IO Changed Hitman: Absolution Following Nun Controversy

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maninahat:

Thugs or villains do not need to be written as rapists to make them come across as unpleasant or villainous.

"Need"???!?? Who writes by such as strict criteria that nothing ever happens unless it is strictly needed. It makes everything totally predictable, boring and cliched.

You seem to have missed the point I made, the antagonist weren't made rapist to make them evil, it is BECAUSE they are violent anti-social thugs that such things you'd naturally expect from such characters. This is what SO OFTEN happens when you have violent men with guns who aren't accountable to any law or societal norms who capture women, you are surprised and see it out of character that these people already guilty of kidnapping and murder - just ONE of them might attempt rape?!?!?!

As for Pulp Fiction, well, it is in a movie called "Pulp Fiction", the entire premise of which is to celebrate trashy, exploitative schlock stories.

That's Hitman as well. What, did you think this was trying to be the Citizen Kane of video games? It has a sequence where you set a woman on fire and she jumps into a huge shark tank to extinguish the flames only to be eaten by the shark in front of a crowd who cheer thinking it is all part of the act.

We shouldn't have to qualify every criticism we make of female depictions with "oh, and its bad that men get raped too". Of course its bad, but it is irrelevant to the particular discussion about Miss Croft.

Well it's telling that there are no discussion ANYWHERE saying male-rape shouldn't appear in those films - of which there are many many examples - yet even the suggestion of an attempt in a trailer... suddenly for a whole month the entire Escapist forums complain about that above all else and there are petitions and threats of boycotts.

The examples you gave are not representative of all action heroines ever written. Besides, Ripley was totally fighting off rapist aliens throughout the entire alien franchise. But that's okay - that's one of the few times where rape makes sense in the context, and is organic to the story.

No, but it is representative of how your theory doesn't stand up to the facts. Your theory isn't that it ever happens, but that is almost always happens to female protagonists.

It's a stretch to call the Aliens rapists (in which case all the males were in a equal danger) but seeing where you are coming from you say this makes sense and is "organic" with the story. Who knows what you mean by organic, natural? It's not clear. But you approve. Yet the idea of one murderous thug might try to have sex with with a female captive against her will, suddenly that just doesn't make any sense in the context.

I mean what is the freaking context for Deliverance? Hillbillies just walk up and suddenly hold them at gun point and rape them. Completely unexpected.

Treblaine:

You seem to have missed the point I made, the antagonist weren't made rapist to make them evil, it is BECAUSE they are violent anti-social thugs that such things you'd naturally expect from such characters.

Their criminal behaviour makes them plausible rapists, but that doesn't mean a writer should make them into rapists. Nor does it really excuse the writer when they do.

As for Pulp Fiction, well, it is in a movie called "Pulp Fiction", the entire premise of which is to celebrate trashy, exploitative schlock stories.

That's Hitman as well. What, did you think this was trying to be the Citizen Kane of video games? It has a sequence where you set a woman on fire and she jumps into a huge shark tank to extinguish the flames only to be eaten by the shark in front of a crowd who cheer thinking it is all part of the act.

I don't think so. Hitman makes no effort to be realistic, or even the slightest bit sensible, but unlike Pulp Fiction, it isn't really intended as celebration of tacky story telling. Its colourful, larger than life situations are there to encourage a player to approach a situation with creativity, and feel appropriately detatched when committing a murder.

Well it's telling that there are no discussion ANYWHERE saying male-rape shouldn't appear in those films - of which there are many many examples - yet even the suggestion of an attempt in a trailer... suddenly for a whole month the entire Escapist forums complain about that above all else and there are petitions and threats of boycotts.

You are free to have that discussion whenever you like, though preferably in it's own thread. If you want a specific, professional website that looks at negative male portrayals, I heartily recommend this one. Sadly, people only ever seem to bring up the issue of male rape when they want to complain about discussions of female rape. That reeks of insincerity - they don't actually want to discuss male rape, they just want to use it as a means to discredit other conversations they'd rather not hear.

No, but it is representative of how your theory doesn't stand up to the facts. Your theory isn't that it ever happens, but that is almost always happens to female protagonists.

Actually, what I said was "tends to happen". "Tends" doesn't mean "almost always", it means "prone", or "frequently".

It's a stretch to call the Aliens rapists (in which case all the males were in a equal danger) but seeing where you are coming from you say this makes sense and is "organic" with the story. Who knows what you mean by organic, natural? It's not clear. But you approve. Yet the idea of one murderous thug might try to have sex with with a female captive against her will, suddenly that just doesn't make any sense in the context.

I mean organic, in that relation between rape and the aliens is inherent in the way the story is told. The aliens attack people with a giant cock shaped tongue, and their primary objective is to impregnate people with face hugger, felatio crabs. The art design consists almost entirely of penis, vagina and sex imagery (seriously, google "Giger Alien Art Design"). In Alien, everything is built around the premise of sexual violation.

In Deliverance, the rape provides the context and the entire premise of the story. The rape starts off the plot, and the rest of the film is about how the men are running for their lives, trying to defend themselves, escape, and get back at the rapists. In both Deliverance and Alien, rape is integral to the story being told, and as such, it gets given an appropriate degree of gravitas.

In The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Lizbeth's guardian blackmails her into having sex with him. This happens out of the blue, and has no actual bearing on the main plot (which is a murder mystery). Once the rape is dealt with five minutes later, the rapist and the situation is never reflected upon again. The rape is simply used to establish Lizbeth's character as a psychologically broken, but ultimately powerful woman who hates rapists. Apparently, the only way the writer could establish a broken, strong woman was to have Lizbeth get raped, and then have her own back in the next scene. That is cheap writing. Perhaps not the most crass example, but a fairly recent one that demonstrates the "raped to be strong" issue.

Treblaine:

That's not a DEFINING element of nunsploitation. It doesn't HAVE to be set in Europe.

Nunsploitation is entirely about (people dressed as) nuns doing what nuns wouldn't do, like being overtly sexual and wield big ass weapons and killing people. Films do this. But you act like games can't, even for a film that advertises a game.

