Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:
Oh god, her bias and ignorance - they burn my mind!

She actually pointed to the Smurfs when talking about sexism. I mean... what? Smurfette was created as an example of something totally beautiful and irresistable to men, someone of whom the Smurfs would all fall so blindly in love with, that they would fall apart as a society. Oh yeah, poor Smurfette, how sexist and cruel of them to make a woman with total power over men.

Heads up, hun: people like pretty girls and toned guys. If this is news to you, you might want to research a few million years of human culture.

Such is the problem with dealing with highly sexist or bigoted people, this post, to me, slips into Poe's Law. I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic. What you just posted there was incredibly sexist, but it's sheer volume of ignorance is such that it might be satire. But I can't tell, because there is a preponderance of people who actually think that stuff.

I wasn't being sarcastic (except for the part in italics). I think she's an idiot. A little less so than the, er, "gentlemen" posting disgustingly obscene comments on her page. But still an idiot all the same.

BehattedWanderer:

Susan Arendt:

Exactly. The comments, for the most part, don't discuss whether or not her point of view is valid, or whether the documentary would be worthwhile, they just come out swinging about how she's a Jew that needs a good dicking...except she's a lesbian and the commenters wouldn't fuck her, anyway.

Disagreeing with her point of view is fine, as is thinking her Kickstarter is a lousy idea. This isn't about whether or not her point of view is correct, it's about the sheer level of vitriol being directed at her. People frequently claim there's no sexism in gaming communities...well, take a look, gang. It's out there and it's ugly. Just saying "we knew this would happen" and shrugging it off isn't enough. Maybe some readers aren't "learning anything" because they're aware this goes on, but perhaps we educate some who truly didn't know it got this bad.

But there's a deeper problem we encounter when faced with this. Even those of us that listen to the disparity that exists between gender portrayal with the mind to change things have very little effect against the tsunami of ignorant bile that these people project. We can support the projects, yes, and spread awareness, and we can try and instruct others that the portrayal of one of the walking meat slabs that are the varied space marines and foot soldiers of popular gaming are not an equivalent set of problems as bikini-clad martial artists, and show them that even assuming so is a fallacy, but like a tsunami, it's hard to fight, it's easiest to board up, wait until the worst is over, and start recovering. We can ignore it, and filter out the parts of the community that are reasonable and those that are jeering because they find jeers to be a form of communication, but the insipid shouting of these asshats is exponentially louder than our discourse asking what can be done to rectify this inequality. Quite simply, we don't know how to fight it, as a community. Game devs can help more than we can, but foregoing a character creation sheet ripped from TVTropes is apparently something hard to do, and it's gonna take more than just a couple of competent, goal-oriented, real female characters to get this ball rolling. As a society, we're not good at actually confronting problems, and that gets even more compounded in communities like ours, one build around consequence-free anonymity. Right now, our only recourse is ignoring it, turning a blind eye, and that's not how to stop unwanted behavior. Unfortunately, we don't have many other feasible ways to stifle this behavior.

You misunderstand my point. I don't really care one way or the other if you support the project - ultimately, target of the harassment isn't the point. You do have the ability to impact the behavior. I'm not talking about the ability to get characters made different, I mean the ability to get people to behave more like rational human beings. When you see someone acting like this - say something. Call them out. Make it known that this kind of bile is unacceptable. Whether or not you believe in the project, you surely don't support people acting this way - that's what news posts like this are meant to illustrate.

There was a panel at PAX about online harassment, and as people filed in, a number of messages sent over Xbox Live were displayed in a slide show on the front screen. Very similar comments to the ones featured here. After the very large crowd was assembled, the moderator asked how many people were surprised to learn that things got said. About a third of the people in the room raised their hands. So there are still people out there who don't know that this kind of abject hatred happens. The more people who are aware of it, the more who are ready and able to say "No. You don't get to treat people like that."

This isn't about changing the industry, or videogame characters. This is about demanding that people be treated like people, even when you disagree with them.

Mylinkay Asdara:

Buretsu:

Mylinkay Asdara:

This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes.

But there's a counter. Any male who doesn't fit these stereotypes is marginalized. The main character must be those things, but if a male isn't one of them, they're portrayed negatively. They're the wacky comedy relief, or the camp gay, or both at the same time. Or even the villain. How many older males in video games exist to be nothing but a father/surrogate father to the main character, and are either killed off, or made into the villain of the game?

