IO Changed Hitman: Absolution Following Nun Controversy

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TAdamson:
One gives some justification, however flimsy, for events in its narrative. The other just has events and visuals because they look awesome.

Yeah, that puts ninja palace and sexy nuns-with-guns in the same category as "implausible but there to look awesome".

Exploit Japanese martial arts stereotypes = literally no one cares

Exploit Catholic stereotypes = "OH GOD NO!!! We don't even want play this game and we want it changed!"

Treblaine:

TAdamson:
One gives some justification, however flimsy, for events in its narrative. The other just has events and visuals because they look awesome.

Yeah, that puts ninja palace and sexy nuns-with-guns in the same category as "implausible but there to look awesome".

Exploit Japanese martial arts stereotypes = literally no one cares

Exploit Catholic stereotypes = "OH GOD NO!!! We don't even want play this game and we want it changed!"

That is in no way a Catholic stereotype.

Sexy Killer Nuns are a made up thing.

Ninjas are not a made up thing.

I for one enjoy latex clad nuns working as a team.

I fail to see how there was a controversy about this tbh.

According to the Vatican the Nuns of America are a rouge element anyway; all IO did was make them rouge and sexy.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:
The trailer is not inconsistent with what the fans of the series have come to expect, I don't mean in terms of misogyny but in terms of EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING being exploited to the extreme.

I disagree.

Hitman may not always be realistic, but it's always plausible. Sexy-Killer-Nuns is not plausible and drags me out of the fiction.

I can envisage Japanese mob boss guarding himself with sumo wrestler for the theatre of it.
I HAVE BEEN TO CLUBS WITH BDSM THEMES BELOW MEAT PACKING FACTORIES.
And as for larger than life Shieks; you think that they don't exist?

I know what doesn't exist though and that's a "Funky Force Five" of "Sexy Ninja Bondage Nuns".

O RLY? You can "envisage" a villain hiring lackeys and ordering them to dress a certain way for "the theatre of it".

Hmm, this applies to nuns-with-guns. Welcome to nunsploitation (yes, that's a word):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunsploitation

Robert Rodriguez can do it for promoting his motion picture, but it's pretty unheard of for any director to change film for conservatives having a backlash over sexuality... this side of the 21st century at least.

This is as close as video games can get to nunsploitation before the conservatives begin their sex-negative campaign.

Hitman series has NEVER COURTED PLAUSIBILITY!

He is a clone... from FIVE FATHERS, and he later killed them all then he massacred an army of his clone brothers mowing them down with a giant minigun. He assassinated the Vice President of the United States after saving a presidential candidates from some disgraced former olympians dressed in Big Bird costumes. Ever heard of that happening?

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

TAdamson:
One gives some justification, however flimsy, for events in its narrative. The other just has events and visuals because they look awesome.

Yeah, that puts ninja palace and sexy nuns-with-guns in the same category as "implausible but there to look awesome".

Exploit Japanese martial arts stereotypes = literally no one cares

Exploit Catholic stereotypes = "OH GOD NO!!! We don't even want play this game and we want it changed!"

That is in no way a Catholic stereotype.

Sexy Killer Nuns are a made up thing.

Ninjas are not a made up thing.

Actually, Ninjas (like seen in the game) ARE made up.

Ninjas never wore all-black, hung out in huge ninja palaces and wielded swords of samurai warriors. The ninja looks like a peasant, acts like a peasant and kills with a short dagger like weapon that looks like a farming implement though almost always it was poison or a contrived accident. Certainly not a ninja palace in 2000's Japan.

It's a completely concocted Japanese stereotype that has as much basis in reality as sexy nuns with machine guns, BOTH emerged in exploitation film in about the mid 20th century in their respective hemispheres.

Certainly most of the other things in Hitman are made up without any remotely plausible basis, like the depiction of central american drug kingpins, of Rotterdam biker gangs, of cloning... yeah, all that cloning of people in vats with 5 fathers and no mother sure sounds plausible to me. And on a scale of HUNDREDS being produced.

Treblaine:

O RLY? You can "envisage" a villain hiring lackeys and ordering them to dress a certain way for "the theatre of it".

Hmm, this applies to nuns-with-guns. Welcome to nunsploitation (yes, that's a word):

No it doesn't. Sumo Wrestlers would make good bouncers.

A bunch of women dressed as BONDAGE-NUNS going to do a hit on a man in a motel room is ridiculous.

Hitman series has NEVER COURTED PLAUSIBILITY!

Really? 90% of the list of missions suggest differently. Assassinating Russian generals, mob bosses, pornographers, rogue agents is all plausible.

He is a clone... from FIVE FATHERS, and he later killed them all then he massacred an army of his clone brothers mowing them down with a giant minigun.

Yes this is silly but at least it's covert. A group of killer sexy nuns is not covert.

Also I'd accept 'Face Off' in the Hitman universe but I wouldn't accept 'Kill Bill'.

He assassinated the Vice President of the United States after saving a presidential candidates from some disgraced former olympians dressed in Big Bird costumes. Ever heard of that happening?

A) Presidential assassination happens
B) Big Bird costumes are very plausible as a disguise. They exist in real life. Sexy Nun Bondage gear exists only in pornography and Rodriguez films.

matrix3509:

crazyrabbits:

matrix3509:
Goddamnit IO, we're are not offended just because the women are scantily clad, we (that is, we the fans of Hitman, and therefore the only people whose opinions on the trailer matter in the slightest) are offended because the trailer didn't look like Hitman, it just looked like shitty action schlock with ironic nuns. That is NOT Hitman.

