EVE Online Rolls Back Exploiters' Accounts

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EVE Online Rolls Back Exploiters' Accounts

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The moral of the story: Don't profit on a bug for two weeks before reporting it.

The market in EVE Online is basically simulated piracy. Manipulating the system for fun and profit is pretty much the whole point of the game, so it can hard to determine when players cross the line into exploiting the game's code. Recently, five players reported such an exploit to developer CCP, but only after they had been using it to gain massive amounts of "Loyalty Points" in the game. Today, CCP finally made the decision that even though the players reported the bug, the rewards they reaped were ill-gotten and have been removed from their accounts, but they were not banned from the game.

"The people who sought to benefit from this exploit will receive no gain from this system," read a post on EVE Online's official website. "Because the players made efforts to inform us about the issue their accounts will remain in good standing."

CCP accidentally introduced the exploit in the last update to EVE Online. Loyalty Points (LP) reward players for PvP, and the code calculates the number of LP based on the average value of the property destroyed. The exploit came from these players buying tons of ships that rarely are used and conspiring to blow each other's stuff up, thereby driving up the price and netting them a very large amount of LP. Incidentally, LP can be converted into ISK, the currency of EVE, which in turn can be converted into real world game time, meaning the exploit made them the equivalent of $175,000 US.

"Once we're done determining how much each person has benefitted we will remove the LP gained value in LP and items and return the ISK invested in the purchase of items to them," continued the official report. "This essentially will set each of them back to the original point at which they began this activity."

Even though this punishment is a mere slap on the wrist, I think it was a good decision on CCP's part to erase the gains made from the exploit, but not ban these players indefinitely. In a cutthroat game world like EVE Online, you can't blame these guys too much for trying.

Source: EVE Online blog

Permalink

No full set of Staranium Armor for me then.

As a player of EVE I can understand the desire to get an advantage over the other guy, lord only knows I would LOVE to be able to get a nice Navy issue ship for almost no effort or cost. But also being a player makes more than familar with what can happen if you mess with the EVE economy so I'm going to have to agree with CCP on this one. I don't even want to imagine if this exploit spread and suddenly all PVP is being done in faction ships fit with faction gear.

kajinking:
As a player of EVE I can understand the desire to get an advantage over the other guy, lord only knows I would LOVE to be able to get a nice Navy issue ship for almost no effort or cost. But also being a player makes more than familar with what can happen if you mess with the EVE economy so I'm going to have to agree with CCP on this one. I don't even want to imagine if this exploit spread and suddenly all PVP is being done in faction ships fit with faction gear.

I like how they weren't banned, so they can continue to look for less detectable ways to cheat.

That honestly seems like the best option really. Can't think of a better way to handle it.

Surprised the players figured out the exploit, but didn't think they'd get caught.

A bit of a long read, but for anyone who wants a first-hand account of what happened, here's the forum thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124145

I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

Trials are free.
From what I understand, the introduction and tutorials etc are far more helpful than they were when I first started.
I highly recommend at least giving it a shot.
I'm quite interested in 514 myself, but it's a Ps3 exclusive. I can't really justify buying a console for a single game. If it was PC I'd be all over it.

Well there you go, that is the last time anyone reports bugs to the dev if they can make money on it. Next time make as much money as you can, don't say a word. Cash out, and run.

thisbymaster:
Well there you go, that is the last time anyone reports bugs to the dev if they can make money on it. Next time make as much money as you can, don't say a word. Cash out, and run.

On one hand I agree with the way CCP handled this. On the other hand ^ this ^ right here.

Would CCP have actually found out who was benefiting from this bug had they caught it themselves?

this game sounds awful, full of greedy selfish trolls. *le sigh*

Evil Smurf:
this game sounds awful, full of greedy selfish trolls. *le sigh*

It's not as bad as people think it is. Sure, they are plenty of psychos and malcontents, but the game honestly is kinda endearing for it. What you have in Eve is a MMO world where, unless it is an exploit like what these people did or is otherwise hacking the game, anything goes. It is, in effect, exactly what a sci-fi space game world ought to be: a place with a great amount of freedom, which can lead to people doing either great or terrible things. It's just that the evil things that people do tend to get covered more often by news outlets, just like in the real world.

