Blizzard Admits Diablo III End-Game Failure

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Its good to see them recognize and admit the huge blunder that they made with Diablo 3.
I think they were blinded by the games own pre-release hype and believed fans will just eat it like cake and never question its contents.

I myself couldnt even reach level 60 thats how fast i got bored of the game. Literraly in few days.

I played a hack`n`slash for the PS Vita and it was better than Diablo even though an obvious rip off. So there you have it . . . . blizzard`s first real black mark.

Korten12:

Zeriah:
Having never played D2 and haven't played D3 it doesn't matter to me, but I am curious about what 'end game' means in these types of dungeon crawlers? What does D2 have that D3 doesn't? I thought the 'end game' in these things was just repeatably grinding the high level dungeons over and over for RNG-stat loot, so it will take a really long time to get the perfect gear, hence the long play time. Both games have this as far as I'm aware.

So what's different with D2 apart from the auction house?

As far as I know and heard at least, Diablo 2 didn't have end game either. :P

what im garnering from this is that its cool to hate on D3, just like how it is with apple and COD. if there are no problems except from some inconvienences, why are people bitching?

I wonder what made D2 last so long....... oh wait user generated content in other words Mods!!!!!

Kungfu_Teddybear:

SpiderJerusalem:
Here's a thought, how about finally making a patch that allows players to game WITHOUT BEING ONLINE ALL THE TIME?! I have no interest in making a diablo account, a battle.net account and I have no interest in having the game lag and be tied to the whims of my (relatively poor) internet connection.

Hence, no sale. Do something Blizzard. It's not your end game that's broken. It's your GAME.

The game is broken because your internet connection sucks?

OT: That's fine by me, I stopped playing after I completed the game on Normal and have only just gone back to it and I'm still playing through Nightmare, so I still have plenty of stuff to do.

The game is broken because it requires an internet connection for someone to play single player. I don't buy the argument that Diablo is primarily a multi player experience, as I've only played it single player. Ditto for pretty much all of my friends. Given that some people don't want to play this game with others, requiring a connection even for playing solo is adding a point of failure that is extraneous to the function of the game. Thus, the game is broken if anything keeps a solo gamer from playing.

OT - I can't believe they really didn't expect people to be reaching the end game by this point. Hasn't their experience with WoW taught them that there are plenty of hardcore gamers out there who blow through levels like kleenex. I would have expected to need endgame content by the end of the third day after release.

Royas:

Kungfu_Teddybear:

SpiderJerusalem:
Here's a thought, how about finally making a patch that allows players to game WITHOUT BEING ONLINE ALL THE TIME?! I have no interest in making a diablo account, a battle.net account and I have no interest in having the game lag and be tied to the whims of my (relatively poor) internet connection.

Hence, no sale. Do something Blizzard. It's not your end game that's broken. It's your GAME.

The game is broken because your internet connection sucks?

OT: That's fine by me, I stopped playing after I completed the game on Normal and have only just gone back to it and I'm still playing through Nightmare, so I still have plenty of stuff to do.

The game is broken because it requires an internet connection for someone to play single player. I don't buy the argument that Diablo is primarily a multi player experience, as I've only played it single player. Ditto for pretty much all of my friends. Given that some people don't want to play this game with others, requiring a connection even for playing solo is adding a point of failure that is extraneous to the function of the game. Thus, the game is broken if anything keeps a solo gamer from playing.

Whether you buy the argument that it's a multiplayer experience because you have only played it on your own is irrelevant, because it did in fact originally start out as an MMO and there will plenty of people that play it multi-player. Requiring an always on internet connection does not break the game, if it did, the majority of players would be experiencing problems, and if someone doesn't want to play it because they don't want to be online all the time that does not make the game broken.

People need to stop overreacting to the always online requirement and people also need to stop using the word 'broken' to describe Diablo III because the game is by no means broken. Have a go at Blizzards stupid decisions until your hearts content, don't have a go at what is a perfectly functional game.

