Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

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itsthesheppy:

Windknight:

Buretsu:

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

YOU GOTTA FIGHT! FOR YOUR RIGHT! TO PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTY! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

itsthesheppy:

Windknight:

Buretsu:

I'm just saying that a one-sided diatribe against the treatment of women in video games serves no good purpose, so while I wholeheartedly disagree with their tone and word choice, I share a negative view of this women who seems intent to counter sexism with more sexism.

So tell me what 'point' I'm missing?

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

There is a joke to make there. Something about "You gotta fight! For your rights! To maaaaaaanly!" But better. 'Cause I suck at jokes.

MrMan999:

itsthesheppy:

Windknight:

I'm not seeing anything in her demeanor or language that impiles her series is going to be 'this is bad and you should feel bad', more 'here's some things you may not have thought of I hope to educate you about'

She's not here to tell you off or demonise you, she's here to give you new ideas and new ways of looking at things. its not 'STOP DOING THIS!', its 'maybe you could try this?'

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

YOU GOTTA FIGHT! FOR YOUR RIGHT! TO PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTY! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

o.o

*looks at your post*

*looks at my post*

Get out of my head!

Clearing the Eye:

MrMan999:

itsthesheppy:

Because whenever women point out that they are being mistreated in pop culture or marginalized in society at all, that is a personal attack against me and my manhood. That's me, specifically, by the way. So I have to fight back. For my rights.

YOU GOTTA FIGHT! FOR YOUR RIGHT! TO PARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTY! Sorry. Couldn't resist.

o.o

*looks at your post*

*looks at my post*

Get out of my head!

I love hiveminds.

itsthesheppy:

OtherSideofSky:

itsthesheppy:

I'm sorry, just so I'm clear, is what you're saying here that male characters have it just as bad because they are always depicted as selfless heroes who, regardless of their personal struggles, work for the greater good and save the day? Are you really saying that's just as bad as female characters, who typically serve as either window dressing or victims, or both?

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

It doesn't strike you a perhaps reaching a bit far to say that males always being portrayed a selfless heroes who rise to the occasion and bail other people out, at great personal risk, through violent means or not, is a negative stereotype? That depicting rampant altruism actually hurts the male identity?

That's like saying "Depicting men as always being charitable has a negative effect, because it reduces my ability to determine whether or not I want to be charitable." I think you may be reaching; more to the point, I think this may be the most tortured example of a 'positive stereotype that's actually negative' I've ever seen. You learn something new every day.

I said it could be harmful, not that it was necessarily a negative stereotype. It reinforces the idea that "being a man" means always putting aside your own problems and hiding your vulnerabilities for the sake of others. That's not a healthy thing to build an identity around. I certainly think it's an image which contributes to the way any sign of "weakness" is demonized.

If you want negative stereotypes of men in video games, I would point you to the grunting, steroid fueled caricatures defined entirely by their rage (the only emotion they ever display) and able to interact with the world around them only by means of violence. I don't think I need to tell you how prevalent those are in games, and I don't think I need to spell out how harmful presenting these psychotic non-characters as idealized images of masculinity is for everyone.

Are men always depicted as charitable? I really do not see that as being the case. In any event, wouldn't that example be the same as people claiming that all women are nurturing or kind (and all the other bits of pedestalization the romantics love shoving down our throats)? Don't we say that those things are harmful to women? Why would the same thing not be equally harmful if done to men?

Once again, I am not trying to engage in one-upsmanship or to silence anyone talking about the negative portrayals of women in games (which are many and varied). I just think this might be something we should also be talking about, and I am pointing out that I do not see people doing that.

The problem is video games tend to be set up in a negative white male fantasy world because that is the audience that has dominated till recent years. Which means games have super macho, tough white male leads and a bunch of women(mostly white) fitting into limited male sexual fantasies. Or the women are just generally what men want women to be like(they never poop) as opposed to what women really are(capable of pooping and peeing in the toilet at the same time).

The video game audiences though is changing, it's changing quickly because there is a increasing number of various people becoming interested. Other races, women, and homosexuals.