Annnd... if anyone cares, I can toss out 21-day trials for this game, which is a week longer than what you would get if you just went to their site directly. :o

Tamrin:

thisbymaster:
Well there you go, that is the last time anyone reports bugs to the dev if they can make money on it. Next time make as much money as you can, don't say a word. Cash out, and run.

On one hand I agree with the way CCP handled this. On the other hand ^ this ^ right here.

Would CCP have actually found out who was benefiting from this bug had they caught it themselves?

It would have taken them longer to find, but I doubt that CCP would be so horribly inept that they would never notice that a group of people somehow made 100 times the amount of money they would normally have made in a day.

Pandalisk:
I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

I know of a few solid corps that will take new players if you're interested. EVE-Uni and Red V Blue come to mind.

OT: $175,000? That's 50 trillion isk if my maths are correct. Alliance wallets don't have that much money, so I think that may be a bit off...

But I think it's a good thing CCP takes such a hard line stance on cheaters. Like when about a year and a half ago when the market was saturated with minerals, miners and manufacturers couldn't turn a profit, and all the power ended up in the hands of the largest alliances with the power to mass produce, which was a big factor in creating the huge "0.0 blocs" we see today. It was a mess, but fortunately things are slowly recovering now.

Pandalisk:
I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

The game, at its heart, is all pvp. the market is pvp. The ships are pvp. Sure you can devote your entire gaming experience to PVE, but it's a pvp game at the core. It sounds cut throat and unrelenting because by and large, people don't understand their situation, or try to understand the situation. If all you ever do in a day is mine, you're not going to know what a blinking yellow box means vs a blinking red box.

It's worth giving a shot. It's a good game. But it doesn't hold your hand, and you usually have more fun finding your own fun. It's a game unlike any other I've played. It has its problems, but what game doesn't.

Just... don't do what Yahtzee did. He ignored the social side of the game when he first started playing, and therefore didn't find anything to do. A terrible mistake.

thisbymaster:
Well there you go, that is the last time anyone reports bugs to the dev if they can make money on it. Next time make as much money as you can, don't say a word. Cash out, and run.

They were already onto the scent. It was a matter of time, really.

renegade7:

Pandalisk:
I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

I know of a few solid corps that will take new players if you're interested. EVE-Uni and Red V Blue come to mind.

Pandalisk:
I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

I will second Eve-Uni, I am an E-Uni graduate and they helped me a great deal when I got into the game. They also have a lot of fun lotteries that can get you some expensive ships, and they reimburse a large number of your skill training books.

Evil Smurf:
this game sounds awful, full of greedy selfish trolls. *le sigh*

Anything is awful if you just look at crappy news headlines. most of the people are friendly fun people, and the game has amazing mechanics you wont find anywhere else.

All this sounds very, very fun but because I cannot actually control the ship directly I have no interest in it. Mechwarrior: Online on the other hand has me salivating.

kajinking:
As a player of EVE I can understand the desire to get an advantage over the other guy, lord only knows I would LOVE to be able to get a nice Navy issue ship for almost no effort or cost. But also being a player makes more than familar with what can happen if you mess with the EVE economy so I'm going to have to agree with CCP on this one. I don't even want to imagine if this exploit spread and suddenly all PVP is being done in faction ships fit with faction gear.

I only agree with you in part. Faction issue ships are powerful, yes, but they are also inordinantly expensive. Sure, a Navy Raven has more firepower than the standard model by a fair margin but not enough to justify a fitted cost ten times that of the base hull. The extreme cost of such vessels ensures they are rarely used in combat and even then largely because someone forced such a player's hand.

And, lets be honest - does one need to attach a billion isk price tag to a ship that offers a mere 25% more firepower? My chimera only cost marginally more than my navy raven. While we're at it, my Cerberus cost more than a standard issue Rokh with full fitting and rigs. My harpy hull cost more than any four cruisers I ever fielded in PVP before I put gear on the damn thing. Such moves ensure that only the wealthiest or the stupidest field such vessels. Even at an income sufficient to purchase and field a carrier the idea of losing my comparatively cheap HAC was enough to ensure I was never willing to try slugging it out with anyone should things turn grim.

I suppose that my point is simply that Eve is a game that could stand to offer less risk. Fielding T1 ships of appropriate size is sufficiently risky that most players avoid PvP at any cost. And that's a terrible shame considering PvP is the best part of the game.

