sarcasm]

This is pathetic, he's a cop, he's had experience dealing with those accusations and you trying to us he's untrustworthy just because he's from a red state?

More or less exactly. To get the approval of the aforementioned feminist bloggers, one has to be from a blue state and use a methodology designed to minimize the number of cases that can possibly count as false accusations. Let me put it this way, read some of those study methodologies -- would Brian Banks count as a false accusation under all of them? Would Louis Gonzales?

Father Time:

This is pathetic, he's a cop, he's had experience dealing with those accusations and you trying to us he's untrustworthy just because he's from a red state?

I don't know if you're from America, but over here there are serious questions about the trustworthiness of police, particularly in red states and particularly when it comes to issues related to civil rights, including women's rights. Suffice to say that someone being a police officer does not make them an authority on these issues by a long shot.

Schadrach:

Technically, yes.

Yep. And since this is a legal question, that's all that matters.

Father Time:

So some people believe there's a lot of false accusations, there are some out there and now it's just an argument over statistics.
Where's the disgusting part come in?

People have differing opinions, and of course you are entitled to yours. Here is mine in article form:

What I find 'disgusting' is how this thread was initially about the awful comments sent to a woman who made a youtube video. Comments which included threats of rape. Flash forward 1000 posts and people are denying that rape culture exists and saying that rape is often exaggerated/over-prosecuted/made up. I find it really hard to see how it got to here - where was the tipping point? I might go back and see which post started on this topic because I really can't see how we went from 'threatening someone with rape is vile' to 'women often lie about being raped and are wasting police time and money that should be spent on real crimes'.

Kahunaburger:

Also, why is it that people talking about how rape is somehow over-prosecuted are only able to bring up isolated incidents? Just a pattern I've noticed.

Nicely put.

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Technically, yes.

Yep. And since this is a legal question, that's all that matters.

...and Terry stops are in no way racist, because the law itself says nothing about race. =)

What the law says, how the law is actually enforced, and the narratives used to construct cases are often very different things.

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Technically, yes.

Yep. And since this is a legal question, that's all that matters.

...and Terry stops are in no way racist, because the law itself says nothing about race.

"Are Terry stops racist?" is not a legal question. "Can a person impaired by alcohol consent?" is. This is not hard.

Hollyday:

What I find 'disgusting' is how this thread was initially about the awful comments sent to a woman who made a youtube video. Comments which included threats of rape. Flash forward 1000 posts and people are denying that rape culture exists and saying that rape is often exaggerated/over-prosecuted/made up. I find it really hard to see how it got to here - where was the tipping point? I might go back and see which post started on this topic because I really can't see how we went from 'threatening someone with rape is vile' to 'women often lie about being raped and are wasting police time and money that should be spent on real crimes'.

The short answer is controversy -- no one is going to argue against 'threatening someone with rape is vile', but they will argue with 'swarm of internet trolls is representative of the gaming community' or 'women are incapable of deceit, therefore an accusation by a woman is the same as guilt' or 'sexist and discriminatory views only effect women or are only important when they effect women'.

I can certainly hold the positions 'threatening someone with rape is vile' and 'an accusation in and of itself does not demonstrate guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; *people* are known to engage in deceit in some cases, therefore not all rape accusations are true' at the same time without a hint of cognitive dissonance.

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

Yep. And since this is a legal question, that's all that matters.

...and Terry stops are in no way racist, because the law itself says nothing about race.

"Are Terry stops racist?" is not a legal question. "Can a person impaired by alcohol consent?" is. This is not hard.

I notice you cut off the other sentence, you know, the one with the point I was trying to make, rather than the example I used?

Schadrach:

Kahunaburger:

Schadrach:

...and Terry stops are in no way racist, because the law itself says nothing about race.

"Are Terry stops racist?" is not a legal question. "Can a person impaired by alcohol consent?" is. This is not hard.

I notice you cut off the other sentence, you know, the one with the point I was trying to make, rather than the example I used?

Yeah, because the "point you were trying to make" was irrelevant to the "question" of whether people impaired by alcohol can consent.

Schadrach:

The short answer is controversy -- no one is going to argue against 'threatening someone with rape is vile', but they will argue with 'swarm of internet trolls is representative of the gaming community' or 'women are incapable of deceit, therefore an accusation by a woman is the same as guilt' or 'sexist and discriminatory views only effect women or are only important when they effect women'.

