Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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minuialear:

Spearmaster:
snip

So its more the way women aren't realistically portrayed then?...and the fact that its used to target men is because men that respond to it positively are already sexist?...so if men that respond positively are already sexist and men that don't wont become sexist because of it then if it doesn't change men how does it affect women different?
Is it that there are no proper role models for women in games?
There aren't for men either so it then must be that there are just not any/enough women in major roles in games that aren't of the submissive/hooker archtype?
It cant be gender roles because both sexes are stereotyped horribly.

I can see how its a stereotype problem, I do see it as a problem (girls need games to), but how is it an equal rights for women issue? and how does it hurt women if its not changed?

In my original post I also said

"Also what can actually be done about it other than a direct boycott or asking them nice to stop, even the most impressive speech or rant about a problem without a viable solution is just whining right?"

it was the only part that has not got any response.
How can we fix it?

Therumancer:
there is literally zero good that can come from anything that she claims to represent, since the issue she is "addressing" doesn't exist

Wait.

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.

Can't play them on World of Warcraft. Can't play them on Rock Band. Heck, I think the only place I can play girls without big boobs is when the characters are childlike or cartoony (and sometimes even the kids are sexed up, see e.g. 15-year-old Rikku from Final Fantasy X).

But let's get back to your argument:

Therumancer:
how would you try and shut her down if you were of a mind to do so? You can say you wouldn't engage in E-intimidation, but at the same time it's not like there are any other recourses.

So, when someone says something you don't like, or engages in a study attempting to prove a position you disagree with, the proper response is to gag them? What the hell, man?

Let's try this: All the people in the world get to say things, and some of them will be right and a lot of them will be wrong. And you can choose which ones you listen to. But you don't have any right to go around deciding which ones OTHER PEOPLE get to listen to. Let alone deciding which ones other people give their money to.

I mean, clearly enough people disagree with your premise (they think this issue exists and is worth discussing) that they managed to raise all the money she needed in, what, 24 hours?

You ever hear the quote "I may disagree with what you're saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it?" Or here's one I read the other day: "We can have intellectual individualism and the rich cultural diversities that we owe to exceptional minds only at the price of occasional eccentricity and abnormal attitudes."

People are free to differ. No one should be praising people for shutting them up.

Balobo:

I see plenty of people make quality videos for free. What makes hers different?

Is it because she's fighting for the rights of women everywhere by researching (Googling) about female characters in vidya and making a video about it? (lol)

Ehm... Have you read what I wrote? Because I explained why she asks for donations.

Hollyday:
Isn't that like saying that you shouldn't study the second world war in a history lesson because it's only one small part of history and that's narrow-minded. You should study ALL HISTORY in this lesson! Hey, the lesson is only an hour, but I'm sure we can squeeze everything in.

It would be a narrow-minded view if only stereotypes of women were acknowledged. They're not. At no point does the video-maker say that the only problem in video games is sexism against women. But in a short series of videos it isn't possible to cover all the stereotypes which are present in the industry, or the media as a whole, and it would be extremely daft to try. I'm interested to see these videos, just as I'd be interested to see a video series on homophobia, racism, elitism, ageism or any other -ism you care to mention.

Your over-analysing point is spot-on and it happens a lot. However, ignoring things does nothing. What's worse: bringing legitimate issues to people's attention and risk a couple of people over-analysing, or never saying anything and letting things go on as they always have. As long as we have intelligent people critiquing the media and the critics themselves I don't feel that 'over-analysing' is as big of a problem as many others do.

It is somewhat like that, only more applying to the whole curiculum than a single class. It would be narrow-minded if it happened and I'm sure the creator has more than one priority in life but I just felt it apt to state perhaps a more well-formed version of what all of these... violent rapists who inhabit the YouTube comments section were trying to say.

I honestly can't tell if they're being serious, on that note! Hell, I wouldn't put it past 4 Chan or some community like that to have a little troll at someone's expense... maybe they're even generating publicity? Who can say?

I indeed do not promote ignorance when it comes to subjects such as sexism, I merely promote caution. It is entirely possible to fall into the trap of favouring one side or the other, a desire to see something or an expectation causing false-negative and false-positives in research, etc, etc.

I actually think she's fairly correct, but again I think by looking at the industry, the priorities are wrong. As I said in the "Gamers make poor feminists"-thread...gamers make poor feminists! In general.

The industry reacts to the needs of the market, and the consumers obviously wants this kind of crap. It appears to be in -slight- decline, as there relativly recently has been a growth in popularity for games that treat women as something other then sex objects, but the problem remains with the GAMERS themselves, and not neccecerily with the gaming companies. Not that that's always the case, mind you.

Fortunetly, the standard gamer isnt what they used to be 20 years ago. Then it was practicly 99% dudes. Today, female gamers make up 42% of the gamerbase in America. I dont have numbers for the rest of the world but its probably higher then you'd think. One can only hope that this shift will result in a greater change in the video games market.

Despite this great shift in the numbers female-male gamers, harassment against female gamers is a BIG problem, and a very common occurance. Why? Im guessing the internetz has something to do with it, and the fact that most gamers are still hormon-riddled teenagers that sometimes just say the most stupid things without really meaning it. Its probably the case with many of those youtube comments.

This is not a problem that's going to go away easily, as gender roles has existed deep in the human mind for millenia, and its not easy for them to change. But I give credit to this woman for at least giving it a shot, because its definetly not going to change if people dont try.

158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

Wow, over 1000 comments, this kinda stuff really gets peoples blood boiling, doesn't it?

I don't want to take part in the debate but really why does she need tens of thousands of dollars to make 6 videos?
I don't understand how this kickstarter thing works. What if she doesn't do what she promised or gets more donations than needed, she gets to keep the money?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OExCdOImmVA

My thoughts on the matter.

And yes, she probably keep the extra money in her pocket instead of doing something that could help someone who knight need like battered housewives, Children in need, something like that.

I'm really tired, so apologies in advance if I ramble a bit.

Spearmaster:
So its more the way women aren't realistically portrayed then?

