Judge Denies Megaupload's Motion to Dismiss

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Judge Denies Megaupload's Motion to Dismiss

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A judge has ruled that it's still possible for the U.S. government to establish jurisdiction over Megaupload.

Back in May, lawyers for Kim Dotcom's beleaguered Megaupload filed a motion seeking dismissal of the U.S. government's case against the company, claiming that the government lacked jurisdiction over the company because it had not properly and legally served a summons against it. A technicality in Rule 4 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, they argued, meant that the U.S. not only failed to properly serve Megaupload, but could not legally do so.

But U.S. District Judge Liam O'Grady has denied the motion, declaring that "Rule 4 does not require a result so extreme as dismissal," and that even if it was applied as narrowly as Megaupload lawyers would like, a proper service of summons remains possible.

"It is doubtful that Congress would stamp with approval a procedural rule permitting a foreign corporate defendant to intentionally violate the laws of this country, yet evade the jurisdiction of the United States' courts by purposefully failing to establish an address here," O'Grady wrote in his ruling. "But even assuming arguendo that the mailing provision is necessary to effect service, the Court cannot find to a legal and factual certainty that the United States will be unable to serve the corporate defendant properly."

The judge ruled that when a court "pierces the corporate veil, the legal distinction between a corporation and its alter ego is eliminated." If the government can prove that one of the individually-named defendants in the case is an alter ego of Megaupload, then serving a summons to that individual once he is extradited would be sufficient to establish jurisdiction.

"The Court acknowledges that the individual Defendants may never be extradited," the judge noted. "Be that as it may, the present motion is based on the argument that the government could never serve Megaupload. Because the alter ego analysis provides a means by which it may be possible to serve the Corporate defendant, it is appropriate to deny Defendant's motion without prejudice."

The ruling "leaves open the possibility for future motions and briefing as to whether the Defendant has been denied due process by this delay" and also suggests that the indictment could be temporarily dismissed, until Megaupload can be properly served. That led to an angry Twitter response from Dotcom, who wrote, "US judge denies to permanently dismiss Megaupload case. Suggests we could have asked for temporary dismissal. But we did ask for that. Wow?!" and added, "US Gov now has jurisdiction over any company worldwide using US Internet infrastructure (incl. domains)? Just extradite & serve on arrival."

Source: Scribd, via TorrentFreak

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So, in layman's terms, Megaupload now has a case to answer and can't get out of it? O_o'

What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

So... a US judge says that the US behaved properly... Had they NOT gone to a US court then this would most likely be a different story. The international court of justice exists for a REASON!

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Just wait until your identity is stolen, you know who it is, but nothing can be done because they live in (random country).

You lose thousands of dollars and you will never see them brought too justice, just because they do not live here.

Another topic - If I make a website that is designed too break the law, but I set it up in a country that does not extradite to the US, then I can do whatever the heck I like.

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

Gilhelmi:

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Just wait until your identity is stolen, you know who it is, but nothing can be done because they live in (random country).

You lose thousands of dollars and you will never see them brought too justice, just because they do not live here.

Another topic - If I make a website that is designed too break the law, but I set it up in a country that does not extradite to the US, then I can do whatever the heck I like.

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

There are international courts for that and as far as I know none of which were used here. Furthermore several actions taken by several groups involved in this case outright broke the law in several regards.

Gilhelmi:

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Just wait until your identity is stolen, you know who it is, but nothing can be done because they live in (random country).

You lose thousands of dollars and you will never see them brought too justice, just because they do not live here.

Another topic - If I make a website that is designed too break the law, but I set it up in a country that does not extradite to the US, then I can do whatever the heck I like.

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

I agree with some things and disagree with others but I will say this. Megaupload didn't actually steal anything they were simply holding it. It would be like if someone stole a dvd gave it to me and I was charged for stealing it.

I do agree people need to realize that illegally downloading is stealing no matter how you cut it.

