Kickstarter Video Project Attracts Misogynist Horde

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 . . . 35 NEXT
 

Jiggy:

JediMB:

Jiggy:
If the way women are portrayed in Games didn't appeal to the demographic (sorry ladies, you aren't the demographic, buy more games and maybe that will change) why on earth would they design it that way?

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `ourī games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

Hot damn, you just refuted your own point for me. Thanks :)

They already have a audience, why would they go out of their way to obtain a audience they have no guarentee to obtain when that might alienate the one they already have? They don't have a reason.

Actually, I didn't. But you seem to have skipped a few words when you read my post. And half the argument.

First off, the "unnecessarily" is supposed to suggest that men will still play a video game, even if the female characters aren't sexist stereotypes. It's not porn, after all. (And I'm not asking anyone to change Dead or Alive Xtreme, becuase who gives a shit?) They have much to gain with little chance of any loss.

Secondly, there's the "bigger issue" again. About not enforcing harmful stereotypes.

Yeah, Youtube is full of sexist, racist homophobic morons who comment on any video featuring certain keywords. . . not seeing the story aspect here?

If someone's making a VLog about sexism in videogames then cool, if it's any good I'll likely watch it, I don't think I'm up for paying them for it though.

Personally, I'm still getting over Radical having the balls to have a brother as the main character in a game that wasn't about crime or rapping so y'know. Guess that's something.

Kahunaburger:

WanderingFool:

Kahunaburger:

Uh, you do recall why Extra Credits left, right? Because they were very much not doing their thing for free and didn't like getting underpaid. Also, in terms of analysis and insight, Feminist Frequency > Extra Credits >>>>> Game Overthinker. Just sayin' :D

As I recall, EC left because they had a Rockethub donation for Allison's surgery, and than the Escapist came along and said they wanted a piece of the action.

Yeah, it was both. The Escapist was being dicks about the EC arm-fixing charity, and EC hadn't been getting fully compensated for quite a while. Turns out that videos with good production value aren't free, who knew?

So, if a good video takes money, than with all the money put up for this documentary, it should be damn good then...

MrMan999:

Can we please not start the "Privilege" Debate. That conversation never goes anywhere nice.

No, by all means, lets bring it up. Humanity's capacity for self-conceit amuses me, and I'm served a veritable smorgasbord whenever the feminist choir starts singing a barbershop Capella about how they're all being held back by the white, heterosexual man. Take wages for example. Every ardent feminist sees themselves as the one being victimised, held back from earning what is owed to them due to society's gender inequalities, but you know what?

Not one of them ever admits that they are in fact distinctly average, maybe a little below average or even just a little higher than average. It never really comes up that if you filled a room full of internet-soapbox jumping feminists that just simply by the law of averages, the vast majority of them would not worth what they certainly claim they're worth, in fact some of them are probably worth even less than whatever they already get.

Now I would be lying through my teeth if I said that right now, sometime this week, definitely in my own country, maybe even in my own state a woman is being passed over for a promotion simply because of her gender.

Misogyny does happen. It would be a lie to say it never happens.

But what happens far more often then that to a far greater degree, a lot of very average people regardless of their gender, miss out on career opportunities for no reason more sinister than the sad fact that they either kinda suck or can't go above and beyond the call of duty like their peers who will get the career opportunities that they miss out on.

By the law of averages again, can you guess which group the majority of these feminists will fall into?

[Captcha : real mccoy] Oh yeah captcha, your damn right I am.

I read some of those comments, and I'm currently fucking embarrassed to be a penis-wielder. What the FUCK is wrong with these misogynistic shitkids?
Captcha: "brush your teeth". And wash your mouth and grow right up while you're at it.

So in other news, I'm supporting the kickstarter.

Clearing the Eye:
Oh, so if you deem a demographic as unimportant, it's okay to ignore them and even go so far as to exclude them with your behaviour? It's okay that you and I (I played with Barbie growing up) aren't accepted into a culture and no Barbie dolls are made for us, but it's not okay for people to make games that exclude women? Interesting.

No, I'm saying that if you want something changed, you have to speak up about it and make it known that there is a demand.