We complain about females being shallow, one-note, token characters, and are praised, but try to bring up the same complain about males, and no, no, we have to focus on the women.

They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here).

There's this thing called "benevolent sexism". It's hardly benevolent, if you ask me, but it's praising conformation to sterotypes and punishing deviation. And it gets mostly ignored. Why? Because video games tended to be thought of as 'male-dominated' so people think the only counter is to start using the same standards we judge males on for females, to bring them up to the same level.

What we need isn't more bad-ass action girls, but a game market where strength AND weakness are both valued. But weakness is only ever presented as something to be overcome, the meek character needs to toughen up. We don't need a female Duke Nukem, we need to have fewer Duke Nukems in the world altogether.

Overall, I agree with you. However, it is a little bit like saying we shouldn't worry about who's fighting wars right now, what we really need is some global peace all around, yeah, totally. No one can disagree with the sentiment of such a statement, but it doesn't really address any of the problem and it actually skims over the problem by saying the answer is a perfect solution that doesn't exist and can't come into reality until the problem is dealt with piecemeal.

I don't see it that way. I see it as there's a war going, and everybody thinks its horrible that these two sides are killing each other, but instead of talking about how horrible the war is as a whole, they focus on how bad it is for one side in the conflict to the detriment of the other. Both sides are being cruel and unfair, but one side is cuter and more attractive than the other, so that one gets the attention. Basically the difference between feminism and equalism.

Or you could say we're working on curing one symptom of the disease, instead of working to cure the entire disease.

Honestly, despite the trolling, there is some legitimate critisism to be had here. First off, you can make the videos for free. You don't need to abuse Kickstarter to make something that costs nothing to make. I can understand wanting to make a buck, but theres a line that has been crossed somewhere
Second, why is it only videogames that are subjected to this type of thing? You don't see youtube documentaries called "Tropes vs Women in film" or "Tropes vs Women in books". Is it because videogames are the new kid on the block? I just feel that videogames are unfairly subjected to this type of scrutiny when books, movies and music have used the same female archetypes for decades if not centuries.
Third, There are a lot of compelling female characters in videogames. You just have to know where to look. (I.E. Alyx Vance from Half Life, Hammer from Fable 2, Heather Mason from Silent Hill 3)
Fourth, whats wrong with a little cheesecake in videogames now and again? Its not like its hurting anyone. Although I will admit that sometimes the fanservice can get to the point where it stops being sexy and just becomes disturbing.

Anyway, thats my opinion on the matter.

TheKasp:

Clearing the Eye:
Oh god, her bias and ignorance - they burn my mind!

She actually pointed to the Smurfs when talking about sexism. I mean... what? Smurfette was created as an example of something totally beautiful and irresistable to men, someone of whom the Smurfs would all fall so blindly in love with, that they would fall apart as a society. Oh yeah, poor Smurfette, how sexist and cruel of them to make a woman with total power over men.

Heads up, hun: people like pretty girls and toned guys. If this is news to you, you might want to research a few million years of human culture.

And yet the Smurfette principle applies to movies like Inception... Do you actually know what the Smurfette principle is?

Yes and it's an inane idea. Here, do this for me, look up a dozen movies or shows designed for women--you know, chick flicks, romantic comedies, reality TV. Count the number of women in them. Now count the number of men. Was there any men? Count the number of them that aren't handsome, toned, charming and desirable.

Why is this news to anyone? Guys like to hang out with guys. Girls like to hang out with girls. By the age of about six, with no outside influence, children begin to separate themselves by gender and play almost solely with those of their own sex.

Some women spend so much time playing victim and talking about their sex, they forget that we're all human. Feminists can be the most sexist people on the planet; no one else goes out of their way to identify their gender and talk about it as much as feminists. So how about we all care less about who's a man and who's woman, and start seeing each other as human.

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:
Oh god, her bias and ignorance - they burn my mind!

She actually pointed to the Smurfs when talking about sexism. I mean... what? Smurfette was created as an example of something totally beautiful and irresistable to men, someone of whom the Smurfs would all fall so blindly in love with, that they would fall apart as a society. Oh yeah, poor Smurfette, how sexist and cruel of them to make a woman with total power over men.

Heads up, hun: people like pretty girls and toned guys. If this is news to you, you might want to research a few million years of human culture.