I can certainly hold the positions 'threatening someone with rape is vile' and 'an accusation in and of itself does not demonstrate guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; *people* are known to engage in deceit in some cases, therefore not all rape accusations are true' at the same time without a hint of cognitive dissonance.

And so you should. Those two points of view are ones I hold myself (and are therefore obviously correct *smug smug feminist smug*). And I won't deny that a small amount of women lie about being raped. That kind of miscarriage of justice, where a person is sent to prison on a charge of rape when they didn't do it, is horrific. However, reading the above posts really made me angry. I was going to quote some stuff from them but now I'm not, since I've just read them again and decided that my problem with them is on a purely personal level. There's just something so vehement about the way it's being spoken about and it scares me a bit. Rape, more than any other crime, relies so heavily on believing one or the other party. To have a closed mind on the issue - either believing strongly that women (or men)often lie about being raped or believing strongly that women (or men) never lie about being raped is really dangerous. Innocent until proven guilty is a no-brainer, but so is supporting victims and not making them feel like liars just because of the nature of the crime they may have been subject to.

Again, I'm not sure where this thread jumped from discussing the threats against a feminist pop-culture critic, and a general discussion about the portrayal of women in the media, to miscarriages of justice against men in rape cases. I'm not saying that it's not a topic worth talking about and I take on board the 'controversial' comment but I just don't see the thought process, I really don't. I'd love to be able to say that a discussion about females in video games leading to a discussion about women lying about rape charges is a total fluke but I have a nasty feeling it's not. And that's really really scary.

lmao so much money for a YouTube video. Haha what the fuck, anybody could do it for free.

Trekkie:
exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?

Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

ACman:

Trekkie:
exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?

Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

what does this have to do with asking for a thousand bucks to make a fucking youtube video

Too lazy to look,but i think it took a turning point after "rape jokes"

Balobo:

what does this have to do with asking for a thousand bucks to make a fucking youtube video

Videos of a certain quality need money. It costs (surprise, heh?) and most people pay with ad revenue. She does not create ad revenue and funds her videos with donations or funding by other sources (when asked to creat videos by other websites).

ACman:

Trekkie:
exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?

Reread what you quoted, it supports none of those things, it's just "its bad when women falsely accuse". That's it.

Kahunaburger:

Father Time:

This is pathetic, he's a cop, he's had experience dealing with those accusations and you trying to us he's untrustworthy just because he's from a red state?

I don't know if you're from America, but over here there are serious questions about the trustworthiness of police, particularly in red states and particularly when it comes to issues related to civil rights, including women's rights. Suffice to say that someone being a police officer does not make them an authority on these issues by a long shot.

Its not just red states there's a lot of abusive cops all over.

But really what would he have to gain from lying about this? He's not an authority but he has dealt with some false accusations firsthand.

Hollyday:

Father Time:

So some people believe there's a lot of false accusations, there are some out there and now it's just an argument over statistics.
Where's the disgusting part come in?

People have differing opinions, and of course you are entitled to yours. Here is mine in article form:

What I find 'disgusting' is how this thread was initially about the awful comments sent to a woman who made a youtube video. Comments which included threats of rape. Flash forward 1000 posts and people are denying that rape culture exists and saying that rape is often exaggerated/over-prosecuted/made up.

I like how you put denying rape culture as if the theory has been proven by science or something.

Grahav:

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

The point is that it seemed to me that you think that what the "misogynistic" game producers thoughts about the issue are either irrelevant or non-existent. If you don't know why they make such games, how do you want to convince them to stop making them or making "gender positive" games?

More, it weakens your position if the target of your discourse discovers that you consider them as just non-thinking idiots.

Whoa, where the hell did all this come from? "Non-thinking idiots" and misogynists? These people are talented and amazing, and I talk with them all the time. That doesn't mean they don't sometimes fall into habits and forget to think outside of the box when it comes to variety in characters. It's a pretty narrow demographic among game developers, and it's easy to fall back to the default of what they personally think is "sweet" or "sexy", but it's not some evil conspiracy or even always done on purpose.

Well, it seems I misinterpreted your phrase. So you are saying that the portrayals used among developers are something born more out of habit?

Chemical Alia:

Grahav:

Excellent point. It is easy to be destructive, but difficult to be creative.

An effort shold be made in this direction.