The fans demand for male homosexual relationships instead of just lesbian relationships in Mass Effect 3 shows this. Though the fact it's incredibly hard to play a straight female Shepard in ME3 stepped the game into another wrong direction.

The response to the Hitman trailer shows a change in the audience, the response isn't coming from the usual news sources trying to claim video games are ruining society. It came from the gaming audience.

Then you have non-white male lead faces in Prototype 2 and in Assassins Creed III. Then in Assassins Creed liberation, a black female protagonist(let's just hope she's not a part time prostitute or something).

The feminist frequency chick is just aiming at one problem when the whole game industry has social issues that everyone wants to get rid of.

However, I am enjoying the fact she's brought on the attention of so many jerks who would like nothing to change. One of those comments said that men play video games to escape the real world, they don't need political correct BS in them to remind them of the real world.

Well sweetheart, I want to play video games to escape the real world too. I don't want to be reminded that men think I'm weak, defenseless, and stupid, or a sex toy.

OtherSideofSky:

Kahunaburger:

OtherSideofSky:

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Lego one, for instance - basically she's not a fan of the way the portrayal of male characters valorizes violence, or the way men are discouraged from showing emotions, etc.

OtherSideofSky:
I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see something like this. I've seen/heard quite a few takes on the way that many video games are essentially about killing stuff, but none that I know of that specifically relate this to the way games portray masculinity.

MrMan999:
Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Well this IS Youtube so I can't say this is at all surprising. It's times like these that I wish the words "game" and "community" could never be used in the same sentence. I don't like being associated with ass-hats.

OtherSideofSky:

itsthesheppy:

OtherSideofSky:

I don't know about "equally bad". I do not know of a scale to measure an issue like this, I'm not sure exactly what "bad" is in this context (bad writing? bad for people's self-image? encouraging bad behaviors?). I'm not even sure if there's any real meaning to measuring "bad" in this situation (it isn't concrete in the way the wage gap or criminal sentencing patterns are, after all) or if what we're looking at are really two separate issues at all.

I would, however, argue that the "selfless hero" persona you describe exists as part of a traditional male identity in which self-worth is defined solely by utility to others. I think that this idea encourages harmful behavior in men, including behaviors which are also harmful to women, and represents a real barrier to self actualization. I also think that the fact that our society sees these traditionally masculine traits as "positive" while looking down on traditionally female traits (which include a lot of things I would like to see male characters display more of) is just another part of the problem.

It doesn't strike you a perhaps reaching a bit far to say that males always being portrayed a selfless heroes who rise to the occasion and bail other people out, at great personal risk, through violent means or not, is a negative stereotype? That depicting rampant altruism actually hurts the male identity?

That's like saying "Depicting men as always being charitable has a negative effect, because it reduces my ability to determine whether or not I want to be charitable." I think you may be reaching; more to the point, I think this may be the most tortured example of a 'positive stereotype that's actually negative' I've ever seen. You learn something new every day.

I said it could be harmful, not that it was necessarily a negative stereotype. It reinforces the idea that "being a man" means always putting aside your own problems and hiding your vulnerabilities for the sake of others. That's not a healthy thing to build an identity around. I certainly think it's an image which contributes to the way any sign of "weakness" is demonized.

If you want negative stereotypes of men in video games, I would point you to the grunting, steroid fueled caricatures defined entirely by their rage (the only emotion they ever display) and able to interact with the world around them only by means of violence. I don't think I need to tell you how prevalent those are in games, and I don't think I need to spell out how harmful presenting these psychotic non-characters as idealized images of masculinity is for everyone.

Are men always depicted as charitable? I really do not see that as being the case. In any event, wouldn't that example be the same as people claiming that all women are nurturing or kind (and all the other bits of pedestalization the romantics love shoving down our throats)? Don't we say that those things are harmful to women? Why would the same thing not be equally harmful if done to men?

Once again, I am not trying to engage in one-upsmanship or to silence anyone talking about the negative portrayals of women in games (which are many and varied). I just think this might be something we should also be talking about, and I am pointing out that I do not see people doing that.