This character has walked into a mental asylum to confront his creator and clones of himself. He's dressed up like a ninja to get into a samurai-era castle to kill a high-value target. He's killed a butcher in a room with a naked woman hanging barefoot from the ceiling. He killed a group of people (men and women) who dressed up as crows, and an "angelic" assassin who will kill him if he doesn't react. He could have spent the majority of the series making people die in freak accidents involving stairs and very short drops. He killed his albino brother in the White House, then followed it up by killing an innocent reporter, a crippled man and an entire funeral service.

Really, this whole incident is pretty far down the list in terms of WTF-ery from the franchise. If they make the story better as a result of this, I'm all for it - besides, there was already an explanation for who they are in one of the trailers.

Please don't presume to speak for everyone who's a fan of this series. Everything I've seen makes this look like it'll be just as good as Blood Money, if not better.

Notice how every single scenario you just described there basically proves my point. In none of those situations were shitty action movie setpieces employed, unlike the trailer. All signs point to the game being exactly that. Blockbuster movie shlock...probably with shitty cover mechanic tacked on for good measure.

Did you watch the chinatown gameplay trailer? People were complaining about the game "probably being a shitty blockbuster" until that came out, then they all suddenly disappeared when they realised hitman is still very much hitman. At most they'll probably have the odd actiony level thrown in, which would be good for switching the game up a bit.

Treblaine:

Actually, Ninjas (like seen in the game) ARE made up.

Ninjas never wore all-black, hung out in huge ninja palaces and wielded swords of samurai warriors. The ninja looks like a peasant, acts like a peasant and kills with a short dagger like weapon that looks like a farming implement though almost always it was poison or a contrived accident. Certainly not a ninja palace in 2000's Japan.

People kill each other with Samurai swords ALL THE TIME. They do it in Australia in clubs.

And if a yak mob boss want to guard his paper walled hide-out with black pajama clad sword wielding security then I can buy that. It's silly sure.

BUT NOT AS FUCKING SILLY AS 7 WOMEN DRESSED IN NUN-THEMED BONDAGE-GEAR CASUALLY STROLLING THROUGH A MOTEL PARKING LOT ON THEIR WAY TO KILL A DEADLY ASSASSIN!!!!!

Certainly most of the other things in Hitman are made up without any remotely plausible basis, like the depiction of central american drug kingpins, of Rotterdam biker gangs,

Really? You don't think those things exist? Again like the Japanese mob stuff some of it might be anachronistic, but it's all plausible.

yeah, all that cloning of people in vats with 5 fathers and no mother sure sounds plausible to me. And on a scale of HUNDREDS being produced.

Not scientifically plausible sure. BUT COMPARED TO 7 WOMEN DRESSED IN NUN-THEMED BONDAGE-GEAR etc etc blah blah blah........................................................

The whole fucking point of the Hitman universe is that you have to sneak around to get anything done. If you can just turn up with a bunch of women who may as well be dressed as Vegas show girls then the universe does not make sense.

There is the willing suspension of disbelief and then there is Kill Bill Sexy Nuns.

It's the difference between the slightly-ridiculous, hyper-violent, Tarantinoverse and the Kill Bill Universe.

One is silly.

The other is ridiculous.

Treblaine:
----

Let's put it this way.

I'd have no problems with Agent 47 battling SexyKillerNuns if they were guarding say,... A goth nightclub,.... or..... the studio of a bondage pornographer.

But out in broad daylight? In a motel car park?

In what plausible universe are Sexy-Killer-Nuns the people you call in that situation? Final Fantasy 16?

Holy shit, why the hell dd everyone lose their shit over a fucking trailer? Lighten up people, I hate how people are somehow offended by the trailer, I thought it was great, good action and actually made me interested in the game.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

O RLY? You can "envisage" a villain hiring lackeys and ordering them to dress a certain way for "the theatre of it".

Hmm, this applies to nuns-with-guns. Welcome to nunsploitation (yes, that's a word):

No it doesn't. Sumo Wrestlers would make good bouncers.

A bunch of women dressed as BONDAGE-NUNS going to do a hit on a man in a motel room is ridiculous.

Hitman series has NEVER COURTED PLAUSIBILITY!

Really? 90% of the list of missions suggest differently. Assassinating Russian generals, mob bosses, pornographers, rogue agents is all plausible.

He is a clone... from FIVE FATHERS, and he later killed them all then he massacred an army of his clone brothers mowing them down with a giant minigun.

Yes this is silly but at least it's covert. A group of killer sexy nuns is not covert.

Also I'd accept 'Face Off' in the Hitman universe but I wouldn't accept 'Kill Bill'.

He assassinated the Vice President of the United States after saving a presidential candidates from some disgraced former olympians dressed in Big Bird costumes. Ever heard of that happening?

A) Presidential assassination happens
B) Big Bird costumes are very plausible as a disguise. They exist in real life. Sexy Nun Bondage gear exists only in pornography and Rodriguez films.

Have you played the Hitman game? Because I have. At least watch through all the lets-plays of two of the games.

Stop listing plausible things as proof the game is plausible an ignoring the implausible things. It's like watching Kill Bill and saying "well there ARE Yakuza clans in Japan".

How the hell is a mini-gun in a mental asylum covert?

Assassinated IN THE WHITEHOUSE? And escaping alive? You haven't played these games have you.

