Quiotu:
Meh... this doesn't affect us normal gamers. It just let's those hacking the PS3 to hack it even more. Which... I don't see the appeal of, but whatever floats your boat.

Well, I mean, it sort of does affect us. I mean, the constant, usually unannounced firmware updates Sony throws out are a direct attempt to counter potential pirates. The whole execrable proprietary PSV memory cards are a directed measure to counter potential pirates. Branching out a bit, intense, unfriendly DRM measures are a poorly implemented measure to counter potential prates.

What it comes down to is making gaming a little bit more inconvenient for those of us who play our games legally. That's why this is news. Sony is fighting a losing battle, and the best part is, its attempts to counter piracy are actually doing more harm to us then they're doing to the pirates. In the next console generation, Sony is going to be in deep trouble indeed if it doesn't focus on making its services better: friendlier, faster, more convenient, instead of focusing on the people - who, I'd like to point out, are really a very small minority - who are getting their products illegally.

DVS BSTrD:
You just can't win this fight Sony.

Yeah, one security team can't beat hundreds (maybe thousands) of hackers all working simultaneously.

ResonanceSD:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

You might have your priorities somewhat backwards here. Piracy is here to stay. The combined resources and creativity of everyone interested in hacking ensures that a "piracy-proof" game remains the stuff of legends.
Increasingly escalating your security not only spectacularly fails to keep the pirates at bay, it alienates your paying customers.

It simply comes down to either learning to adapt to people pirating your games, or going straight to the bankruptcy cliffs on a raft bathed in righteous flames.

Crono1973:
I do think (and I don't want to argue this with anyone) that no one last gen even considered that they didn't own the games they bought. People should probably look back and figure out why they feel that way now. Figure out when and how they have been manipulated to give up ownership of games and hardware.

I honestly think it's a combination of the second generation of gamers that have grown up with a notable lack of hard copies of their games, that the vast majority of the populace doesn't understand copyright/patent/IP law (especially not to the level needed to effectively argue that many EULAs are complete horseshit), a peculiar influx of apathy toward fighting for one's rights (that extends far into the rest of society/politics), and the natural tendency of humans to cling to concepts they're familiar with (in this case, trying to apply physical-goods business models to digital goods and markets.)

Crono1973:

ikillu87:

CrossLOPER:
This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

Wait, is it the current truth or is it the direction we are moving in? It can't be both because if we are already there then we can't be moving towards it.

Anyway, it isn't the truth and the only way it will be the truth is if consumers accept it and consumers should not accept it. How is it good for consumers to pay more for games and have less ownership of them?

Games going digital is irrelevant to ownership too, you can BUY something from Steam and still own it if consumers demand that. In other words, DD doesn't make ownership impossible. It just means that you own a product key which gives you access to the data. No different than owning a disc that gives you access to the data (ie, console games).

What I am really trying to say here is that the future is up to consumers. Smart consumers will say NO to this "you don't own your games" bullshit.

Its the truth with software that comes with the hardware.Its the truth with software from many companies for that matter. You have not refuted one thing I've said.

It is, however, not completely true of all games. Granted, it is still against the law to hack the restrictions a game comes with (this is why gamesharks/etc don't exist anymore, to which I am greatly saddened).

And once again, with Steam, breaking a TOS can indeed mean you are locked out of your account and from your games. You cannot freely give/sell them as you wish, as one does an actual disk. It is one of the reason Xbox/PS3 is so gung ho with digital distribution, in that there is no way for you to own a physical copy.

I may be rambling, I took a couple of Tylenol PM's, however, my points stand.

Now if only someone could hack the 3DS so as to remove the region lock. It's the only thing keeping me from getting it, virtually.

Tanis:
Hasn't the 360 and Wii been 'easily to hack', for like...ever now?

Never really saw NEAR the level of stories on TE when that was happening...

Maybe it's cause the PSP got so screwed by CFW?

Yes, PS3 is less popular by pirates because it is harder to hack and blueray discs cost A LOT. you can buy 10 dual layer dvds for the cost of 1 blueray disc.
then again this was only hard for people who didnt knew how ofc, but there are many such in the world.
what can i say, sony - 0, humanity - 1. locking users out of costum software should be criminal offence, but now its copyright.

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

The ignorance from you is just... astounding.

You know ArmA 2, prior to the Day Z mod, had 100 illegitimate connection attempts for every 1 legitimate? The Witcher 2, considered a good RPG, had 20 pirates for every 1 paying customer.

No matter how 'good' your product is the scum of the earth will try and justify breaking the law for it; if it's a bad product why would anyone pirate it in the first place?

you know what sony and the u.s. government have in common? they both use norton to try to prevent hacks

rapidoud:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

The ignorance from you is just... astounding.