I find in unbelievable that Blizzard would release a game, after YEARS of development, and not put in the final levels, because they thought, "they wouldn't be needed"??

It's amazing how ridiculous things have become..

Wait a minute... wasn't the end game of Diablo always the same thing? Look for gear. Hell... isn't that the same end game for all hack and slash dungeon romps?

SpiderJerusalem:

MetallicaRulez0:

SpiderJerusalem:
Here's a thought, how about finally making a patch that allows players to game WITHOUT BEING ONLINE ALL THE TIME?! I have no interest in making a diablo account, a battle.net account and I have no interest in having the game lag and be tied to the whims of my (relatively poor) internet connection.

Hence, no sale. Do something Blizzard. It's not your end game that's broken. It's your GAME.

Can people PLEASE stop crying about this? The game runs off of Blizzard's servers. Everything from damage numbers to creature spawns and map generation is run off their server. They CAN'T make an offline mode at this point. That ship has sailed. Get over it.

Wrong. It's already been cracked and runs perfectly fine off-line. Please, do continue buying into the lies that Blizzard keeps telling you.

No it hasn't. Any "cracks" I've seen are halfhearted, shitty versions of the game at best with the SOLE benefit that you don't need to be online. Everything else is worse.

Piflik:

Kungfu_Teddybear:

The game isn't bad because of the AH though. Yeah, sure, it's the reason Blizzard are implementing all these dumb security measures, but it's not making the game bad. The AH has nothing to do with how fun the game is. And as for people struggling to log in because of bad internet connections, that's not exactly Blizzards fault. I think people are just getting far too worked up about the always online connection and the AH. Raging over nothing really.

The game is bad EXACTLY because of the AH. Hunting for items is fun, buying them not so much. And the item hunt is ALL there is. This alone might not be that bad, had Blizzard not balanced the game solely around the AH. The drops are ridiculus. I played the game for 100h, with 4 characters on 4 difficulty levels, and I had exactly 1 single unique drop. Once I reached Nightmare, it was nigh impossible to progress, without getting stuff from the AH. The items I found were simply too bad. I know that they wanted to make the AH work and so they needed the players to need tge AH, but by doing that, they sucked the fun right out if the game. They didn't really sell a game with an AH supplement, they sold an AH with a game supplement.

Wrong. The problem is that they DIDN'T balance the game around having an AH. If you read anything, they didn't expect the AH to take off and dominate the game nearly like it has.

Anyway, I'm still playing Diablo 3. Game is great. Fuck the haters.

As much as I hate siding with the diablo-bashers (who havent even played the game, yet cant shut up about how much it sucks and how blizz are sellouts and RAAAAAAGEEEEE), blizz really failed on this point. Glad they acknowledge it, but it doesnt change the fact that once inferno is cleared (which was hard, but not "dark souls"-hard), theres no challenges left.

Blizz wanted elite groups to be "the real endgame", but most elite groups require little to no tactic, and is just about kiting around while waiting for CDs. The ghom buff was a nice challenge (for those who dont know, they made a boss that was a cakewalk harder than the last boss, becoming somewhat of a super boss), but a failed design considering people who hadnt already beaten inferno got stuck on him.

The game was great, best thing Ive played in ages, but seeing how they EASILY could have added some endgame (hard-mode bosses, pvp, challenges like the timed dungeon) its feels like Ive finished the game without seeing half of it.

Ultimately, blizz shot themselves in the leg with this. Adding endgame content wouldve kept players longer and given em more money from the RMAH.

ruthaford_jive:
Wait a minute... wasn't the end game of Diablo always the same thing? Look for gear. Hell... isn't that the same end game for all hack and slash dungeon romps?

Agree, but the gear must be used for something. No pvp to brag and show off in, no INSANELY hard bosses you can work towards clearing (yes, inferno bosses are hard, but Ive played a lot harder in other games). All gear even looks the same at max lvl (2 different looks), so its not even about creating a "cool" character.