Sexy nun outfits "exist" as well as big-bird costumes. Big Bird costume is the most implausible disguise, it's as implausible as being dressed as nuns.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

Actually, Ninjas (like seen in the game) ARE made up.

Ninjas never wore all-black, hung out in huge ninja palaces and wielded swords of samurai warriors. The ninja looks like a peasant, acts like a peasant and kills with a short dagger like weapon that looks like a farming implement though almost always it was poison or a contrived accident. Certainly not a ninja palace in 2000's Japan.

People kill each other with Samurai swords ALL THE TIME. They do it in Australia in clubs.

And if a yak mob boss want to guard his paper walled hide-out with black pajama clad sword wielding security then I can buy that. It's silly sure.

BUT NOT AS FUCKING SILLY AS 7 WOMEN DRESSED IN NUN-THEMED BONDAGE-GEAR CASUALLY STROLLING THROUGH A MOTEL PARKING LOT ON THEIR WAY TO KILL A DEADLY ASSASSIN!!!!!

Certainly most of the other things in Hitman are made up without any remotely plausible basis, like the depiction of central american drug kingpins, of Rotterdam biker gangs,

Really? You don't think those things exist? Again like the Japanese mob stuff some of it might be anachronistic, but it's all plausible.

yeah, all that cloning of people in vats with 5 fathers and no mother sure sounds plausible to me. And on a scale of HUNDREDS being produced.

Not scientifically plausible sure. BUT COMPARED TO 7 WOMEN DRESSED IN NUN-THEMED BONDAGE-GEAR etc etc blah blah blah........................................................

The whole fucking point of the Hitman universe is that you have to sneak around to get anything done. If you can just turn up with a bunch of women who may as well be dressed as Vegas show girls then the universe does not make sense.

There is the willing suspension of disbelief and then there is Kill Bill Sexy Nuns.

It's the difference between the slightly-ridiculous, hyper-violent, Tarantinoverse and the Kill Bill Universe.

One is silly.

The other is ridiculous.

CAPS LOCKS ALL YOU LIKE YOU ARE STILL BEING INCONSISTENT IN YOUR REASONING! Is precedent the only thing that matters? Because there is no precedent to ninja palace in 21st century Japan. Some Australian bar fights using a samurai sword does not a ninja palace in the mountains make.

"then the universe does not make sense."

It's not going to make sense if you haven't played any of the games, or even the game in question.

Sexy Killer nuns is well within the suspension of disbelief along with mowing down armies of you clone brothers with a minigun.

"One is silly. The other is ridiculous."

Both are synonymous with each other.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/silly

Treblaine:

How the hell is a mini-gun in a mental asylum covert?

Lot's of soundproofing.

It's stupid but it's better than women choosing to dress in the most non-covert costumes ever to kill someone in a carpark.

Assassinated IN THE WHITEHOUSE? And escaping alive? You haven't played these games have you.

You're missing the difference between "realism" and "plausible suspension of disbelief".

Sexy nun outfits "exist" as well as big-bird costumes.

Not outside of bondage clubs, films, and bedrooms.

Big Bird costume is the most implausible disguise, it's as implausible as being dressed as nuns.

A sexy nun costume would get you arrested in most places. A big bird costume would not.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:
----

Let's put it this way.

I'd have no problems with Agent 47 battling SexyKillerNuns if they were guarding say,... A goth nightclub,.... or..... the studio of a bondage pornographer.

But out in broad daylight? In a motel car park?

In what plausible universe are Sexy-Killer-Nuns the people you call in that situation? Final Fantasy 16?

What if they worked FOR a bondage pornographer, or or just some super freaky mob boss was just into that kind of shit.

They went to where Agent 47 was, which was (typically for a Hitman on the run) a seedy motel at the time where they knew he would be there, in the daylight.

It is as implausible as a clone from 5 fathers grown in a vat without even a mother mowing down hundreds of his clone brothers with a minigun. Or foiling an assassination attempt on a presidential candidated by a troop of disgraced olympic gold medalists disguised in big-bird costumes.

Only someone completely ignorant of the games could claim the nun trailer was inconsistent with the series precedents.

Treblaine:

"One is silly. The other is ridiculous."

Both are synonymous with each other.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/silly

Ninjas in a Japanese castle is anachronistic but plausible themically.

Colombian drug lords in a 19th century villa is anachronistic but plausible themically.

Bondage Nuns coming to kill Agent 47 in a parking lot IS NOT PLAUSIBLE THEMICALLY.

By your line of reasoning it would be okay if aliens came down from the sky and Agent 47 had to fight against them on their space ship.

TAdamson:

Sexy nun outfits "exist" as well as big-bird costumes.

Not outside of bondage clubs, films, and bedrooms.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?!?!

Are you saying that if you take a sexy-nun outfit outside a sex club, film set or a bedroom the outfit just disappears from existence?!??

Big Bird costume is the most implausible disguise, it's as implausible as being dressed as nuns.

A sexy nun costume would get you arrested in most places. A big bird costume would not.

Nope. They wear enough that it would never be considered indecent exposure. Both would get undue attention. And they approached in what looked like totally legit nuns habits, then they kicked the habit. Who knows how these assassins had been conditioned, what sense of "theatre" their employer expected of them.

If it was realistic, they would be dressed as normal civilians.

Pro-tip: PLAY THE HITMAN SERIES! They are good games and you might then actually know something about the subject that you are saying you can draw conclusions about.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

"One is silly. The other is ridiculous."

Both are synonymous with each other.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/silly

Ninjas in a Japanese castle is anachronistic but plausible themically.