Evil Smurf:
this game sounds awful, full of greedy selfish trolls. *le sigh*

Eve's singular rule has always been that you never fly what you can't afford to lose. LP give access to some powerful tools. A navy issue missile system is vastly superior in many circumstances over the basic model yet it's market value is easily ten times greater. Considering the difference in DPS in general cases is a mere 12% or so and further considering insurance does not cover such parts means you generally only see such things in PvE.

To put it another way, of all the ships I lost in three years of playing - several dozen at least, the actual loss to my wallet as a player should I lose my Navy Raven is greater than all those other ships combined by a fair margin. That includes at least a dozen frigates, cruisers and five battlecruisers in addition to several covert ops ships and two assault ships. The cost associated with purchasing a Navy Raven (or any navy issue battleship really) is enough that, when I played, it would take me thirty hours of play to replace in isk. Longer if I went the cheap route and used LP.

Thus, Eve isn't really about greed. It's risk management. My Navy Raven has never left high security space. My Carrier has only been flown once without other carriers in escourt. By contrast, I'll take a battlecruiser anywhere without worry or an assault ship because such things are readily replaced. Eve has generally been friendly to endavors that allow enterprising players to reduce risk.

Perhaps the best example of this occurred several years ago when a great many types of ships could be outfitted such that they could fly at speeds making them nearly invulnerable to return fire. While such ships were undergunned and ultimately flimsy if you could consistently lay damage on them, the enormous speed meant that short of catastrophic error on their part, a player using such a ship could engage in what was normally a high risk activity (pvp in space occupied by the enemy) at no real risk to themselves.

Some reduction in risk would be useful to the game. Many players avoid PvP because of the cost associated with it. Others like myself refuse to take the best toys out to play because the risk (and when I say risk I mean the real human hours it would take to replace) is too great. It is such that entire classes of ships, easily dozens of vessel types are never seen intentionally engaging in combat. Heavy assault ships (most of them), electronic warfare ships (most of them), black ops ships, faction ships above the weight of cruiser - none of these are seen in pvp with regularity.

Of course, to play devil's advocate, the current system helps ensure a level of fairness in pvp. The veteran player will have an advantage in player skill and character ability but at least they tend to play with the same set of toys as the relative noob.

They probably blew all that money trying to buy every in their Corp. $70 monocles.

Tamrin:

thisbymaster:
Well there you go, that is the last time anyone reports bugs to the dev if they can make money on it. Next time make as much money as you can, don't say a word. Cash out, and run.

On one hand I agree with the way CCP handled this. On the other hand ^ this ^ right here.

Would CCP have actually found out who was benefiting from this bug had they caught it themselves?

OFC they would. its called logs.

This is sort of the ways way out. Technically, the people using the system didnt break any rules, because they were working within game mechanics and it wasnt tiher fault they were broken. On the other hand, morally they were exploiting a weakness. So a rollback is quit a good choice, considering how much leverage the gamers have over CCP.

Saulkar:
All this sounds very, very fun but because I cannot actually control the ship directly I have no interest in it. Mechwarrior: Online on the other hand has me salivating.

I agree MWO looks like pure awesome, woo being a legendary founder!

But what are you talking about not being able to control your ship? You tell it where to go, you fit it however you want, and you tell it whatever you want to kill. What more control do you want?

FelixG:
What more control do you want?

A solid copy and paste of my response everybody who ever challenged me on that topic.

I cannot take my Saitek X52 - Keyboard combo and directly assign it to control every last pitch, yaw, bank, maneuver, thruster, weapon, or ability of my ship. I don't want to click the damn thing around, "I WANT TO PILOT THE DAMN THING"! Since this is not the case I am not interested.

----------------------------------------------------------
(A frustrated advertisement)
----------------------------------------------------------
I have received dozens of counter responses like:
"That is not the point of the game": I know, that is why I do not like it.
"You have narrow tastes": My tastes are different.
"There is so much more to the game": Yes there is but little of it entertains me.
"The server could not take that much input in largescale battles": Not sure if true but still does not make me appreciate it any more so.
"You control the pilot who is trained to pilot the craft": I know, that is why I do not like it.

I'll wait for a modern, quality space simulator.

CAPTCHA: "pipe down" - Shutup!