Awesome game, but couldve been the best game to date if they had added some endgame stuff.

bullet_sandw1ch:

Korten12:

Zeriah:
Having never played D2 and haven't played D3 it doesn't matter to me, but I am curious about what 'end game' means in these types of dungeon crawlers? What does D2 have that D3 doesn't? I thought the 'end game' in these things was just repeatably grinding the high level dungeons over and over for RNG-stat loot, so it will take a really long time to get the perfect gear, hence the long play time. Both games have this as far as I'm aware.

So what's different with D2 apart from the auction house?

As far as I know and heard at least, Diablo 2 didn't have end game either. :P

what im garnering from this is that its cool to hate on D3, just like how it is with apple and COD. if there are no problems except from some inconvienences, why are people bitching?

Most haters have barely touched the game, and have just read about always online DRM and RMAH. For some reason, theses things infuriate em more than higher taxes. Im baffled myself.

EDIT: A fun thing to point out is how everyone hates D3 for server downtime and lag, yet got nothing bad to say about games like skyrim and dark souls which got game-breaking bugs and random framerate drops. Skyrim and dark souls are awesome ofc, but nobody calls out their flaws in the same way as haters feast on D3's issues.

DanielBrown:
Grim Dawn should be out in a year. Never see any mention of it though. People always bring up Torchlight 2, but never Grim Dawn!
Looks like the proper D3 at least, and it's made by Crate(the guys that did the awesome Titan Quest game). Got all my hype redirected to that game for now.

I normally don't pre-order games, just on principle (who knows if something's going to suck before it comes out?), but TQ was so much fun and they've been so good keeping up with both the TQ and GD community and letting people know what's been going on with the development process and learning from people what did and didn't work in their previous game that should be kept/changed/improved that I've owned my copy since the beginning of 2010.

They seem to be fixing just about all the little things about TQ that bugged me, adding a bunch of cool new stuff, and doing everything right that D3 did wrong, so I'm still excited. Their multiclass system that's coming back from TQ is my favorite skill system from any ARPG ever, because there's always some new and ridiculous combination to try out whenever you think you've run out of things to do, and the lack of DRM and full support for mods (xMax in TQ was glorious, and that's just barely scratching the surface) is always nice.

Coreless:
My question is, what kind of endgame is even really considered an "endgame" for ARPGs? Endless dungeons? PvP? The only games of this type that I have played recently are Torchlight and Diablo 3 so I'm not exactly sure what an endgame would even entail with this genre. What did Diablo 2 do that kept people around for like a decade? and was it even an endgame or did people just play the game over and over with different characters?

Well, Torchlight had that bonus 100 floors dungeon after you finished the main game. iirc they got progressively harder as you went, but I'm not sure how hard they actually got as I didn't really bother too much with it.

Blizzard's fans kinda reminds me of Sonic's fans. Whatever they do, they just can't please anyone anymore.

And Blizzard itself kinda reminds me of Sonic Team. Except with less shitty games that actually sells in the millions.

Well I still congratulate Blizzard for making a pretty decent spin-off, but now I want the proper sequel.

Ah well. Torchlight 2 is around the corner.

SupahGamuh:
Blizzard's fans kinda reminds me of Sonic's fans. Whatever they do, they just can't please anyone anymore.

And Blizzard itself kinda reminds me of Sonic Team. Except with less shitty games that actually sells in the millions.

Your kidding, right? If any thing, the fans are too easy to please, buying the game just because it has the logo on the box. It's the bloody Blizzard fans defending all these bullshit policy's. Hell, if you actually read through these threads, you'll notice heaps of people saying how much they enjoyed the game. Of course, this thread is more focused on the mistakes.

The new Blizzard team is like the new Sonic team in that they make really obvious flaws, and for some reason they both have really shit writing too.

Haakong:

Most haters have barely touched the game, and have just read about always online DRM and RMAH. For some reason, theses things infuriate em more than higher taxes. Im baffled myself.