Colombian drug lords in a 19th century villa is anachronistic but plausible themically.

Bondage Nuns coming to kill Agent 47 in a parking lot IS NOT PLAUSIBLE THEMICALLY.

By your line of reasoning it would be okay if aliens came down from the sky and Agent 47 had to fight against them on their space ship.

I have TOLD YOU they aren't just anachronistic, THERE WERE NEVER ninja palaces! It's a concotion of exploitation martial arts movies of the 60's and 70's, even though it fits "themically" (do you mean "thematically").

It's entirely your baseless assertion that it doesn't fit thematically, the seedy motel is part of the Americana theme, nunspoitation is another part of Americana.

Aliens wouldn't be the weirdest thing in the Hitman series.

PS: you played any hitman games yet? Watched a full lets-play at least?

Treblaine:

It is as implausible as a clone from 5 fathers grown in a vat without even a mother mowing down hundreds of his clone brothers with a minigun. Or foiling an assassination attempt on a presidential candidated by a troop of disgraced olympic gold medalists disguised in big-bird costumes.

Only someone completely ignorant of the games could claim the nun trailer was inconsistent with the series precedents.

I've played that game and I agree it's ridiculous.

But I completely disagree that "the series precedents" are "consistant with" bondage-nuns coming to kill 47 in a parking lot.

A) 5 fathers is plausible enough given enough genetic recombinant research.

B) There is no real indication of where the asylum is.

C) The asylum is obviously well sound proofed.

Also if you can hire teams of people dressed like Bondage Nuns to kill people WHY WOULD YOU NEED 47?

Treblaine:

It's entirely your baseless assertion that it doesn't fit thematically, the seedy motel is part of the Americana theme, nunspoitation is another part of Americana.

No it's not.

Americana would be Wall Street Bankers, Florida Drug Dealers, Black Gansters, and Good Ol' Boys. All of which feature in exaggerated fashion in Hitman.

Hitman is about exaggeration NOT FANTASY.

Bondage nuns would be more appropriate in a German or Russian strip club.

To have them in broad daylight in a motel parking lot IS FANTASY.

Why the fuck would you dress as bondage nuns to go kill a guy in a motel?

On the other hand if I was attacked by a bunch of clones of myself in an insane asylum and I had a minigun I'd totally shoot them with the minigun... That would make sense from a motivational point of view.

But these ladies? I don't get the motivation to strap on lots of uncomfortable leather AND WIMPLES to go kill someone when:

A) Jeans and a T-shirt would make more sense covertly.
B) Body armour would make more sense non-covertly

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

It is as implausible as a clone from 5 fathers grown in a vat without even a mother mowing down hundreds of his clone brothers with a minigun. Or foiling an assassination attempt on a presidential candidated by a troop of disgraced olympic gold medalists disguised in big-bird costumes.

Only someone completely ignorant of the games could claim the nun trailer was inconsistent with the series precedents.

I've played that game and I agree it's ridiculous.

But I completely disagree that "the series precedents" are "consistant with" bondage-nuns coming to kill 47 in a parking lot.

A) 5 fathers is plausible enough given enough genetic recombinant research.

B) There is no real indication of where the asylum is.

C) The asylum is obviously well sound proofed.

Also if you can hire teams of people dressed like Bondage Nuns to kill people WHY WOULD YOU NEED 47?

Come back when you have actually played through more of the series as you DO discover where the Asylum is and the police respond in force and find hundreds of dead identical twins (triplets, multiplets?) riddled with bullets. It is in no way covert. And even if Agen 47 tens to be covert, why should another separate group coming after him be covert?

And why would you need Agent 47? For one, if they are trying to kill 47 then he obviously isn't on their side, and for two, agent 47 manages to not only survive but kill all the assassins who came after him. You don't have any idea bout Hitman do you? You don't know who he is even working for now. He's an unstoppable killing machine, he's the best.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

It's entirely your baseless assertion that it doesn't fit thematically, the seedy motel is part of the Americana theme, nunspoitation is another part of Americana.

No it's not.

Americana would be Wall Street Bankers, Florida Drug Dealers, Black Gansters, and Good Ol' Boys. All of which feature in exaggerated fashion in Hitman.

Hitman is about exaggeration NOT FANTASY.

Bondage nuns would be more appropriate in a German or Russian strip club.

To have them in broad daylight in a motel parking lot IS FANTASY.

But nusploitation was mainly in AMERICAN exploitation films set in AMERICA! It's a part of Americana. Did you read that nunsploitation article? See films don't have this problem, games really are getting unfair persecution on this issue objecting to nunsploitation that films have used since the 1960's.

Don't know what you are saying about "fantasy" none of the games in the series have been reality. Are you failing to insinuate this is just fap material as that is utterly disingenuous and totally unconvincing though ceetainly easy to make a drive by baseless insinuation. No. It's designed to shock not for oogling.

TAdamson:

Why the fuck would you dress as bondage nuns to go kill a guy in a motel?

On the other hand if I was attacked by a bunch of clones of myself in an insane asylum and I had a minigun I'd totally shoot them with the minigun... That would make sense from a motivational point of view.

But these ladies? I don't get the motivation to strap on lots of uncomfortable leather AND WIMPLES to go kill someone when:

A) Jeans and a T-shirt would make more sense covertly.
B) Body armour would make more sense non-covertly

Because their boss is a sick weirdo who has a "taste for the theatrical". Much like many of the previous opponents Agent 47 has gone against.

I mean did you play the ending of Hitman Blood Money. That's no way practical, entirely theatre that jeopardised their lives.

