Hackers Release PlayStation 3 "LV0 Decryption Keys"

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I say this as I listen to my music collection being streamed from my homebrew enabled Wii to my stereo system: welcome, PS3 owning homebrewers. It's about time you made it.

ResonanceSD:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

people pay out the ass for convenience
just look at steam in Russia for an example

direkiller:

ResonanceSD:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

people pay out the ass for convenience
just look at steam in Russia for an example

Again, the competition is a free digital download.

What exactly is the point you're making?

Crono1973:
I do think (and I don't want to argue this with anyone) that no one last gen even considered that they didn't own the games they bought. People should probably look back and figure out why they feel that way now. Figure out when and how they have been manipulated to give up ownership of games and hardware.

I understand your stance, all I'm saying is that there's no arguing against my point: when you purchase a PS3, it comes with a TOS that you have to agree to. If you don't agree to it, "technically" you shouldn't be playing it. If you do agree to it, then "technically" you agree not to mess with the PS3. Just because you're now the proud owner of a PS3 that is indeed all yours does not suddenly nullify the TOS contract that you agreed to when you bought it.

Crono1973:

If breaking the TOS is a crime, I honestly don't give a shit.

I just want to point this little tid bit out.

"If". I pray your name does not imply your birth date, because if you've managed 39 years without being certain of the legality of a TOS, I question your intellect.
The TOS itself has more to do with your agreement on not altering their software than screwing with the hardware(which has its own legal problems, I won't get into), which you never actually own. You pretty much rent it permanently, on the condition you do not screw with it. Software goes under the idea of an intellectual property, something without a physical property, which is still copyrighted.

By hacking it, you are pretty much busting into someone's house and taking their crap.

The thing you're not understanding is that you never, under any circumstances, own the software. On top of that, you have given your word you will not hack it by clicking "I Agree" to a TOS. Hacking doesn't only make you a thief, it makes you a liar.

RJ 17:

Crono1973:
Wow, you are getting worked up for nothing. You know is true, people hack because they enjoy the challenge. All that other bullshit you just wrote has nothing to do with what I said.

Oh, BTW, if it is a crime to tinker with your own property...it shouldn't be.

Oh just to be clear, I'm not worked up. Indeed, I really don't care as it has no effect on me whatsoever. However, you did equate the challenge of hacking to the challenge of a game, and I was simply showing the point that one is a crime and the other one isn't.

Oh, BTW, if you agree to a TOS saying that you won't tinker with the item that you purchased and you do anyway, you're committing a crime, if not at the very least guilty of breach of contract.

Honestly, at this point I'm just "arguing" for the sake of argument. Because I like the challenge! :D

:P

TOS, especially in this case, are not legally binding, because you can buy a PS3 without ever being presented the TOS, thus making it invalid.

BernardoOne:

RJ 17:

Crono1973:
Wow, you are getting worked up for nothing. You know is true, people hack because they enjoy the challenge. All that other bullshit you just wrote has nothing to do with what I said.

Oh, BTW, if it is a crime to tinker with your own property...it shouldn't be.

Oh just to be clear, I'm not worked up. Indeed, I really don't care as it has no effect on me whatsoever. However, you did equate the challenge of hacking to the challenge of a game, and I was simply showing the point that one is a crime and the other one isn't.

Oh, BTW, if you agree to a TOS saying that you won't tinker with the item that you purchased and you do anyway, you're committing a crime, if not at the very least guilty of breach of contract.

Honestly, at this point I'm just "arguing" for the sake of argument. Because I like the challenge! :D

:P

TOS, especially in this case, are not legally binding, because you can buy a PS3 without ever being presented the TOS, thus making it invalid.

Now this I will give you since I don't own a PS3 and thus don't know the format. All I know is that the 360 has a TOS pop up to which you have to click "I Agree", which equates to an electronic signature which is indeed legally binding.

If the PS3 does not have such a TOS pop-up as soon as you turn it on for the first time, then by all means: hack it to pieces.

ikillu87:

Crono1973:

If breaking the TOS is a crime, I honestly don't give a shit.

I just want to point this little tid bit out.

"If". I pray your name does not imply your birth date, because if you've managed 39 years without being certain of the legality of a TOS, I question your intellect.
The TOS itself has more to do with your agreement on not altering their software than screwing with the hardware(which has its own legal problems, I won't get into), which you never actually own. You pretty much rent it permanently, on the condition you do not screw with it. Software goes under the idea of an intellectual property, something without a physical property, which is still copyrighted.

By hacking it, you are pretty much busting into someone's house and taking their crap.

The thing you're not understanding is that you never, under any circumstances, own the software. On top of that, you have given your word you will not by clicking "I Agree" to a TOS. Hacking doesn't only make you a thief, it makes you a liar.