Maybe, and this is a crazy notion, but maybe we who haven't played Diablo 3 and cannot shut up about how angry we are about always online DRM (and to a lesser extent RMAH) are actually fans that LOVED the first 2 Diablo-games and have, just like you, been looking forward to Diablo 3 for a very long time. Maybe we aren't just all "haters" who hate on Blizzard just because it's cool. Maybe we are/were actually very big fans of Blizzard and maybe, just maybe, the reason we are all so upset is because we ALSO want to play Diablo 3, but not the Diablo 3 that Blizzard has made (also, I dont really like higher taxes but I wouldn't start complaining about it on a video game-forum).

I was a HUGE Blizzard-fan. I played Warcraft 1-3, Starcraft 1-2 and Diablo 1-2 like crazy, but I will NOT condone the kind of anti-consumerism that Blizzard has started doing, but even more than that: I dont want to play online!!

I dont care that always online-drm is supposed to give me some sort of improved experience. I dont care that it is supposed to hinder duping/hacking (which obviously it doesn't). I dont care that people think that playing online is the "correct way" of playing Diablo. I never ever ever played Diablo 1 and 2 online and I am convinced that I was far from alone in this. For me the whole point of Diablo was to feel utterly alone and exposed in the dark catacombs fighting off the forces of hell by myself. I was supposed to be a brave warrior and the last hope. Not one of an army of adventurers that has some sort of race to see who can kill Diablo the fastest/most times. That is how I, and many others, liked to play the game and nothing would have hindered Blizzard from creating an offline-mode for Diablo 3 as well. Also, I absolutely LOATHE lagging and will never buy a game that lags in singelplayer. If hacking/duping will happen anyway at least let me play the game in singelplayer offline.

But Blizzard doesn't care about me. A player like me, who cares more about the story than stats or leveling or loot (yes I used to like the stories in Blizzard-games, they were interesting and often well made although nothing revolutionary), a player like me who only plays singelplayer, I dont generate enough money for Blizzard. I just buy the game and play it, and that is just not the kind of player that Blizzard cares for anymore.

And if you are one of the Blizzard-apologists who is angry that "we" wont shut up about the lack of offline-play and that we should just go and play some other game, just remember that the reason that we wont shut up about it is that we dont WANT to play some other game. We WANTED to play Diablo 3, we had waited for many years to play Diablo 3, but we wanted to play it on our terms.

Coreless:
My question is, what kind of endgame is even really considered an "endgame" for ARPGs? Endless dungeons? PvP? The only games of this type that I have played recently are Torchlight and Diablo 3 so I'm not exactly sure what an endgame would even entail with this genre. What did Diablo 2 do that kept people around for like a decade? and was it even an endgame or did people just play the game over and over with different characters?

User-generated content.

Haakong:

ruthaford_jive:
Wait a minute... wasn't the end game of Diablo always the same thing? Look for gear. Hell... isn't that the same end game for all hack and slash dungeon romps?

Agree, but the gear must be used for something. No pvp to brag and show off in, no INSANELY hard bosses you can work towards clearing (yes, inferno bosses are hard, but Ive played a lot harder in other games). All gear even looks the same at max lvl (2 different looks), so its not even about creating a "cool" character.

Awesome game, but couldve been the best game to date if they had added some endgame stuff.

Didn't know that, that's kinda lame. Haven't played the third one yet.

I hate to say it but Blizzard's idea of "end game" is forcing people to grind daily quests. That extends gameplay life but is very boring and tedious. It's a stop-gap. I hope that what they come up with for this is better then that.

kortin:
It always amuses me when people desperately cling on to the hope that single player games won't be always online in the future.

Lol sure, sure. What does that remind me of? Oh yea:

Only Blizzard can get away releasing a game that had been in development for over a decade, unfinished, missing key systems, in many ways completely broken and STILL have fans lining up to sing their praises.
I hope their fans start to wake up soon.