And while no Barbie-branded dolls are aimed at boys, there are plenty of other dolls around for boys. They're just called "figures" or "action figures", since the mentioned sexism has determined that dolls are for girls. The question, I think, is what kind of dolls would you want "made for you"?

EDIT: Oh, hey, 2999 posts. Maybe I should do something special with my next one.

JediMB:

Jiggy:

JediMB:

Going to quote myself from my previous post:
"by unnecessarily catering to an audience they already have, the industry is both discouraging women from playing `ourī games and sending a message about the female sex to their players."

The issue is decades old. Women, and girls, have been discouraged from getting involved with technology/electronics, and as such didn't have much presence when video games became a thing. Then, while the market has started to appeal to the female gender with other forms of consumer electronics and entertainment, the video game industry has largely stubbornly been minmaxing its gender appeal stats.

You're not going to get someone to buy more games if you're unnecessarily making games unappealing to that someone.

Hot damn, you just refuted your own point for me. Thanks :)

They already have a audience, why would they go out of their way to obtain a audience they have no guarentee to obtain when that might alienate the one they already have? They don't have a reason.

Actually, I didn't. But you seem to have skipped a few words when you read my post. And half the argument.

First off, the "unnecessarily" is supposed to suggest that men will still play a video game, even if the female characters aren't sexist stereotypes. It's not porn, after all. (And I'm not asking anyone to change Dead or Alive Xtreme, becuase who gives a shit?) They have much to gain with little chance of any loss.

Secondly, there's the "bigger issue" again. About not enforcing harmful stereotypes.

I didn't skip anything, I just don't care that you think the companies should charitably be giving women what they want (anybody have a clue what that actually is?) to make them interested especially when that risks losing the audience they already have. Do you actually have a answer to this that isn't "well because PC"? What does porn have anything to do with it? Does it have to be porn to establish that the current audience might not want to play what the supposed female audience might want? Take note, Womenz be bitching because they don't like what's on offer now, why on earth would you conclude that the current, larger audience, of Guyz won't be bitching about it if the focus turns to women?

Answer that, if you can. Seems you'd rather just pretend that they aren't doing so because...no reason apparently? According to you they have sooooo much to gain and sooooo little to lose.

I'll probably get called out for being some sort of bad person or jerk, but honestly all I feel is indifference. I've seen this before and I've heard all this before. Do I think some developers use women in a very stereotypical fashion, sure, but the same could be said for a lot of males in video games too. All in all I honestly just don't care about the content anymore.

As for the video and the comments. Sure the comments are harsh, but welcome to the internet, you'll find comments like that on just about anything (not saying its right just an unfortunate reality). I don't really understand why she needs the money to do the project though.

For once feminism done right and that's what she gets, that's why we can't have nice things.

Okay, I'm done.

If this is what passes for journalism on the Escapist, then the Escapist can go fuck itself.

Goodbye, you won't be seeing me again.

Topic has already been argued to Oblivion and back. I'll just respond to the OP and leave it at that.

Criticizing the intent of looking for funding for a vlog is OK. Criticizing the content of said vlog is also OK. Stooping to low depths of incredible hatred and bile over this is over the freaking top. I know this is youtube where the lowest of the low like to play but I would have hoped that there were a few less knuckle draggers out there than this.

Having said this, this is the reason why we have the function to block comments. Religion, politics and feminism are just those gasoline laced topics that crazy ass punks love to post on and act all tough on. Best just to deny them a soapbox unless you are prepared to spend a lot of your time countering them.

Some folks are questioning, why even bother making the videos at all. Well, those hateful comments are a pretty good starting point I think. As long as those cavemen walk among us and we allow them to act like that, then there will continue to be a need to address those attitudes.

If this kickstarter is about funding women to help them bring down the highly annoying website tv tropes then I fully support it.

jklinders:
Topic has already been argued to Oblivion and back. I'll just respond to the OP and leave it at that.

Criticizing the intent of looking for funding for a vlog is OK. Criticizing the content of said vlog is also OK. Stooping to low depths of incredible hatred and bile over this is over the freaking top. I know this is youtube where the lowest of the low like to play but I would have hoped that there were a few less knuckle draggers out there than this.