Such is the problem with dealing with highly sexist or bigoted people, this post, to me, slips into Poe's Law. I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic. What you just posted there was incredibly sexist, but it's sheer volume of ignorance is such that it might be satire. But I can't tell, because there is a preponderance of people who actually think that stuff.

I wasn't being sarcastic (except for the part in italics). I think she's an idiot. A little less so than the, er, "gentlemen" posting disgustingly obscene comments on her page. But still an idiot all the same.

Okay, then I have some bad news for you. You don't get it. You might think you get it, but you don't. You don't get the Smurfette Principle, and you don't get how to say things that are not sexist. You single out the "gentlemen" posting those vile comments, but you're on their team. They're in the field playing the game; you're the one squirting water into their mouths when they take a break.

If you want to get it; if you want to be a decent person who doesn't say incredibly sexist things like the incredibly sexist stuff you just said in the post I quoted earlier, then I suggest you put a little more effort into researching and understanding the feminist perspective, *from* their perspective. There are innumerable blogs and vlogs and magazines and such to choose from. I can recommend a few; Shakesville and Tiger Beatdown are both very good. Sady Doyle is a delight, and you can follow her on tumblr and twitter and such (she also contributes to Tiger Beatdown).

Enrich yourself.

itsthesheppy:

Lumber Barber:

Grey Carter:

"so you're a bolshevik feminist jewess that hates White people and does website design for Tim Wise extremist platform and you expect to be taken seriously when you're "critique-ing" video games," writes charming YouTube user, Haploguy.

Anyone who takes this seriously and not as some guy on /b/ posting for a few giggles is a moron. I fucking hate all these fucking people taking the fucking internet so fucking seriously. Jesus fuck, can't a man write something as a fucking joke if it offends your overly sensitive fucking minds?
I'm staying neutral on the Misogynistic stuff.

You cannot just sweep these comments under the table because "Oh, they're just youtube comments, those are always terrible, no harm done, just ignore them. They're just trolls."

These aren't bots, guys. These comments don't just manifest out of the cosmic ether. They form independently in the brains of actual human beings who type them out and post them. I imagine you could count the number of people posting these comments who don't actually believe a word of what they are saying on one hand. Or no hands.

Every single one of those comments manifested from the brain of an individual who in whole or in part believes what they are saying is either funny or poignant, and either way it represents a cancer on society. You cannot just ignore these people, because they pay taxes, they vote, they interact with other humans beings daily and like it or not, they have an equal say in our societal makeup that you do.

They are participating in the conversation. The things they are saying are, in my opinion, terrible and worthy only of the most focused and withering disdain. But if you see comments like that and you don't push back, it is the same as tacitly endorsing them. Civilization is naught but the amalgamation on all of our opinions, and in some cases those opinions are reached via two teams pushing the needle one direction or another. If you believe that women should be treated equally, and if you believe they should be free of sexual and sexist harassment, but do *nothing*, then you are passively supporting the negative side. Because I hate to break it to you, but there are a LOT more of them than there are of us.

If someone says "women should be in the kitchen making me sandwiches" and you do NOT respond, then congratulations, you are stamping your endorsement on what they said. I don't push back when people say that puppies are adorable. I don't push back if people say that pollution is bad for the planet. I don't push back when people say 'let's all have free ice cream!'. Because I support these things. But when someone, anyone, trolling or not, internet or not, attacks and harasses anyone because of their gender or sexual orientation or so on, I will push back because I don't want that stuff in the society I want to live in.

Trolls thrive of attention good sir. By pushing back against them you are giving them that attention. If you ignore them they will eventually get bored and move on to something else to troll.

MrMan999:

Second, why is it only videogames that are subjected to this type of thing? You don't see youtube documentaries called "Tropes vs Women in film" or "Tropes vs Women in books". Is it because videogames are the new kid on the block?

She has something like a dozen films on her youtube channel addressing tropes found specifically in films. Like, a bunch. She even identifies the specific tropes and has episodes dedicated to them, and cites specific examples in movies, even going so far as to identify specific movies in question. The video game angle is only the latest one she wants to investigate.

It helps to do even the most basic amount of research before declaring something like that. Otherwise you might make silly mistakes like this one.

itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

Such is the problem with dealing with highly sexist or bigoted people, this post, to me, slips into Poe's Law. I cannot tell if you are being sarcastic. What you just posted there was incredibly sexist, but it's sheer volume of ignorance is such that it might be satire. But I can't tell, because there is a preponderance of people who actually think that stuff.