So in Diablo II(+expansion) you could actually hunt for interesting set items (unique stuff) and leveling took ages to keep players busy.
Diablo III consists mostly of randomly generated items, you have an auction house and you can reach max level in a couple of days.

It's kinda hard to believe that they were unable to predict this.

You know... This has me thinking. Why is the reaction to this game so non existent? Had this been EA and say Bioware... people would demand heads on pikes. But Blizzard and Activision do something that is far far far more insidious, and its like no one is even remotely miffed about it.

Let's be honest everyone, D3 is a mess. Their launch was a mess, the way they designed the online integration is a mess, and now the end of the game has been determined to be a mess by themselves, despite no previous Diablo game ever needing such things. It's almost as if they've forgotten what game they were meant to be making.

They messed up the itemhunting which is usually one of the main selling points of these games.

Thanks to the auction house droprates of uniques are insanely low and set items are crafting only and can have attributes of other classes.
Thanks to that most you will ever get is generic yellows and the auction house further lowers the motivation to farm those for yourself.

And then there is the fact that everything on inferno can 1-3 shot you.

This is not that surprising from a company that's releasing an expansion to their game based on a joke from WC3

What were Blizzard doing for the beta testing? Using it just for hype?
This game and SC2 have ruined Blizz's rep and both games are eerily quiet. New Blizzard is a complete failure outside of WoW

DVS BSTrD:
You put in an AUCTION HOUSE and expect the item hunt to be sustainable?

Bingo. Also the volume of shit gear is overwhelming. +X STRENGTH & +X INTELLIGENCE is ridiculous for any item.

Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

Woem:
Can someone explain me what "end game" means in this context? What is a "sustainable end game"?

End Game is merely content that one can do after all else is said and done to further enjoy the game. Think Item Worlding or the post game content in the Disgaea titles or the randomly generated dungeons of Torchlight and the soon to be out Path of Exile.

Sustainable would be end game content that not only keeps people playing for as far ahead as one can predict, but is easy to produce. For Blizzard this normally means ridiculous amounts of grind, so that you have the right gear in order to grind the next tier and so on and so forth. They need to do this as they've designed games in such away that their income is dependant on people hanging around for years and continue paying.

They missed the point of ARPGs by a mile with D3.
Look at Diablo 2, Titan Quest or Torchlight to name a few who got the formula right.

Replayability and sustainability are caused by a few key points (IMHO).

Items, we all love to find them, D3 forgot that the biggest thrill people get in these games is the feeling when finding a set or unique (legendary) item. D3 massively downplayed sets and uniques to the point that most same lvl yellows were typically better removing any of that feeling of striking the jackpot, this removes all incentive to hunt down these awesome items and reduces it to hoping we get a good stats roll on our next yellow. Given the universal uselessness of most of these items, I know a few armour pieces are valued due to being able to have a stat that couldn't normally be on that slot, it just reduces the thrill to the point of meh.
Add in you can't even reliably farm gear for the next difficulty level from the one proceeding it and due to changes in MF and the new NV buff you can't even reliably farm gear until you hit 60 anyway and it just builds up the frustrations.

No point in creating a new character of the same class. Lets face it while you can argue the pros and cons of the skill system in D3 one of the biggest replayability killers is that you can change skills at any time no need to make a new character. With almost any ARPG part of the fun/challenge for a lot of people was building their toons. Building your stats and skills correctly was as important as your gear if nor more so, anyone could face roll normal difficulty with any build but to progress in the harder levels you needed to learn your class and how to shape it properly.

Customisability, most ARPGs give you the gear and you do with it as you will, melee wizard why not, ranged barbarian go for broke. D3 totally removed this aspect by removing the attacks based on weapon type and forcing you to only use your abilities, if you want a sword and board Demon Hunter tough you will be stuck only being allowed to throw grenades because demon hunters dunno how to swing a sword.
The other thing that baffled and annoyed me about this is the arbitrary weapon restrictions, monks can use polearms but not 2hand swords or axes but the wizard can use 2hand axes and swords but no polearms etc. What is the point in this beyond placing further limitations on us?