It's established by the logo the killer-nuns are all wearing these are not some freelancers who do things their own way being driven entirely by practicality.

Treblaine:

But nusploitation was mainly in AMERICAN exploitation films set in AMERICA!

The first line of

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nunsploitation

The article that YOU linked to is:

"Nunsploitation is a subgenre of exploitation film which had its peak in Europe in the 1970s"

HMMM.

In fact there is NO NUNSPLOITATION IN AMERICAN FILM APART FROM A RODRIGUEZ FILM SET IN MEXICO!!!!!

TAdamson:

Because their boss is a sick weirdo who has a "taste for the theatrical". Much like many of the previous opponents Agent 47 has gone against.

The taste for the theatrical should extend to having the guards of you hideout wear silly clothes, not the hired assassins you send out into the streets.

Plausibility!!!

It's plausible that in the Yakuza mansion the guards are dressed in black and wear Samurai swords.

It's not plausible that they go out in public to kill people dressed like that.

It's plausible that all the rich men at the Melbourne Club are beating each other with leather whips. They don't do it in public though, they're respectable gentlemen.

TAdamson:

Treb:

Because their boss is a sick weirdo who has a "taste for the theatrical". Much like many of the previous opponents Agent 47 has gone against.

The taste for the theatrical should extend to having the guards of you hideout wear silly clothes, not the hired assassins you send out into the streets.

Plausibility!!!

It's plausible that in the Yakuza mansion the guards are dressed in black and wear Samurai swords.

It's not plausible that they go out in public to kill people dressed like that.

It's plausible that all the rich men at the Melbourne Club are beating each other with leather whips. They don't do it in public though, they're respectable gentlemen.

Why? You just assert they wouldn't do that, yet with you giving no explanation?

Screw plausible. Minigun! Clone army! Big-bird assassins!

Why isn't it plausible for them to go out like that? It's not like it's going to make any difference, they are already wielding rocket launchers and fancy automatic weapons. They were in vanilla nuns attire till they drew their guns. You don't even know the back story. Don't you even CARE!!!?! Doesn't it even pique your interest what kind of circumstances could lead to such an attempt on Agent 47's life, in that way??!?!

TAdamson:

In fact there is NO NUNSPLOITATION IN AMERICAN FILM APART FROM A RODRIGUEZ FILM SET IN MEXICO!!!!!

Yes, but an American production made in English for an American release. A recent one. And IO interactive are European developers.

Treblaine:

Don't know what you are saying about "fantasy" none of the games in the series have been reality.

There is a difference between "High concept" and "Fantasy".

There is Face/Off or Jurassic Park or even Indiana Jones where concepts might not be realistic but otherwise events somewhat realistically happen around them.

(Note that this is the video game universe and in that Hitman is as realistic as Call of Duty 4)

And then there is Kill Bill or Charlie's Angels where realistic events get jettisoned for style.

Sexy nun hitsquad jettisoned realistic events for style. That wouldn't always be bad but we've had two games now (Contracts and Blood Money) where hyper-reality fiction trumpted the fantastical.

Treblaine:
Doesn't it even pique your interest what kind of circumstances could lead to such an attempt on Agent 47's life, in that way??!?!

I'd prefer that they were wearing Jeans and T-shirts. That would make more sense.

Treblaine:
WHAT! It's got villains pulled straight out of the most Over-the-top comic books, it's got 500lbs sumo wrestlers who guard their boss dressed AS a sumo wrestler, it's BDSM clubs located underneath a meat-packing factory, it's "heaven and hell" nighclubs, it's a pornographers hedonistic party in his mountain mansion, it's assassinating larger than life rich Sheiks in a Vegas casino. The series is like James Bond, only the evil mirror universe bond where the hero is the villain with smatterings of goodness rather than the inverse.

What Hitman games have you played? If any???!?!

The term you don't address is "Self-censorship". They aren't changing this to be more true to the work that their fans have been following, but to cater to the people who have no understanding nor investment in the series who want it changed. The trailer is not inconsistent with what the fans of the series have come to expect, I don't mean in terms of misogyny but in terms of EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING being exploited to the extreme.

To answer your obnoxiously-toned question, I've played the first three Hitman games. It's been at least 3 years since the last one, but I have played them. Yes, No.1 had the heavyset body guard in a robe, but it's not like he was going around wearing nothing but the sumo wrestler diaper-thing and nothing else. It wasn't a BDSM club under a meat packing plant, it was a party being hosted AT a meat packing plant; odd location, yes, but believable since you need a large building to host a big party and using a building you own would save money. Heaven and hell night clubs, hedonistic parties and assassinating high-profile targets are all within the realms of plausibility.

Outside of 47's origin, the series largely doesn't rely on science fiction plot devices or cartoonishly over-the-top scenarios. Yes you'll find some elements here and there that are somewhat outlandish, but nothing so blatant to date (that I've heard of) as killer gimp nuns. You don't, for example, see 47 use nanomachines to create a disguise as a rodeo clown so he can strap a block of C4 to a bull and lead it up into the stands of a rodeo to blow up the entire VIP box on a hit on the Governor of Texas because he's really a space alien in disguise, and escape by farting a jet pack out of his @$$.

And no, I didn't address self-censorship because frankly I wasn't concerned with that aspect of this event. But if you -want- me to, fine. Yes, companies are getting into a bad habit of caving in every time someone complains about something in their games. That is a dangerous habit to get into because it jeopardizes creative integrity. But on the flip side, sometimes people have to admit when they've screwed up and been needlessly insulting or disrespectful. It's not censoring, self or otherwise, or oppressing people to expect them to show some respect and taste.