I'm not saying that games can't.

I'm saying that Hitman shouldn't.

I have utterly destroyed your claim that nunsploitation is "americana" and that it normally involves weapons. It usually involves bondage. Your version of nunsploitation seems to be based on one shitty Rodriguez film

I have utterly destroyed you claim that ninjas never existed as presented. Plenty of ninjas used katana and depictions of ninjas wearing black clothing go bat to the 19th century.

And you claim that people wearing "big bird" costumes DURING A CARNIVAL is as unrealistic as bondage-nuns at a shitty motel destroys itself.

Basically my argument is this:

You can be as ridiculous as you want but it must make sense in some way.

Big bird costumes at a carnival ARE FINE.
Ninja and sumo wrestlers in a yakuza mansion ARE FINE.

People dressing en-masse in ridiculous costumes to kill a guy in a dodgy motel IS NOT FINE.

It breaks through the point where I'm willing to suspend disbelief. Its obvious that the creators put it in purely because it looked cool without caring if it made sense.

And yes Hitman IS as realistic as Call of Duty. Call of Duty being about as realistic as a late 90s Bond film. AKA fucking ridiculous.

trty00:

Davroth:
Let me guess. This does not set back the medium by a century, right? Because artistic vision doesn't exist when it's about anything that could be interpreted as sexist...?

Nobody forced IO to change the game, they did that out of their own free will.

No one forced Bioware, either.

Davroth:

trty00:

Davroth:
Let me guess. This does not set back the medium by a century, right? Because artistic vision doesn't exist when it's about anything that could be interpreted as sexist...?

Nobody forced IO to change the game, they did that out of their own free will.

No one forced Bioware, either.

Heh, could've fooled me. But seriously, IO changing the game of their own volition is no blow to "artistic integrity." I think Jim Sterling said it best in his "changing a game's ending and destroying art" episode of the Jimquisition.

trty00:

Davroth:

trty00:

Nobody forced IO to change the game, they did that out of their own free will.

No one forced Bioware, either.

Heh, could've fooled me. But seriously, IO changing the game of their own volition is no blow to "artistic integrity." I think Jim Sterling said it best in his "changing a game's ending and destroying art" episode of the Jimquisition.

So they didn't change parts of the game because of the extreme negative backlash caused by the that trailer, both from critiques and potential buyers? This isn't an artistic decision, it's a business decision. And in that way, it's eerily similar to the whole Bioware extended ending controversy.

maninahat:

Treblaine:

You seem to have missed the point I made, the antagonist weren't made rapist to make them evil, it is BECAUSE they are violent anti-social thugs that such things you'd naturally expect from such characters.

Their criminal behaviour makes them plausible rapists, but that doesn't mean a writer should make them into rapists. Nor does it really excuse the writer when they do.

------

I don't think so. Hitman makes no effort to be realistic, or even the slightest bit sensible, but unlike Pulp Fiction, it isn't really intended as celebration of tacky story telling. Its colourful, larger than life situations are there to encourage a player to approach a situation with creativity, and feel appropriately detatched when committing a murder.

Well it's telling that there are no discussion ANYWHERE saying male-rape shouldn't appear in those films - of which there are many many examples - yet even the suggestion of an attempt in a trailer... suddenly for a whole month the entire Escapist forums complain about that above all else and there are petitions and threats of boycotts.

You are free to have that discussion whenever you like, though preferably in it's own thread. If you want a specific, professional website that looks at negative male portrayals, I heartily recommend this one. Sadly, people only ever seem to bring up the issue of male rape when they want to complain about discussions of female rape. That reeks of insincerity - they don't actually want to discuss male rape, they just want to use it as a means to discredit other conversations they'd rather not hear.

No, but it is representative of how your theory doesn't stand up to the facts. Your theory isn't that it ever happens, but that is almost always happens to female protagonists.

Actually, what I said was "tends to happen". "Tends" doesn't mean "almost always", it means "prone", or "frequently".

It's a stretch to call the Aliens rapists (in which case all the males were in a equal danger) but seeing where you are coming from you say this makes sense and is "organic" with the story. Who knows what you mean by organic, natural? It's not clear. But you approve. Yet the idea of one murderous thug might try to have sex with with a female captive against her will, suddenly that just doesn't make any sense in the context.

I mean organic, in that relation between rape and the aliens is inherent in the way the story is told. The aliens attack people with a giant cock shaped tongue, and their primary objective is to impregnate people with face hugger, felatio crabs. The art design consists almost entirely of penis, vagina and sex imagery (seriously, google "Giger Alien Art Design"). In Alien, everything is built around the premise of sexual violation.

In Deliverance, the rape provides the context and the entire premise of the story. The rape starts off the plot, and the rest of the film is about how the men are running for their lives, trying to defend themselves, escape, and get back at the rapists. In both Deliverance and Alien, rape is integral to the story being told, and as such, it gets given an appropriate degree of gravitas.

In The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, Lizbeth's guardian blackmails her into having sex with him. This happens out of the blue, and has no actual bearing on the main plot (which is a murder mystery). Once the rape is dealt with five minutes later, the rapist and the situation is never reflected upon again. The rape is simply used to establish Lizbeth's character as a psychologically broken, but ultimately powerful woman who hates rapists. Apparently, the only way the writer could establish a broken, strong woman was to have Lizbeth get raped, and then have her own back in the next scene. That is cheap writing. Perhaps not the most crass example, but a fairly recent one that demonstrates the "raped to be strong" issue.

Right so it is "inexcusable" for any writer can make a murderous criminal a rapist even if it is plausible... right.

"(Hitman is) Its colourful, larger than life situations "

Right, Sexy nun assassins sure are colourful and larger than life.

The trailer is not the game. The Game follows the perspective of Agent 47 but the trailers have always been more as outsiders looking in. If they knew Agent 47 was neurotic about female sexuality, wouldn't it add to the theatre to have sexy women kill him?