The last two points feed into the final point in that your character no longer feels like yours, the game just gives you your skills, it doles out your stat progression for you, you have no say in how to develop your character just follow the prescribed path and do as your told.

TBH D3 feels like babys first ARPG in many ways by removing complexity and "streamlining" the game it just doesn't feel deep or satisfying to me I have no urge to try new builds because you can experience everything a class has to offer first time around. I had about 5 different necromancer in D2, each with differing play styles and unique skill sets.

Kekkonen1:
Snippety snip

Kudos for actually bringing a level headed reason to dislike the always online DRM.

Im not a blizz apologist, but I do stand for theres a difference between a shitty game and a company's legal decisions making the game less accessible. Bashing a game because your internet connection/pc isnt up to online gaming is like calling crysis shitty because your pc cant run it on full graphics settings.

As for server downtime: D3 isnt a bad game because of it, thats blizz being idiots. Calling D3 a bad game because the company doesnt realise 5mill people online at the same time require A LOT of server power to handle it, is facepalm worthy.

I will defend D3 as long as the arguments is against blizz and not the game itself, the moment someone point out imbalance, bugs, flaws and other major issues that are unique to D3 (and not the internet connection) I might change my mind.

But yeh, blizz should have added an offline mode where you cant get achievements, use AH, and the characters there cant be used online. They wouldve still sold 5mill copies (if not more) had they done that. A real investment fail of blizz tbh.

Oh, and to please the gods of nitpicking: Do you have a source that duping/hacking is just as common in D3 as in D2? I ask because I wonder if its true. By hacking Im not refering to stolen accounts (cant blame the game for idiots falling for phishing scams), but the game being altered even if its a always online game.

PS:

Kekkonen1:
Also, I absolutely LOATHE lagging and will never buy a game that lags in singelplayer.

As I stated before, I find this argument strange, considering how many AAA games like dark souls and skyrim had some INSANE framerate drops and game breaking bugs, yet no one complained about that (some did ofc, but not the same scale as D3 lag got). The moment a game got lag, THEN it is an outrage. Why is lag so much more infuriating compared to bugs and framerate drops?

'It's not like World of Warcraft where we can put out new systems and content every couple of months.'

When has there ever been an ever where WOW got new content within a couple of months? A couple of months is two, not six.

I fucking called it. I fucking called it before it came out, I called it on release, and I called it one week after release in my review.

This will wind up hurting Blizzard in the long run. They could have made more money if they had focused on pleasing their existent audience instead of catering to a new, more "casual" one.

Kekkonen1:

SNIP

Hear Hear, thank you for writing exactly how I've felt about this issue so well and why I get annoyed by the people who don't seem to understand why people who refuse to buy and play D3 due to various issues are so hacked off.

OT: I would have thought they should have been ready for EG content by now, on the other hand shouldn't they have EG content sent out with the actual game that people payed for rather most of the game with the last bit chopped off. They had 12 years to develop this and they've had WoW. Couldn't they predict how long it took people to finish all the initial content of WoW and think ok this much content would be roughly this many game hours to complete everything, therefore most people would be reaching endgame content after about this long, simple statistics here.

Coreless:

The Rogue Wolf:
It probably says something that I haven't gotten anywhere near the end-game for D3. I quit playing after the fifth time I almost died due to Internet lag IN A SINGLE-PLAYER GAME.

Also, from quite a few forum posts I've read in other places, the higher difficulties have item drop-rates and enemy skills that practically mandate either grouping with other players or hitting the auction house for gear that'll help survival.

Pretty much, once you get to Inferno the difficulty (depending on your class) is time, it becomes nothing but watching the AH and gold farming. I've pretty much hit a brick wall with Act 2 on my Barb, the gear I need never drops or when the it does drop its mostly worthless for my class. I think out of about 60-70 rare drops I find something that might be usable but not really good enough to help push me further.

Exactly what I felt when I played Diablo 3.

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