I wasn't being sarcastic (except for the part in italics). I think she's an idiot. A little less so than the, er, "gentlemen" posting disgustingly obscene comments on her page. But still an idiot all the same.

Okay, then I have some bad news for you. You don't get it. You might think you get it, but you don't. You don't get the Smurfette Principle, and you don't get how to say things that are not sexist. You single out the "gentlemen" posting those vile comments, but you're on their team. They're in the field playing the game; you're the one squirting water into their mouths when they take a break.

If you want to get it; if you want to be a decent person who doesn't say incredibly sexist things like the incredibly sexist stuff you just said in the post I quoted earlier, then I suggest you put a little more effort into researching and understanding the feminist perspective, *from* their perspective. There are innumerable blogs and vlogs and magazines and such to choose from. I can recommend a few; Shakesville and Tiger Beatdown are both very good. Sady Doyle is a delight, and you can follow her on tumblr and twitter and such (she also contributes to Tiger Beatdown).

Enrich yourself.

I'll pass. I prefer to spend my time with individuals who don't care about their gender. The type that goes on and on about their sex make me want to vomit. I don't care what your DNA looks like or what genitals you have any more than I care about what shade of white your eyeball is.

Feminism = sexism. If you're not on both teams, I don't care to know ya.

itsthesheppy:

MrMan999:

Second, why is it only videogames that are subjected to this type of thing? You don't see youtube documentaries called "Tropes vs Women in film" or "Tropes vs Women in books". Is it because videogames are the new kid on the block?

She has something like a dozen films on her youtube channel addressing tropes found specifically in films. Like, a bunch. She even identifies the specific tropes and has episodes dedicated to them, and cites specific examples in movies, even going so far as to identify specific movies in question. The video game angle is only the latest one she wants to investigate.

It helps to do even the most basic amount of research before declaring something like that. Otherwise you might make silly mistakes like this one.

Ah. I apologize for that mistake. I'll be sure to not make an oversight like that in the future. My point still stands though.

MrMan999:

itsthesheppy:

Lumber Barber:

Anyone who takes this seriously and not as some guy on /b/ posting for a few giggles is a moron. I fucking hate all these fucking people taking the fucking internet so fucking seriously. Jesus fuck, can't a man write something as a fucking joke if it offends your overly sensitive fucking minds?
I'm staying neutral on the Misogynistic stuff.

You cannot just sweep these comments under the table because "Oh, they're just youtube comments, those are always terrible, no harm done, just ignore them. They're just trolls."

These aren't bots, guys. These comments don't just manifest out of the cosmic ether. They form independently in the brains of actual human beings who type them out and post them. I imagine you could count the number of people posting these comments who don't actually believe a word of what they are saying on one hand. Or no hands.

Every single one of those comments manifested from the brain of an individual who in whole or in part believes what they are saying is either funny or poignant, and either way it represents a cancer on society. You cannot just ignore these people, because they pay taxes, they vote, they interact with other humans beings daily and like it or not, they have an equal say in our societal makeup that you do.

They are participating in the conversation. The things they are saying are, in my opinion, terrible and worthy only of the most focused and withering disdain. But if you see comments like that and you don't push back, it is the same as tacitly endorsing them. Civilization is naught but the amalgamation on all of our opinions, and in some cases those opinions are reached via two teams pushing the needle one direction or another. If you believe that women should be treated equally, and if you believe they should be free of sexual and sexist harassment, but do *nothing*, then you are passively supporting the negative side. Because I hate to break it to you, but there are a LOT more of them than there are of us.

If someone says "women should be in the kitchen making me sandwiches" and you do NOT respond, then congratulations, you are stamping your endorsement on what they said. I don't push back when people say that puppies are adorable. I don't push back if people say that pollution is bad for the planet. I don't push back when people say 'let's all have free ice cream!'. Because I support these things. But when someone, anyone, trolling or not, internet or not, attacks and harasses anyone because of their gender or sexual orientation or so on, I will push back because I don't want that stuff in the society I want to live in.

Trolls thrive of attention good sir. By pushing back against them you are giving them that attention. If you ignore them they will eventually get bored and move on to something else to troll.

But in the meantime, passive observers will note that nobody bothers to oppose them. If viking raiders attack my village and get no resistance, they don't get bored and go home and stop being vikings. They just go right on raiding villages.

It's not like these commentors go "Aw man, being sexist is boring, because all I get when I post sexist stuff online is five million people all posting the same things I said. Being in this very inclusive crowd who agree with me all the time is boring; I think I'm going to switch gears and be nice to people instead."