BlindWorg:
I am still failing to see the reason why people got worked into a hissyfit over the trailer

*insert generic rant about game and fictions not having an effect on the real world expect through very unhinged individuals who were crazy even before buying the game*

I've never been a big fan of the series myself (don't like the aiming controls :P) but from what I gathered, people were pissed because a game that normally takes itself pretty seriously suddenly pit a cold-blooded assassin against a posse of rocket-weilding ninja hookers dressed as nuns. I doubt it was the "dressed as nuns" part that upset people the most, but rather the fact that the stoic Agent 47 was fighting a group of "rocket-weilding ninja hookers".

Treblaine:

TAdamson:

In fact there is NO NUNSPLOITATION IN AMERICAN FILM APART FROM A RODRIGUEZ FILM SET IN MEXICO!!!!!

Yes, but an American production made in English for an American release. A recent one. And IO interactive are European developers.

Well then that make even less sense.

Look most of "nunsploitation"

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nunsploitation&page=2

is set in European convents or European brothels. It's NOT AMERICANA and it definitely doesn't involve much nuns with uzis.

At least ninjas WERE actually about killing people, occasionally wore black and THEY DID USE KATANA just FYI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja#Weaponry

Treblaine:

maninahat:

Lara pissed people off because this new game is an origin story, and the HR guy made the mistake of implying that Lara's tough, individualist demeanor stemmed from an attempted rape. That follows on from what I was just saying about how "tough" women in stories tend to have been raped in the past and "that's why they're tough". That kind of thing never happens to explain why a man is tough.

The "rape made them tough" is 100% ENTIRELY MADE UP by the very critics OF the idea.

They make up the idea and then say they object to it when that was NEVER anyone's idea. No one ever said "Entirely because she was raped, that made her a badass... like spiderman's spider bite".

Nope. Characters enduring suffering has always been used as an EXAMPLE of how badass they are, it's not even a trope, it's a fundamental tenement of storytelling.

If John Rambo had had a comfortable life filling out tax returns and dying of old age, how would you know he was a badass? No. He is shown in a prison camp being sliced up and electrocuted and broken down to almost nothing, that doesn't make him badass, but rising up again does. Ditto for Casino Royale.

Was John Rambo and James Bond raped early in their life? No? Typical. For male characters, it is either assumed they are badass by nature (James Bond), or that if they had an obstacle to overcome in the past (Rambo), that obstacle is hardly ever rape. For women, rape is a far more "popular" choice of obstacle. Whilst no writer openly claims that "WOMEN MUST BE RAPED TO BE STRONG!!", rape happens so often in stories, people have noticed the trend and the unfortunate implications of it showing up so regularly.

I never heard anyone calling for a boycott of Deliverance or The Shawshank Redemption for the attempted or actual rape of the main character in those films. I wonder what difference it makes that they were men being raped?

Most stories don't get boycotted for containing rape, which is just as well, considering how often attempted rape comes up in them. That said, I'm not surprised people have finally gotten fed up of how frequently female rape appears. Male rape doesn't happen very often in drama, so I suppose when it does, it feels like the issue is being treated with care and restraint. But for women in fiction, it happens so often that it has become a throw in detail for female characters, used by lazy writers to immediately put a woman in peril, establish a villain, or explain why a woman has become so tough. This is why you don't get boycotts over male rape. Speaking of which, are you suggesting people shouldn't have a problem with female rape portrayals? Coz' I can't figure out where you are coming from.

"tough" women in stories tend to have been raped

Tend to?
-Ellen Ripley
-Sarah Connor
-Jenette Vasquez
-Tank Girl
-Trinity

Nope.

Listing a few examples of strong women who weren't raped doesn't disprove my argument that tough women tend to get raped. Spend more time looking up the rape tropes. It'll save me the trouble of having to list how often rape is used in character development.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

Don't know what you are saying about "fantasy" none of the games in the series have been reality.

There is a difference between "High concept" and "Fantasy".

There is Face/Off or Jurassic Park or even Indiana Jones where concepts might not be realistic but otherwise events somewhat realistically happen around them.

(Note that this is the video game universe and in that Hitman is as realistic as Call of Duty 4)

And then there is Kill Bill or Charlie's Angels where realistic events get jettisoned for style.

Sexy nun hitsquad jettisoned realistic events for style. That wouldn't always be bad but we've had two games now (Contracts and Blood Money) where hyper-reality fiction trumpted the fantastical.

"Hitman is as realistic as Call of Duty 4"

image

Hitman is like Kill Bill or Charlie's Angles. The Ninja palace. That's like something right you'd see in a Kill Bill film.

"Blood Money... hyper-reality fiction"

Of blood money, with the funeral scene at the end... with the feeding people to gaters... dropping chandeliers on people's heads... random hoedowns at a wedding...

TAdamson:

Treblaine:
Doesn't it even pique your interest what kind of circumstances could lead to such an attempt on Agent 47's life, in that way??!?!

I'd prefer that they were wearing Jeans and T-shirts. That would make more sense.

You are trying to make sense of it by CHANGING things, that will not work. Explanations would be seeing the motivations, not changing the result.

It's like demanding the assassin stop wearing the disgraced olympians Big-Bird costume when they are trying to assassinate politicians.