<--- was always a case for selling everything truly good i get and make up for the difference in power by using my second acc's logitistic ship to make up my mains wekaness *lol* ^^

Speaking as an EVE player and as a dedicated gamer (obviously) I find CCP's lack of discipline deplorable. Exploiters need to be banned, period, not just have their accounts rolled back.

Saulkar:

FelixG:
What more control do you want?

A solid copy and paste of my response everybody who ever challenged me on that topic.

I cannot take my Saitek X52 - Keyboard combo and directly assign it to control every last pitch, yaw, bank, maneuver, thruster, weapon, or ability of my ship. I don't want to click the damn thing around, "I WANT TO PILOT THE DAMN THING"! Since this is not the case I am not interested.

----------------------------------------------------------
(A frustrated advertisement)
----------------------------------------------------------
I have received dozens of counter responses like:
"That is not the point of the game": I know, that is why I do not like it.
"You have narrow tastes": My tastes are different.
"There is so much more to the game": Yes there is but little of it entertains me.
"The server could not take that much input in largescale battles": Not sure if true but still does not make me appreciate it any more so.
"You control the pilot who is trained to pilot the craft": I know, that is why I do not like it.

I'll wait for a modern, quality space simulator.

CAPTCHA: "pipe down" - Shutup!

Black Prophecy? Or Dark Prophecy... I can't remember which it is. Basically X-Wing online, with all the modularship design stuff that people typically ask for. I don't know what happened to it, but space sims in general have died out as a genre. A great shame. I do know when I played it I lost interest fairly rapidly. Not a whole lot of depth to the game play when all is said and done.

In any case, the basic operation of a ship in Eve is as you say, being captain rather than pilot, but if you're flying something with... delicate tracking capabilities on the guns, you'll be doing the minor course corrections yourself. That's what tends to separate to good pilots from the best. Try it and fly Minmatar ships, and stick to your guns over missiles and drones.

Just try it once really. I used to be the same as you, but I've come to love the Eve way of doing it. Makes the game play much more thought provoking than cross hair tracing. And I'll be honest... I think the joy toy game play would actually detract from the character of the universe. Space battles look cooler when you can see the awesome stuff your ship is doing.

But each to their own. Check out Black/Dark Prophecy.

That seems to me like a really strange honor system. The entire game (which I don't play anymore, btw) is comprised of kill or be killed, eat or be eaten game play mechanics. They introduce a system where you earn for blowing up another players stuff. So they blow up each others stuff. So, what, they are now implementing a rule that you can only kill people who are not your friends and you have to prove that they aren't?

Look, I'm not saying it isn't a blatant exploit, it's just weird to give free reign to the community letting them be dicks to each other where there has been billions and trillions of ISK scams that players have played on each other where CCP was mum about the whole thing and suddenly there is a need to enforce morality?

There has to be a component that affects CCP somehow that I missed, otherwise this would be a non-issue.

They should have so been banned. Yeah, they reported the bug, but only after they made sure they benefited from it. It's like they were trying to use the bug to get an edge on everyone and then take that advantage away from anyone else who wanted to use it.

Actually, considering they were Goonsquad, yes, yes you can blame them for trying, because their sole purpose is to try and ruin any game they're in.

Skratt:
That seems to me like a really strange honor system. The entire game (which I don't play anymore, btw) is comprised of kill or be killed, eat or be eaten game play mechanics. They introduce a system where you earn for blowing up another players stuff. So they blow up each others stuff. So, what, they are now implementing a rule that you can only kill people who are not your friends and you have to prove that they aren't?

Look, I'm not saying it isn't a blatant exploit, it's just weird to give free reign to the community letting them be dicks to each other where there has been billions and trillions of ISK scams that players have played on each other where CCP was mum about the whole thing and suddenly there is a need to enforce morality?

There has to be a component that affects CCP somehow that I missed, otherwise this would be a non-issue.

The part you missed was how exactly the exploit worked.

There was a system where you would get bonus points based on the average value of the stuff you killed.

"Average value" being the key phrase here.

As detailed in the devblog on the topic, the exploit was to use things that had extremely low traded volume (one or two units a day, for example). You sell them to yourself (or friends, or whatever) at a massive cost, thereby increasing that average by a large amount.