Permanently renting??? Holy shit, LOL!

Couldn't resist!

RJ 17:

BernardoOne:

RJ 17:
Oh just to be clear, I'm not worked up. Indeed, I really don't care as it has no effect on me whatsoever. However, you did equate the challenge of hacking to the challenge of a game, and I was simply showing the point that one is a crime and the other one isn't.

Oh, BTW, if you agree to a TOS saying that you won't tinker with the item that you purchased and you do anyway, you're committing a crime, if not at the very least guilty of breach of contract.

Honestly, at this point I'm just "arguing" for the sake of argument. Because I like the challenge! :D

:P

TOS, especially in this case, are not legally binding, because you can buy a PS3 without ever being presented the TOS, thus making it invalid.

Now this I will give you since I don't own a PS3 and thus don't know the format. All I know is that the 360 has a TOS pop up to which you have to click "I Agree", which equates to an electronic signature which is indeed legally binding.

If the PS3 does not have such a TOS pop-up as soon as you turn it on for the first time, then by all means: hack it to pieces.

It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

BernardoOne:
It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

Crono1973:

ikillu87:

Crono1973:

If breaking the TOS is a crime, I honestly don't give a shit.

I just want to point this little tid bit out.

"If". I pray your name does not imply your birth date, because if you've managed 39 years without being certain of the legality of a TOS, I question your intellect.
The TOS itself has more to do with your agreement on not altering their software than screwing with the hardware(which has its own legal problems, I won't get into), which you never actually own. You pretty much rent it permanently, on the condition you do not screw with it. Software goes under the idea of an intellectual property, something without a physical property, which is still copyrighted.

By hacking it, you are pretty much busting into someone's house and taking their crap.

The thing you're not understanding is that you never, under any circumstances, own the software. On top of that, you have given your word you will not by clicking "I Agree" to a TOS. Hacking doesn't only make you a thief, it makes you a liar.

Permanently renting??? Holy shit, LOL!

Couldn't resist!

Yet you cannot argue it. We can see this in several legal battles, easily seen on this very website involving Steam. It was only a few months ago that Steam shut down one man's account over giving out Steam games to friends as presents. They locked the games he had already purchased I believe.

How could they do this? Because he did not own the games. He paid money, and was allowed to play them on a permanent basis, on the sole condition he follow the TOS.

One can buy a chair. You can do whatever you want to that chair, carve it up into new shapes, whatever. You never agreed to a TOS.

Software, on the other hand, is a property you never physically own. It is an idea, an idea you agreed not to screw with.

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

ResonanceSD:

direkiller:

ResonanceSD:

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

people pay out the ass for convenience
just look at steam in Russia for an example

Again, the competition is a free digital download.

What exactly is the point you're making?

My point is real market data shows people will pay when there are better perks attached to the normal game and buying the game is simply easier then pirating.

because if there is one thing you can count on it's peoples ability to be lazy

RJ 17:

BernardoOne:
It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

The answer is TOS's are only legally binding in the US, and even there the courts are mixed on whether or not they apply. In the rest of the civilized world, where people aren't quite ruled by Blade Runner-esque megacorporations just yet, EULAs are almost totally worthless, because they're bullshit and the law actually recognizes it. In the US, they aren't recognized as bullshit yet because the judges are as old as dirt and are easy to convince that old laws don't apply to new technology because "ooh, look at the shiny!"

Edit: More to the point, EULAs, and even more to the point, "clickwrap" EULAs. That's why the TOS on Steam actually holds some weight; you agree to it on the website before completing your purchase. With boxed software, you never even see it until you've completed your purchase, gotten the thing home and opened, and tried to install it. It's additional terms being added on to an already completed sale.

The laws against hacking devices vary from country to country. In Denmark it's perfectly legal to hack the bejesus out of your owned devices. It's also legal to rip DVDs, BluRays and remove DRM from games.

ikillu87:

Crono1973:

ikillu87:

I just want to point this little tid bit out.

"If". I pray your name does not imply your birth date, because if you've managed 39 years without being certain of the legality of a TOS, I question your intellect.
The TOS itself has more to do with your agreement on not altering their software than screwing with the hardware(which has its own legal problems, I won't get into), which you never actually own. You pretty much rent it permanently, on the condition you do not screw with it. Software goes under the idea of an intellectual property, something without a physical property, which is still copyrighted.

By hacking it, you are pretty much busting into someone's house and taking their crap.

The thing you're not understanding is that you never, under any circumstances, own the software. On top of that, you have given your word you will not by clicking "I Agree" to a TOS. Hacking doesn't only make you a thief, it makes you a liar.

Permanently renting??? Holy shit, LOL!

Couldn't resist!