You are demanding a very boring and predictable game.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

TAdamson:

In fact there is NO NUNSPLOITATION IN AMERICAN FILM APART FROM A RODRIGUEZ FILM SET IN MEXICO!!!!!

Yes, but an American production made in English for an American release. A recent one. And IO interactive are European developers.

Well then that make even less sense.

Look most of "nunsploitation"

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nunsploitation&page=2

is set in European convents or European brothels. It's NOT AMERICANA and it definitely doesn't involve much nuns with uzis.

At least ninjas WERE actually about killing people, occasionally wear black and THEY DID USE KATANA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja#Weaponry

That's not a DEFINING element of nunsploitation. It doesn't HAVE to be set in Europe.

Nunsploitation is entirely about (people dressed as) nuns doing what nuns wouldn't do, like being overtly sexual and wield big ass weapons and killing people. Films do this. But you act like games can't, even for a film that advertises a game.

Mike Fang:

Treblaine:
WHAT! It's got villains pulled straight out of the most Over-the-top comic books, it's got 500lbs sumo wrestlers who guard their boss dressed AS a sumo wrestler, it's BDSM clubs located underneath a meat-packing factory, it's "heaven and hell" nighclubs, it's a pornographers hedonistic party in his mountain mansion, it's assassinating larger than life rich Sheiks in a Vegas casino. The series is like James Bond, only the evil mirror universe bond where the hero is the villain with smatterings of goodness rather than the inverse.

What Hitman games have you played? If any???!?!

The term you don't address is "Self-censorship". They aren't changing this to be more true to the work that their fans have been following, but to cater to the people who have no understanding nor investment in the series who want it changed. The trailer is not inconsistent with what the fans of the series have come to expect, I don't mean in terms of misogyny but in terms of EVERYTHING AND ANYTHING being exploited to the extreme.

To answer your obnoxiously-toned question, I've played the first three Hitman games. It's been at least 3 years since the last one, but I have played them. Yes, No.1 had the heavyset body guard in a robe, but it's not like he was going around wearing nothing but the sumo wrestler diaper-thing and nothing else. It wasn't a BDSM club under a meat packing plant, it was a party being hosted AT a meat packing plant; odd location, yes, but believable since you need a large building to host a big party and using a building you own would save money. Heaven and hell night clubs, hedonistic parties and assassinating high-profile targets are all within the realms of plausibility.

Outside of 47's origin, the series largely doesn't rely on science fiction plot devices or cartoonishly over-the-top scenarios. Yes you'll find some elements here and there that are somewhat outlandish, but nothing so blatant to date (that I've heard of) as killer gimp nuns. You don't, for example, see 47 use nanomachines to create a disguise as a rodeo clown so he can strap a block of C4 to a bull and lead it up into the stands of a rodeo to blow up the entire VIP box on a hit on the Governor of Texas because he's really a space alien in disguise, and escape by farting a jet pack out of his @$$.

And no, I didn't address self-censorship because frankly I wasn't concerned with that aspect of this event. But if you -want- me to, fine. Yes, companies are getting into a bad habit of caving in every time someone complains about something in their games. That is a dangerous habit to get into because it jeopardizes creative integrity. But on the flip side, sometimes people have to admit when they've screwed up and been needlessly insulting or disrespectful. It's not censoring, self or otherwise, or oppressing people to expect them to show some respect and taste.

First three games, so you haven't played Blood Money. Which is a shame as it's a great game and is quite relevant as the latest instalment.

You could stop trying to make all the insane and ludicrous scenarios and characters of Hitman seem normal and typical, you wouldn't accept that about the sexy nun outfits, I don't accept your excuses. You admit there are some outlandish elements, the sexy nuns would just be another example.

to create a disguise as a rodeo clown so he can strap a block of C4 to a bull and lead it up into the stands of a rodeo to blow up the entire VIP box on a hit on the Governor of Texas

He hid a bomb in a cake to blow up a river boat captain.

He assassinates the Vice President of the United States... in the White House... and gets away with it.

expect them to show some respect and taste.

This is a game about MURDERING PEOPLE and this is the game where respect and taste are important. Again, modern western soiety is going down the sinkhole because we are more freaked out by some women in miniskirts than innocent people being brutually and sadistically murdered (fictionally) as our entertainment. Not that I have a problem with that, but if you don't have a problem with that... then why freak out about a skirt?

Hypocrisy. If not, what else?

maninahat:

Was John Rambo and James Bond raped early in their life? No? Typical. For male characters, it is either assumed they are badass by nature (James Bond), or that if they had an obstacle to overcome in the past (Rambo), that obstacle is hardly ever rape. For women, rape is a far more "popular" choice of obstacle. Whilst no writer openly claims that "WOMEN MUST BE RAPED TO BE STRONG!!", rape happens so often in stories, people have noticed the trend and the unfortunate implications of it showing up so regularly.

I never heard anyone calling for a boycott of Deliverance or The Shawshank Redemption for the attempted or actual rape of the main character in those films. I wonder what difference it makes that they were men being raped?

Most stories don't get boycotted for containing rape, which is just as well, considering how often attempted rape comes up in them. That said, I'm not surprised people have finally gotten fed up of how frequently female rape appears. Male rape doesn't happen very often in drama, so I suppose when it does, it feels like the issue is being treated with care and restraint. But for women in fiction, it happens so often that it has become a throw in detail for female characters, used by lazy writers to immediately put a woman in peril, establish a villain, or explain why a woman has become so tough. This is why you don't get boycotts over male rape. Speaking of which, are you suggesting people shouldn't have a problem with female rape portrayals? Coz' I can't figure out where you are coming from.