Having said this, this is the reason why we have the function to block comments. Religion, politics and feminism are just those gasoline laced topics that crazy ass punks love to post on and act all tough on. Best just to deny them a soapbox unless you are prepared to spend a lot of your time countering them.

Some folks are questioning, why even bother making the videos at all. Well, those hateful comments are a pretty good starting point I think. As long as those cavemen walk among us and we allow them to act like that, then there will continue to be a need to address those attitudes.

Agreed. These guys are throw backs. It's too bad we can't actually, just, throw them back. And... like... into a volcano or something. These men/boys have small junk and a huge fear of women.

Thanks, Escapist, for the article.

Just backed her Kickstarter project.

Mylinkay Asdara:

Buretsu:

Mylinkay Asdara:

This is where most males point out that they too are stereotyped. This is true and yet it is not the same type of stereotyping in most cases. Let me briefly explain what I mean there. Men are, by and large in video games, portrayed as either really masculine, tough, burly, physical, and good in combat or smart, clever, charming, suave, etc. These are positive stereotypes.

But there's a counter. Any male who doesn't fit these stereotypes is marginalized. The main character must be those things, but if a male isn't one of them, they're portrayed negatively. They're the wacky comedy relief, or the camp gay, or both at the same time. Or even the villain. How many older males in video games exist to be nothing but a father/surrogate father to the main character, and are either killed off, or made into the villain of the game?

We complain about females being shallow, one-note, token characters, and are praised, but try to bring up the same complain about males, and no, no, we have to focus on the women.

They are still stereotypes, they can still be harmful and misrepresentative of the group, but they are positive attributes being exaggerated - and they are the type of attributes that are generally viewed as positive by males as well as females. This is like the stereotype that all Asians are good at math or all African Americans are particularly athletic. It isn't okay to generalize to that degree, but it isn't the same thing as negative stereotypes like Asian people are bad drivers or African American people talk through movies. Women, on the other hand, are stereotyped in games in ways that are not considered positive by females as well as males in general, the slant is clearly toward a physical ideal that is perceived to be valued by males (talking about giant breasts and skimpy outfits here).

There's this thing called "benevolent sexism". It's hardly benevolent, if you ask me, but it's praising conformation to sterotypes and punishing deviation. And it gets mostly ignored. Why? Because video games tended to be thought of as 'male-dominated' so people think the only counter is to start using the same standards we judge males on for females, to bring them up to the same level.

What we need isn't more bad-ass action girls, but a game market where strength AND weakness are both valued. But weakness is only ever presented as something to be overcome, the meek character needs to toughen up. We don't need a female Duke Nukem, we need to have fewer Duke Nukems in the world altogether.

Overall, I agree with you. However, it is a little bit like saying we shouldn't worry about who's fighting wars right now, what we really need is some global peace all around, yeah, totally. No one can disagree with the sentiment of such a statement, but it doesn't really address any of the problem and it actually skims over the problem by saying the answer is a perfect solution that doesn't exist and can't come into reality until the problem is dealt with piecemeal.

There are other problems of generalization and stereotyping in games (and other entertainment media). There are a series of complexities to be handled regarding each facet of those individual issues. We are never going to have an instant solution to all of them at once, however, and saying that one problem should not be brought into the open because all of the problems can't be put in the light at the same time is the path to never solving anything at all.

This is what becomes frustrating about this topic for me. I'm constantly reading that the problem of how women are portrayed in video games can't or shouldn't be addressed until every problem of representation is being also addressed and that just is impossible. It is the same thing as saying that it will never be dealt with, but in an evasive way that shuts down any argument to the contrary.

I would completely support a movement by male gamers to make their representation in games more realistic - without demanding my gender be treated first or alongside it, but I detest the fact that my gender's redress of their representation has to wait until all other concerns are also being dealt with. We aren't asking to be special. We aren't asking other causes to wait on us. Some of us are just trying to address a problem we see, and because the males aren't proactive enough to have their own issue addressed we seem more zealous by comparison and have to be somehow trying to dominate because of that. It's ridiculous. Start a movement if you care, but don't impede a movement for something else because your problem doesn't have one yet.