That judge is retarded. I don't like to put judgement on law people that straightforward ussually, but his reasoning that US law spans the globe and therefore all companies must establish an adress in the US, or have failed any obligations is just, really, out of this world. He'd better have been drunk when he passed that judgement.

And the internet is a notorious minefield where jurisdiction of pretty much anyone is ussually lacking. That's pretty much the worldwide consensus. It's sad to see the US uses deranged judges that think their law system somehow expands to fill any void there might be.

It just means that as a company, it's better not to do business in the US and not store assets in the US, because you're liable to illegal seizure and bullshit charges, which you can't defend yourself against. In other words, private property and your rights aren't safe in the US, and therefore your company's assets are safer in other countries with an actual legal system.

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Well, after illegally seizing assets, money, committing several crimes in the form of hacking, sabotaging a company illegally resulting in millions of damages, and stealing the money of tens of thousands of Megaupload customers, thus committing several thousands accounts of theft, while the company doesn't operate in the US, the servers often aren't in the US, their customers may not be in the US, and US law is entirely unapplicable...

Yeah, you'd think a case would be pretty much dead, since they, you know, did every fucking thing wrong you can possibly do wrong. Well, short of summarily executing the accused by hanging him without a trial I guess.

Gilhelmi:

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Just wait until your identity is stolen, you know who it is, but nothing can be done because they live in (random country).

You lose thousands of dollars and you will never see them brought too justice, just because they do not live here.

Another topic - If I make a website that is designed too break the law, but I set it up in a country that does not extradite to the US, then I can do whatever the heck I like.

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

I cant wait till kids on the internet grow up and understand just because one makes a claim does not mean that it is applicable to everyone. I had over 100gb of personally created data that cannot be replaced that is being held hostage by the US government, despite legally paying for a service, and using it in a legal manner.

The number of people using MU for the same purposes dwarfs the number of those using it for nefarious purposes.

So it is beyond my fathoming why anyone would legitimately defend what has repeatedly been deemed an illegal action whenever put into the hands outside the US, but somehow in the US its viewed as Hunkey Dorey.

If the US wanted to do this in a legal and logical fashion, they would pursue US citizens utilizing the service for illegal actions. Not trying to impose jurisdiction on things it has no claim to in order to curb the actions of its own citizens. But noo, cant do that. You know why? The same reason steam, Sony, MS, Origin all want you to give up your right to class action law suit. Its easier to overwhelm when the numbers are vastly in your favor.

The US Legal system is beyond repair and need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

This is absolutely fucking legal nonsense.

Courts do not pierce the "corporate veil." The corporate veil is a euphemism for the personal indemnification the owners of corporate entities have against personal liability. If an owner of a corporate entity engages in behaviors that produces criminal wrongdoing or torts in the carrying on of the corporate entity, that individual is said to have "pierced the corporate veil." It is the wrongdoing of an owner, not a court, which may pierce the corporate veil.

The argument ought to be entirely about jurisdiction. Did Megaupload satisfy the conditions to be considered engaging in business in the United States such that a US court may prosecute the trial?

God knows the US already committed wrongdoing against Megaupload with the seizing of their *FOREIGN* assets, by compelling a corrupt New Zealand government to violate their own statutory law.

What a fucking mess. I am compelled to believe the judge hearing the case is deciding such matters entirely for reasons of politics than reasons concerning the proper carrying out of law.

Blablahb:
That judge is retarded. I don't like to put judgement on law people that straightforward ussually, but his reasoning that US law spans the globe and therefore all companies must establish an adress in the US, or have failed any obligations is just, really, out of this world. He'd better have been drunk when he passed that judgement.

And the internet is a notorious minefield where jurisdiction of pretty much anyone is ussually lacking. That's pretty much the worldwide consensus. It's sad to see the US uses deranged judges that think their law system somehow expands to fill any void there might be.

It just means that as a company, it's better not to do business in the US and not store assets in the US, because you're liable to illegal seizure and bullshit charges, which you can't defend yourself against. In other words, private property and your rights aren't safe in the US, and therefore your company's assets are safer in other countries with an actual legal system.