Not quite, because again, men aren't always portrayed realistically, either; but the difference is, men aren't portrayed realistically because they're portrayed in a manner that is supposed to please their desire to role-play as a rough, chisled man with weapons who gets to do all these cool things in the game. Women usually aren't portrayed unrealistically because they're pleasing some desire for anyone to play through that perspective; it's typically because the slutty clothes and skimpier personality appeals to those (assumed to be men) who need/want women as dressing for the power fantasy described above. I.e., they're not there for the purpose of providing anything to the experience other than to fulfill sexual desires or adhere to various other female stereotypes in order to have the narrative "make sense" to the demographic it's being directed towards (i.e., gaming teens, which seem to have a lot of trouble staying on the right side of the whole sexism issue). In other words, the difference is that you're rarely going to just see the unrealistic men sprinkled into the game for a purpose as shallow as being eye-candy for the gamers. Now, whether the unrealistic women are actually attractive and/or the chisled men actually help with the power fantasy is of course subjective and debatable, but the reasons why they are made that way are arguably more important than whether they actually achieve that goal.

so if men that respond positively are already sexist and men that don't wont become sexist because of it then if it doesn't change men how does it affect women different?

People can change because people don't always start out as being completely not sexist or completely sexist. Most are in a grey area where they have assumptions about guys and girls but haven't necessarily gotten to the point where they'll say with confidence that those stereotypes are true (for example, they may subconsciously doubt that straight guys can like pink or that girls can open jars, but this hasn't become an absolute yet). If such people are lazy thinkers (which many are) and only (or mostly) given negative examples of how girls/guys act, these examples start to validate their own negative positions, and cause them to have the confidence to move into full-blown sexism. Using the examples above, if every show on television shows women going to their boyfriends with jars to open, this may start to validate the perception the person has on women regarding jars, simply because being exposed to the same stereotype over and over again, even in media, makes it that much easier to think that this is a common occurrence and therefore is likely generic enough to the demographic as a whole.

If, however, you did the opposite and gave a lot of positive examples, such people would be a lot less capable of subconsciously justifying their bias. If women are always opening jars on TV, then suddenly it doesn't make as much sense to assume that all women can't open jars, because so many writers/producers/etc don't seem to have shared that experience. They'd have to work at justifying the stereotype to continue believing that stereotype, and the lazy thinkers aren't going to do that.

In the instance of scantily-clad women, the underlying assumption to be validated is typically "women are here for my entertainment" or something of the like. Guys not predisposed to this type of thinking can play such games without moving towards that mindset; sexist guys will already be proclaiming that mindset on the streets. Those in the middle may think to some small degree that it's true, but they may not fully adhere to that line of thinking yet. But constant exposure to the stereotype they have an inkling of faith in allows them to justify having said thoughts (i.e., whereas the non-sexist guy may play the game and think "This is not okay," the guy in the middle may think "Well everything I see indicates that my gut is right, so maybe it's okay that I make this assumption"). If, however, gender roles were reversed in most games and women weren't usually the ones put in games to look pretty, the guy in the middle no longer has a reason to validate that way of thinking.

The problem with having a handful of examples of good female characters amidst a sea of bad ones, is that if the person is first exposed to the bad examples, then they are used to inform him of what women should be like, which typically makes subsequent good examples seem strange to him. For example, if a guy's seen a bunch of window-dressing women in various games and has already come to the conclusion that women are supposed to be like that, then making one game with a good female character doesn't just fix everything. He's more likely to think, "Wait, but a woman isn't supposed to act like this..." than he is to think "Oh wait, now I should re-examine my thoughts on women." Quantity is as important as quality in this issue.

Is it that there are no proper role models for women in games?
There aren't for men either so it then must be that there are just not any/enough women in major roles in games that aren't of the submissive/hooker archtype?

There are role models for women, but they are few in number (and that is significant; see above). While Batman and Kratos aren't necessarily "good" role models, they at least serve as examples of people gamers would love to be--lots of us wish we had the strength and badassery to kill gods or beat up criminals in a costume, even if these aren't things we should actually aspire to. How many of us wish we were princesses who always got kidnapped, or airheaded women who dress and move like sluts, or women who are getting assaulted (physically or sexually) in a manner we can't really prevent, almost every time we're in a playable scene?

(This also plays into validating people's assumptions that women can't do "cool" things that men can do, that women are weak and need saving, etc.)

I can see how its a stereotype problem, I do see it as a problem (girls need games to), but how is it an equal rights for women issue? and how does it hurt women if its not changed?

Well first off it hurts girls to not be able to see an abundance of strong role models in media. Halloween is always best at bringing this out: if guys have cool movie characters like Batman and Captain America (i.e., heroes who use their strength to save people) to dress up as, and girls only have Disney princesses (most of which depend largely on a male character to save them from their situation), what kind of message is this sending to them? If the only women they can play as in games are of that "need to be saved" or "only here to be attractive" variety, what message is that sending them? What does that tell them regarding what they can aspire to, etc?

Not to mention, when the media only focuses on the negative, it gives those with a mind to be biased an excuse to remain so. Like with race: a lot of people felt (and clearly still feel) justified in being afraid of blacks and latinos purely on the basis that they saw more of them on shows like Cops, because the media disproportionately reports on crimes that they commit compared to crimes that other races may commit, etc. And once we make it easy for said people to justify their bias, things go downhill for the demographic they're biased against.

"Also what can actually be done about it other than a direct boycott or asking them nice to stop, even the most impressive speech or rant about a problem without a viable solution is just whining right?

The easiest solution is to get writers/producers to think about why many of them put women in games, and alter that mindset and the way they portray them. Problem is, that's been done many times over already, and writers are often too lazy to do it. So the best solution currently is to make independent games that have good characters in general and doesn't play into the same tropes as AAA games. And then to support the hell out these games, to make sure writers of those AAA games take note and realize that if they don't change their ways, they're going to be out of a job. Pressure is about the only recourse we have, but if we don't apply it, literally nothing's going to get solved.

And while people often claim you can't change games because a million people will still go out and buy it--just because your message may not have the biggest following, doesn't mean you shouldn't stick by that message. Most people in the country won't back a bill for same-sex marriage, but that doesn't mean it's pointless to stay active in getting the word out about marriage equality and boycotting or contacting groups who seek to perpetuate misinformation.

Kilyle:

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.

Can't play them on World of Warcraft. Can't play them on Rock Band. Heck, I think the only place I can play girls without big boobs is when the characters are childlike or cartoony (and sometimes even the kids are sexed up, see e.g. 15-year-old Rikku from Final Fantasy X).

Son you need to learn a bit about breasts.