"tough" women in stories tend to have been raped

Tend to?
-Ellen Ripley
-Sarah Connor
-Jenette Vasquez
-Tank Girl
-Trinity

Nope.

Listing a few examples of strong women who weren't raped doesn't disprove my argument that tough women tend to get raped. Spend more time looking up the rape tropes. It'll save me the trouble of having to list how often rape is used in character development.

Was John Rambo and James Bond raped early in their life? No? Typical.

image

OK, now you are complaining about characters NOT being raped. When you see a male character get raped do you go "YES! Now lets hope all the male characters get raped".

Oh, by the way... Lara didn't get raped either. Some thug got frisky and she kicked his ass. That. Is. IT!

It's not like this is the first time we've seen Lara in this situation:

I said it before and I'll say it again. The people complaining are NOT Tomb Raider fans, they are passing bystanders with no understanding nor invested interest in the characters nor narrative.

Rape happens so often because so often thugs ARE RAPISTS! They are the type of thugs overdosing in testosterone, dumb and sexually hyperactive. It isn't the writer that is misogynist, it is the nature of criminal scum and out of control men high on power.

Yeah, Pulp Fiction really showed care and restraint, Deliverance too with lines like "squeal like a piggie!" repeated throughout the scene.

It's not lazy writing. That's like saying having the villain murder people is lazy writing. How are you qualified to say what is lazy writing, what books have you written? What published literary critiques have you made?

I'm saying if you don't have a problem with male rape you shouldn't have a problem with female rape. Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

Male rape is ACTUALLY common for one main reason, men are over-represented in films, especially in leading roles and rape is a compelling thing to drive narrative, not a lazy cliche. A poorly compelling narrative would be something like "I have to go to the shops to buy food because I have nothing to eat for supper".

The examples I list are major action heroines where rape is not a factor. Your theory is worthless, that just over-reacts to any rape anywhere where is isn't men being raped.

Treblaine:

maninahat:

Was John Rambo and James Bond raped early in their life? No? Typical.

OK, now you are complaining about characters NOT being raped. When you see a male character get raped do you go "YES! Now lets hope all the male characters get raped".

WHY OF COURSE I WA- no. I most certainly wasn't. Don't be a tool box.

Oh, by the way... Lara didn't get raped either. Some thug got frisky and she kicked his ass. That. Is. IT!

I heard it described as an "attempted rape" (the infamous words of the studio's producer). In the trailer, the suggestion of an attempted rape is fairly clear. "Someone getting frisky" is not how I would describe sexual molestation of any kind.

I said it before and I'll say it again. The people complaining are NOT Tomb Raider fans, they are passing bystanders with no understanding nor invested interest in the characters nor narrative.

Does this huge, blanket assumption cover all the escapists? And me?

Rape happens so often because so often thugs ARE RAPISTS! They are the type of thugs overdosing in testosterone, dumb and sexually hyperactive. It isn't the writer that is misogynist, it is the nature of criminal scum and out of control men high on power.

Thugs or villains do not need to be written as rapists to make them come across as unpleasant or villainous. It's quite easy to communicate how brutish an antagonist is without resorting to it, like in Arkham Asylum. But many writers still like to go for the easiest way to invoke a gut response: make the villain a rapist.

It's not lazy writing. That's like saying having the villain murder people is lazy writing. How are you qualified to say what is lazy writing, what books have you written? What published literary critiques have you made?

Even though I have had literary criticism published, and that I can assure you I have a fairly hefty background in the subject, it is totally irrelevant. Lazy writing is simply when one uses cheap or exploitative devices to convey something, instead of relying on something more original or organic to the story. Revealing a character to be a rapist, apropos of nothing, is right up there with "we know they're villains because they're Nazi's/Arabs/Commies" in terms of lazy writing.

Incidentally, this is why Deliverance does a good job of handling the subject of rape; it isn't just thrown in to make the hillbillies seem extra evil. The entire story is centred around the rape, and the protagonist's response to it. That's the difference between sensibly approaching a serious issue, and exploiting it for the sake of a five minute action sequence. As for Pulp Fiction, well, it is in a movie called "Pulp Fiction", the entire premise of which is to celebrate trashy, exploitative schlock stories.

I'm saying if you don't have a problem with male rape you shouldn't have a problem with female rape. Otherwise you'd be a hypocrite.

I never said I was fine with male rape, and neither did anyone commenting on the Lara Croft controversy. There is this strange assumption going around that because people ommit to mention male issues any time they want to discuss female issues, they must not give a shit about men. We shouldn't have to qualify every criticism we make of female depictions with "oh, and its bad that men get raped too". Of course its bad, but it is irrelevant to the particular discussion about Miss Croft.

The examples I list are major action heroines where rape is not a factor. Your theory is worthless, that just over-reacts to any rape anywhere where is isn't men being raped.

The examples you gave are not representative of all action heroines ever written. Besides, Ripley was totally fighting off rapist aliens throughout the entire alien franchise. But that's okay - that's one of the few times where rape makes sense in the context, and is organic to the story.

Wait they didn't have any backstory planned until people started getting pissed? They actually were just there to be hot? Fuck this, I never thought I would say this but their stupidity has actually put me off buying the game. If they couldn't see this coming there might be problems in the gameplay department that they wont see coming until everyone's like "X is the worst gameplay mechanic ever" or "I can't believe they thought X was a good idea". That might sound petty, and maybe it is but this is just pure fucking idiocy to have not even considered giving them a backstory.

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