Yet you cannot argue it. We can see this in several legal battles, easily seen on this very website involving Steam. It was only a few months ago that Steam shut down one man's account over giving out Steam games to friends as presents. They locked the games he had already purchased I believe.

How could they do this? Because he did not own the games. He paid money, and was allowed to play them on a permanent basis, on the sole condition he follow the TOS.

One can buy a chair. You can do whatever you want to that chair, carve it up into new shapes, whatever. You never agreed to a TOS.

Software, on the other hand, is a property you never physically own. It is an idea, an idea you agreed not to screw with.

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Oh for fuck sake.

Physical games you own, no question about it. Digital games, like Steam, are still in the gray area but I believe Europe has ruled that you can resell those games which is one of the perks of ownership. That will happen here too, eventually.

Hardware is the same way, you own it and can do with it as you please as long as your doings don't affect anyone else. Hack your console but don't use it as a weapon on PSN and don't tell the world how to hack theirs, for example. The only thing Sony can do to you for hacking your own console is to refuse to honor the warranty.

TOS =/= law. Ok, I am done. We aren't going to change each others minds and I don't want to get worked up over a debate that I have had too many times before.

Owyn_Merrilin:

RJ 17:

BernardoOne:
It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

The answer is TOS's are only legally binding in the US, and even there the courts are mixed on whether or not they apply. In the rest of the civilized world, where people aren't quite ruled by Blade Runner-esque megacorporations just yet, EULAs are almost totally worthless, because they're bullshit and the law actually recognizes it. In the US, they aren't recognized as bullshit yet because the judges are as old as dirt and are easy to convince that old laws don't apply to new technology because "ooh, look at the shiny!"

Well if TOS's aren't worth a damn in other countries, how come places like Germany ban certain things due to the way the TOS is written? Wasn't Diablo III banned from another country due to it's TOS?

You've still failed to prove that TOS's aren't legally binding. All you've said is that they might not be legally binding in some places, but that doesn't change the fact that in other places they are legally binding.

Hmm, the only issue I see here is them releasing it publically. However if it really is as they say, that someone was planning to try and use this information to turn a profit, I can actually sympathize with the original hackers as, in that situation, there aren't a whole lot of other options.

RJ 17:

BernardoOne:
It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

Well, in my country, TOS are not legally binding. Really, really far from it. And I believe that even in US it is not a certain matter( for example, jalbreaking ipods,iphones and all that its legal, even though its againts the TOS)

RJ 17:

Owyn_Merrilin:

RJ 17:
Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

The answer is TOS's are only legally binding in the US, and even there the courts are mixed on whether or not they apply. In the rest of the civilized world, where people aren't quite ruled by Blade Runner-esque megacorporations just yet, EULAs are almost totally worthless, because they're bullshit and the law actually recognizes it. In the US, they aren't recognized as bullshit yet because the judges are as old as dirt and are easy to convince that old laws don't apply to new technology because "ooh, look at the shiny!"

Well if TOS's aren't worth a damn in other countries, how come places like Germany ban certain things due to the way the TOS is written? Wasn't Diablo III banned from another country due to it's TOS?

You've still failed to prove that TOS's aren't legally binding. All you've said is that they might not be legally binding in some places, but that doesn't change the fact that in other places they are legally binding.

See my edit. It's because it's a contract that is added after the contract of sale is already completed. What's more, most of these things have clauses which violate the right of first sale, so they're invalid on that count, too. The problem here is, the law may be clear, but the caselaw isn't, because judges are aging luddites.

As for Germany, as far as I know they didn't ban Diablo 3. What they /do/ frequently do is tell publishers to go pound sand because their EULAs are a pile of crap.

ikillu87:

Crono1973:

ikillu87:

I just want to point this little tid bit out.

"If". I pray your name does not imply your birth date, because if you've managed 39 years without being certain of the legality of a TOS, I question your intellect.
The TOS itself has more to do with your agreement on not altering their software than screwing with the hardware(which has its own legal problems, I won't get into), which you never actually own. You pretty much rent it permanently, on the condition you do not screw with it. Software goes under the idea of an intellectual property, something without a physical property, which is still copyrighted.

By hacking it, you are pretty much busting into someone's house and taking their crap.

The thing you're not understanding is that you never, under any circumstances, own the software. On top of that, you have given your word you will not by clicking "I Agree" to a TOS. Hacking doesn't only make you a thief, it makes you a liar.

Permanently renting??? Holy shit, LOL!

Couldn't resist!

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

Great, a new reason to treat their already battered paying customers because of piracy. At the end of the day though, pirates won't be the problem, it will be Sony freaking out about it and paying customers suffering. The only real resolution at this point would probably be to get some CFW for your system now.

Crono1973:

Oh for fuck sake.

Physical games you own, no question about it. Digital games, like Steam, are still in the gray area but I believe Europe has ruled that you can resell those games which is one of the perks of ownership. That will happen here too, eventually.