The 'ignore them and they go away' principle rarely works and does nothing to make this a better society to live in; more to the point it has the opposite effect, of tacitly endorsing people who have these opinions.

This isn't just 'trolling'. This is sexist harassment and it needs to stop, and ignoring it will not accomplish that goal.

She's on almost 60,000 now.
I wonder what car she'll buy.

itsthesheppy:

MrMan999:

itsthesheppy:

You cannot just sweep these comments under the table because "Oh, they're just youtube comments, those are always terrible, no harm done, just ignore them. They're just trolls."

These aren't bots, guys. These comments don't just manifest out of the cosmic ether. They form independently in the brains of actual human beings who type them out and post them. I imagine you could count the number of people posting these comments who don't actually believe a word of what they are saying on one hand. Or no hands.

Every single one of those comments manifested from the brain of an individual who in whole or in part believes what they are saying is either funny or poignant, and either way it represents a cancer on society. You cannot just ignore these people, because they pay taxes, they vote, they interact with other humans beings daily and like it or not, they have an equal say in our societal makeup that you do.

They are participating in the conversation. The things they are saying are, in my opinion, terrible and worthy only of the most focused and withering disdain. But if you see comments like that and you don't push back, it is the same as tacitly endorsing them. Civilization is naught but the amalgamation on all of our opinions, and in some cases those opinions are reached via two teams pushing the needle one direction or another. If you believe that women should be treated equally, and if you believe they should be free of sexual and sexist harassment, but do *nothing*, then you are passively supporting the negative side. Because I hate to break it to you, but there are a LOT more of them than there are of us.

If someone says "women should be in the kitchen making me sandwiches" and you do NOT respond, then congratulations, you are stamping your endorsement on what they said. I don't push back when people say that puppies are adorable. I don't push back if people say that pollution is bad for the planet. I don't push back when people say 'let's all have free ice cream!'. Because I support these things. But when someone, anyone, trolling or not, internet or not, attacks and harasses anyone because of their gender or sexual orientation or so on, I will push back because I don't want that stuff in the society I want to live in.

Trolls thrive of attention good sir. By pushing back against them you are giving them that attention. If you ignore them they will eventually get bored and move on to something else to troll.

But in the meantime, passive observers will note that nobody bothers to oppose them. If viking raiders attack my village and get no resistance, they don't get bored and go home and stop being vikings. They just go right on raiding villages.

It's not like these commentors go "Aw man, being sexist is boring, because all I get when I post sexist stuff online is five million people all posting the same things I said. Being in this very inclusive crowd who agree with me all the time is boring; I think I'm going to switch gears and be nice to people instead."

The 'ignore them and they go away' principle rarely works and does nothing to make this a better society to live in; more to the point it has the opposite effect, of tacitly endorsing people who have these opinions.

This isn't just 'trolling'. This is sexist harassment and it needs to stop, and ignoring it will not accomplish that goal.

The viking analogy falls apart because theres a difference between a viking raiding party threatening you and an internet tough guy (Unless you play Ultima Online :p). Honestly I believe that most of the commentators are doing it to get a rise out of people. Just report their posts and move on.

Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:
I wasn't being sarcastic (except for the part in italics). I think she's an idiot. A little less so than the, er, "gentlemen" posting disgustingly obscene comments on her page. But still an idiot all the same.

Okay, then I have some bad news for you. You don't get it. You might think you get it, but you don't. You don't get the Smurfette Principle, and you don't get how to say things that are not sexist. You single out the "gentlemen" posting those vile comments, but you're on their team. They're in the field playing the game; you're the one squirting water into their mouths when they take a break.

If you want to get it; if you want to be a decent person who doesn't say incredibly sexist things like the incredibly sexist stuff you just said in the post I quoted earlier, then I suggest you put a little more effort into researching and understanding the feminist perspective, *from* their perspective. There are innumerable blogs and vlogs and magazines and such to choose from. I can recommend a few; Shakesville and Tiger Beatdown are both very good. Sady Doyle is a delight, and you can follow her on tumblr and twitter and such (she also contributes to Tiger Beatdown).

Enrich yourself.

I'll pass. I prefer to spend my time with individuals who don't care about their gender. The type that goes on and on about their sex make me want to vomit. I don't care what your DNA looks like or what genitals you have any more than I care about what shade of white your eyeball is.