Also the end of Blood Money there is the implication that Agent 47 is not so afraid of female sexuality as he is seen visiting a fancy brothel for a private dance. Maybe Hitman Absolution is following how Agent 47 is more independent now and has less neurotic sexuality.

Male rape is brought up to show the inconsistency of people demanding self-censorship of people objecting to what happens with women in games compared to with films and books.

Do you think that the Millenium Trilogy is crap? Are you (or anyone) going to petition Stieg Larsson's estate to censor his work and remove any reference to Salander possibly being raped or someone trying to rape her? Because that is what people are asking of the developers of Tomb Raider. And what they are expecting of the Hitman developers to remove any miniskirts.

I clearly does not "tend to" happen female protagonists after so many high profile examples without it. How many examples could you possibly give before you started to go into the obscure?

Again, rape says NOTHING about the target, it only says anything about the perpetrator. "He was tortured" says nothing about the character of the person who got tortured. "he tortured someone" says something about the character as it shows they are cruel enough to torture.

Are you saying with Deliverance and Aliens that you say are ENTIRELY about the antagonists trying to rape the main characters that you should only have rape in a story if it is a main central element.

What if Tomb Raider was like Deliverance, where all the antagonists are rapists and rape is their motivation and is the main motivation of the story, Lara must escape and evade and the rapists don't want her too. Somehow I think that would make everyone even madder.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

That's not a DEFINING element of nunsploitation. It doesn't HAVE to be set in Europe.

Nunsploitation is entirely about (people dressed as) nuns doing what nuns wouldn't do, like being overtly sexual and wield big ass weapons and killing people. Films do this. But you act like games can't, even for a film that advertises a game.

I'm not saying that games can't.

I'm saying that Hitman shouldn't.

I have utterly destroyed your claim that nunsploitation is "americana" and that it normally involves weapons. It usually involves bondage. Your version of nunsploitation seems to be based on one shitty Rodriguez film

I have utterly destroyed you claim that ninjas never existed as presented. Plenty of ninjas used katana and depictions of ninjas wearing black clothing go bat to the 19th century.

And you claim that people wearing "big bird" costumes DURING A CARNIVAL is as unrealistic as bondage-nuns at a shitty motel destroys itself.

Basically my argument is this:

You can be as ridiculous as you want but it must make sense in some way.

Big bird costumes at a carnival ARE FINE.
Ninja and sumo wrestlers in a yakuza mansion ARE FINE.

People dressing en-masse in ridiculous costumes to kill a guy in a dodgy motel IS NOT FINE.

It breaks through the point where I'm willing to suspend disbelief. Its obvious that the creators put it in purely because it looked cool without caring if it made sense.

And yes Hitman IS as realistic as Call of Duty. Call of Duty being about as realistic as a late 90s Bond film. AKA fucking ridiculous.

Like nunsploitation being Americana was the crux of my argument.

"I have utterly destroyed you claim that ninjas never existed as presented."

Lol nope. You do NOT UNDERSTAND. Ninjas were depicted as dressed in black in 19th century theatre ONLY because the stage hands wore all black and the conceit was that you were supposed to ignore the stage-hands dressed in black. The symbolism of the stage hand drsssed in black suddenly stabbing a character and it being declared a ninja did it, that is NOT to say ninjas dress in black but SYMBOLICALLY that they were killed suddenly and invisibly by an unknown person.

A big-bird costume blends in as well as nun outfits. The trailer showed the troop of assassins dressed authentically as nuns before revealing their guns and more extreme attire. Remember they know that Agent 47 is neurotic and fearful of female sexuality, wouldn't it be tormenting to send sexy women to kill him? Makes sense for a villain who has a taste for the theatrical and irony.

Your assertions are just your opinion.

My argument does NOT depend on me convincing you, as you could refuse to be convinced.

You haven't proven why it would break suspension of disbelief, you have just asserted that is your personal stance.

Irridium:
Wait, so is he saying the characters in the game didn't originally have context before this trailer?

Because what I get from this is that in the game the nuns would have been nothing but scantily clad women you beat up/killed, and now there's going to be a reason to do this.

Does this sound a bit odd to anyone else, or am I just reading this wrong? Why the fuck didn't they give it all context in the first damn place?!

no i with you all the way. As for the reason why they didn't get context before the answer is simple developers not giving a shit about story.

Treblaine:

Blah blah blah, snip.

You are such a blatantly obvious troll at this point. Just do us all a favor, take your ill-tempered attitude, your refusal to have a polite discussion and your pathetic desire to pick fights with people over a stupid-@$$ game, shut your mouth, and leave.

Treblaine:

A big-bird costume blends in as well as nun outfits.

The big bird costumes are AT A CARNIVAL.

The nuns are in a COMPLETELY AVERAGE SITUATION.

If you think that the second blends in as well as the first then you are tripping.

Also if a guy decides to dress his guards at his mansion as ninjas or whatever then that is completely different from send a bunch of heavily made-up women, dressed as nuns, in leather bondage gear to kill some one in a hotel.

One is eccentric. The other is ridiculous. One I can buy happening, the other I cannot.

I'm done.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

A big-bird costume blends in as well as nun outfits.

The big bird costumes are AT A CARNIVAL.

The nuns are in a COMPLETELY AVERAGE SITUATION.

If you think that the second blends in as well as the first then you are tripping.

Also if a guy decides to dress his guards at his mansion as ninjas or whatever then that is completely different from send a bunch of heavily made-up women, dressed as nuns, in leather bondage gear to kill some one in a hotel.

One is eccentric. The other is ridiculous. One I can buy happening, the other I cannot.

I'm done.

Too right you're done, well and truly done. You were finished 2 replies ago.

Big Bird costume stands out in a carnival when almost everyone else is dressed in casual dress. Such costumed in real life are DESIGNED to stand out! It is there entirely by the designer's intent to have them stand out.