Lumber Barber:
158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

To be fair, she was only asking for $6k. She got $159k because, well, irony. [1]

[1] When this video went up, people voiced their displeasure by resorting to insults. Anita Sarkeesian, in response, posted screenshots of said insults to her website. This was then picked up by larger feminsit sites who then urged people to donated to the project.

Kilyle:

Therumancer:
there is literally zero good that can come from anything that she claims to represent, since the issue she is "addressing" doesn't exist

Wait.

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.

Can't play them on World of Warcraft. Can't play them on Rock Band. Heck, I think the only place I can play girls without big boobs is when the characters are childlike or cartoony (and sometimes even the kids are sexed up, see e.g. 15-year-old Rikku from Final Fantasy X).

Alyx Vance
Any female character from New Vegas, unmodded.
Any female character in mount and blade, the whole series.
World of Warcraft does have some race females without stonking great knockers. The undead, the blood elves, the trolls. Although all of them are willowy hotties or decomposing, so not exempt from unrealistic body depiction there.
Dragon's dogma.
Judith Mossman.

I realise that most of these are not playable, but not every character in games is a stacked hottie with a waist that can only be achieved with a genetic jackpot and a corset.

Oh, and while you're there, make a list of all the male characters that aren't built like brick shithouses, and of those who aren't, find ones where their size isn't treated as a plot point. So no fat guys who's job it is to be fat comic relief, no skinny guys who by virtue of being thin have to hang back and be pansies.

lizabeth19:

Lumber Barber:
158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

To be fair, she was only asking for $6k. She got $159k because, well, irony.

All according to plan, I'm sure. Now she has $6k for her videos, and $153k in 'throwing around money'. I wonder how nice the new car she's going to buy will be...

AWAR:
I don't want to take part in the debate but really why does she need tens of thousands of dollars to make 6 videos?
I don't understand how this kickstarter thing works. What if she doesn't do what she promised or gets more donations than needed, she gets to keep the money?

I asked the same thing. You don't need thousands of dollars to get recording equipment. Plus, she made this video, didn't she? She's already got recording equipment. What more does she need? And like you said, won't she get to keep the money raised? I don't care how "good" or "beneficial" these videos are. You're (Referring to her) taking advantage of people who don't know how Kickstarter works.

Buretsu:

lizabeth19:

Lumber Barber:
158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

To be fair, she was only asking for $6k. She got $159k because, well, irony.

All according to plan, I'm sure. Now she has $6k for her videos, and $153k in 'throwing around money'. I wonder how nice the new car she's going to buy will be...

People gave her the money of their own volition and that's her fault, is it?

Complain if she makes another Kickstarter in 6 months' time asking for another 6k, not now just because OTHER PEOPLE have done something.

Lumber Barber:
158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

- Asks for $6k
- Gets $158k
- Final judgement on project? Nobody cares about it

Buretsu:

lizabeth19:

Lumber Barber:
158,917 dollars to complain about video games.
158k fucking dollars. Nobody's going to give a shit about what she says because fact is that "sexist" games still sell.

To be fair, she was only asking for $6k. She got $159k because, well, irony.

All according to plan, I'm sure. Now she has $6k for her videos, and $153k in 'throwingmann around money'. I wonder how nice the new car she's going to buy will be...

Of course. Because there is nothing more predictable and malleable than the psychotic dysfunctional internet. She obviously engineered the entire situation. Not only did she have the skills to hack into hundreds of youtube accounts and create an amazing program that posted random misogynist comments to her account, she also spent years in deep cover, providing media criticism, running workshops and appearing at gaming convention, all so she could pull something like this. It's all so clear to me now [/sarcasm}

I suppose the one good thing that has come from all these attacks is the level of attention it's receiving from the video game community. I, for one, am definitely going to be watching these videos with great interest.

this is amazing. the stupidity and asshole levels are astounding

that said, I have never heard "ovendodger" before. that's downright glorious. way to go being inventive with your backwards, ignorant hate-speech

minuialear:

Spearmaster:
snip

So what we really need is more women to get involved in the creation of games so they can create games/characters that would be a more positive role model for women and a more proper representation of women for men.

Seems like a simple thing but its hard to get major publishers to stop making the same game over and over, getting them to completely rethink the way they use women in games from the current sex appeal model to one more proper would be almost impossible if it looks like it will affect sales.

A woman run game developer with a "games for women by women" idea would be a major change in the gaming world and would be a step towards equality in gaming but at the same time would create a "us and them" mind set between male and female gamers.

I think more women (and men) need to support games with a more proper view of women and be vocal about it. Tell developers and publishers "this is what we want and we will support more like it". not try to tear down and attack games that don't because that creates a negative backlash that leaves no room for a proper dialog because it baits trolls and radicals and the common fool, which is what her video and her promotion of seems to be doing, weather that was her intention or not I cant say for sure but if it was not she did not think it through very well.

Cowpoo:

Kilyle:

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.

Can't play them on World of Warcraft. Can't play them on Rock Band. Heck, I think the only place I can play girls without big boobs is when the characters are childlike or cartoony (and sometimes even the kids are sexed up, see e.g. 15-year-old Rikku from Final Fantasy X).

Son you need to learn a bit about breasts.

Well, since he asked for examples, I decided to chip in a bit:

Terra - Final Fantasy VI/III and Dissidia + Dissidia 012.

Those don't look like D-Cups to me, and she is playable, and not expecially child-like.

Aerith Gainsborough - FFVII (+FF VII Crisis Core, although not playable)

Definitely playable and no D-Cups here, as far as I can judge, although, to be fair, she is still very attractive.

You know what's kind of weird:
I only started thinking about video game characters breasts, because it was made a topic here.
Never really cared much about breasts in video games before.

TheKasp:

Balobo:

I see plenty of people make quality videos for free. What makes hers different?

Is it because she's fighting for the rights of women everywhere by researching (Googling) about female characters in vidya and making a video about it? (lol)

Ehm... Have you read what I wrote? Because I explained why she asks for donations.

Because apparently her videos are higher quality then everybody else's (?) and she requires donations to make them

when in reality other people make similar videos for free AND without ad revenue.

I'm sorry you people got scammed on yet another shitty Kickstarter lol. Maybe next time you all will be more careful with your money.

Spearmaster:
So what we really need is more women to get involved in the creation of games so they can create games/characters that would be a more positive role model for women and a more proper representation of women for men.