Saulkar:
What did you expect? They are not going to let this go, they are like children with no boundaries and a god complex believing that they have the ultimate authority to force their authority well outside of their jurisdiction. When they do not get their way they bite whatever in their delusions they feel has personally hurt them.

Well, after illegally seizing assets, money, committing several crimes in the form of hacking, sabotaging a company illegally resulting in millions of damages, and stealing the money of tens of thousands of Megaupload customers, thus committing several thousands accounts of theft, while the company doesn't operate in the US, the servers often aren't in the US, their customers may not be in the US, and US law is entirely unapplicable...

Yeah, you'd think a case would be pretty much dead, since they, you know, did every fucking thing wrong you can possibly do wrong. Well, short of summarily executing the accused by hanging him without a trial I guess.

Give it a month or so and whoops...

Sometimes I'm looking forward to the collapse of the US within a decade.

doggie015:
So... a US judge says that the US behaved properly... Had they NOT gone to a US court then this would most likely be a different story. The international court of justice exists for a REASON!

My boss occasionally asks us for self-evaluations on the job we're doing. I'm always sure to remind him that I am the company's most valuable and dedicated employee.

Utter bullshit. I agree with Dotcom: The US has pretty much declared "su casa es mi casa" on the developed world and nobody seems to want to contradict them.

Scars Unseen:
Utter bullshit. I agree with Dotcom: The US has pretty much declared "su casa es mi casa" on the developed world and nobody seems to want to contradict them.

Problem is, when they ARE contradicted, they... well, they don't take it very well. And, since they're the biggest kid in the sandbox, when they throw a tantrum, everyone else feels it. It's the whole 'sleeping with an elephant' thing.

But even assuming arguendo that the mailing provision is necessary to effect service, the Court cannot find to a legal and factual certainty that the United States will be unable to serve the corporate defendant properly.

Except for the fact that they DIDN'T.

I'll believe that the United States has jurisdiction over international corporate holdings when the government starts taxing them.

viranimus:

Gilhelmi:
snips

I cant wait till kids on the internet grow up and understand just because one makes a claim does not mean that it is applicable to everyone. I had over 100gb of personally created data that cannot be replaced that is being held hostage by the US government, despite legally paying for a service, and using it in a legal manner.

The number of people using MU for the same purposes dwarfs the number of those using it for nefarious purposes.

So it is beyond my fathoming why anyone would legitimately defend what has repeatedly been deemed an illegal action whenever put into the hands outside the US, but somehow in the US its viewed as Hunkey Dorey.

If the US wanted to do this in a legal and logical fashion, they would pursue US citizens utilizing the service for illegal actions. Not trying to impose jurisdiction on things it has no claim to in order to curb the actions of its own citizens. But noo, cant do that. You know why? The same reason steam, Sony, MS, Origin all want you to give up your right to class action law suit. Its easier to overwhelm when the numbers are vastly in your favor.

The US Legal system is beyond repair and need to be rebuilt from the ground up.

With you, I will sympathize. I know there are exceptions here, and your data is some of it. I also feel bad for the server farm that stores the data, they are losing hundreds of thousands (if not millions) because they can not collect rent, no one is allowing the data to be destroyed, and they still have to keep the system running.

As too the rest, Some days I think the whole of the Republic (yes, the US is a Republic) needs a major overhaul.

Do you people fail to understand that the reason that MU is in this shit is because of racketeering and money laundering? Piracy is just tacked onto the list because it can be, but it's just a secondary issue here

Gilhelmi:

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

No it's more like saying going to the car dealer and saying "I don't wanna pay your outrageously marked up prices, so I'm gonna stare at this car for a second, and make another one magically appear at my house. kthxbye" There is no stealing involved. It is copying, and thus if reproduced still violates copyright laws, but it's not stealing.