I just wanted to say that this post was perhaps a perfect way of phrasing something I was wrestling how to get across myself. Well done :)

That seems like a lot of money (both 6k and 48k) but it isn't mine so whatever.

Unsurprising on the part of YouTube commentators, but "ovendodger" did make me laugh out loud.

I'm going to stay out of the main debate, but regarding the portrayal of men and women in video games, I just feel like a point has to be made here. Look at The Longest Journey, Dreamfall, and Beyond Good and Evil. Then look at Bayonetta, Dead or Alive, and the recent Hitman trailer with the 'nuns'.

For the flipside, look at Half Life, GTA IV, Kingdom Hearts, and No More Heroes. Then look at Halo, Gears of War and, any Warhammer 40K game. Yes, I used a wide variety of genres for different examples in the same point. That's not massively important.

Basically, my point is, men and women both have plenty of games (in fact, the majority) where they are over-stereotyped or over-sexualised. And that applies to the men as much as it does to the women. But, there are games out there that show realistic (whether good or bad) men, and there are games that show realistic (whether good or bad) women. Both of these are in the minority of games, but they still exist. So both the Kickstarter wannabe-developer and the idiots slandering and flaming her need to sit back, look at the entirety of the video game medium rather than just their own small viewpoint, and then reconsider whether their goals (either developing an anti-trope game or slandering and flaming said developer) are really worth pursuing.

Oh, and by the way. If this developer wants to deconstruct tropes so badly, she should take a look at Katawa Shoujo - THAT is how you deconstruct something well, and still maintain a good game with an intriguing story and awesome characters. Just saying...

Dang, popular topic, eh?

Hmmm, I may throw a tad more than just a small hissy fit if I actually watch that entire video. Love how she's trying to talk about women stereotypes and such with big hoop earrings and green fingernails, just noticing.

I mean, a video game character is just a character. Is peach supposed to be a realistic view of the common woman? No. She's a fictional pampered princess that gets saved all the time. Fighting game characters? They are the apex of just being archetypes and such. I feel this and anything else that I would say has been oversaid as it is, so I will simply somewhat agree on the comment of.....christ....$49k to do a vblog. Because that's totally what she'll use the money on. I mean, if she legitimately uses all of the money specifically on doing a serious research project, I might be less concerned. Maybe she'll even learn something useful and shift her own views. But if she uses it to pay her rent or buy shoes, somebody sue her.

So what was once going to be a tiny video-blogged commentary justified by some crowdsourced funding is now a flashpoint for teh interwebz. Isn't this fun...

I'll be honest: looking at the "pitch" video, I didn't see anything wrong with the idea, certainly nothing to justify the insane levels of hatred leveled at both the project and the creator. If nothing else, the presumptions about what the project is going to be and be like before a single entry hits the web seem paranoid and reactionary at best.

But I increasingly feel that these things never become more worthy and worthwhile for attracting the most violent, absolute, close-minded and scream-happy elements of their respective fringes for and against. Especially when there might be a financial incentive towards playing them against one another.

At this point, it seems unlikely the project is going to promote dialogue so much as further presumptions about the great unwashed "Them" who can never be reached but must only be over-ridden and shouted down.

It's kind of a pity, really. Aside from my slight unease with anyone promising to "create the language" for discussion (uh-oh...), the project might have had some merit.

I must say, those comments you highlighted all have one thing in common- disrespectful and utterly uncalled for. I mean fine give criticism and what not about why you think it's a 'no go' idea or state your opinion but flat out attacking Anita with little regard to anything is just ... so wrong.

Then again it's youtube, you should of seen the cruel and unusual comments about the tsunami hitting japan awhile back. Heck even Facebook had many people praising the fact japanese people died and for what? Because most of them thought the Japanese deserved to be punished for what they did to Pearl Harbor and the thing is this:

- That was the past, we've nuked two of their major cities killing innocents along the way.
- The people in Japan that got hit from the tsunami had nothing to do with World War II.