If you want that conversation to happen, then spark it. It's a very large internet out there, and I don't think we're in any danger of reaching a data load limit on the Escapist forums. Start one. In fact, I'll even join in, because I don't *disagree* with you. Not... entirely.

Portraying men as grunting violence factories isn't great, no. But it's worth keeping aware that they are also depicted as being pro-active hero types who are, for all their grunting and juicing, saving the day at great personal risk. While they tend to be one-dimensional, boring, lame, uninspired, and generally unlikable for many reasons, we would be remiss not to point out that on the whole, it could be worse. They could be token characters who exist only to be victims or objects of desire, and frequently both.

Bringing it up in this conversation, however, serves to distract. It makes you come across as someone who's uncomfortable talking about Their issues, and who would be more comfortable talking about Your issues. Racism is still an issue. Homophobia is an issue. Nationalism is an issue. Pollution is an issue. There are millions of issues. Right now, in this thread, we're talking about a female pop-culture commentator who is being harassed; someone who comes in and says "But why aren't we talking about the endangered snow owl?!" comes across as someone who has a problem perhaps not so much with snow owls, but who would rather *not* be talking about anti-female sexism, and seeks instead to talk about something, anything, else.

What you're suggesting is an issue. However, bringing it up in this thread doesn't serve the conversation very much, except to passively say that there could be other things *you'd* rather be talking about. The question then begs: why do you think that's more important than this?

PirateRose:
The problem is video games tend to be set up in a negative white male fantasy world because that is the audience that has dominated till recent years. Which means games have super macho, tough white male leads and a bunch of women(mostly white) fitting into limited male sexual fantasies. Or the women are just generally what men want women to be like(they never poop) as opposed to what women really are(capable of pooping and peeing in the toilet at the same time).

The video game audiences though is changing, it's changing quickly because there is a increasing number of various people becoming interested. Other races, women, and homosexuals.

The fans demand for male homosexual relationships instead of just lesbian relationships in Mass Effect 3 shows this. Though the fact it's incredibly hard to play a straight female Shepard in ME3 stepped the game into another wrong direction.

The response to the Hitman trailer shows a change in the audience, the response isn't coming from the usual news sources trying to claim video games are ruining society. It came from the gaming audience.

Then you have non-white male lead faces in Prototype 2 and in Assassins Creed III. Then in Assassins Creed liberation, a black female protagonist(let's just hope she's not a part time prostitute or something).

The feminist frequency chick is just aiming at one problem when the whole game industry has social issues that everyone wants to get rid of.

However, I am enjoying the fact she's brought on the attention of so many jerks who would like nothing to change. One of those comments said that men play video games to escape the real world, they don't need political correct BS in them to remind them of the real world.

Well sweetheart, I want to play video games to escape the real world too. I don't want to be reminded that men think I'm weak, defenseless, and stupid, or a sex toy.

Fun fact, Homosexual relationships in videogames is not new. Ultima Seven did it way back in 1992.

Also, Hitman has always had controversial advertisements. Honestly I found the nun ad hilarious. Its just so over the top that I have no idea how anyone could take it seriously.

I like this Tim Minchin bit on sexism. The sexism bit starts at about 6:40.

Kahunaburger:

OtherSideofSky:

Kahunaburger:

I know FF has definitely touched on this, and there's a pretty significant body of scholarly work on the subject.

Really? Which video? I just went through what I'm pretty sure is her whole archive and don't remember her specifically mentioning anything. I must have missed one.

I'm pretty sure it comes up in the Lego one, for instance - basically she's not a fan of the way the portrayal of male characters valorizes violence, or the way men are discouraged from showing emotions, etc.

OtherSideofSky:
I was really asking more specifically about video games. I've certainly read quite a few scholarly pieces on male characters in literature and film, but I don't really see it come up in the gaming community and I feel like it probably should be talked about.

Yeah, it would be interesting to see something like this. I've seen/heard quite a few takes on the way that many video games are essentially about killing stuff, but none that I know of that specifically relate this to the way games portray masculinity.