Yeah, although the problem I see with that (aside from the us v them problem you mention below, which is definitely an issue I also see happening) is that it takes the pressure off of (usually male, white, heterosexual) writers/designers/etc to make characters from minority demographics, such as women and ethnic minorities, that aren't caricatures of negative stereotypes. It's basically saying "Well, if you want characters that aren't negative stereotypes, you better make them yourselves; we're going to continue using the stereotypes in the meantime."

One excuse I keep hearing is that men can't write good female characters because they aren't female themselves. But if Joss Whedon can do it (Buffy, Echo, etc), and if the writers of Half Life 2 could do it (Alyx Vance), and if the Metroid (original; not Other M) could do it with Samus, and if dozens of other male writers or male-dominated writing staffs could do the same for various other good female characters, I see that as a cop-out. They could do it, if they were good writers. So maybe there's where we should start.

I think more women (and men) need to support games with a more proper view of women and be vocal about it. Tell developers and publishers "this is what we want and we will support more like it". not try to tear down and attack games that don't because that creates a negative backlash that leaves no room for a proper dialog because it baits trolls and radicals and the common fool, which is what her video and her promotion of seems to be doing, weather that was her intention or not I cant say for sure but if it was not she did not think it through very well.

That's true; playing Devil's Advocate though, by focusing only on the good examples and not criticizing the bad, a lot of people who don't understand that there's a problem with most other games see that as just further proof that games are fine. Similar to how talking about how awesome it is that Obama is half-black and president has allowed people to assume that black people are now completely equal to other races in society, because there's a positive example of a black guy (using the one-drop rule, at least) becoming president. The bad needs to be criticized so that people are reminded that the bad still exists, and can discuss why it's bad and how future things could become less bad.

PurePareidolia:

wetnap:
No its clear from the angle she's taking that she simply misses the point entirely, she is just implicitly insisting female characters have to fit a different mold that fits her personal prejudices. Its a different little ghetto where a character has to fit this or that because it has become little more than a propaganda tool. Furthermore her criticisms as i've already said show she doesn't understand gaming, gaming is about the game play mechanic, the character is just gloss over this. She misses the entire point to fixate on what she can apply her feminist dogma onto. In the end she is complaining just to complain.

Speaking of missing the point you're talking about game mechanics and dogma when they have nothing to do with anything (How can you have feminist "dogma" anyway? feminism is where women are treated the same as any other humans, nothing more). Why do gameplay mechanics matter in a discussion of games writing, specifically about characters? What difference is there to gameplay if Nathan Drake or Lara Croft pulls a lever? There's definitely a difference to the context and the writing though. Her "personal prejudice" is that female characters should be well realized and three dimensional. Which is fine. I'm not seeing a problem here.

wetnap:
Tropes are standard, you play the heros journey, not the journey of someone who ends up working at walmart at 65, or someone working the mines digging coal until you die. To complain about tropes from a feminist perspective is to just argue for the sake of it, because you have a chip on your shoulder.

I know what tropes are, She isn't complaining about the hero's journey trope though (a trope that doesn't have gender specific parts), she's complaining about tropes specific to women (making it OK to talk about from a feminist perspective) that she considers to perpetuate harmful stereotypes (which is fine, the thing about tropes is you can discuss their implications with examples from relevant media). Not all tropes are equal - some do concern women more than men - others concern other minorities, or inanimate objects or whatever. There is no problem with anything she's attempting here, it's just you freaking out over some weird prejudice where "feminism" is somehow an evil word and anyone using it is automatically wrong.

Feminist dogma is very real. It comes from a time where if you could make an argument and construct an entire ideological framework around it, it really didn't matter if it matched any reality at all, you had this in communism and the other blank slate movements. Evidence wasn't required, only drowning out of dissent, and getting everyone to nod along, in other words, indoctrination and concensus. this was all from a time when people thought people were blank slates, and could deny human nature, in communism, everyone was a blank mold to be hammered by the state into the perfect citizen, in feminism, it became about rejecting every accepted norm, regardless of reason. people were blank slates to be molded, if you wanted you could start a commune and share your significant other with everyone else, jealously could be overcome with enough retraining based on that theory, you could reprogram the blank slate as you wished they thought. every difference was simply due to culture, biology was entirely discounted. if women didn't feel like watching porn themselves, it must be a sexist culture tricking men into watching porn and thus "hating" women, that was the kind of thinking that was a core part of feminism for a long long time, some of its changed, but the core teachings and indoctrination in womens studies courses probably don't deviate much from this now because they rely on the sacred texts of the founders, regardless of whether it stacks up at all to any more recent social research or evolutionary psychology. frankly one of the reasons the term feminist fell out of favor is because theory became so obviously separated from reality, the more science revealed about biology and genetics/core differences in the genders, the more discredited it became by default.

Game mechanics always matters, understanding of what you are really dealing with always matters. the limitations of gameplay limit story by default. How could you gamify a Nicholas Sparks novel? You can't. How about a philp roth novel? You can't. Jonathan Franzen? nope.. Jonathan Safran Foer? nope...like it or not there are hard limitations for what stories you can really tell in games, because fundamentally games are about interaction, and game mechanics, not story. what is a three dimensional character anyways? this seems to be an arbitrary kind of requirement, do I care that mario isn't much of a character? no, why should i, if the angry birds angry birds are just cartoons, that is fine. if people want nothing but concentration on story, you can watch film/tv/read a book, and do it right rather than pretending gaming is more than it is. story is gloss to justify game play.

who considers what harmful to women? she makes assumption after assumption in that line of thinking. tropes are standard as i said, nothing she say will not have been already done to death already by other feminists who have spent their lives critcising media and stories, and of course tvtropes.com covers the rest. the entire enterprise is pointless.

of course there is a problem with what she is doing here. now imagine if a man went out and asked for funding for his complaint fest against twilight. he could cloak it in some nonsense about investigating the tropes or whatever, but when you get down to it, he's just a loser complaining about entertainment genre which is not targeted at him, and because he would have to assume that anything not to his taste is sexist and thus needs fixing, he would in effect be trying to impose his version of what is acceptable on everyone else. In a market where no one is stopping anyone from making a male equivalent of twilight if there were an supposed audience for it, this kind of attack/whining is just not acceptable. It is in effect bashing others for being what they are, in effect bashing women for being women if they like twilight, or in this case, bashing men for being men if they like video games with tits or whatever.

Tomeran:
I actually think she's fairly correct, but again I think by looking at the industry, the priorities are wrong. As I said in the "Gamers make poor feminists"-thread...gamers make poor feminists! In general.

