Deus Ex Designer: "The Ultra-Violence Has To Stop" Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT | |
He was doing OK until he decided to play the 'righteousness' card. "I'm just glad I work for a company like Disney, where not only is that not something that's encouraged, you can't even do it, and I'm fine with it." Because now he comes across like a complete douchbag. Disney is a corporation and one that will do whatever it takes to make money. They started Touchstone picture so they could make movies that would be an anathema to the Disney brand. They own Marvel and a host of TV and radio stations that, in addition to appealing to children, do not shy away from appealing to other demographics. It's not even that I disagree with him: there are SO MANY possible mechanics for games, and violence is, with today's technology, really the easiest way out. It's possible to do some amazing games using different kinds of gameplay. But games are, at some point, about some kind of conflict. There is no game without it. If you want to find interesting ways to illustrate that conflict, great. Go to town and encourage others to do the same. But don't try and tell US that YOU are somehow better because 'you work for Disney'. | |
A few thoughts. First of all, violence is the means to move a game along a huge chunk of the time. I don't want to say it's hard to break out of that, but it takes more imagination, generally, to make games other than a generic corridor shooter. With that said, the "maturity" argument comes in different levels, and there's certainly a huge spectrum of scenarios, but my general take on it is - if you knowingly refrain from graphic violence when the scenario calls for it, you're the one that's being immature as a developer, because you're effectively glossing over what might be simple realities of bullets piercing skulls or whatever. One thing I'm amazed at here is how many people think this easy-to-offend guy is right, and how many people are using expressions like "Ultra-violent" or "Hyper-violent", especially when referring to AAA games. Jesus. Tone down the hyperbole, would you. | |
I´m reasonably sure that the first Deus Ex did not feature slow-motion, dual-blade kill cams with more blood than a human being should be able to spurt in such a situaion, including over-the-top foley effects. I guess I´m not necessarily arguing that HR is glorifying violenc to a huge extent per sp, but it is definitly more violent in more and spectacular ways than the original. And the two games are, in as brutal as they can get at their most brutal, very much not the same. So I suppose HR is maybe glorifying violence a bit, but admittedly only if the player wants it to be so. Still, that is a difference. | |
I like Chibi-Robo because it isn't about violence, its all about helping people and making them happy. The conflict of the game rarely centers around violence, and the amount included in the game is almost made to be saddening, heck the game even kind of says its not the minions' fault for attacking you, they were made to help Chibi-Robos, but were manipulated to attack them. The only reason to kill them is to get bolts, and even then you don't need that many. | |
but my fellow druges who doesnt love a bit of the old ultra violence? OT: I have to agree, games idea of mature is just more adolesent OTT violence | |
incomming three stooges kind of slap.( even when woodsey is the only one who should get it since he started slaping me)
shooting dead bodies until they explode is non 'ultra violent' while i can agree with him that it has taken a bad turn recently, i have to say that he himself cant escape using ultra violence in his games. | |
There's no slow-mo, and there ain't that much blood. And personally, the killcams have always been more "Oh, fuck...", not "FUCK YEAH!". And I distinctly remember using a mine in my last playthrough of DX to blow someone up into a couple of dozen pieces. (In my defence, Ms Navarre, you were being a twat.) Point is, all they're really showing is your actions. You want to be violent? Then you get a violent outcome. They don't really linger over the fact, they don't encourage it, but they show you what you've done. Now, I don't actually think there's much of a problem with the games we're playing in terms of violence, I do think there's a developing problem with how violence is used to advertise at us like we're a bunch of dipshits who'll get hard over people being fucked up out-of-context. (Like the crowds at E3.) | |
I can't say I approve of things like censorship, coddling or babying people about harsh realities, but I think there is something to be said about the excesses of violence in some games. For there to be blood and grievous bodily harm from combat in a game (Such as the latest Fallout games) isn't a problem. But when you look at games that practically roll around in it gleefully (like Splatterhouse or Mortal Kombat) it create a sense of unease at what the designers are expecting us to applaud. Hitman I have a bit more of a hard time criticizing if some of the ways you kill your targets are unpleasant; it doesn't come across as quite so needlessly gory and malevolent; you're often trying to take out a target to make it look like an accident. Doing something like, say, kicking a jack out from under a car so it falls on their head isn't going to be pretty, but it's going to keep suspicion off of you. All that said, I can see the need for there to be fewer games that rewards excessive, needless brutality. We could definitely do with a few more Bioshocks, Half-Lifes, and Fallouts and a few less Manunts, Splatterhouses, Mortal Kombats and Madworlds. | |