MrMan999:
Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

I am pretty sure the way that these guys reacted is why so many people think the internet is a bad place for kids and maybe also why there is a stereotype of gamers being sexiest.

Kahunaburger:

WanderingFool:
Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin' :D

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

MrMan999:

Kahunaburger:

MrMan999:
Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

Oh no, abort thread! If we keep encouraging people to exercise critical thinking about their own viewpoint, some jimmies might get rustled!

Theres a difference between critical thinking and shitslinging. Starting the privelige debate on the internet leads to the latter.

That's what happens when jimmies are rustled. We better not say anything that challenges any worldviews ever. Can't have anyone getting mad about something they read on the internet.

Richardplex:
here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

Richardplex:
Wow. Talk about one sided journalism. For a rational view of why people are against this for a reason why people are against this who aren't misogynistic pricks, that isn't just picking youtube comments, which are vile on every subject under the sun, and calling it news, here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

I actually agree with that man. It really is pointless.
Besides, I fail to see why anyone would pay money for a documentary that, in essence, doesn't do more than repeat the content of TVTropes pages.

I don't condone the harsh misogynist reaction -- but I don't condone the project either. But oh well, if people have too much money, then fine.

WanderingFool:

Kahunaburger:

WanderingFool:
Having had some time to slepp on this, I came back to this thread and realised something, something that quite a few people have already pointed out. She was asking for a kickstarted to make this documentory, when at least two groups, Movie Bob and Extra Credits, have done the same thing for free. I cant remember Extra Credits video, but Bob had two Game Overthinkers dedicated to this, one was showing all the bad aspects, and the other showing all the good aspects of female characters in games.

Also, another thought, why doesnt she go after Anime? Thats probably as big of offender, if not bigger, than videogames.

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin' :D

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?

JediMB:

Richardplex:
here [Edit 3 (chronological order is for the weak!):while it makes some valid points, take it with a grain of salt, as ForeverPandering is opinionated and does enjoy bitching and making fun of people. But still, he gives valid non-misogynist points against the project]:

As a brony, I'm going to agree with him on that the Bronycon documentary is entirely unnecessary. People could be spending their money on much better things than a documentary glorifying their cartoon fandom. Maybe a decade down the line, if the fandom is still alive, something like that would be justified.

Strongly disagree about Tropes vs. Women, however. "Females have ample and adequate representation in video games," he says, using the target demographic as an excuse to ignore the larger issues. Not to mention that, by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing "our" games and sending a message about the female sex to their players.

Personally I haven't participated in either Kickstarter, but I am looking forward to seeing the results of the latter.

Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

Buretsu:

Kahunaburger:

LastGreatBlasphemer:
This Kickstarter NEEDS horrendous people making these posts. Because this kickstarter NEEDS to fail.

You're about $45,000 too late haha.

Because all one has to do is say "Sexism" and...

image

Because throwing money at a problem is easier than trying to acknowledge it.

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Jiggy:

Buretsu:

Kahunaburger:

You're about $45,000 too late haha.

Because all one has to do is say "Sexism" and...

image

Because throwing money at a problem is easier than trying to acknowledge it.

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

Clearing the Eye:
Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

Watch, if it gets a response it will boil down to

"No no, they are just brainwashed into thinking they like that stuff."

You know, if you don't think something should have money spent on it, don't spend money on it. If money is being spent on it, clearly people care about that thing.

itsthesheppy:

OtherSideofSky:

itsthesheppy:
snip

snip

If you want that conversation to happen, then spark it. It's a very large internet out there, and I don't think we're in any danger of reaching a data load limit on the Escapist forums. Start one. In fact, I'll even join in, because I don't *disagree* with you. Not... entirely.

Portraying men as grunting violence factories isn't great, no. But it's worth keeping aware that they are also depicted as being pro-active hero types who are, for all their grunting and juicing, saving the day at great personal risk. While they tend to be one-dimensional, boring, lame, uninspired, and generally unlikable for many reasons, we would be remiss not to point out that on the whole, it could be worse. They could be token characters who exist only to be victims or objects of desire, and frequently both.