The industry reacts to the needs of the market, and the consumers obviously wants this kind of crap. It appears to be in -slight- decline, as there relativly recently has been a growth in popularity for games that treat women as something other then sex objects, but the problem remains with the GAMERS themselves, and not neccecerily with the gaming companies. Not that that's always the case, mind you.

Fortunetly, the standard gamer isnt what they used to be 20 years ago. Then it was practicly 99% dudes. Today, female gamers make up 42% of the gamerbase in America. I dont have numbers for the rest of the world but its probably higher then you'd think. One can only hope that this shift will result in a greater change in the video games market.

Despite this great shift in the numbers female-male gamers, harassment against female gamers is a BIG problem, and a very common occurance. Why? Im guessing the internetz has something to do with it, and the fact that most gamers are still hormon-riddled teenagers that sometimes just say the most stupid things without really meaning it. Its probably the case with many of those youtube comments.

This is not a problem that's going to go away easily, as gender roles has existed deep in the human mind for millenia, and its not easy for them to change. But I give credit to this woman for at least giving it a shot, because its definetly not going to change if people dont try.

I'm sorry why does every game need to be a female empowerment device? Should twilight be rejiggered to appeal more to men as well?

Again, your stats are highly highly questionable, windows solitaire and angry birds tend to be included with such statistics, and well the use of questionable statistics is far too common with feminists these days.

If 42% of gamers were really women, the cash to be made would not be ignored. 50% of movie goers are female, which is why you get trash like nicholas sparks adaptations galore and twilight, there is no grand male conspiracy to keep females from having their own entertainment. That is what you have to rely on when the actual reality does not match your claims, conspiracy. After all, its not a zero sum game, a nicholas sparks movie does not prevent an avengers from being made anymore than a game targeted at males would not prevent a feminist approved game from being made as well. Never mind the other media like chicklit and women led drama/talk shows and the rest have been ridiculously successful, with no male analog in many cases. The claims that something doesn't exist in todays world because of secret sexism really does not ring true at all, just look around. They have entire cable channels devoted to womens programming even.

I think the screaming is due to the fact that underlying all this is a lie, the lie that women are as interested in games and that would be a market for such things at all. This is the wnba all over again, it sounds good to scream about the sexism, apply your womens studies 101 education for some rants, but when it comes to it, women didnt buy tickets, they just didn't care...and you know what? thats fine! somehow..somehow in this debate there was born an assumption that gaming was somehow more than it was, that it was an inherent good like education. people argue this stuff as if they were fighting for women to have the right to research curing cancer, not waste endless hours staring at a screen building up virtual points and fighting virtual fights. the entire premise is a joke. women already have plenty of entertainment options, even some which men do not have. the chick lit market and romance novels are just one example. applying this trope nonsense to those two and using the same false logic to assume a massive hidden male audience for those would be just as absurd, esp if you tried to claim sexism in order to eventually try to "pressure" the publishers to change their product for a fake market of uninterested people...

Kilyle:

Therumancer:
there is literally zero good that can come from anything that she claims to represent, since the issue she is "addressing" doesn't exist

Wait.

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Actually, any female characters at all that have boobs smaller than a D-cup.

I think its already been pointed out to you how wrong that is.

Its like those who claimed porn was nothing but big tits, kind of ignoring stoya/sasha greys and the rest, the truth is not as claimed.

how about you ask where are the middle age women, the elderly, the ugly....clearly those markets are underserved! ugly people need to choose ugly avatars! ugly pride!

I here that new game Lollipop Chainsaw is pushing the boundaries for positive women role models in video games.

Legend0fGear:
I saw this Kickstarter with my girlfriend the other day and I in many ways agree, we need better female characters in video games. I'm an avid gamer and I'm intrigued to watch the standard female characters deconstructed to their archetypes. We also watched many of her videos, very few times did I feel that I disagreed with Anita Sarkeesian. She puts quite a lot of work into getting the info for many of her videos and I'm very glad that the (hopefully) minority wont scare her into backing down!

do we really? it sounds like applying some kind of litmus test to game characters. reminds me of stories about chinese soul searching after the release of the very popular kung fu panda in china, and why chinese controlled media is the reason many chinese believe they couldn't produce a kung fu panda themselves.
"If you asked a Chinese to make this movie, the panda needs to be lovable but in a perfect sense," said Sun Lijun, a professor of animation at the Beijing Movie Institute, in the July 10 issue of Oriental Outlook magazine. "In the end, he would be so perfect he would be unlovable."
such requirements do more harm than good in the end.

bringer of illumination:

yep..pretty much right on.

Woodsey:

- Asks for $6k
- Gets $158k
- Final judgement on project? Nobody cares about it

final judgement is a few thousand will donate to a stupid cause, you see this with politicians all the time, but in the end, games sell hundreds of thousands of copies, which one man, one vote type of democratic legitimacy. kickstarter is more political donation/religious donation type of legitimacy..

Great. Fucking great. I'm gonna get lumped together with these myso's too.

Motherfuckers.

wetnap:
~The textbook definition of a straw man fallacy backed up by a number of slippery slope arguments~

In essence you confuse matriarchy with feminism when nobody on the latter side, in this case, is arguing the former. Her argument is, and she has said this "women are human beings and should be treated as such" which unless they turned out to be aliens is a phrase that cannot be dogma due to overwhelming evidence. It's not a complete role reversal, it's not female empowerment whether it's appropriate or not, and it's not at the expense of men. You seem to be stuck in the assumption that a word will always have one literal definition despite the meaning its users intend to impart to it, which is the key reason why your arguments turn to fallacy.

You follow up by insisting some stories can't be gamified citing specific authors when really the bare minimum requirement being asked for is a story with at least one non-stereotypical female character with significant relevance to the plot. To suggest such a game is impossible is patently false. This doesn't mean a story in which females have no negative qualities, or in which they conform to no tropes, only a game in which their characters are written with the same care as the male ones.

And you're right, in some games, none of the characters are particularly deep, but their relevance to the plot is noticeably variable. To go by the Mario example, the only recurring female character in the series is a helpless damsel in distress in every single game. Of which there have been a LOT. Even though she's characterized about the same as Mario, her role in the story is only as a reward for the player - she could be replaced by a really expensive pipe wrench and still have as much bearing on the plot.