I explored this idea when I was still in school with a project I did. I looked at the design process for the TF2 cast and applied the same kind of decision making to model a couple playable female versions. I made the models downloadable to the general public, and the response I got on them has been overwhelmingly positive (even with my crappy first two ones, when I was still new to modeling.) I just finished up with the fourth one, and from the feedback I've gotten from the community, there's definitely an interest in having variety along with having straight up fan-service.

But making good female characters shouldn't be any different than making good characters of any kind. They deserve the same exploration, research and variety as any other thought-out character. Relying too hard tropes and derivative material makes for boring characters, male or female, and I think that's an area of game development that needs more creativity and broader backgrounds.

That's progressive. Keep up the good work.

One thing I noticed about design in fighting games. There is almost always a freak or ugly character, but they are always male. I remember one arcade fighting game with a (very) old woman and nobody used her. People said that they were bad with her, although the AI was hellish with her. I don't know if this is relevant.

About the project. I hope she discuss the tropes reasons of use instead of just rambling about the damages. Going to the roots of the problem are the most pratical to solve it, and, hey, it can delve into the society's psyche which is always interesting.

Yeah, that's what I meant. People get complacent sometimes, especially when deadlines and shit are involved. Plus, sometimes the more eyes you have on something, the more watered down it ends up getting in the end. Too many cooks spoiling the broth, so to speak v:

Eating cheese on toast and reading this thread is incredibly interesting. Just thought I should let you guys know.

Point 1: Rape is very very bad.
Point 2: False accusal of rape is bad, even if a conviction isn't sent through, a social stigma, and a very powerful one at that, is forever over the man's head.
Point 3: Rapists lie about not being rapists.
Point 4: Women can (and indeed do) lie to discredit others. Case brought to mind is where after a messy divorce, a woman complained her ex-husband had threatened her with a shotgun. He'd sold all his guns 6 weeks before the date she mentioned and had reciepts and the gun shops sold to to prove it. Summed up, an accusation is not always true.
Point 5: Just because the above is true, does not mean rape accusations are false.
Point 6: I've learnt some very interesting things through this thread.
Point 7: Femenism is the belief that women should have equal rights to men.
Point 8: Thus follows that they should also have equal responsibilites to men. No first dibs on lifeboats by virtue of gender, etc.
Point 9: Can people please make more constructive and responsive comments and concede when someone you don't agree with makes a point well? Common couertesy and maturity is a good thing.

TheKasp:

Balobo:

what does this have to do with asking for a thousand bucks to make a fucking youtube video

Videos of a certain quality need money. It costs (surprise, heh?) and most people pay with ad revenue. She does not create ad revenue and funds her videos with donations or funding by other sources (when asked to creat videos by other websites).

I see plenty of people make quality videos for free. What makes hers different?

Is it because she's fighting for the rights of women everywhere by researching (Googling) about female characters in vidya and making a video about it? (lol)

SkellgrimOrDave:
Eating cheese on toast and reading this thread is incredibly interesting. Just thought I should let you guys know.

Point 1: Rape is very very bad.
Point 2: False accusal of rape is bad, even if a conviction isn't sent through, a social stigma, and a very powerful one at that, is forever over the man's head.
Point 3: Rapists lie about not being rapists.
Point 4: Women can (and indeed do) lie to discredit others. Case brought to mind is where after a messy divorce, a woman complained her ex-husband had threatened her with a shotgun. He'd sold all his guns 6 weeks before the date she mentioned and had receipts and the gun shops sold to to prove it. Summed up, an accusation is not always true.
Point 5: Just because the above is true, does not mean rape accusations are false.
Point 6: I've learned some very interesting things through this thread.
Point 7: Feminism is the belief that women should have equal rights to men.
Point 8: Thus follows that they should also have equal responsibilities to men. No first dibs on lifeboats by virtue of gender, etc.
Point 9: Can people please make more constructive and responsive comments and concede when someone you don't agree with makes a point well? Common courtesy and maturity is a good thing.

I think this is the only post in this thread that I have agreed with completely without, you know, writing it myself. Aside from the spellcheck I just ran it through.

Hollyday:

Therumancer:
snip

You put your argument really persuasively but I really couldn't disagree with you more. I don't see how anyone can say that the portrayal of women across the media is balanced.

There are too many possible examples to look at this through, but one which illustrates the point well is this:

There is one female character in the top 20 (Ripley at number 9).

Don't you think that's, well, really really odd? Surely there should be a pretty 50/50 split? Even if it was mostly men voting (which I believe it was) it's still possible to identify with female characters. Why such the vast difference?