Bringing it up in this conversation, however, serves to distract. It makes you come across as someone who's uncomfortable talking about Their issues, and who would be more comfortable talking about Your issues. Racism is still an issue. Homophobia is an issue. Nationalism is an issue. Pollution is an issue. There are millions of issues. Right now, in this thread, we're talking about a female pop-culture commentator who is being harassed; someone who comes in and says "But why aren't we talking about the endangered snow owl?!" comes across as someone who has a problem perhaps not so much with snow owls, but who would rather *not* be talking about anti-female sexism, and seeks instead to talk about something, anything, else.

What you're suggesting is an issue. However, bringing it up in this thread doesn't serve the conversation very much, except to passively say that there could be other things *you'd* rather be talking about. The question then begs: why do you think that's more important than this?

Fundamentally, I don't see them as different conversations. I think making "pro-active hero" an equal opportunity role requires doing the same for roles like "victim" and "object of desire", so why not deal with them together?

It seemed that everything that could be said about the Youtube comments (the original topic of this thread) had already been said (I had an earlier comment on them myself) and that people had moved on to other subjects related to gender in video games. As such, I brought up a point that I thought of as a result of watching that video, reading the Kickstarter page and going to FF to browse some of her other videos. If this were a thread about one of those videos, I would not bring up the point because it would indeed be a distraction from the topic at hand, but I saw this as a thread about talking about gender in video games, rather than a thread specifically about the portrayal of women (I see that there are fortunately several active threads dealing with that very subject at the present time). I apologize if I appear to be derailing anything.

Once again, this topic started as a discussion of Youtube comments. I think that a serious discussion about gender of any kind is more important than anything which has ever been written in a Youtube comment. If people had really been debating them, I wouldn't have brought this up, but everyone said either "this is horrible, the gaming community has a problem" or "this is horrible, but that's what I expect from Youtube comments" and people had already started up the same circular arguments about what feminism is that crop up in every thread that even mentions gender. I didn't see any women talking about their problems and viewpoints (if I missed any, I apologize), I saw a declaration that a woman is going to do so at some unspecified future date. I'm sorry, but I can't make much conversation or analysis out of that and I can't talk about her videos until she actually makes them.

I brought this up hear because the Kickstarter this is all about made me think of it, and I haven't written anything about it myself yet because that happened less than three hours ago. Honestly, I was hoping someone more qualified than myself had already written something about it.

I feel pretty confident that I don't secretly want to avoid talking about sexist portrayals of women because I have written about it (primarily in the context of film) in three different languages, which is something I feel like I would not have done if I didn't want to talk about it.

Jiggy:

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Oh, bloody hell. Seriously? This conversation?
Ladies are a bigger part of the demographic now than they used to be and it's only gonna get bigger. Games are not `for guys`.
I buy plenty of games, and none of my games are pink and frilly.

Would you really justify:
`Well not enough black people are buying this stuff so it's okay to be racist in it`?

Phasmal:

Jiggy:

I can never help but wonder "is it really a problem?".

Companies design things to appeal to a demographic, so if all the pink and frilly stuff didn't appeal to girls, they wouldn't be making it, would they?

If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Is it misogynistic? Sure. I however don't really see why anybody should consider what people that apparently aren't buying the games thinks though.

Oh, bloody hell. Seriously? This conversation?
Ladies are a bigger part of the demographic now than they used to be and it's only gonna get bigger.

So? You obviously aren't the main Cashcow. I don't really care if you might be someday, until it actually is the case you don't have a argument here.

Games are not `for guys`.

Apparently they are, otherwise you wouldn't have anything to complain about, right?

I buy plenty of games, and none of my games are pink and frilly.

You are neither a little girl, nor are you the target audience. What's your point?

Would you really justify:
`Well not enough black people are buying this stuff so it's okay to be racist in it`?

If by "racist" you mean less represented or "not portrayed however they would like to be" sure, why not?

Jiggy:

Clearing the Eye:
Come to think of it, I've never seen an ad for Barbie with a boy playing with the doll... Outrageous sexism!