I'm not tripping. You are tripping if you see a groups of nuns walking by a road and suspect skulduggery. They approached dressed convincingly as nuns and not till drawing their weapon did they reveal their extreme attire. Attire which is not the least bit related to bondage, you don't seem to know or care that bondage means RESTRAINTS and none are present, only miniskirts.

You have DISINGENUOUSLY ignored these points, repeatedly. In fact you have been ignoring about half my points each reply only to repeat your baseless assertions or pick away using the same fallacies. Is this all there is to say in the defence of this censorship!?!?! Surely someone better can defend it than you. Or is the pressure being put on IO to self-censor truly indefensible.

You assert that sexy nun assassins are "completely different" from a freaking giant ninja palace, but that AGAIN is not any sort of explanation or argument but nothing but a baseless assertion that adds NOTHING to the discussion. No one cares if you can't buy the other happening, you have a vested interest to deny it! It's like arguing with a creationist who falls back on the argument "well I still don't buy evolution", SO WHAT!?!

This is a DISCUSSION forum not an OPINION forum, and you've repeated your opinion more than enough and have not backed it up.

Eccentric is again close enough to be synonymous with ridiculous. These are such shallow and meaningless distinctions and assertions.

This was mostly manufactured controversy and it is sad to see them making changes to the game based on it.

I think the devs and publishers are starting to realize that the online gaming "press" is stirring up a lot of trouble that doesn't really exist.

I hope they don't actually get rid of the costumes. I thought they were a nice mixture of sexy, cute, fun and awesome. Dem ladies were badass.

Treblaine:

Big Bird costume stands out in a carnival when almost everyone else is dressed in casual dress. Such costumed in real life are DESIGNED to stand out! It is there entirely by the designer's intent to have them stand out.

It's a carnival. It makes sense. Deal with it.

You are tripping if you see a groups of nuns walking by a road and suspect skulduggery.

Yeah.... Because nuns dress like this:

image

image

All the time....

I'd totally have to have some screws loose to think that there was something untoward there. What was I thinking?

(Not to mention how stupid wearing that to kill someone as dangerous as 47 would be. Stilleto Platforms? Really? The second that Mother Superior fires the RPG she's going to break an ankle.)

It's clearly put there for titillation. Which would be fine, but at least make it contextually appropriate! Put them in club, or a brothel, or make them some sort of pervert's live-in house guards/maids.

I'd have the similar problems if the ninjas with samurai swords came to the motel but this is way worse. Its be more comparable to a bunch of circus clowns coming to kill our bald friend.

Surely someone better can defend it than you. Or is the pressure being put on IO to self-censor truly indefensible.

Fuck them. If they don't have the courage of their convictions to pull "sexy nuns" off in a believable way then they clearly hadn't thought it through.

You assert that sexy nun assassins are "completely different" from a freaking giant ninja palace,

Yep Because the palace is not a public place,, is secluded. CLEAR?

This is a DISCUSSION forum not an OPINION forum, and you've repeated your opinion more than enough and have not backed it up.

Dude speak for yourself. You gone far further with this than I have.

Eccentric is again close enough to be synonymous with ridiculous. These are such shallow and meaningless distinctions and assertions.

Ummm no eccentricities are a things that people actually do. Like wearing fluffy rabbit slippers because no one else can see you. Or wearing women's underwear. Or asking your guards to dress in stylized costumes to fit the theme of your mansion.

People do not dress up as nuns to kill people in motels. That occurs in fantasy land.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

Big Bird costume stands out in a carnival when almost everyone else is dressed in casual dress. Such costumed in real life are DESIGNED to stand out! It is there entirely by the designer's intent to have them stand out.

It's a carnival. It makes sense. Deal with it.

You are tripping if you see a groups of nuns walking by a road and suspect skulduggery.

Yeah.... Because nuns dress like this:

image

All the time....

I'd totally have to have some screws loose to think that there was something untoward there. What was I thinking?

(Not to mention how stupid wearing that to kill someone as dangerous as 47 would be.)

Surely someone better can defend it than you. Or is the pressure being put on IO to self-censor truly indefensible.

Fuck them. If they don't have the courage of their convictions to pull sexy nuns off in a believable way then they clearly hadn't thought it through.

You assert that sexy nun assassins are "completely different" from a freaking giant ninja palace,

Yep Because the palace is not a public place,, is secluded. CLEAR?

This is a DISCUSSION forum not an OPINION forum, and you've repeated your opinion more than enough and have not backed it up.

Dude speak for yourself. You gone far further with this than I have.

Eccentric is again close enough to be synonymous with ridiculous. These are such shallow and meaningless distinctions and assertions.

Ummm no eccentricities are a things that people actually do. Like wearing fluffy rabbit slippers because no one else can see you. Or asking your guards to dress in stylized costumes to fit the theme of your mansion.

People do not dress up as nuns to kill people in motels. That occurs in fantasy land.

So that's your argument? Deception.

They approached dressed like THIS:

image

You know they approached like that so you knew it wasn't true what you said. Even after I TOLD YOU! So many times now you have ignored this, repeated it even after I specifically told you that you ignored it.

Prreviously on Treb's comment:
You are tripping if you see a groups of nuns walking by a road and suspect skulduggery. They approached dressed convincingly as nuns and not till drawing their weapon did they reveal their extreme attire.

You've been caught red handed. You've been ranting about this for several pages now, about NOTHING!

What is the point in those assassins keeping up the pretence of their nun disguise WHEN THEY ARE WIELDING ROCKET LAUNCHERS AND ASSAULT RIFLES!! Will you address this? Probably like the previous 3 replies you won't.

People do not dress up as nuns to kill people in motels. That occurs in fantasy land.

Pro tip: Hitman is NOT REALITY, it is a work of fantasy. People don't send clones to assassinate the Vice President inside the White House.

Ninja Palaces in 2000's era Japan are a work of fantasy. This is not an assertion, this is an argument based on established facts.

Other people in this thread are joining in to tell you how wrong you are. Get real.

Treblaine:

So that's your argument? Deception.