I think it's because there just aren't as many memorable roles written for women in films. Female characters are often portrayed as tired cliches in even the most worthy, interesting, fun films. I voted in this poll - you had to submit your 5 favourite characters - and all my choices were men. I'm finding it really hard even now to think of any female characters who might deserve a place on this list. Is that because women aren't as interesting as men? aren't as heroic? aren't as easy to identify with? of course not. It's because these great, iconic roles just aren't written for women. A woman in the vast majority of films is there to be eye-candy, to provide momentum for the plot (like her being kidnapped/attacked/killed), to be a love-interest or just be there as a token nod to prove that they are aware that women exist.

This isn't the situation because we want it to be - how could anyone think that it's normal to ignore/marginalise 50% of the earth's population in this way? - it's the way it is because this is the way it's always been and no one is trying to change it. Your comment that everything is fine as it is and by making writers include more women we would somehow take away from the experience is absurd: how can we possibly know that until we try? As a woman I know that I want this to change - however, I know that many other men and women don't see a problem at all. That's fine. There will always be these types of films for you to enjoy. But surely equal representation is not just entitled whining, it's what needs to happen?

On a quicker note, your point about male stereotypes, with muscles and steroids etc. is valid up until a point but there is a big difference between a sexualised character and a power fantasy. Early posts on this thread explain that much better than I could though.

Actually the big muscles are a sexual fantasy along with a power one. That's considered to be attractive, women go gaga for "hunks", there is a reason why groups like the Chippendales are mostly bodybuilder types. A big part of the fantasy of having the huge muscles is getting the girls with them.

It's sort of like breasts, not every guy finds large breasts attractive, but enough do where it's a safe bet that if you have big ones your odds of finding someone you find attractive who wants you go up substantially.

Those guys who pump iron at the beach don't do it to show off their power. The whole thing is "hey ladeez look at thuse massive arm boulders and this six pack... watch me flex, oh yeah...". It's like the male version of swimsuit behavior. :P


-

Your arguement about movie characters is inherantly loaded. You can take any list point to who isn't there and claim it's in some way biased, especially if one group dominated. It's like saying that a lack of white players on certain recent sports lists of best players is actually proof of some racist conspiricy to keep the white man down. I'm sure you could take a look at a "100 best characters list" which is pretty much an opinion piece, and probably find 20 or 30 groups you could claim it's bigoted against. In reality the most you can claim is that your taste in what makes a good character is differant from Empire's or those that care enough to have answered the polls.

That said, being an "all time" list also loads it, because while sexism is currently not an issue, and most definatly not within video games, in past decades it was an issue. Back when feminism actually stood for something valid in like the 1960s and 1970s the various "Bond Girls" were a big deal due to the way they were breaking stereotypes by not being demure and covered all the time. Women showing sexuality there and in control of it, and in things like Playboy was actually empowering. Things, and the flow of them changed, but if you figure it's only been a non issue for the last few decades it's less surprising. If you were to say limit the list to say "best 100 movie characters from the last 30 years" going back to say 1982 which is around where this battle had been more or less won and started to become more political than anything, your more likely to see more stand outs. Likewise when it comes to opinion pieces it depends on who you ask or is compiling the data.

Besides which, none of this has to do with anything, the discussion is about some Vlogger claiming that the tropes/characters in video games are sexist and offensive and campaigning to get people to fund a bigger platform for her, so she can spread the message of how wrong and male dominated it all is.

The kind of thing she's getting on is say asking the question of why a character like Bloodrayne runs around killing people in a leather catsuit. The answer is "because it's more fun that way" and that's not just from a male dominated perspective either. When women write their killer vampire characters they tend to also do a lot of their violence in exotic and sexy costumes, oftentimes irregardless of the period. There is nothing inherantly wrong, exploitive, or one sided about the character. Indeed Bloodrayne (which was a mixed success, it did get a sequel and a few B movie tie ins) was probably green lit because it's such a universally appealing image, and one which hadn't at that time been exploited much.

Take a bunch of popular characters from mainstream fantasy novels aimed mostly at women (many of which have gone successfully cross gender in their artwork) and think about how they would look if rendered as video game characters. On average, they would wind up being exactly like what we see now, in part because it's those kinds of characters that inspire the ones in video games and such. The gaming industry doesn't do it because they are "ignoring 50% of the potential audience" but because this is what women as a whole and want and create/read about on their own, and it also happens to have universal appeal.