You know ArmA 2, prior to the Day Z mod, had 100 illegitimate connection attempts for every 1 legitimate? The Witcher 2, considered a good RPG, had 20 pirates for every 1 paying customer.

No matter how 'good' your product is the scum of the earth will try and justify breaking the law for it; if it's a bad product why would anyone pirate it in the first place?

um dayZ is a mod that is free so pirating a mod is kinda moot. Also I have yet to see HARD DATA supporting witcher 2's claims of piracy. I don't doubt they got pirated, but I believe the information is skewed to try and make it look like pirates are running rampant.

ResonanceSD:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

Here in holland we sleep at the hours you guys comment but i will awnser anyway.

The jimqusition had a nice video about it. Poeple will be comfort for starters. i don't own or wanna own a creditcard or want to run to the shop to buy a PSN card every time. Give me ideal ( a dutch/german payment methode) to buy for playstation stuff online and i will. why? because it is easy.

Secondly the 50 bucks is a lot and i want to try out a game before playing. i would be more willing to buy a game if i like the demo of the game. but the don't make them anymore.

and finnaly as the makers of The Wicher pointed out. if support the people who buy your game the are less willingly to pirate it.

so people are willing to buy the game if the thing it offers more then the pirated copy and expecialy if it is easy to buy. the fact that a pirate game is free doesn't way up to the fact you have to constanly be on your toes to not get your consule permabanned.

rapidoud:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

The ignorance from you is just... astounding.

You know ArmA 2, prior to the Day Z mod, had 100 illegitimate connection attempts for every 1 legitimate? The Witcher 2, considered a good RPG, had 20 pirates for every 1 paying customer.

No matter how 'good' your product is the scum of the earth will try and justify breaking the law for it; if it's a bad product why would anyone pirate it in the first place?

its true you will always have people who will pirate for the sake of pirating. there isn't anything realy wrong with that because the wont buy it anyway, so no money lost nor gained. this is also the reason why bad games get pirated.

i would also like to see your data regarding your claims becuase i haven't found anything to support your claims. kinda strange from someone who claims to be astounded by my ignorance.

I am more amused by the fact you bring up The Wicher 2 yourself because it was the CEO who spoke out agianst the security updates and DRM. he said something along of the lines that piracy it self made them money by free publicity and that the don't see the massive loses of money other company's have claimed.

so to conclude: the people you call the scum of the earth won't harm your comanpy becuase the dont buy your product anyway. secondly you have no data to support your claims and the mentioned examples will tell something different about piracy then you believe.

P.S. for the source of my information on The Witcher 2 use the search function of TE to find the article

Captcha : Thinking cap how ironic.

So, does this mean you might finally be able to re-enable OtherOS on a Fat PS3?

Also I would say this is mission accomplished for Sony. It took until now for security measures on the PS3 to be totally cracked. That must be far longer than they anticipated.

Amusing that they could design such a secure piece of hardware and connect it to a network designed by themselves with effectively no security at all. You would think there would have been some degree of co-ordination.

GenGenners:
To those playing the "it's your property" card, I raise you the "you agreed to the TOS" and "developers don't get paid for pirated content" cards.

In all seriousness, I actually wouldn't mind if they kept it to themselves, because then it really is just affecting their own property. It's a shame a stupid money-grabbing group forced their hand.

TOS, like EULA can be ruled unconsionable. Basically, the layperson usually can't understand it, and the contract is too one-sided for consent to be seen as binding, and the consumer is not informed of all the terms of the terms prior to purchase, except in fine print on the back, and the terms are not elucidated at the time of transaction. They're bullshit. Some of them have been ruled worthless, and excluding the legality of the contract, it's a disgusting and amoral business practice to extort the customer in such a way.

Also, the developer includes in their TOS, the ability to update the TOS, and remove functionality, like the OtherOS system on the PS3. So they're already using blackmail in changing the TOS to force the users to accept their new terms, and take away features the users paid for.

At which point I feel, you get what you deserve when people start hacking your system and taking back what's theirs, and everything else besides.

ResonanceSD:

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

You can provide content easily which pirates aren't. Piracy isn't so easy, to the newcomer, and if you can avoid driving more casual users to piracy, then you can increase your revenue dramatically. For some titles, pirates are running 90% of the games, so if you can encourage just 1/9th of that, you'll double your profits. (I'm basically summarising a post from Shamus Young's blog, which I don't have time to find).

You'll never beat the pirate version for price, but you can beat it for convenience. You can add content on a regular basis through updates, which rewards the customer, and makes piracy more of a hassle to get the same quality game. You can reward users of your systems with previews of upcoming titles and discounts on them. Yes, this takes extra effort. But a minor bit of extra effort gives a large result: Whilst pirated versions are more common than bought versions, every successful conversion is worth more, comparitively.