What're they going to do afterwards? Their disguises are now lying in the mud. They're wearing crotchless leather pants and 5-inch heels. That seems like the perfect getaway outfit.

Quick! put out an APB on some nuns! Oh! It can't be them, they aren't nuns, they're clearly a group of nun themed prostitutes.... Heywaitaminute!

Pro tip: Hitman is NOT REALITY, it is a work of fantasy. People don't send clones to assassinate the Vice President inside the White House.

Realism isn't some sort of black and white thing. There is a sliding scale.

Your point seems to be "Oh there's Ninja palaces therefore anything can happen". Which I firmly disagree with.

I can accept the ninja palace because it's not out in the open. I can accept that 47 is a highly classified clone. The world of Hitman, to me, is a world that is a mirror of our own until you look into the dark corners. A world that is normal until you break into a Japanese palace or go look into the mad psychiatrist's cellar. Like the X-Files... or, if it made less sense, Lost (Fuck you Damon Lindelof).

But these ladies are out in the open, in broad daylight dressed in clothes more appropriate for a brothel.

I don't believe that X-Files is reality or even remotely realistic but I don't expect Mulder and Scully to be attacked by Funky-Nun-Force-Five. That'd be fucking stupid.

(Not to mention how stupid wearing that to kill someone as dangerous as 47 would be. Stilleto Platforms? Really? The second that Mother Superior fires the RPG she's going to break an ankle.)

I'd have the similar problems if the ninjas with samurai swords came to the motel but this is way worse. It'd be more comparable to a bunch of circus clowns with big floppy shoes coming to kill our bald friend.

Ninja Palaces in 2000's era Japan are a work of fantasy. This is not an assertion, this is an argument based on established facts.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you been in every Japanese palace or Yakuza mansion? Closed doors my friend.

That's not to say that I believe that they exist, but I find the thought of their existence MORE PLAUSIBLE THAN SEXY BONDAGE ASSASSIN NUNS.

Get what I'm saying?

(I love the phrase: "this is an argument bases on established facts" by the way. It's really convincing rhetoric. You should use it in the next argument you have about a videogame's tone and style.)

Other people in this thread are joining in to tell you how wrong you are. Get real.

Quite a few people on my side too.

For someone claiming that this is a "discussion thread not an opinion thread" you're kicking up a lot of the angry confrontation.

Treblaine:

you don't seem to know or care that bondage means RESTRAINTS and none are present, only miniskirts.

Semantics. Contextually what I said makes sense. These ladies look like they're out for a good half week of BDSM.

But since we're indulging in such ridiculous pedantry; "only miniskirts" huh? I count 3 full vinyl body-suits, 1 pair of crotchless stockings with leather romper, 1 pair of fishnets with leather romper etc etc etc.

Why don't you actually deal with the more pertinent point that it would be ridiculous for people to dress that way to go kill someone? Just because there are ninjas somewhere in a private mansion, and 47 is a clone, are not a reasonable explanations.

Oh and by the way: Saying this:

It's like arguing with a creationist who falls back on the argument "well I still don't buy evolution", SO WHAT!?!

Totally undercuts saying this:

This is a DISCUSSION forum not an OPINION forum, and you've repeated your opinion more than enough and have not backed it up.

But you still get you sexy nuns so I guess you win.

http://teksyndicate.com/news/2012/08/17/hitman-absolution-sexy-nuns-given-depth-win-gaming-community

So I guess your all crying about:

Is this all there is to say in the defence of this censorship!?!?!

Is about nothing. And it's not fucking censorship by the way. It's asking for sensible context.

So this whole flap seems be about IO trying to add that sensible context to this retarded story element.

If anything, however, I think this is more retarded. It seems that these ladies do ALL of their operations in wimples and bondage gear. O_o

Fuck it. Why not just have a bunch of killer clowns as the next hit team like I said? They can come to kill 47 while he's relaxing in the English countryside. It's the least suspicious way and it totally makes sense because "ninja palace/clone assassin".

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

So that's your argument? Deception.

What're they going to do afterwards? Their disguises are now lying in the mud. They're wearing crotchless leather pants and 5-inch heels. That seems like the perfect getaway outfit.

Quick! put out an APB on some nuns! Oh! It can't be them, they aren't nuns, they're clearly a group of nun themed prostitutes.... Heywaitaminute!

Pro tip: Hitman is NOT REALITY, it is a work of fantasy. People don't send clones to assassinate the Vice President inside the White House.

Realism isn't some sort of black and white thing. There is a sliding scale.

Your point seems to be "Oh there's Ninja palaces therefore anything can happen". Which I firmly disagree with.

I can accept the ninja palace because it's not out in the open. I can accept that 47 is a highly classified clone. The world of Hitman, to me, is a world that is a mirror of our own until you look into the dark corners. A world that is normal until you break into a Japanese palace or go look into the mad psychiatrist's cellar. Like the X-Files... or, if it made less sense, Lost (Fuck you Damon Lindelof).

But these ladies are out in the open, in broad daylight dressed in clothes more appropriate for a brothel.

I don't believe that X-Files is reality or even remotely realistic but I don't expect Mulder and Scully to be attacked by Funky-Nun-Force-Five. That'd be fucking stupid.

(Not to mention how stupid wearing that to kill someone as dangerous as 47 would be. Stilleto Platforms? Really? The second that Mother Superior fires the RPG she's going to break an ankle.)

I'd have the similar problems if the ninjas with samurai swords came to the motel but this is way worse. It'd be more comparable to a bunch of circus clowns with big floppy shoes coming to kill our bald friend.

Ninja Palaces in 2000's era Japan are a work of fantasy. This is not an assertion, this is an argument based on established facts.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you been in every Japanese palace or Yakuza mansion? Closed doors my friend.

That's not to say that I believe that they exist, but I find the thought of their existence MORE PLAUSIBLE THAN SEXY BONDAGE ASSASSIN NUNS.

Get what I'm saying?

(I love the phrase: "this is an argument bases on established facts" by the way. It's really convincing rhetoric. You should use it in the next argument you have about a videogame's tone and style.)