If someone decided to make an Anita Blake video game, or one based off of Kim Harrison's "Hollows" series (which I read) ladies like this Vlogger would be screaming a proper representation of the characters would be "exploitive male fantasy", which is lulzworthy because of both the author, and the target audience they were created for.

Jay Smooth nails this.

Balobo:

ACman:

Trekkie:
exactly. also if a woman falsely accuses a man, then that police time and resources has been wasted that could have been used to stop an actual crime.

So women shouldn't report rape?
All women should be blamed for the few that falsely report rape?
All rape isn't really rape but women feeling bad the next morning?
Rape shouldn't be investigated because the women may be making a false accusation?

Mate, your attitude is more than a little disgusting. If a person is raped and the report it to police they deserve, nay, absolutely must have their claims taken seriously.

If you want to have a go at someone have a go at the predatory nature of US prosecutors who instead of simply presenting the facts have an almost psychopathic drive to win at all costs.

It's not just rape defendants who get the hard end in the US justice system. Prosecutors often go for the highest possible charge regardless of whether it may fit the crime. Usually it is to cow the defendant into taking a plea bargain because nobody is sure that they can "win" a jury trial. But sometimes I have to wonder at the ethical landscape that prosecutors live in.

Possession gets turned into trafficking, lending a car to a mate gets turned into a murder charge, completely innocent accidents turn into manslaughter charges, miscarraiges get turned into murders.

It's fucked.

BUT IT IS NOT OKAY TO BLAME WOMEN FOR RAPE.

what does this have to do with asking for a thousand bucks to make a fucking youtube video

I agree, I looked at the post count and thought "1000+ posts WTF is going on there?" then I looked at the subject and thought "I gueessing that they should re-name the thread "Thread- Attracts-Misogynist-Horde"

Spearmaster:
Wait...am I wrong or is the sexist portrayal of some women in video games used to exploit a male demographic? Wouldn't that mean its using sex appeal of artificial characters to exploit men for bigger profit and making men a victim as well?

It doesn't make men "victims," considering not all (if any) men are sex robots who can't help but buy games that promise big-breasted women who are largely one-dimensional.

Plus there wouldn't be anything to exploit if the men weren't predisposed to accepting (or actively desiring) material that is sexist/etc, considering men who don't like sexism aren't the ones buying these games or being exploited by developers who make them.

Thus the image of women has been damaged but is used to trick real men out of real money and also providing them with a possible biased/sexist view of women. I do realize this works both ways but games are marketed more towards men making us the intended victims.

You're making it sound like video games are training men to be sexist and therefore men are the real victims of the situation. Video games can't train men (or women) to be anything unless they are predisposed to be that already (video games don't make people violent unless they had a violent streak to begin with; video games can't make people sexist unless they already assumed the stereotypes perpetuated in the games were true, etc).

It is depressing that I don't have the physique of any of the male video game heroes. Probably the same for women.

But here's the thing: those big-muscled men aren't there for women (or men) to oogle at, and they typically have important contributions to the plot or the action. They aren't objectifying men, but providing the player (who is typically presumed to be a man) with a shell through which he can enact his own power fantasy. Considering the man probably wouldn't be playing the game if he didn't think what the character was doing was cool in some way, it's fair to say that by pretending to be this character, the man can derive some satisfaction (at least from the character's actions, if not from the fact that he himself wishes he COULD have those big muscles, etc).

When women are dressed like strippers and sluts and/or have ridiculous proportions, it's generally obvious that it's not done for the purpose of allowing women to have their own power fantasy (or comparable experience). I think it's safe to assume few women gamers dream of dressing like sluts, or being the inconsequential sidekick for the guys who go out and actually do the cool stuff. The women are typically (not always, obviously, but typically) there for the purpose of pleasing those guys who like oogling at scantily-clad women, or for the purpose of sticking a love interest into the plot in the case of lazy script-writing, etc.

In other words, neither sex is necessarily depicted in a realistic way, but the problem is women are generally depicted in a manner meant to please men sexually, and men are generally depicted in a manner meant to please men who want to slip into an idealized version of themselves. In order for depictions of men to be equally sexist, you'd basically have to create the same kind of soft-core porn effect for women (i.e., attractive men with six-pack abs who never wear shirts and are just there for the women gamers to stare at and/or who are just there as an accessory to a female lead who actually gets to do all the cool stuff or act like a real person).

JerrytheBullfrog:

Jay Smooth nails this.

Awesome.

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