lol Nope. If he thought that Hitman's violence was "Too much" then he's clearly a fucking dinosaur to begin with, aping the oft heard "This new generation is too extreme" blatherings of someone who wishes to trap everyone else in the past. Ultra violence has just as much a place on the planet as your shitty Epic Mickey games, Warren. | |
I enjoy Ultra-violence (apparently capitalized these days.) whenever it is not taken seriously. Less Manhunt and more Madworld, if you get my reference. | |
Deus Ex let me blow a guy up by calling him a Liputan Machine. You could beat people to death with a riot stick. People expload into meaty chunks sometimes. | |
you might want to watch men who stare at goats. | |
I wanted to call the guy a loon, but I didn't have the balls to. You get kudos. | |
I don't know, there's nothing wrong with a bit of ultraviolence, I thought Splatterhouse was brilliantly over the top in every sense; but I wouldn't want to play it all the time. I think he's right in the sense that it's becoming far too ubiquitous in games now, but I still think people are idiots for getting upset over things like the Hitman trailer. Although I'm still working on the assumption that the developer's were telling the truth when they say it wasn't deliberately controversial. As another poster said, it's all about context. | |
I disagree partially. Sometimes I have a bad day, or my bipolar swings into a terrible depression mood sometimes. I feel like the Narrorator in Fight Club when he punches the bleached-white-hair dudes face off. So for those times, I think we should have one super violent game, where people can take their anger out in a non harmful manner. Other people have already said some violent video games stop them from doing real harm to someone or something. | |
I can understand what Mr. Spector is saying. But at the same time I grew up playing Serious Sam and Pain Killer. Ultra Violence should only be used in games that don't take themselves too seriously. Either that or use it very sparingly while keeping the atmosphere like the Metal Gear Solid Series does. This is one of the reasons why Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance (god they had to choose Revengeance as a word???) looks like crap to most people. Hideo Kojima knows that and so he isn't too involved with the project. Of course this is "Ultra Violence needs to stop" statement is coming from Warren Spector, and the first Dues Ex let you blow people up literally into smithereens. This is like if David Jaffe said that game designers should keep their opinions to themselves. | |
Funny, and here I was pretty certain sales have been going down since the golden age on. Except they have and you're just fooling yourself. Certainly things may be doing better now than say the eighties or nineties, I really don't care enough to look up the specifics, but without children the industry cannot survive, just like any other industry. Kids and teens are the most important audience, and excluding them is the absolute worst decision any Industry can make. If you are only willing to target your adult fans then how in the world is your industry going to expand other than through sheer coincidence? | |
I blame evolution; every creature that was born to dislike violence generally died to creatures that did. Since society tries to get rid of violence though, people look to get their fix from places which do not incorporate real harm, and I'm fairly ok with that. Not that I am all for massive amounts of violent games but I do find it quite hard to consider it a problem the gaming medium has to sort out. | |
Really, it´s not slow mo ? Then I suppose it ultimately depends on ones reaction to the killcams. And again, all I´m saying is that the level of violence and gratuitious violence in HR is higher than in the first DE. Not that it is particularly over-the-top or disgusting (my description of the killcams in the first post was at least in part hyperbole)
It´s getting a bit embarrassing at times, advertisment-wise, yes. | |
It's times like this where I'm glad Nintendo exists. They know exactly what's important and don't shun it. Anyway, Spector is right. I interpret it as that we need more variety in games other than just blowing people's heads off. Either we need to make violence so silly it can't be taken seriously (like Lollipop Chainsaw, Madworld, No More Heroes) or start toning it down and finding other mechanics to base games around. It's kinda led to a very monotone aesthetic and tone in so-called "AAA" games and it's getting old. | |
It's true. But most songs are not about wanton murder. Nor are most books. Most movies? Maybe if you don't count Bollywood stuff, which is more numerous but has less viewers worldwide. Games? Nine out of ten are about killing people, half of those will fetishize violence, and the rest will just treat it apathetically, without comment or context. I hope games like Far Cry 3 and The Line deliver on their premises, but I'm not holding my breath. | |
Very nicely said by Mr. Spector. This is one of the reasons the original Deus-Ex is still my Nr. 1 game because it gives you a choice about using violence or not and you get actual reward or remorse moments out of it. Today I can't heard this crappy "we make the franchise more mature/adult" anymore because it is a synonym for crappy games from the word go. A pity Spector isn't involved anymore in certain titles. Ideas like that are missing in a stalling and (quality wise) declining industry. | |
Just curious, have you ever played Shadow of the Colossus ? | |
That's a pretty tall equine Mr. Spector is sitting on top of. Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to play some Grand Theft Auto with my droogs to enjoy the ultra-violence. I hope that last sentence shows how ridiculous using the phrase "ultra-violence" is when you are expecting to be taken seriously. | |