Other people in this thread are joining in to tell you how wrong you are. Get real.

Quite a few people on my side too.

For someone claiming that this is a "discussion thread not an opinion thread" you're kicking up a lot of the angry confrontation.

You have generated the confrontation.

Could you please give ONE reply to ONE post, not two separate replies.

And again with the "bondage" weasel words when you know full well that nothing here has to do with bondage. It's leather. That's it.

The heels, so what. This is an insane organisation, they are going to do crazy things like wear heels on a hit. Big Bird costume, giant foam feet, can't see very well.

"Oh there's Ninja palaces therefore anything can happen"

Strawman, A blatant one. My argument is not "anything" can happen. Again, zero discussion value.

You "out in the open" argument is baseless considering all the insane shit done in "the open" before like the Big Bird assassins and the Meat King's party.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you been in every Japanese palace or Yakuza mansion?

How do you know there haven't been any sexy-nun assassins? Have you been everywhere in the world? Yes, Ninja Assassin palaces would be ridiculously implausible, equally sending a troop of female assassins dressed as sexy nuns. Your claim of inconsistency is completely arbitrary. I don't think you are IN ANY WAY qualified to assert with authority what should and should not be in a Hitman game.

Again this so called "argument" that "I don't find it plausible" it not an argument. Of course you don't.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

you don't seem to know or care that bondage means RESTRAINTS and none are present, only miniskirts.

Semantics. Contextually what I said makes sense. These ladies look like they're out for a good half week of BDSM.

But since we're indulging in such ridiculous pedantry; "only miniskirts" huh? I count 3 full vinyl body-suits, 1 pair of crotchless stockings with leather romper, 1 pair of fishnets with leather romper etc etc etc.

Why don't you actually deal with the more pertinent point that it would be ridiculous for people to dress that way to go kill someone? Just because there are ninjas somewhere in a private mansion, and 47 is a clone, are not a reasonable explanations.

Oh and by the way: Saying this:

It's like arguing with a creationist who falls back on the argument "well I still don't buy evolution", SO WHAT!?!

Totally undercuts saying this:

This is a DISCUSSION forum not an OPINION forum, and you've repeated your opinion more than enough and have not backed it up.

But you still get you sexy nuns so I guess you win.

http://teksyndicate.com/news/2012/08/17/hitman-absolution-sexy-nuns-given-depth-win-gaming-community

So I guess your all crying about:

Is this all there is to say in the defence of this censorship!?!?!

Is about nothing. And it's not fucking censorship by the way. It's asking for sensible context.

So this whole flap seems be about IO trying to add that sensible context to this retarded story element.

If anything, however, I think this is more retarded. It seems that these ladies do ALL of their operations in wimples and bondage gear. O_o

Fuck it. Why not just have a bunch of killer clowns as the next hit team like I said? They can come to kill 47 while he's relaxing in the English countryside. It's the least suspicious way and it totally makes sense because "ninja palace/clone assassin".

It's not semantics. It is ACTUAL! It's like saying they are dressed like basketball players and when pointed out nothing they are doing or wearing is related to basketball related to you cry "semantics".

Semantics is not a get-out-clause for making BLATANTLY FALSE AND SELF SERVING claims.

It's miniskirts and catsuits. It's not crotchless pants, it's a garter belt. That's it. You are clearly woefully ignorant of dress style and sex if you conclude that is "bondage".

Repeat after me: this has NOTHING to do with bondage. WHY are you dragging bondage into this? Bondage means RESTRAINTS. It may be with ropes, leather or chains (handcuffs) it is not defined by vinyl clothing.

Yes, it's ridiculous. Entirely fitting with what the ridiculousness that Hitman series has established. Have you played the series? Do you even CARE about the series or is it just conservative meddling?

You have made PERSONAL ASSERTIONS, so now you have to lay clean your politics and prejudices, do you disapprove of women showing their legs in public? Does it enrage you?

http://teksyndicate.com/news/2012/08/17/hitman-absolution-sexy-nuns-given-depth-win-gaming-community

Except the demand was not for context, YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG THEY SHOULDN'T BE THERE AT ALL!!! (yes block capitals are necessary for you who ignore points so inconvenient to you).

Again, caught red handed.

I welcome context, you NEVER asked for it, you ENDLESSLY asserted - baselessly - that they could never fit in the Hitman universe.

Why not just have a bunch of killer clowns as the next hit team like I said? They can come to kill 47 while he's relaxing in the English countryside.

You may be joking but that would be perfect, that IS Hitman. Clowns, with machine guns, brilliant. You clearly just don't get Hitman and seem to think it should be just like Call of Duty for gawd sake.

Treblaine:

And again with the "bondage" weasel words when you know full well that nothing here has to do with bondage. It's leather. That's it.

Pedantry.

And "weasel words"? Fuck off.

I don't give a fuck about bondage. But that is what it looks like. I could say gothic fetishwear I guess (Doeen't really roll off the tongue as bondage-nuns though).

However I don't understand why you give a fuck what a call it. We all know what I'm talking about.

The heels, so what. This is an insane organisation, they are going to do crazy things like wear heels on a hit. Big Bird costume, giant foam feet, can't see very well.

The birds are guards. AT A CARNIVAL.

The women are highly trained assassins. AT A MOTEL!!!!

"Oh there's Ninja palaces therefore anything can happen"

Strawman, A blatant one.

No that. You're arguing that because some guards dress as ninjas IN A JAPANESE PALACE or that some guards dress in bird costumes AT A CARNIVAL that it's perfectly okay that Assassins dress in "Nun Themed Gothic Fetishwear" (Fuck you, they're Bondage Nuns) FOR NO REASON.

You "out in the open" argument is baseless considering all the insane shit done in "the open" before like the Big Bird assassins and the Meat King's party.

Are we talking about the carnival again? Bird suit! Carnival! Makes contextual sense! Why so hard to understand.