Not only is Nintendo consistently getting away with INCREDIBLY lazy writing, there's no reason why such a game couldn't have a coherent story at this point, or even have Peach rescue Mario (wouldn't it make more sense for Bowser to capture him anyway?) a la Cotton Alley in Super Meat Boy. Maybe alternate playable characters other than Luigi or something - it really requires no creativity whatsoever at this point. The fact that established tropes have become tradition to the franchise after this point makes the entire series' writing a complete joke, and it's one of the iconic franchises of gaming that carries with it the reputation of our medium. Putting more effort into the writing wouldn't diminish existing gameplay and could easily generate new gameplay opportunities (see again, Super Meat Boy) through expanded context.

Basically, the fact females can be described by standard tropes is irrelevant to those tropes' quality and in all likelihood such tropes will continue to exist, and can even be done well. However an over-reliance on the specific tropes that portray women in a negative light is indicative of a cultural trend, because that's what stories are - the expression of cultural ideals and values through the metaphor of fiction. By promoting media literacy and understanding when and where these tropes are or aren't appropriate, Anita hopes to shift their usage, and hence cultural acceptance away from sexist norms. This can only result in expanding the market for video games and generally making things nicer for everyone. This is unarguably a good thing if only because it can get writers thinking harder before taking your advice and throwing out a half-baked story idea because hey, "if they wanted story they could read a book, right?".

Despite being male I actually do give a damn if the stories I play through suck or not, and I do find it offensive to see pandering female stereotypes thrown at me in the assumption that I'm shallow and easily satisfied by the laziness of others. There would be no ethical dilemma to me asking for money to make a video series about how publishers essentially think everyone's as mysogynistic as they are - if people want to support it and make sure it's done with the care they think it deserves, that's their prerogative. That's the point of kickstarter - people can and do pay what they think the project's worth.

Now, whether or not that made me a whiny loser is up for debate, but contrary to what you seem to believe, and your example, intended market and actual market are not the same thing. Intention and marketing in general is at best a guess made on necessarily flawed information, it's who actually gets the thing that matters. Tropes marketed at my demographic might not necessarily be the ones I want marketed at me, and tropes marketed at other demographics might be. The fact a single trope is not in and of itself a complete package does not seem to have occurred to you - I might buy something for the tropes I like even if it's saddled with ones I don't. Ultimately, I can still like video games that include poor female characters and consider myself a feminist, nobody's criticizing the fact that I say, play Mass Effect 2 which has Miranda in it by saying Miranda is a terrible character. Hell, I say that often enough.

If you're that insecure that you think people complaining about tropes within the stuff you like (remember, a trope is a story's building block, nothing more) is equivalent to them running some sort of conspiracy to ban your chosen forms of enjoyment, then you're exactly the reason we need to promote media literacy and by extension this series.

wetnap:

final judgement is a few thousand will donate to a stupid cause, you see this with politicians all the time, but in the end, games sell hundreds of thousands of copies, which one man, one vote type of democratic legitimacy. kickstarter is more political donation/religious donation type of legitimacy..

b-b-but she needs all this money

how else is she supposed to use Google?

It is amazing what you find when you go actively seeking it. I mean, finding a sexist assholes on youtube is just completely backing the idea here. Much like Don Quixote finding his giants in the windmills. Fittingly, most youtube commentators have about as much purpose or effect as someone flailing their arms around uselessly...

Comments like this though

The trolls only managed to prove to everyone that sexism in gaming is indeed a huge problem.

get under my skin. No, the trolls only prove that youtube has trolls, a statement that was not needed or unknown. This is akin to saying the Westburo Baptist is proof that christianity has a problem with its racism, homophobia and misogyny as a whole. Blaming the whole for the vocal minority is just an annoying fallacy and seems almost like prodding.

Looking at youtube comments as evidence of anything will yield results. Honestly, you can find support for feminism, or against it, for religion, or against it, showing the depths of human hate and bile in one way or another, regardless of race, sexuality or gender. There are assholes for nearly EVERY cause. Sort of shows equality of all humans in how there are assholes regardless what ideal you stand behind. Percentage of composition will vary, admittedly.

Honestly, I think people would be better off calling the kick starter out for being a money grub under the guise of feminism. This topic has been done to death, and a one-sided, blatantly sexist view that uses it's own confirmation bias as evidence of it's relevance is beyond worthless. It is outright harmful to the discussion.
Is there issues in gaming relating to gender? Oh hell yes! Is this kickstarter doing a damn bit of good on the topic? Not a chance. One could point to aspects complained about in the video with a different lens and see different parallels. Smurfette and a possible biblical reference as her supposed purpose as being someone to tempt, a fairly common story telling trope there.

In a bit of irony, the kick starter seems to almost be trying to reinforce the stereotype about both gamers being misogynists or that of feminists blowing small shit out of proportion and losing sight of the big picture. It drags the debate back into a familiar, and beaten to death, parody of actual discussion, to the point of possibly feeding hate and causing any debate on the subject to be shelved as people who would be having those discussions have to pull the seething mass of assholes on both sides off one another while they foam at the mouth.

I do think people should protest the project, if they feel it comes off as sexist in it's own right, and seems to, as said before, drag the discussion back 20 years. There is some validity behind the idea. The mention of tropes used and as a result reinforcing ideals has merit. But that is NOT an issue about women alone and tackling the issue as such comes off as a little selective. Some would dare say sexist. Race, sexuality, religion, gender, all do pull from the grab bag of tropes, as video games as a general rule have less complicated stories, and thus draw from a smaller amount of common tropes. Simpler stories such as a lot of game plots (especially true of older franchises that will keep with story) will use similar character types and tropes as other games.

Right now there is a bit of a perfect storm of reasons why tropes are relied on in gaming. On one front, you have the history of games, where the simplest of simple stories are still reflected still, even long after mario first finished his quest for Paulina. In order to stay true to the fans, they tend to keep the story, and by result, the character tropes. Since those stories tended to be simplest, fairy tale like, they reflect the tropes of that sort of story, with women getting more traditional rules, or outright treated as prizes.
On the next front you have the developers. Since they are out for profit, and since they look to the past for profit, they tend to try to duplicate the past success. This results in the same tropes, or attempts at exploitation outright. Neither is kind to women, but neither is kind to storymaking in general.
Finally you have the most overlooked aspect, that videogames are still seen in a variety of ways. They ARE a story telling medium, but for so long they have not been seen as such. As a result, stories told can range the gambit from epic to utter shit, with the latter more common. As explained before, simplier stories result in more familiar tropes, and those tropes concerning women reflect their age. And indeed, a lot of the tropes ARE old. The sexy murder machine reflected in amazons, valkeries, etc. The damsel in distress a common theme in fairy tales and long before. These are products of the history of story telling itself, concentrating on them in gaming seems to be missing the forest for the trees. If someone adapts an old popular story with a damsel in distress trope, does that make it sexist? Does staying true to the story regardless it doesn't favorably portray a woman mean the game itself is sexist? Is it racist to make a movie true to a book that uses blatantly racist tropes? Is it made worse because the medium in which a story is told is interactive?