Feminism = sexism. If you're not on both teams, I don't care to know ya.

You're kidding yourself. If you refuse to even put in a modicum of effort in engaging in the conversation that's going on, then I'm not sure why you're even here. You don't get the issue and you don't have any interest in learning. You're instead retreating into the "I don't care about gender" bunker, which is made of wet cardboard. You clearly do; you posted in this thread. You're just cornered. I've offered you an opportunity to actually man up and do your homework, and you backed down.

Console yourself in the knowledge that you are in good company. The internet is rich with people who say sexist things and then claim they are anything but sexist. You're like my uncle, who can't start a conversation without saying "Now I don't have any problems with black people, but..."

News flash. You do. You do care about gender, you do say sexist things, even if you don't mean it, and it would make you a better person to understand why.

WanderingFool:
Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Because Anime is a niche within a niche. Videogames are mainstream.

itsthesheppy:

OtherSideofSky:

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

(Face palm) I hate people. I really do.

How much do I care about these kinds of people?

captcha: diddly-squat

Exactly!

WanderingFool:
Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin' :D

By Tropes, does it mean TV Tropes? If it does, it might be the best thing ever.

OtherSideofSky:

itsthesheppy:

OtherSideofSky:

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into? They're equally rooted in traditional gender stereotypes. Some say that it's okay because their qualities are "positive", but I think they're actually just as harmful to structure an identity around as their female equivalents (in fact, why do we consider these positive traits? Why are we so down on the traits traditionally considered feminine?). Actually, they might be more directly harmful, because the stereotypical male identity revolves around personal sacrifice, the denial of one's own pain and emotions, and violence.

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

It doesn't strike you a perhaps reaching a bit far to say that males always being portrayed a selfless heroes who rise to the occasion and bail other people out, at great personal risk, through violent means or not, is a negative stereotype? That depicting rampant altruism actually hurts the male identity?

That's like saying "Depicting men as always being charitable has a negative effect, because it reduces my ability to determine whether or not I want to be charitable." I think you may be reaching; more to the point, I think this may be the most tortured example of a 'positive stereotype that's actually negative' I've ever seen. You learn something new every day.

itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

Okay, then I have some bad news for you. You don't get it. You might think you get it, but you don't. You don't get the Smurfette Principle, and you don't get how to say things that are not sexist. You single out the "gentlemen" posting those vile comments, but you're on their team. They're in the field playing the game; you're the one squirting water into their mouths when they take a break.

If you want to get it; if you want to be a decent person who doesn't say incredibly sexist things like the incredibly sexist stuff you just said in the post I quoted earlier, then I suggest you put a little more effort into researching and understanding the feminist perspective, *from* their perspective. There are innumerable blogs and vlogs and magazines and such to choose from. I can recommend a few; Shakesville and Tiger Beatdown are both very good. Sady Doyle is a delight, and you can follow her on tumblr and twitter and such (she also contributes to Tiger Beatdown).

Enrich yourself.

I'll pass. I prefer to spend my time with individuals who don't care about their gender. The type that goes on and on about their sex make me want to vomit. I don't care what your DNA looks like or what genitals you have any more than I care about what shade of white your eyeball is.

Feminism = sexism. If you're not on both teams, I don't care to know ya.

You're kidding yourself. If you refuse to even put in a modicum of effort in engaging in the conversation that's going on, then I'm not sure why you're even here. You don't get the issue and you don't have any interest in learning. You're instead retreating into the "I don't care about gender" bunker, which is made of wet cardboard. You clearly do; you posted in this thread. You're just cornered. I've offered you an opportunity to actually man up and do your homework, and you backed down.

Console yourself in the knowledge that you are in good company. The internet is rich with people who say sexist things and then claim they are anything but sexist. You're like my uncle, who can't start a conversation without saying "Now I don't have any problems with black people, but..."

News flash. You do. You do care about gender, you do say sexist things, even if you don't mean it, and it would make you a better person to understand why.

Why should I care what gender you describe yourself as or how many and of what type your chromosomes are? Neither of them have any bearing at all on what type of person you are. You're talking to a pansexual here. *points to Escapist Gaymers group badge* But feel free to continue to think I have an issue with humans possessing two X chromosomes. The idea is funny in it's inanity.

A little less "women this" and "men that" and a little more seeing us all as humans. If you stop to count the number of women in a movie, you're the only one noticing the genders. Do you also count the number of Australian Aboriginal people in movies? No? Why not? Are you racist? No. You just don't care what race the people are. They're all just... people.