There's no way to completely stop the pirates from getting it, and the extra stuff you offer. They can and will get their hands on anything you put out there. But if you make your version a little more enticing, and make piracy a hassle (By releasing new content etc, not by putting DRM on it), then users will be more inclined to buy your product. Whereas at the moment, if you want the simplest, best copy, piracy may be the best option, which is exactly what publishers don't want.

Crono1973:
Games going digital is irrelevant to ownership too, you can BUY something from Steam and still own it if consumers demand that. In other words, DD doesn't make ownership impossible. It just means that you own a product key which gives you access to the data. No different than owning a disc that gives you access to the data (ie, console games).

Actually in some countries that isn't the same.

Here in Denmark for example, we have something called the "consumption right" (or "right to consumption") which applies to physical products. Our lazy politians however, have never gotten off their arse and extended that to include digital products.

What this basically means is that my rights when buying digital goods are diminished, compared to if i purchase them physically. As a DJ, for example, the law permits me to play music from CD's or Vinyls or any other physical media. Digital DJ'ing with MP3/WAV/AAC files, however, actually require the permission from the rights holders to play. So i could theoretically get sued for playing an album i bought on iTunes, but not an album i bought in the local music store.

direkiller (and a bunch of other people):

My point is real market data shows people will pay when there are better perks attached to the normal game and buying the game is simply easier then pirating.

because if there is one thing you can count on it's peoples ability to be lazy

So:

1) Go to Torrent Site
2) Download Torrent
3) Install Game
4) Play Game

Is somehow harder/less convenient than:

1) Go to Store/Website
2) Input credentials
3) Buy Game
4a) Wait for game to be delivered (if Retail)
4b) Download installer (if Digital)
5) Install Game
6) Play Game

Loonyyy:
You can provide content easily which pirates aren't.

No you can't. That's the whole point of Piracy. Anything you make they can simply crack and release for free.

Andy Chalk:
Even so, it's apt proof that in the face of a truly determined adversary, no security measure is foolproof.

I didn't need this to tell me that. I've known that for a long time. No matter how secure you think your device or network is, with enough time and enough dedication it can be broken. The best you can hope for is to make it secure enough that anyone attempting to break it will get bored and give up.

Strazdas:

Tanis:
Hasn't the 360 and Wii been 'easily to hack', for like...ever now?

Never really saw NEAR the level of stories on TE when that was happening...

Maybe it's cause the PSP got so screwed by CFW?

Yes, PS3 is less popular by pirates because it is harder to hack and blueray discs cost A LOT. you can buy 10 dual layer dvds for the cost of 1 blueray disc.
then again this was only hard for people who didnt knew how ofc, but there are many such in the world.
what can i say, sony - 0, humanity - 1. locking users out of costum software should be criminal offence, but now its copyright.

Actualy, you are wrong. To hack PS3 you only need a USB drive. Piracy on PS3 does not use bluray discs, it uses the internal or external hardrives.

ikillu87:

CrossLOPER:
This "permanent rental" stuff is some stupid shit.

Its also the sad truth.

It is also the world we're moving into with downloadable content. Really, the only way to prevent a lot of it is by going to a brick and mortar store and buying a physical copy of the game, vs using convenient methods such as Steam/uhh... whatever EA calls their store/etc.

However, it can be useful for things outside software. As a photographer, owning my photo (even though one may purchase a copy) is one of my forms of income, I also choose to make sure they are never used in a political way. So... yeah, its a mixed bag.

Or I can just buy from GoG. Or lock down my Steam account into offline mode.

In any case, I'm pretty sure this will get straightened out eventually. I mean what are they going to do? Close the internet and bring us back to the late 80's? That would be retarded.

Fuck, does this mean they're going to close PSN for another 6 weeks? Because I was just starting to like Dust 514.

So let me get this straight to prevent a few people from using the Keys they decided to release the Keys to everyone?

Are The Three Tuskateers the same idiots that came up with the Mass Effect 3 ending?
Could they not follow this to it's logical conclusion and see how this would hurt way more than it helps?

I disagree that hackers hack for the challenge on the whole... maybe some do, but I think most of it equates to telling a 5 year old child not to do something.. they have to do it... maybe these hackers should stop messing with other peoples stuff and build/program their own equipment to do what they want...

I look forward to the day when the law actually starts doing things about these hackers... if i owned sony, there would be a few people getting paid (off the record, naturally) to ensure this stops... once a few of these hackers cant hack anymore due to having their fingers cut off, this BS would end right quick.

dont like how a system works, dont buy it. just stop screwing over us honest people who just wanna game....