You then get your friend to kill you and he gets over-rewarded because the system thought that item X was worth on average Y when it is normally worth Z. In this case, Y >> Z

They weren't enforcing morality. They were correcting a flawed system, and these people pointed out the flaws. Unfortunately, they pointed out the flaws after making an insane amount of ISK by exploiting it, which is the cause of the rollback.

Eclectic Dreck:

Evil Smurf:
this game sounds awful, full of greedy selfish trolls. *le sigh*

Eve's singular rule has always been that you never fly what you can't afford to lose. LP give access to some powerful tools. A navy issue missile system is vastly superior in many circumstances over the basic model yet it's market value is easily ten times greater. Considering the difference in DPS in general cases is a mere 12% or so and further considering insurance does not cover such parts means you generally only see such things in PvE.

To put it another way, of all the ships I lost in three years of playing - several dozen at least, the actual loss to my wallet as a player should I lose my Navy Raven is greater than all those other ships combined by a fair margin. That includes at least a dozen frigates, cruisers and five battlecruisers in addition to several covert ops ships and two assault ships. The cost associated with purchasing a Navy Raven (or any navy issue battleship really) is enough that, when I played, it would take me thirty hours of play to replace in isk. Longer if I went the cheap route and used LP.

Thus, Eve isn't really about greed. It's risk management. My Navy Raven has never left high security space. My Carrier has only been flown once without other carriers in escourt. By contrast, I'll take a battlecruiser anywhere without worry or an assault ship because such things are readily replaced. Eve has generally been friendly to endavors that allow enterprising players to reduce risk.

Perhaps the best example of this occurred several years ago when a great many types of ships could be outfitted such that they could fly at speeds making them nearly invulnerable to return fire. While such ships were undergunned and ultimately flimsy if you could consistently lay damage on them, the enormous speed meant that short of catastrophic error on their part, a player using such a ship could engage in what was normally a high risk activity (pvp in space occupied by the enemy) at no real risk to themselves.

Some reduction in risk would be useful to the game. Many players avoid PvP because of the cost associated with it. Others like myself refuse to take the best toys out to play because the risk (and when I say risk I mean the real human hours it would take to replace) is too great. It is such that entire classes of ships, easily dozens of vessel types are never seen intentionally engaging in combat. Heavy assault ships (most of them), electronic warfare ships (most of them), black ops ships, faction ships above the weight of cruiser - none of these are seen in pvp with regularity.

Of course, to play devil's advocate, the current system helps ensure a level of fairness in pvp. The veteran player will have an advantage in player skill and character ability but at least they tend to play with the same set of toys as the relative noob.

I think your perception of what "many players" do and think is skewed.

It all comes from how you perceive ISK I think. You think that ISK is hard to make.

It isn't.

Me and ten of my closest internet friends can hang out in our wormhole, run some escalations for about 3 hours, and make half a billion isk apiece.

At nearly no risk.

We bring well fitted ships with non-retarded pilots to fly them. The logistics pilots know how to be logistics pilots; the webbing loki knows how to fly a webbing loki, the dreadnaught pilots know how to shoot things that don't move, and the battleship pilots know how to hit F1 on descending tag numbers.

We have one person throw out a scan probe to check the number of signatures in the system. If that increases, we know there might be a wormhole in and we find it and sit on it. We have eyes on every entrance to our system. Unless you have been there the whole time, cloaked up and with no probes, you can't surprise us.

Nearly no risk.

It seems that you run level 4 missions in a Navy Raven, and that's why you think ISK is hard to make.

Missions suck for making ISK. They are slow and boring and suck. Find a wormhole corporation who actually knows what they are doing.

It's not that there is no risk in flying expensive things in PVP. It's that the risk is worth it, to us at least. If it isn't to you, that is entire up to you and your sensibilities. Try making more ISK.

The game doesn't need less risk. Hell, there's an insurance system for risk minimization.

Don't fly what you cannot afford to use. Just increase what you can afford.

Although seriously don't use a Navy Raven for PVP, you'll get immediately killed. Because most CNR's are failfit in PVP, and funny killmails are funny.

Pandalisk:
I've always wanted to try out EVE but every news post about it makes me think more and more that i'm far too naive and innocent for it. Maybe that Dust 514(?) is more easy on me.

I played the game for a little over a month, and it is ruthless.