Hardware is the same way, you own it and can do with it as you please as long as your doings don't affect anyone else. Hack your console but don't use it as a weapon on PSN and don't tell the world how to hack theirs, for example. The only thing Sony can do to you for hacking your own console is to refuse to honor the warranty.

TOS =/= law. Ok, I am done. We aren't going to change each others minds and I don't want to get worked up over a debate that I have had too many times before.

You're right in one thing, TOS is not a law. It is however legally binding between you and the company that produces the product, and states that they have the right to take away the product if you break the contract.

Physical copies of games are indeed a gray area(if they're older than PS1/N64 era. There are a lot of locks on modern games, that if broken, count as infringing on international copyright law). Lets use a copy of Adobe Photoshop instead, as it has never fallen in a gray area. When first installed, you are asked to read and agree to a TOS. You are perfectly capable of not agreeing to the TOS, and they will then shut down instillation. Why? Because they own the software, and you have not agreed to play by their rules.

As to Modding a PS3... you can mod its physical components, sure(you just then lose any right to a legal claim if it breaks). When you start modding its software is when you start breaking the TOS, which is what I've been trying to explain. This article is about someone modding the software, breaking the TOS, and thus forfeiting their right to use the software.

BernardoOne:

ikillu87:

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

ikillu87:

BernardoOne:

ikillu87:

As to the fella claiming PS3's do not have a TOS upon first time boot. I am 99% sure you are wrong, unless it has been changed since 2007.

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

Owyn_Merrilin:
What they /do/ frequently do is tell publishers to go pound sand because their EULAs are a pile of crap.

Which is all well and good, however it does imply that were those EULA's to be allowed, they would be valid and binding. If they weren't valid and binding, then there'd be no reason to tell said publishers to pound sand due to their crappy EULA's.

BernardoOne:

RJ 17:

BernardoOne:
It doesnt have any TOS popping up. You only have to agree to a TOS when registering a PSN account. So legally the only thing I think they could do is ban you from PSN for breaking their TOS(and in that case they have the full right to do so)

Fair enough......but how does that show that TOS's aren't legally binding contracts, as you said in your previous statement? Obviously you're not bound to a TOS if you're never presented and therefor never agree to one. :P

All I've been saying is that a TOS is a legally binding contract and that there are consequences to breaking that contract.

Well, in my country, TOS are not legally binding. Really, really far from it. And I believe that even in US it is not a certain matter( for example, jalbreaking ipods,iphones and all that its legal, even though its againts the TOS)

Oh well. I honestly didn't even mean to derail the thread as much as I did. I was just waxing philosophically by asking the question "why do hackers hack?" and then felt it necessary to point out the flaw in another person's logic when they tried to answer that question. As such, to everyone that's been discussing this with me, I'm officially moving on from this topic.

Can't say it hasn't been fun, though. :3

RJ 17:

Owyn_Merrilin:
What they /do/ frequently do is tell publishers to go pound sand because their EULAs are a pile of crap.

Which is all well and good, however it does imply that were those EULA's to be allowed, they would be valid and binding. If they weren't valid and binding, then there'd be no reason to tell said publishers to pound sand due to their crappy EULA's.

At this point, I'm going to tell you what Chrono did: I've had this argument dozens of times already, and it's at the point where if I'm gonna have it again, it's gonna be in shorthand. You want the long form, feel welcome go looking through my posts. There should be plenty from around the time of the Geohot hack, although the whole consumer issues thing goes back to my very first post on the site, which was weighing in on a topic about the price of games.

It was good while it lasted. But nevermind, I still will buy the games I want. I see no use in piracy right now, after buying over 50 games on discs, and other 20 digital.

BernardoOne:

ikillu87:

BernardoOne:

Here, let me show you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RYKZmuos24

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

ikillu87:

BernardoOne:

ikillu87:

What was he scrolling through? The white block?

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

Maybe it depends on the region? PS3 from USA may require it I guess. I am in Europe and have a PS3 and did help a friend do the first setup of his and never saw any TOS to agree with.

At this rate, Sony should just hire these hackers as full-on firmware developers or something.

They obviously know their way around the hardware more than the actual developers.

BernardoOne:

ikillu87:

BernardoOne:

That was the "keyboard" input you use to write your user name I believe.

I find it odd. I used to set up people's entertainment systems back at Circuit City, and booting PS3's always involved scrolling through that giant block of text.

Maybe it depends on the region? PS3 from USA may require it I guess. I am in Europe and have a PS3 and did help a friend do the first setup of his and never saw any TOS to agree with.

That is entirely possible.

This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Forget trying to stop people from running homebrew and copies its not worth the effort. Now do try and stop them from hacking shit online.

CrossLOPER:
This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

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