But despite this, people will spew out hate and of course I figured gamers would attack a woman for wanting to talk about cliche' female characters. Do you know how many guys are obsessed with Cat Woman from Batman: Arkham city? Yet Anita said she was a cliche' sexualized female thus it got all those guys butthurt (assuming this anyways) but it's true that a LOT of female characters are made to be sexy and over the top... look at TERA lol. But all in all, she deserves respect and I admire her also for pointing out that Portal's protagonist is a unique non cliche' character.

Hopefully her project turns out well, I am staying tuned to see if it makes a difference even a slight of difference.

Rakor:
Dang, popular topic, eh?

Hmmm, I may throw a tad more than just a small hissy fit if I actually watch that entire video. Love how she's trying to talk about women stereotypes and such with big hoop earrings and green fingernails, just noticing.

That is probably one of the most nonsensical things I've read recently.
What strangled thread of logic links those things together?

Scars Unseen:

And ovendodger... going to have to file that one away. I'd love to use that one on my wife just so she could remind me that we don't own an oven... Well either that or she'd punch me. Could go either way.

...

Well if you want to tell her she should have died in the Holocaust for being Jewish that would be the right thing to say -__-

Buretsu:

Mylinkay Asdara:

Buretsu:

I don't see it that way. I see it as there's a war going, and everybody thinks its horrible that these two sides are killing each other, but instead of talking about how horrible the war is as a whole, they focus on how bad it is for one side in the conflict to the detriment of the other. Both sides are being cruel and unfair, but one side is cuter and more attractive than the other, so that one gets the attention. Basically the difference between feminism and equalism.

Or you could say we're working on curing one symptom of the disease, instead of working to cure the entire disease.

If you don't see it that way, you don't and your way of viewing the world is not something I could change in a forum thread, nor should I attempt to do so as a stranger. I can use your disease analogy to demonstrate that, if a disease is incurable - as some social ills are embedded enough to seem - then the treatment of the symptoms of sufferers in the meantime - while a cure is being sought by some - is the only recourse for medical professionals to help their patients. Better to treat some of the symptoms than leave everyone to suffer to the utmost until the day a cure is found, no? We all want a full cure, obviously that would be best, but if it isn't possible at the time, then treatment options should be undertaken to at least reduce the problems of the disease as much as possible in the interim.

John Funk:

Mylinkay Asdara:

Buretsu:

Snip

Snip

I just wanted to say that this post was perhaps a perfect way of phrasing something I was wrestling how to get across myself. Well done :)

Thank you. It was pretty late/early at that point, but I very much appreciate the appreciation :)

Phasmal:
Aaaand cue the people defending this sort of shit.

This stuff happens all the time in the gaming community and it needs to be pointed out and heckled as much as possible.

Hopefully, the gaming community will be dragged kicking and screaming towards a point where this kind of crap is at least frowned upon. (But I am sure I will be called `extreme` for even thinking there is a problem).

She claims that there is misogyny, and I'm calling bullshit. I can think of one game where there was a very clear example of misogyny....

OtherSideofSky:

Speaking of which, has anyone ever written about the stereotypes male characters get forced into?

If you actually care so much. why don't you do it? Otherwise hearing people always complain about people not making such things for men comes off as a hollow complaint, as false concern that's just used to attack and not for any constructive purposes that real concern would be.

Helmholtz Watson:

Phasmal:
Aaaand cue the people defending this sort of shit.

This stuff happens all the time in the gaming community and it needs to be pointed out and heckled as much as possible.

Hopefully, the gaming community will be dragged kicking and screaming towards a point where this kind of crap is at least frowned upon. (But I am sure I will be called `extreme` for even thinking there is a problem).

She claims that there is misogyny, and I'm calling bullshit. I can think of one game where there was a very clear example of misogyny....

I'm confused as to why you are quoting me.
I'm specifically talking about the misogyny in our community.
Easy mistake to make.

PureIrony:
I don't know how to respond to this.

I mean, I know at this point I should be used to this level of stupidity, but really, I can't see how a functioning human being displays this level of bullshit. I mean, really, what the fuck?

These people are on the rise. Keep your eyes open, they're everywhere.

captcha: shaken not stirred
how appropriate.

bringer of illumination:
Okay, I'm done.