[That Tone of Voice (you know the one)]

I cannot fathom why anyone in this thread would be upset. This is perhaps the best development for the United States of America. For example General Motors can't sell cars to save its life, therefor arrest the CEOs of Toyota. It works perfectly and benefits the people who matter most.

[/that tone of voice (you know the one)]

FFS...this entire case has turned into such a clusterfuck.

Louzerman102:
[That Tone of Voice (you know the one)]

I cannot fathom why anyone in this thread would be upset. This is perhaps the best development for the United States of America. For example General Motors can't sell cars to save its life, therefor arrest the CEOs of Toyota. It works perfectly and benefits the people who matter most.

[/that tone of voice (you know the one)]

Is it wrong that I read that in Tony Stark's voice?

ResonanceSD:
So, in layman's terms, Megaupload now has a case to answer and can't get out of it? O_o'

If, and only if, the case ever reaches a US court, which at the moment looks doubtful. New Zealand's courts are having a long, hard look at the legality of the extradition, and seem ever more likely to return a "aw, hell no!" verdict.

Which is not to say that this verdict isn't downright retarded, as it states that for companies it is not even required to be in US jurisdiction for them to be liable under US law. Under the same logic Sealand could ban having a website, and charge everyone whose website is accessible from Sealand.

Gilhelmi:

Third topic - I can not wait for the day when the internet grows up and realizes that stealing is all the time, does not matter if you were not going to buy it anyway, or that the quality is poor. It would be like if I went too your house stole your car that you were selling saying "Look, your car is a piece of junk. I am not paying for it." Stupid, thieving, idiots.

I am getting rather tired of these direct comparisons between piracy and stealing - they simply are not the same thing. When you steal an object, the owner is caused economic damage equal to the value of said object, as he is no longer able to use or sell it.
However, when you pirate it, the owner still retains the object, but instead is caused economic damage equal to the reduction in sales revenue.

Stealing and piracy would only be equal if every pirated copy is a lost sale - a ridiculous assumption. So far research indicates that for every thousand pirated copies, there is one lost sale.

So if you would want to keep it simple, you could say that pirating software is equal to stealing 0.1% of its value, or $0,06 per full-priced game.
You still cause the owner economic damage, but it's good to keep things in perspective.

So are we going to start suing Saudi Arabian Corporations for prejudice and hate crimes? Cause this ruling basically means the US has control over the world.

Love to hear New Zeland's response to this.

So, did everyone forget the whole money laundering and racketeering thing that was the real issue, until the MPAA and RIAA got involved? You know, the case that was being built up for about a year and a half? No, okay, standard status-quo here in that Law Enforcement is always wrong and that the US is trying to take over the world.

doggie015:
So... a US judge says that the US behaved properly... Had they NOT gone to a US court then this would most likely be a different story. The international court of justice exists for a REASON!

I am a Jingo american if there ever was one, I laugh at most of the ignorant eurokids on these forums a lot, and even I think this was pretty fucked up.

kiri2tsubasa:
So, did everyone forget the whole money laundering and racketeering thing that was the real issue, until the MPAA and RIAA got involved? You know, the case that was being built up for about a year and a half? No, okay, standard status-quo here in that Law Enforcement is always wrong and that the US is trying to take over the world.

SO because they are ever so eager to enforce those laws, and jump to suck the dick of the MPAA and RIAA, they broke other laws to bring said lawbreaker to 'justice.'

at that point I roll my eyes and say all bets are off as they are in a pissing match with him to who can break the most blatant laws.

kiri2tsubasa:
So, did everyone forget the whole money laundering and racketeering thing that was the real issue, until the MPAA and RIAA got involved? You know, the case that was being built up for about a year and a half? No, okay, standard status-quo here in that Law Enforcement is always wrong and that the US is trying to take over the world.

Yeah, so where's the proof of all that?