And I really fail to see how the Meat King was out in the open.... Really.... Not in the open. Not in the slightest.

HOW DO YOU KNOW? Have you been in every Japanese palace or Yakuza mansion?

Yes, Ninja Assassin palaces would be ridiculously implausible, equally sending a troop of female assassins dressed as sexy nuns.

Do you understand how you can own private property?
Do you understand how you might have guards for that property?
Maybe you ask your guards to dress as ninjas for shits and giggles.
Why not? Weird and eccentric yes. Insane? No.

Say you wanted to kill someone, someone really dangerous and you want to do it in a public place. Lets hire some assassins. Lets dress them as nuns as a disguise.

Okay. I can buy that. What's the disguise hiding?

Nun themed gothic fetishwear.

??????????????????????????LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Treblaine:

Semantics is not a get-out-clause for making BLATANTLY FALSE AND SELF SERVING claims.

It's miniskirts and catsuits. It's not crotchless pants, it's a garter belt. That's it. You are clearly woefully ignorant of dress style and sex if you conclude that is "bondage".

Repeat after me: this has NOTHING to do with bondage. WHY are you dragging bondage into this? Bondage means RESTRAINTS. It may be with ropes, leather or chains (handcuffs) it is not defined by vinyl clothing.

Fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCKING GOTHIC FETISHWEAR. Gaawwwwwd. I don't know why my mind associates gothic fetishwear with bondage. Oh wait, all that pornography... Right.

You're a fucking pedant. You know what I'm talking about.

Yes, it's ridiculous. Entirely fitting with what the ridiculousness that Hitman series has established.

Clearly we disagree.

Have you played the series?

Yes.

Do you even CARE about the series or is it just conservative meddling?

No I hate the series.

Clearly.

That's why I have spent 40 or so paragraphs arguing that events within it should involve some contextual sense and meaning.

You have made PERSONAL ASSERTIONS, so now you have to lay clean your politics and prejudices, do you disapprove of women showing their legs in public? Does it enrage you?

???????????????????????????? What're you on bro?

Except the demand was not for context, YOU HAVE BEEN SAYING ALL ALONG THEY SHOULDN'T BE THERE AT ALL!!! (yes block capitals are necessary for you who ignore points so inconvenient to you).

Again, caught red handed.

Red handed??????????????????????

Sigh. Sorry that you misinterpereted what I was saying.

I thought I was clearly saying that Bondage Nuns (They're fucking bondage nuns alright... Hot.) should not be attacking 47 OUTSIDE OF A MOTEL!!!!!

I did say however.

"Bondage nuns would be more appropriate in a German or Russian strip club."

Understand? No? Not clear enough?

FINE! I also said:

"It's clearly put there for titillation. Which would be fine, but at least make it contextually appropriate! Put them in club, or a brothel, or make them some sort of pervert's live-in house guards/maids."

It was clear that I was arguing that it didn't make sense. Why they fuck would you claim otherwise? Run out of arguments so you have to make up false claims of prudishness? Grasping at strawmen? (Oh, and I fucking hate claims of "straw-manning" . It's a debating claim made by people with weak arguments when they know they've argued themselves into a corner. But you used it first so fuck you.)

So no. I never " ENDLESSLY asserted".."that they could never fit in the Hitman universe."

Got it straight?

You may be joking but that would be perfect, that IS Hitman. Clowns, with machine guns, brilliant.

We clearly disagree. There should be ridiculous things in the Hitmanverse but they should be in the shadows. Much like 47 is in the shadows.

However if 47 had to go to a fair-ground (another one) to kill a guy, and his guards and maybe even the guy himself were clowns.... That'd be rad. Why not? Great.

But not clowns trying to kill 47 at a motel. That'd be like a bunch of bondage-nuns(Ha!) doing it. Dumb. Really dumb. Starved of oxygen at birth and pushing crayons up your nose dumb. Why would you think that was a good idea?

You clearly just don't get Hitman and seem to think it should be just like Call of Duty for gawd sake.

No. I think it should be Hitman and involve sneaky stealth shit, some exaggerated stereotypes, and weird shit when you look in the dark corners.

Not groups of Bondage(You know what I'm talking about. Eat shit and die.)-Assassin-Nuns in broad daylight. There is a line between stereotype and parody. This goes beyond parody and into farce.

But you clearly are not discerning enough to grasp the difference.

So tired of everyone throwing a tantrum over the whole gender shit... Of the white knights who doesn't give a crap really, but thinks it will give them ladies. And just about everyone taking everything too damn seriously, chill-the-fuck-out.

Treblaine:
Yes, Ninja Assassin palaces would be ridiculously implausible, equally sending a troop of female assassins dressed as sexy nuns.

Hey look at this!!!

http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/63-year-old-engineer-japans-last-ninja

Actual ninja. Dressed in black.

Who would of thunk it?

Now produce the pictures of female assassins dressed in "Nun Themed Gothic Fetishwear" (Fucking bondage nuns. GTFO) . Oh wait, you can't, because that's not a real thing.

Anyone who actually complained about that trailer didn't play the previous hitman games, or was just trying to shake up some page hits.

Implausible as bondage outfitted nuns wielding assault rifles and bazookas may be, it fits right in with what hitman is about.

acosn:
Anyone who actually complained about that trailer didn't play the previous hitman games, or was just trying to shake up some page hits.

Implausible as bondage outfitted nuns wielding assault rifles and bazookas may be, it fits right in with what hitman is about.

Yeah, nice assumptions there, bro. If anything, I'd have to say your familiarity with the series is somewhat lacking.

Yeah, I sure hope IO changes this part of the game...

...there should be some half-naked strippers fighting on 47's side!

TAdamson:

Treblaine:
Yes, Ninja Assassin palaces would be ridiculously implausible, equally sending a troop of female assassins dressed as sexy nuns.

Hey look at this!!!

http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/63-year-old-engineer-japans-last-ninja

Actual ninja. Dressed in black.

Who would of thunk it?