I gotta agree here, the violence gets a bit too intense for my tastes. Probably best to ratchet down the couple notches but make sure we ratchet up the sex a couple notches (hey; we can move from adolescent sexuality to consenting adult sexuality. That's a plus right?) | |
I dont think he was responsible for that Deus Ex, he did the original and the its sequel. The violence in that did not make anyone uncomfortable, it was too hammy to do anything. I wouldnt say that the violence here is what he means by 'ultra-violence' since this is comparatively tame. I feel things are getting violent without reason other than to be violent. Look at the Mass effect series, the first one was a 12+ age rating in the UK (my country) and the following 2 were 15+. Having played all three I can only say the greater violence led to this rating, a good example would be that in the third one a headshot with most weapons causes the head to explode and blood to pour out of the corpse as it falls to the ground, such a sight wasnt present in the first game and I dont think it was in the second one. To me it just feels like they ramped up the violence because they wanted to sell the game on combat, which means gore and blood now apparently. You could say its realism, but its a science fiction setting so you cant exactly argue it has to be believable or realistically gritty for any story related reason. That is only one example, my worry is that if this trend keeps on going then gaming will be excluding younger audiences. Thats not fair and it wouldnt be good for gaming in general. Kids shouldnt be excluded from games needlessly, for the sake of violence which adds nothing to the game. The sad truth might be that violence is used in excess to direct attention away from other failings, such as unoriganality or simply lackluster design. | |
If there is something to be said for games, it's that very very few of them ever encourage the players to show restraint for any reason apart from maybe the threat of death. SWAT4 is a game where you will fail every single mission if you go in and shoot everything you see. It's one of the very few shooters that rewards restraint and planning on the part of the player, even if just a little and as far as I know, it's one of the only shooters where a low body count is always more ideal than a high one. I'm not a prude; I'm far too desensitized for that. | |
I dunno, I sorta agree. As long you put a lot of emphasis on the words "Ultra-violence". And even then, it depends. Not all violence is bad, not all extreme violence is bad. Oh, and if I see another reference to the "Rape" scene in the new Tomb Raider I am going to stab someone. | |
He's right--Spector, that is. We've taken, and accepted, this stupid, adolescent rendition of violence in the medium at complete face value. Games, for some reason, seem to still be infatuated with this idiocy and the producers' constant pumping of the same thing over and over again has, I feel, conditioned a large segment of gamers and gaming culture to understand the medium in those very terms, and it works as a self perpetuating loop where newer segments of the fanbase are taught to see this as the norm. They, with the intent of creating something fun and sellable [sic], have defacto ruled that violence = conflict most of the time, and that's just regrettable. Thankfully, the indie scene is finally taking off and, with it, so do games that require the player to do other stuff besides that, and where fucking shit up is not the only required pathway to achieving a successful resolution of conflicts, and this is way less boring, by far. Now, violence should not be taken out, but rather it should be kept alongside a bevvy of other options available for conflict resolution. This is not me arguing for less Gears, Halos, or Medals of Honor, but rather for the inclusion of different kinds of games alongside them. | |
Just for fun, the porn industry wants to argue that point with you. I feel like the problem with this is that violent games get the most media coverage. I think the issue is over bloated due to that single fact. You don't see Limbo or Fez making it on Fox news after all. | |
We have schlocky ulta-violence type movies, it doesn't detract from the "high art" type of movies. Consenting adults in America get to watch almost any type of entertainment they want, we can all thank the US constitution for that. He may not like it or find some of it distasteful but to say "it needs to stop"? Ridiculous. Sounds like he is getting old. | |
I don't know if anyone's mentioned this yet,(I only read the first page of comments) but does anyone else remember what they did in Alpha Protocol to make you reconsider killing? Because it made me really uncomfortable. The Orphans Created stat. It had a stat log where one of the stats was orphans created because you killed their parents. Apparently each enemy was assigned a number of children and when you committed a killing, their kids would be added to your orphan counter. I ended up playing the rest of the game as non-violent as possible. | |
Yeah, he's totally right. Violence in games should disappear. All games should be bland, boring Mickey-fucking-Mouse games. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off playing Max Payne 3 and Lollipop Chainsaw. | |
Yes, you don't want violent games at all... by the way, which is why you chose to work on Epic Mickey! :D | |
| Pages PREV 1 2 3 4 5 6 NEXT | |
I think he's overreacting. There's room for both R and G in the world. Horror movies have been ruthlessly butchering people for decades without inspiring the end of civilization.
From Clockwork Orange beating a woman to death with a giant ceramic dong to the glorified snuff film series that is Saw. Over the top violence? You bet. The end times are upon us? Not hardly. Spector is just getting old.