Tipsy Giant:

I think the problem with the gaming community is the adults assume the kids posting vile things are adults too.
They are 13 year old idiots, a vocal minority. I hope the real adult gaming community has passed the immaturity these youtubers are displaying

To quote the Extra Credits video on harrassment:
` the people at fatuglyorslutty.com have provided us with hours of audio recordings have shown us these are grown men who should know better`.

It's not just `13 year old idiots`, it shouldn't be dismissed as such.
I know a lot of it is younger people, but we need to look at why its so rampant.
I've never been called a slut for reading a book or going to see a film.

WanderingFool:
Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Probably because she doesn't speak Japanese, and anything she said would thus be torn apart by people who do. This is because a lot of female-targeted material and work by major female creators doesn't make it into English (although a surprising amount does, and I think the fact that far more women are reading translated Japanese comics than American comics is partially a result of that). There are whole generations of major female creators she wouldn't be able to cover, as well as cultural issues she wouldn't be able to address as well as native Japanese critics already are (no, the stuff they write isn't in English either).

There's a lot more equality in Japanese comics (of which Japanese animation is an offshoot) than in their Western equivalents, both in terms of readers and creators. Marketers are also much more aware of their female audience when it comes to drawing up ads. Because of that, a lot of the usual arguments about issues like sexual objectification fall flat because they go both ways in Japanese media in ways they really don't here. That's not to say there aren't problems, but they are, by and large, different problems that exist in a different context.

Clearing the Eye:
Yes and it's an inane idea. Here, do this for me, look up a dozen movies or shows designed for women--you know, chick flicks, romantic comedies, reality TV. Count the number of women in them. Now count the number of men. Was there any men? Count the number of them that aren't handsome, toned, charming and desirable.

Why is this news to anyone? Guys like to hang out with guys. Girls like to hang out with girls. By the age of about six, with no outside influence, children begin to separate themselves by gender and play almost solely with those of their own sex.

Some women spend so much time playing victim and talking about their sex, they forget that we're all human. Feminists can be the most sexist people on the planet; no one else goes out of their way to identify their gender and talk about it as much as feminists. So how about we all care less about who's a man and who's woman, and start seeing each other as human.

So Inception is a guy flick?

Just for your information: Just because this principle works both ways does not mean that it is not an issue.

Yeah, keep your eyes closed and throw all feminists in the same pot as feminazis despite what they actually say.

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

Clearing the Eye:
I'll pass. I prefer to spend my time with individuals who don't care about their gender. The type that goes on and on about their sex make me want to vomit. I don't care what your DNA looks like or what genitals you have any more than I care about what shade of white your eyeball is.

Feminism = sexism. If you're not on both teams, I don't care to know ya.

You're kidding yourself. If you refuse to even put in a modicum of effort in engaging in the conversation that's going on, then I'm not sure why you're even here. You don't get the issue and you don't have any interest in learning. You're instead retreating into the "I don't care about gender" bunker, which is made of wet cardboard. You clearly do; you posted in this thread. You're just cornered. I've offered you an opportunity to actually man up and do your homework, and you backed down.

Console yourself in the knowledge that you are in good company. The internet is rich with people who say sexist things and then claim they are anything but sexist. You're like my uncle, who can't start a conversation without saying "Now I don't have any problems with black people, but..."

News flash. You do. You do care about gender, you do say sexist things, even if you don't mean it, and it would make you a better person to understand why.

Why should I care what gender you describe yourself as or how many and of what type your chromosomes are? Neither of them have any bearing at all on what type of person you are. You're talking to a pansexual here. *points to Escapist Gaymers group badge* But feel free to continue to think I have an issue with humans possessing two X chromosomes. The idea is funny in it's inanity.

A little less "women this" and "men that" and a little more seeing us all as humans. If you stop to count the number of women in a movie, you're the only one noticing the genders. Do you also count the number of Australian Aboriginal people in movies? No? Why not? Are you racist? No. You just don't care what race the people are. They're all just... people.

Oh, to add to the list of concepts you should look up, try "privilege." Because wow.

Kahunaburger:

Clearing the Eye:

itsthesheppy:

You're kidding yourself. If you refuse to even put in a modicum of effort in engaging in the conversation that's going on, then I'm not sure why you're even here. You don't get the issue and you don't have any interest in learning. You're instead retreating into the "I don't care about gender" bunker, which is made of wet cardboard. You clearly do; you posted in this thread. You're just cornered. I've offered you an opportunity to actually man up and do your homework, and you backed down.