It's all bullshit made up by the MAFIAA.

doggie015:

Louzerman102:
[That Tone of Voice (you know the one)]

I cannot fathom why anyone in this thread would be upset. This is perhaps the best development for the United States of America. For example General Motors can't sell cars to save its life, therefor arrest the CEOs of Toyota. It works perfectly and benefits the people who matter most.

[/that tone of voice (you know the one)]

Is it wrong that I read that in Tony Stark's voice?

I originally meant sarcasm, then halfway into writing it became Christopher Walken's voice.

aba1:
It would be like if someone stole a dvd gave it to me and I was charged for stealing it.

I don't know how the law works in Canada, but in the US we actually do have a law/crime for possession of stolen property, just wanted to point that out.

Edit: Actually you guys have it too.
Possession of property obtained by crime (s. 354)
Trafficking in property obtained by crime (ss. 355.2)
Possession of property obtained by crime for the purposes of trafficking (ss. 355.4)

What?

OJ Simpson was acquitted because one person said something wrong but MU is still on the hook even though the authorities were proven to ignore due process and the prosecutors fight to not reveal evidence? I am so shocked that the US Legal system would ignore established rules to get the outcome it wants that I think I'll have a heart attack and die now.

Hurrblah.

whatever the charges were, they screwed up so badly that the accountability of this trial being a failure rests with the people whose responsibility was to oversee this thing fairly in the first place

as it is right now they are now likely liable for damages caused by their brash actions regardless of what the case's outcome would have been

Rednog:

aba1:
It would be like if someone stole a dvd gave it to me and I was charged for stealing it.

I don't know how the law works in Canada, but in the US we actually do have a law/crime for possession of stolen property, just wanted to point that out.

Edit: Actually you guys have it too.
Possession of property obtained by crime (s. 354)
Trafficking in property obtained by crime (ss. 355.2)
Possession of property obtained by crime for the purposes of trafficking (ss. 355.4)

So we do well said my friend!

Reaper195:
FFS...this entire case has turned into such a clusterfuck.

Turned? From the first day it was all wrong.

Illegal search and seizure of the mansion.
GCSB snooping on communications illegally prior to the raid.
USA removing evidence from the country against specific notices from a judge not to do so.
And at one point the DOJ told the hosting company to delete all the data.

there's probably more including the hand waiving trying to get legitimate users to sue MU or the hosting company about their data loss. Although apparently they are going to have a chance in court but I doubt they'll get very far.

Hey America. This is why most of the world hates you right now and why you would be the most hated country on the internet if your citizens didn't provide so much for it.

Andy Chalk:

"It is doubtful that Congress would stamp with approval a procedural rule permitting a foreign corporate defendant to intentionally violate the laws of this country, yet evade the jurisdiction of the United States' courts by purposefully failing to establish an address here," O'Grady wrote in his ruling.

Except those laws weren't broken in the US. This has to be the worst excuse I've ever heard.

I didn't realize laws could be based on "could haves." "I shot the guy cause he could have had a gun. I didn't need to see the gun, I just needed to think he might possibly." - Every police officer for the rest of time now.

Rednog:

aba1:
It would be like if someone stole a dvd gave it to me and I was charged for stealing it.

I don't know how the law works in Canada, but in the US we actually do have a law/crime for possession of stolen property, just wanted to point that out.

Edit: Actually you guys have it too.
Possession of property obtained by crime (s. 354)
Trafficking in property obtained by crime (ss. 355.2)
Possession of property obtained by crime for the purposes of trafficking (ss. 355.4)

I have a sneaking suspicion that you'll find laws like this most anywhere: there'd be a gaping hole in any legal system (like legal systems need more holes) otherwise. But what he was saying is that it would be like if someone handed him a stolen DVD, and he was charged with the theft itself, not the possession.

I'll admit, I don't know a lot about this case, but from what I've been able to extricate from the articles I've read, the piracy charges being leveled against MU seem more akin to charging them with the actual theft of copyrighted material, rather than just possessing it. Regardless of how you feel, it would be difficult to argue convincingly that, because they were holding copyright material, MU were actually the ones who stole it.

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