Crono1973:

RJ 17:

Crono1973:

Then we agree on the only point I care to argue.

Fair enough. As I said: have a pleasant evening. :)

You too.

To avoid a low content warning:

I do think (and I don't want to argue this with anyone) that no one last gen even considered that they didn't own the games they bought. People should probably look back and figure out why they feel that way now. Figure out when and how they have been manipulated to give up ownership of games and hardware.

Pretty much this and why most things I own are modded aside from the 360 because of permabanning/bricking of said console. Our consumer rights are being stripped away one by one in favor of the said companies even if we don't do anything wrong. Sadly It's getting to the point where you don't own anything you buy anymore and with stricter drm already into play that forces you be online to play a single player game. Hell even those that buy legally are suffering while modders/hackers are having fun playing games... I miss having fun playing games doesn't everyone else?

Wado Rhyu:

its true you will always have people who will pirate for the sake of pirating. there isn't anything realy wrong with that because the wont buy it anyway, so no money lost nor gained. this is also the reason why bad games get pirated.

So what you are saying is, it's okay for someone to take your car out for a spin at night as long as they refill the gas tank, because hey, you weren't going to use it anyway.

My stance on the matter is that it's not the hacking that's the issue, it's the fact that people are inherently assholes and thus will abuse it. I'm not trying to take the moral high ground I'm not exempt from this, it's an intrinsic property of being human, the most absolute fact of life, people are assholes.

Aeshi:

direkiller (and a bunch of other people):

My point is real market data shows people will pay when there are better perks attached to the normal game and buying the game is simply easier then pirating.

because if there is one thing you can count on it's peoples ability to be lazy

So:

1) Go to Torrent Site
2) Download Torrent
3) Install Game
4) Play Game

Is somehow harder/less convenient than:

1) Go to Store/Website
2) Input credentials
3) Buy Game
4a) Wait for game to be delivered (if Retail)
4b) Download installer (if Digital)
5) Install Game
6) Play Game

It's more like
Go to store download and play(if it not your first time then yes credit card information needs to be entered)
games come pre loaded now so there is no install along with chat service multiplayer and quick downloads to outer computers

compared to a much slower download with a torrent and the need for virtual drivers and installing. Yes people will pay just to not deal with that.

and it shows for instance
Russia: Piracy rate dropped 21% from 2005

http://chartsbin.com/view/1188
http://portal.bsa.org/globalpiracy2011/

ThunderCavalier:
At this rate, Sony should just hire these hackers as full-on firmware developers or something.

They obviously know their way around the hardware more than the actual developers.

There is a major difference between hacking it and designing it from the ground up. And said hackers are not going to have better odds at making it secure.

Cecilthedarkknight_234:
Sadly It's getting to the point where you don't own anything you buy anymore

you never did. You own a licence to the game just like you always have. It's simply how Ip and copy rights work.

It's like saing macs don't get viruses.
Simply because it's a UNIX system and they call them malwhare

Just to show you:

because im a packrat
I just happen to have a game manual sitting around from Age of Empires in arms reach

"Except as expressly provided in any written license agreement from Microsoft, the furnishings of this document dose not give you any license to these patents, trademarks, copyrights, or outer intellectual property"
This is from 1997

Now for Starcraft II

The StarCraft II: Wings of liberty software program, and all files that are deliverd to you by Blizzared Entertainment, Inc to patch update, or othe wise(sic.) modify the software program, as well as all printed materials and electronic documentation, together with any and all copies and derivetive works of such software program and manual is copyrighted work of Blizzared Entertainment.

basically they are the same thing except the blizzard one is a bit wordier because it covers the mod tools aswell

So you can play the game but you cannot use our stuff for your own profit without there permission.

ResonanceSD:

Wado Rhyu:
more prove of the fact that sercurity updates wont work agianst pirates. better make your product worth buying instead of pirating.

That's such a cop out answer these days. The pirated version is free. What do you need to provide, as a new developer, to be able to beat that? People pirate INDIE games, for fucks sake, they aren't going to come over all moral because "WE NOW DECIDED THE PRODUCT WAS WORTH PAYING FOR ALL OF A SUDDEN BECAUSE REASONS, AND SUCH".

I bought the few games that I ever pirated on steam because it's super easy, super cool and has a convenient community to play with all my friends. So that does happen. My sample size is only in the tens but I know other people that the same has happened to. Not worth much in the grand scheme but it's evidence of a trend that should be considered.

Pirating as Demo and as Advertisement is a thing that happens. I don't have the research to tell you how much of it results in a purchase though so make of it what you will.