If this is what passes for journalism on the Escapist, then the Escapist can go fuck itself.

Goodbye, you won't be seeing me again.

Oh, was the ovendodger comment yours?

Why is this getting lime light...
Seriously.
Also the amount of people who are backing her from reading this article is horrifying, think for yourselves.
Please actually watch her stuff before supporting her works rather than throwing you dollars at what you think is a 'one-up' to the 'misogynist homophobes and racists' of youtube and the world at large.
You could really enjoy her videos or you could find it sensationalised, unreasonable and low quality.
God even staff are wading into the deep for this cluster trucked argument

It's quite clearly a Troll campaign... Way to get suckered in internet.

Phasmal:

Rakor:
Dang, popular topic, eh?

Hmmm, I may throw a tad more than just a small hissy fit if I actually watch that entire video. Love how she's trying to talk about women stereotypes and such with big hoop earrings and green fingernails, just noticing.

That is probably one of the most nonsensical things I've read recently.
What strangled thread of logic links those things together?

The most nonsensical? You don't read very interesting things then. I do tend to ramble from one point to the next a bit too easily admittedly.

Well, firstly the fingernails and hoop earrings aren't the major reason for potential hissy fitting. They just seem to stick out somehow and are kinda prime examples of stuff that are in line with the feminine stereotype. Not saying makeup and jewelry are bad, just the large earrings and frikkin green fingernails are not particularly subtle. Maybe I rather dislike oddly colored fingernails, hmm. Really kind of a minor jab I had about it.

Rakor:

Phasmal:

Rakor:
Dang, popular topic, eh?

Hmmm, I may throw a tad more than just a small hissy fit if I actually watch that entire video. Love how she's trying to talk about women stereotypes and such with big hoop earrings and green fingernails, just noticing.

That is probably one of the most nonsensical things I've read recently.
What strangled thread of logic links those things together?

The most nonsensical? You don't read very interesting things then. I do tend to ramble from one point to the next a bit too easily admittedly.

Well, firstly the fingernails and hoop earrings aren't the major reason for potential hissy fitting. They just seem to stick out somehow and are kinda prime examples of stuff that are in line with the feminine stereotype. Not saying makeup and jewelry are bad, just the large earrings and frikkin green fingernails are not particularly subtle. Maybe I rather dislike oddly colored fingernails, hmm. Really kind of a minor jab I had about it.

I can sort of perhaps see that but not really.
Just because you're against stereotyping and lazy tropes in games doesn't mean you have to be like: `People want women to be pretty?! FUCK THAT I WILL COVER MYSELF IN SHIT!`.

Reminds me of the time some guy tried to tell me I couldnt be a feminist and wear heels.

Just going to throw this out here.

Over-sexualized and stereotypical male characters tend to be more about male power fantasies. So bringing them up in this context and saying "See! It happens to men, too!" doesn't exactly parse.

Phasmal:

Helmholtz Watson:

Phasmal:
Aaaand cue the people defending this sort of shit.

This stuff happens all the time in the gaming community and it needs to be pointed out and heckled as much as possible.

Hopefully, the gaming community will be dragged kicking and screaming towards a point where this kind of crap is at least frowned upon. (But I am sure I will be called `extreme` for even thinking there is a problem).

She claims that there is misogyny, and I'm calling bullshit. I can think of one game where there was a very clear example of misogyny....

I'm confused as to why you are quoting me.
I'm specifically talking about the misogyny in our community.
Easy mistake to make.

Oh, I thought you meant in video games, my mistake.

So she's doing a video documentary? Seems to me like she's already done plenty of those? Why does she need money for this one in particular?

Also when it comes to videogames, both men and women fall victim to stereotypes and tropes, so this isn't really a one sided issue. Granted, women do have it worse but still.

 Pages PREV 1 . . . 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 . . . 35 NEXT

Reply to Thread

Log in or Register to Comment
Have an account? Login below:
With Facebook:Login With Facebook
or
Username:  
Password:  
  
Not registered? To sign up for an account with The Escapist:
Register With Facebook
Register With Facebook
or
Registered for a free account here