One day I had finally gotten to the point where I had the skills learned and the ISK to buy a shiny new cruiser. After I got said cruiser and messed around with it in mid-level security space and got the hang of using it and my new weapons I had also got for it, I just decided to take a short trip in to low-security space just to see what it was like. I was there for all of three minutes when another player and his friend ambushed me, destroyed my ship, and tractored my life pod.

He told me that he would let my life pod go and let me live if I gave them 50 million ISK. I of course didn't have it, and I told him I only had 2 million, because I had just bought the ship he just blew up.

So he blasted my pod and killed me. Luckily, I had that new ship at least partially insured and I had invested in a clone that was good enough that I didn't lose any of the skill knowledge I had spent those months learning(and you will spend months learning things, some single skills take an entire month to train).

Still, I doubt that even if I had paid those guys 50 million ISK, that they would have not blown up my life pod anyway.

versoth:

I think your perception of what "many players" do and think is skewed.

My perception is almost certainly skewed because it is dated. I played from 2005 - 2008 and then again in 2010 :).

It all comes from how you perceive ISK I think. You think that ISK is hard to make.

versoth:

Me and ten of my closest internet friends can hang out in our wormhole, run some escalations for about 3 hours, and make half a billion isk apiece.

I never considered most acts where I made isk to be risky. I considered them incredibly tedious. Running level 4's would net me perhaps 30 million isk/hour. Ratting in 0.0 could net perhaps 80 million an hour after long prep in an unoccupied system. Mining was highly variable depending upon location and support for the operation but even in an exhumer I'd rarely break 20 million isk/hour if working alone or 40 million if working with corporation members.

If it is as easy to make a half billion isk as you say, then all of my previous ranting about risk can be rethought. At the time I purchased my navy raven, it cost me just shy of 1 billion isk for the hull, a cerberus cost about 130 million isk, and a Rokh was about 110. Battleships and smaller were relatively expendable, but anything T2 above cruiser weight was not and navy ships above cruiser weight were staggeringly expensive.

The time required to make isk is what eventually made me stop playing the game. None of those activities were fun. Hell, I took up mining as a money making system because I could join a mining op and barely pay attention. The idea of having to replicate dozens of hours of tedium to replace a ship was sufficient to ensure I rarely flew things in combat that cost more than about 50 million isk to replace after insurance.

David Nary:
A bit of a long read, but for anyone who wants a first-hand account of what happened, here's the forum thread.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=124145

Thank you, that's the most entertaining thing i've read in a while.

beniki:

Saulkar:

FelixG:
What more control do you want?

A solid copy and paste of my response everybody who ever challenged me on that topic.

I cannot take my Saitek X52 - Keyboard combo and directly assign it to control every last pitch, yaw, bank, maneuver, thruster, weapon, or ability of my ship. I don't want to click the damn thing around, "I WANT TO PILOT THE DAMN THING"! Since this is not the case I am not interested.

----------------------------------------------------------
(A frustrated advertisement)
----------------------------------------------------------
I have received dozens of counter responses like:
"That is not the point of the game": I know, that is why I do not like it.
"You have narrow tastes": My tastes are different.
"There is so much more to the game": Yes there is but little of it entertains me.
"The server could not take that much input in largescale battles": Not sure if true but still does not make me appreciate it any more so.
"You control the pilot who is trained to pilot the craft": I know, that is why I do not like it.

I'll wait for a modern, quality space simulator.

CAPTCHA: "pipe down" - Shutup!

Black Prophecy? Or Dark Prophecy... I can't remember which it is. Basically X-Wing online, with all the modularship design stuff that people typically ask for. I don't know what happened to it, but space sims in general have died out as a genre. A great shame. I do know when I played it I lost interest fairly rapidly. Not a whole lot of depth to the game play when all is said and done.

In any case, the basic operation of a ship in Eve is as you say, being captain rather than pilot, but if you're flying something with... delicate tracking capabilities on the guns, you'll be doing the minor course corrections yourself. That's what tends to separate to good pilots from the best. Try it and fly Minmatar ships, and stick to your guns over missiles and drones.

Just try it once really. I used to be the same as you, but I've come to love the Eve way of doing it. Makes the game play much more thought provoking than cross hair tracing. And I'll be honest... I think the joy toy game play would actually detract from the character of the universe. Space battles look cooler when you can see the awesome stuff your ship is doing.

But each to their own. Check out Black/Dark Prophecy.

I will do that.

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