Console yourself in the knowledge that you are in good company. The internet is rich with people who say sexist things and then claim they are anything but sexist. You're like my uncle, who can't start a conversation without saying "Now I don't have any problems with black people, but..."

News flash. You do. You do care about gender, you do say sexist things, even if you don't mean it, and it would make you a better person to understand why.

Why should I care what gender you describe yourself as or how many and of what type your chromosomes are? Neither of them have any bearing at all on what type of person you are. You're talking to a pansexual here. *points to Escapist Gaymers group badge* But feel free to continue to think I have an issue with humans possessing two X chromosomes. The idea is funny in it's inanity.

A little less "women this" and "men that" and a little more seeing us all as humans. If you stop to count the number of women in a movie, you're the only one noticing the genders. Do you also count the number of Australian Aboriginal people in movies? No? Why not? Are you racist? No. You just don't care what race the people are. They're all just... people.

Oh, to add to the list of concepts you should look up, try "privilege." Because wow.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

MrMan999:

Kahunaburger:

Clearing the Eye:
Why should I care what gender you describe yourself as or how many and of what type your chromosomes are? Neither of them have any bearing at all on what type of person you are. You're talking to a pansexual here. *points to Escapist Gaymers group badge* But feel free to continue to think I have an issue with humans possessing two X chromosomes. The idea is funny in it's inanity.

A little less "women this" and "men that" and a little more seeing us all as humans. If you stop to count the number of women in a movie, you're the only one noticing the genders. Do you also count the number of Australian Aboriginal people in movies? No? Why not? Are you racist? No. You just don't care what race the people are. They're all just... people.

Oh, to add to the list of concepts you should look up, try "privilege." Because wow.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

It rarely does, when people are forced to realize things about themselves they'd rather not.

MrMan999:

Kahunaburger:

Clearing the Eye:
Why should I care what gender you describe yourself as or how many and of what type your chromosomes are? Neither of them have any bearing at all on what type of person you are. You're talking to a pansexual here. *points to Escapist Gaymers group badge* But feel free to continue to think I have an issue with humans possessing two X chromosomes. The idea is funny in it's inanity.

A little less "women this" and "men that" and a little more seeing us all as humans. If you stop to count the number of women in a movie, you're the only one noticing the genders. Do you also count the number of Australian Aboriginal people in movies? No? Why not? Are you racist? No. You just don't care what race the people are. They're all just... people.

Oh, to add to the list of concepts you should look up, try "privilege." Because wow.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh look, MrMan999, with their paperboy title and white, male avatar, doesn't want to talk about privilege.

Sexist!

Was the sarcasm obvious enough? :P

Kahunaburger:

OtherSideofSky:

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about. Writing about the portrayal of men that I've seen also tends to take a very different approach from things I've read about the portrayal of women, and I often feel that it ends up lacking something as a result. I think the only piece on the subject I've ever really been satisfied with was written by a brilliant French woman (whose name I cannot remember, pronounce, or spell) about classical Greek pottery.

Clearing the Eye:

MrMan999:

Kahunaburger:

Oh, to add to the list of concepts you should look up, try "privilege." Because wow.

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh look, MrMan999, with their paperboy title and white, male avatar, doesn't want to talk about privilege.

Sexist!

Was the sarcasm obvious enough? :P

It could be a little more obvious. And show some respect to Captain Harlock. :P

MrMan999:

Clearing the Eye:

MrMan999:

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh look, MrMan999, with their paperboy title and white, male avatar, doesn't want to talk about privilege.

Sexist!

Was the sarcasm obvious enough? :P

It could be a little more obvious. And show some respect to Captain Harlock. :P

If I reveal to you that I have no idea who that is, will you hit me?

Clearing the Eye:

MrMan999:

Clearing the Eye:
Oh look, MrMan999, with their paperboy title and white, male avatar, doesn't want to talk about privilege.

Sexist!

Was the sarcasm obvious enough? :P

It could be a little more obvious. And show some respect to Captain Harlock. :P

If I reveal to you that I have no idea who that is, will you hit me?

Nope.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Anime/CaptainHarlock
Just Read up. Its a very good series.

Buretsu:

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Windknight:

Buretsu:

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

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