I think if this project wants to get into something really deep, if it wants to sink its teeth into something important and spur conversation and discussion, it should pick its target better. Discuss media and story telling in general. Discuss the lack of creativity in all media lately, the promotion of tropes of all variety, and trope history in storytelling as an artform in all incarnations. Look into how people go back into old literature, old fairy tales, even old legends for inspiration in games and how THAT influences games. Look into business practices that stagnate and avoid innovation and change. This is not a matter of genders nearly as much as it is the soul of games and the art itself. Concentrating on women in games, and seeming to both hint at so much and yet miss so much at the same time... it just seems like wasted potential on the topic in order to generate a competitiveness relating to the controversy of the topic itself. Why spend such time, why request such resources, when you are only covering a facet of this from an obviously biased point of a repeatedly rehashed topic when it can be so much more? So much there to cover and delve into and it just feels like she wants to skim the surface about how women fall into the same tropes, something no one really denies.

On a side note, how many dark, quiet, brooding heros and overly muscled strong military men have been pumped into games in the last several years? I'll take Jade from beyond good and evil over one of those any day.

Holy crap.

145k. What is she going to spend it all on?
I'm honestly worried for her. If she can't spend it all on making the documentary, does it count as conning?
Since as I understand it, conning is receiving funds in the name of something-be it a product, cause, or whatnot- and then pocketing the money or using it for something else.

I know its all donations, but its still deceit if she doesn't use it as she's claimed she will.

And unless she can make a documentary series worth 145k (which seems WAY beyond the scope of her original project), wouldn't there being some legal backlash?

I'm not wondering this due to feminism or antifeminism or whatever. Really, any unprofessional youtube based documentary that has gathered this much funding would make me wonder.

Any ideas if this counts as con(wo)manship? Or is pledged money not necessarily spent money?

Calibanbutcher:

Kilyle:

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Well, since he asked for examples, I decided to chip in a bit:

(examples)

You know what's kind of weird:
I only started thinking about video game characters breasts, because it was made a topic here.
Never really cared much about breasts in video games before.

Yeah, I know. Video games make for such interesting conversation topics, huh?

...Have I really been away from Warcraft that long? You're right that the breasts aren't as uniformly huge as I remember (most are still quite large, though). The one-model-per-race thing still annoys me, and I think some of that annoyance transferred into other areas.

I really would like options other than musclebound for both Human and Night Elf. Spellcasters shouldn't be muscle men, honestly. Heck, I once was trying to make a version of a character I love from a book, and made him a female Night Elf because the male Night Elf was that far removed from the physical form of the character I was trying to create. So it's not that my only complaint is about the female forms.

And, really, SkellgrimOrDave? The undead female is worth a mention? "Oh hey, this one here with the flesh literally falling off her bones, with the terminal hunched shoulders and overall shape of a person about ninety, she's the one you could be playing if you want small breasts!" Sigh. (But yeah, your overall point is sound.)

Anyway. Three people gave me some examples, which is good. Unfortunately I don't recognize most of the games mentioned. And Terra? We're back to small/cartoony characters whose secondary sexual attributes only become apparent in artwork outside the game, which isn't what I'm talking about. (I do like the FFVI artwork.)

Aerith is actually one of the best examples you've thrown at me, so kudos for that. I never much cared for FFVII, but the pics that Bing pulls up show, what, an A-cup? Excellent. I'd love to see more along those lines.

The thing is, games are a chance to play as something you're not, and every time I get the chance to choose between D-Cup Girl, C-Cup Girl, and F-Cup Girl (and possibly Girl Who Isn't Old Enough to Have Breasts Yet and Is Interminably Chirpy), it annoys me. I have a figure pretty similar to the Dwarf Female on WoW, and dang it, I want to fantasize about being a person who doesn't have to deal with recurring back pain!

As for male, aged, and ugly: As mentioned, I want more options. Back when I was on the Rock Band forums, I voiced support for avatars that looked like Meatloaf, or several country singers I could have named at the time - older, fatter, with pot bellies. I don't like being able to play only young, thin avatars. Heck, my friends and I have dubbed the thinner varieties the "Starved in Africa look." Humans have a wide variety of shapes and sizes and what I'm asking for is that more of them be acknowledged, especially by games that allow us to choose our forms (as Rock Band does). We've finally got the computing power to do much of this on the fly (as games like City of Heroes show), yet most games continue to cling to the lowest common denominator of "beauty," thin females with big boobs and over-muscular guys or slim but fit teenager types.

(Note: I think it's Skyrim that I played at a friend's house, and the elves there look butt-ugly. Most of them. I don't think they were going for "ugly" but that's how their faces turned out; there's only a couple that I can even stand enough to stick on a character. When a race isn't meant to be "the ugly ones" then I'm okay with them having a couple uglier variants. And the ability to add disfiguring scars is actually pretty neat.)

As the gaming demographic continues to mature, it's spreading out into a much less uniform group. And when you've got people from different backgrounds, they're going to want different things. So yeah, choice is good.

PurePareidolia:
In essence you confuse matriarchy with feminism when nobody on the latter side, in this case, is arguing the former. Her argument is, and she has said this "women are human beings and should be treated as such" which unless they turned out to be aliens is a phrase that cannot be dogma due to overwhelming evidence.

Ah, but you see, that's the version of "feminism" that practically no one actually agrees with. Most of the things that give people negative views of feminism are what happens after you attach "therefore, ..." to the end.

PurePareidolia:
You follow up by insisting some stories can't be gamified citing specific authors when really the bare minimum requirement being asked for is a story with at least one non-stereotypical female character with significant relevance to the plot. To suggest such a game is impossible is patently false. This doesn't mean a story in which females have no negative qualities, or in which they conform to no tropes, only a game in which their characters are written with the same care as the male ones.