Now produce the pictures of female assassins dressed in "Nun Themed Gothic Fetishwear" (Fucking bondage nuns. GTFO) . Oh wait, you can't, because that's not a real thing.

That's a bloody theme park. Not an actual hangout for real murderous assassins.

It's as relevant as me posting NSFW pics from a sex-club where a nun theme is present.

Treblaine:

TAdamson:

Treblaine:
Yes, Ninja Assassin palaces would be ridiculously implausible, equally sending a troop of female assassins dressed as sexy nuns.

Hey look at this!!!

http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/63-year-old-engineer-japans-last-ninja

Actual ninja. Dressed in black.

Who would of thunk it?

Now produce the pictures of female assassins dressed in "Nun Themed Gothic Fetishwear" (Fucking bondage nuns. GTFO) . Oh wait, you can't, because that's not a real thing.

That's a bloody theme park. Not an actual hangout for real murderous assassins.

It's as relevant as me posting NSFW pics from a sex-club where a nun theme is present.

Hey that was one of your points. Nun themed sex clubs. And the ninjas weren't assassins were they? They were guards.

Sorry, you lose.

KeyMaster45:
I still think the whole thing was overblown, and the only reason it seemed to rustle feathers was because it was a guy fighting women, 'scuse me, scantily clad women. (who mind you had just tried to murder the shit out of him) Leaves me wondering if the reaction would have been the same had the devs used Rambo esque men disguised as a bunch of monks.

Still it's hard to actually care, but something about the logic for why we should be upset just nags at me as rather flawed.

I think you and I are in the same boat KeyMaster, I just don't see why everyone is throwing such a hissy fit over this trailer. My gods, you think they actually killed someone in it for kicks.

But yeah, if it was just Agent 47 killing male killers dressed as monks no one would bat a eye at it.

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

TAdamson:

Hey look at this!!!

http://www.afp.com/en/news/topstories/63-year-old-engineer-japans-last-ninja

Actual ninja. Dressed in black.

Who would of thunk it?

Now produce the pictures of female assassins dressed in "Nun Themed Gothic Fetishwear" (Fucking bondage nuns. GTFO) . Oh wait, you can't, because that's not a real thing.

That's a bloody theme park. Not an actual hangout for real murderous assassins.

It's as relevant as me posting NSFW pics from a sex-club where a nun theme is present.

Hey that was one of your points. Nun themed sex clubs. And the ninjas weren't assassins were they? They were guards.

Sorry, you lose.

What?!? Your logic is backward.

My argument is that in the REAL WORLD trained killers dress as neither sexy nuns nor black-robed ninjas, in the real world people only dress like that as performers in entertainment. But Hitman is not the real world it is a video game and unlike call of duty it has ridiculous things like black clad ninja palaces... and Sexy Nun-themed assassins are also not out of place in that universe.

Your logic is just: "huh! Point repeated! I declare victory! Yay me!"

dalek sec:

KeyMaster45:
I still think the whole thing was overblown, and the only reason it seemed to rustle feathers was because it was a guy fighting women, 'scuse me, scantily clad women. (who mind you had just tried to murder the shit out of him) Leaves me wondering if the reaction would have been the same had the devs used Rambo esque men disguised as a bunch of monks.

Still it's hard to actually care, but something about the logic for why we should be upset just nags at me as rather flawed.

I think you and I are in the same boat KeyMaster, I just don't see why everyone is throwing such a hissy fit over this trailer. My gods, you think they actually killed someone in it for kicks.

But yeah, if it was just Agent 47 killing male killers dressed as monks no one would bat a eye at it.

Sexy monks, don't forget:

Treblaine:

TAdamson:

Treblaine:

That's a bloody theme park. Not an actual hangout for real murderous assassins.

It's as relevant as me posting NSFW pics from a sex-club where a nun theme is present.

Hey that was one of your points. Nun themed sex clubs. And the ninjas weren't assassins were they? They were guards.

Sorry, you lose.

What?!? Your logic is backward.

My argument is that in the REAL WORLD trained killers dress as neither sexy nuns nor black-robed ninjas, in the real world people only dress like that as performers in entertainment. But Hitman is not the real world it is a video game and unlike call of duty it has ridiculous things like black clad ninja palaces... and Sexy Nun-themed assassins are also not out of place in that universe.

Your logic is just: "huh! Point repeated! I declare victory! Yay me!"

So in the real world guards can't dress as ninjas for entertainment huh? Seems to me that would be a legitimate reason for people to dress their guards as ninjas at a Japanese palace, or as birds at a carnival, or gimp suits in an industrial nightclub.

But your point is "look at these crazy costumes these people are wearing in private, therefore it's just s likely that they'd wear even crazier costumes in public"

You logic isn't backward. It's completely non-sequential.

And you repeat that over and over again, along with completely baseless and juvenile accusations of prudishness and having not played the game (Along with some breathtaking pedantry), despite how ridiculous that is.

So yes, I declare victory.

dalek sec:

KeyMaster45:
I still think the whole thing was overblown, and the only reason it seemed to rustle feathers was because it was a guy fighting women, 'scuse me, scantily clad women. (who mind you had just tried to murder the shit out of him) Leaves me wondering if the reaction would have been the same had the devs used Rambo esque men disguised as a bunch of monks.

Still it's hard to actually care, but something about the logic for why we should be upset just nags at me as rather flawed.

I think you and I are in the same boat KeyMaster, I just don't see why everyone is throwing such a hissy fit over this trailer. My gods, you think they actually killed someone in it for kicks.

But yeah, if it was just Agent 47 killing male killers dressed as monks no one would bat a eye at it.

I have more of a problem with it not contextually making sense. Most of the other crazy costumes in Hitman are location specific but here it just seems incongruous. And I'd have that problem if the killers were dressed as monks as well.

This does also have added the problem that it was also blatant pandering. I don't have a problem with adversaries dressed like this but do have to ask what justification the universe's fiction has to give for it.

Are they on their way to a Gothic Nightclub and just happen to stop off to kill 47 before they hit the bar?

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