Watch, if it gets a response it will boil down to

"No no, they are just brainwashed into thinking they like that stuff."

My mum bought me a mermaid Barbie doll when I was about six. I loved playing with it. Why are there no male figures playing with Barbie dolls in my ads, damn it! I am so outraged, I am going to start a Kickstarter to raise awareness for men being excluded from things! Oh, right... I'm a white male. Only minorities and women can call something racist or sexist. I totally forgot.

Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

On behalf of every decent men on the internet (the others, you can go fuck yourselves). I give my apologies to all women in the world for the comments that these stupid fucks made.

Richardplex:
Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

Jiggy:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `ourī games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

Tom Templeton:
Now while I agree that woman occasionally misrepresented in video-games, she can do this for free! And it has no real productive skill. To call her out on this, fine. Makes sense to state: 'Not all woman in video-games are misrepresented, and by not giving us a show that details the making of a good female character by looking at the mistakes we have made and the better female characters as to create a better medium'.
That response is the sought of thing that should be the majority. Instead we get a vile underbelly of sexism, racism and general ignorance.
BUT
This is free speech, the concept of which is that you, as the individual, makes there choice and states it. Her choice, to create a pointless series that has been done a thousand times more meaningful in less then 5 episodes for free, is her choice and she should be allowed to pursue this. The vile backlash is there freedom of choice, much akin to how causally racist British newspapers can be. The point is that anyone can state there opinions, even if it makes your blood boil as the advocate things you would spend your life apposing.

The whole anonymity was better summed up here http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/03/19 at penny arcade. The matter of the fact is while you can say things, its not a right. Freedom of speech is a privilege that can be taken away by the proper authority, like the forum admins on this lovely site.

They can't take away your right to say whatever you want. All they can do is stop you from doing it here. But that was nitpicking and I actually liked your post. So... -A overall :P

JediMB:

Richardplex:
Yeah, I disagree with him there. In my defence however, I never said all his points were valid.

True enough. Well, like I said, I'm looking forward to the results. Hopefully Sarkeesian will have a pleasant surprise for the people who dismiss her series in advance. Hopefully.

Jiggy:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `ourī games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `ourī toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

JediMB:

Jiggy:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `ourī games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

Hot damn, you just refuted your own point for me. Thanks :)

They already have a audience, why would they go out of their way to obtain a audience they have no guarentee to obtain when that might alienate the one they already have? They don't have a reason.

Clearing the Eye:
I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `ourī toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.

JediMB:

Clearing the Eye:
I have never once seen an ad for a Barbie doll that had a man or boy playing with the doll. By your logic, this is sexism and men are excluded from many things in a sexist fashion. Ever seen a man wearing a dress in an ad? A boy wearing a ballerina outfit?

"By unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging men from playing with `ourī toys and sending a message about the male sex to their consumers."

Sexism is involved, yes. But that goes much deeper than the ads, and encompasses our entire upbringing, where girls are encouraged to like dolls while boys would be ridiculed for being of the same inclination. And that's not even going into the likelihood of some group or another of American parents likely freaking the fuck out if an ad had a boy and a girl playing with Barbie dolls together. (They'd probably say something about the boy being portrayed as gay.)

By the way? I played with my sister's dolls as a child, so I've got first-hand experience with what my friends thought of that.

As for if I've seen an ad with a man wearing a dress... I believe I have. As a joke, granted, but still. You've got me on the ballerina outfit, however. It's all about how we've created a culture where men/boys wear "normal" clothes, while women/girls wear "girl clothes". The female sex is always the exception, the deviation from the norm, for some reason. (And, related to my final point about the dolls, very few brands would likely want to be thought of as "that transvestite brand".)

But while I've no issues with saying that there is sexism involved in your examples, there's an important difference. When was the last time you heard a man complaining about the lack of dresses and skirts made for them? (I'll skip that question in regards to dolls, because My Little Pony.) And when was the last time you heard a woman complain about feeling excluded from the medium because of female portrayal in video games? You don't really need too answer, but the fact that the complaints exist proves that the market potential exists as well.

Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.

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