Some stories can't be readily gamified. What I find interesting is that there's another thread on here about "female power fantasies" which is basically aiming at "what kind of woman is an example of a female power fantasy, as most impossibly built male characters are supposedly" (since one of Anita's videos is going to be about how it's wrong and sexist to drop in a female character in what would otherwise nominally be a male role -- the "man with boobs" trope), and I think the first few answers were along the lines of the Greek Medea, who would be difficult to build compelling gameplay for. I would throw money at a Kickstarter trying to create a game built around social manipulation though, if they had a prototype with a demonstration of how they intended to do so and it appeared to have any promise at all, or the team was composed of people with any experience at all (that aren't Peter Molyneux).

PurePareidolia:
And you're right, in some games, none of the characters are particularly deep, but their relevance to the plot is noticeably variable. To go by the Mario example, the only recurring female character in the series is a helpless damsel in distress in every single game. Of which there have been a LOT. Even though she's characterized about the same as Mario, her role in the story is only as a reward for the player - she could be replaced by a really expensive pipe wrench and still have as much bearing on the plot.

Not only is Nintendo consistently getting away with INCREDIBLY lazy writing, there's no reason why such a game couldn't have a coherent story at this point, or even have Peach rescue Mario (wouldn't it make more sense for Bowser to capture him anyway?) a la Cotton Alley in Super Meat Boy. Maybe alternate playable characters other than Luigi or something - it really requires no creativity whatsoever at this point. The fact that established tropes have become tradition to the franchise after this point makes the entire series' writing a complete joke, and it's one of the iconic franchises of gaming that carries with it the reputation of our medium. Putting more effort into the writing wouldn't diminish existing gameplay and could easily generate new gameplay opportunities (see again, Super Meat Boy) through expanded context.

There was a game in which Peach was the player character and she was saving Mario. It was called Super Princess Peach and was a DS title. Instead of the standard array of powerups, she had four buttons on the touchscreen for different moods. For example, anger made her burst into flame, and sad made her cry out sheets of water. It made me wonder what psychiatric meds Bowser used on her in the other games to keep his castle intact.

PurePareidolia:
Basically, the fact females can be described by standard tropes is irrelevant to those tropes' quality and in all likelihood such tropes will continue to exist, and can even be done well. However an over-reliance on the specific tropes that portray women in a negative light is indicative of a cultural trend, because that's what stories are - the expression of cultural ideals and values through the metaphor of fiction. By promoting media literacy and understanding when and where these tropes are or aren't appropriate, Anita hopes to shift their usage, and hence cultural acceptance away from sexist norms. This can only result in expanding the market for video games and generally making things nicer for everyone. This is unarguably a good thing if only because it can get writers thinking harder before taking your advice and throwing out a half-baked story idea because hey, "if they wanted story they could read a book, right?".

This makes me wonder if you are familiar with her other videos. I fully expect the content of each video to amount to "This is a trope, here are 2-4 examples of this trope. NO! BAD! SEXIST! The End."

PurePareidolia:
If you're that insecure that you think people complaining about tropes within the stuff you like (remember, a trope is a story's building block, nothing more) is equivalent to them running some sort of conspiracy to ban your chosen forms of enjoyment, then you're exactly the reason we need to promote media literacy and by extension this series.

However, we are also talking about a group of people who do occasionally pull a "Kill It With Fire" campaign on various pieces of art and entertainment, to varying degrees of success. The example I gave earlier in this thread was that tentacle hentai card game that they pulled an organized campaign to push Kickstarter to cancel it's project, then pulled an organized but unsuccessful campaign to try to get PayPal to freeze their account.

Kilyle:

Calibanbutcher:

Kilyle:

I am trying to think of characters I can play that are flat-chested women.

Well, since he asked for examples, I decided to chip in a bit:

(examples)

You know what's kind of weird:
I only started thinking about video game characters breasts, because it was made a topic here.
Never really cared much about breasts in video games before.

Yeah, I know. Video games make for such interesting conversation topics, huh?

...Have I really been away from Warcraft that long? You're right that the breasts aren't as uniformly huge as I remember (most are still quite large, though). The one-model-per-race thing still annoys me, and I think some of that annoyance transferred into other areas.

I really would like options other than musclebound for both Human and Night Elf. Spellcasters shouldn't be muscle men, honestly. Heck, I once was trying to make a version of a character I love from a book, and made him a female Night Elf because the male Night Elf was that far removed from the physical form of the character I was trying to create. So it's not that my only complaint is about the female forms.

And, really, SkellgrimOrDave? The undead female is worth a mention? "Oh hey, this one here with the flesh literally falling off her bones, with the terminal hunched shoulders and overall shape of a person about ninety, she's the one you could be playing if you want small breasts!" Sigh. (But yeah, your overall point is sound.)

Anyway. Three people gave me some examples, which is good. Unfortunately I don't recognize most of the games mentioned. And Terra? We're back to small/cartoony characters whose secondary sexual attributes only become apparent in artwork outside the game, which isn't what I'm talking about. (I do like the FFVI artwork.)

Aerith is actually one of the best examples you've thrown at me, so kudos for that. I never much cared for FFVII, but the pics that Bing pulls up show, what, an A-cup? Excellent. I'd love to see more along those lines.

The thing is, games are a chance to play as something you're not, and every time I get the chance to choose between D-Cup Girl, C-Cup Girl, and F-Cup Girl (and possibly Girl Who Isn't Old Enough to Have Breasts Yet and Is Interminably Chirpy), it annoys me. I have a figure pretty similar to the Dwarf Female on WoW, and dang it, I want to fantasize about being a person who doesn't have to deal with recurring back pain!

I don't recall the women in Heavy Rain having unusually large breasts either.

Kilyle:
(Note: I think it's Skyrim that I played at a friend's house, and the elves there look butt-ugly. Most of them. I don't think they were going for "ugly" but that's how their faces turned out; there's only a couple that I can even stand enough to stick on a character. When a race isn't meant to be "the ugly ones" then I'm okay with them having a couple uglier variants. And the ability to add disfiguring scars is actually pretty neat.)

As the gaming demographic continues to mature, it's spreading out into a much less uniform group. And when you've got people from different backgrounds, they're going to want different things. So yeah, choice is good.

No, the butt-ugly elves are a common thing in the Elder Scrolls series, it's a whole "entirely different facial geometry" thing where they tend to have longer and more angular faces than humans do.

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